Paypal questions..

[oldguy00]

Hi all,
I've been using paypal for years, and knock on wood, have rarely had a problem of any kind.
Recently, I sold a high price item. I'm in Canada, and would need to ship it to the US.
Sale price was just north of 3k. Only odd thing about the sale was that it was a 'buy it now' price, but I had a 'make offer' option too. But the buyer just bought it at the buy it now price, kind of odd.
Anyway, the buyer has 400 feedback 100%.

My concern is that while investigating my shipping/insurance options, it has come to my attention that despite paypal claiming to offer seller protection (as long as I fully document the shipping, require signature, etc), all the buyer needs to do is claim they received an empty box, and paypal will automatically side with them and refund their money, and they also keep the goods you've sent.....
Do I have that right?!

[fkelly]

Could you clarify whether this is Paypal or EBAY? I know the two are joined at the hip and it appears you are selling through EBAY. It's just not clear from your post.

There's a lot of info about purchase protection if you just google the string "Paypal Ebay".

[tiretrax]

Document the packing and send it registered mail (video tape it getting packed and handed over at the shipping locaction). You might want to contact ebay or paypal and go over their seller protection policies. A friend had that happen on the sale of a cell phone - I think he ended up losing $50.

[oldguy00]

Could you clarify whether this is Paypal or EBAY? I know the two are joined at the hip and it appears you are selling through EBAY. It's just not clear from your post.

There's a lot of info about purchase protection if you just google the string "Paypal Ebay".

Yes, was a buy it now ebay auction.

Again, from everything I've read, I essentially have no protection if the buyer claims empty box, etc

[oldguy00]

Document the packing and send it registered mail (video tape it getting packed and handed over at the shipping locaction). You might want to contact ebay or paypal and go over their seller protection policies. A friend had that happen on the sale of a cell phone - I think he ended up losing $50.

I thought of that, but it still looks like paypal simply automatically sides with the buyer, and will either take the funds from you or put a lock on your account and then eventually take the funds, no matter what proof you give them.

[R3awak3n]

I never had to deal with a claim as a seller but it is known that eBay always sides with the buyer. However like people have said there are ways to protect yourself such as taking pictures of the package, ect and insuring it properly.

[oldguy00]

I never had to deal with a claim as a seller but it is known that eBay always sides with the buyer. However like people have said there are ways to protect yourself such as taking pictures of the package, ect and insuring it properly.

I figure I can:
-Pack it well
-Ship it via courier with tracking, insurance, and signature required
-Take pics of it in the box? Not sure if that will do any good, they could just claim I removed the item after taking pics...

Anything else I can really do??

[thegunner]

sometimes people BIN because they don't want to compete with others offers - maybe he just really wanted the item?

[oldguy00]

sometimes people BIN because they don't want to compete with others offers - maybe he just really wanted the item?

Quite possible. I guess I am just concerned as it is a high ticket item (3500 US), will cost just shy of $200 to ship, and I'm realizing that ebay/paypal offer me no real protection as a seller... :(

[kramnnim]

I had to file a "not as described" claim, and yes...I could have mailed back a box of rocks to the seller and I would have gotten my refund.

Maybe if you had some place like a UPS store (or equivalent) pack and ship the item you would at least have some kind of invoice indicating that they packed and shipped a [high dollar item].

[thegunner]

or maybe have the bike shop pack it / insure it?

[HenryA]

Call the buyer and talk to them about the transaction. Ask to be sure they will be there to sign for it, google the address and look at street view. Figure out if it's a vacant building in a run down part of town, but they claim to live there.

You are not dreaming, there is a good chance that you can get left in the cold. Do more now to avoid problems later. I've given up on selling on eBay because of this. Although last time a couple of years ago they did come through for me. But it was not a lot of money so the cost of them doing right was low. No way I'd ever sell anything of value beyond what I could walk away from. EBay has twisted the pre-existing rules of commerce up so much that the buyers have free reign to do as they wish and with not much chance of getting caught.

[zmudshark]

Take pictures of the item being packed, and insure at full value. No worries.

As far as BIN, I've had items that sold higher than the original BIN in an auction setting. People is funny.

[commonguy001]

or maybe have the bike shop pack it / insure it?

This
Ship it through a shop that way it's not just a he said he said as a business is involved and require a Signature.
I sold a higher dollar Rivendell a few years back to a kid in San Fran and had a local dealer (riv dealer at the time) who has/had a good online presents do the packaging and shipping. The buyer actually talked to the dealer at the time to verify condition. It went smooth and was a win for both of us.

If a buyer has 400+ in positive feedback I think you're probably worrying about nothing. Maybe call and talk to the buyer, it's a lot harder to talk a scam on the phone than doing it over email (not that this sounds like a scam).

In years past I've used BIN for some bigger price items and I actually just wanted what I bought.

I know none of this makes your selling 100% safe from Paypals buyer first protection but it may help you sleep a little better.

[Lewis Moon]

Photodocument everything. Insure. Ask for minimum feedback for the buyer. Ask that the buyer contact you prior to pushing BIN. Buyer must sign for the item. Track everything.

[sitzmark]

Quite possible. I guess I am just concerned as it is a high ticket item (3500 US), will cost just shy of $200 to ship, and I'm realizing that ebay/paypal offer me no real protection as a seller... :(

If you had the item priced "fairly", no real value in dickering over $50 for a serious buyer. Best offer usually brings low balls.

Kramnnim's suggestion for MBE (UPS Store) or Kinkos/FedEx pack and ship offers protection against false item claims, but UPS/FedEx weigh all packages and have that information on record. The buyer could claim you shipped something other than what he bought, but not a "box full of air" (unless the item is virtually weightless). To succeed with a claim of not as described or shipping damage the buyer needs to support that with photos of the item and packaging as received.

Pre-shipment, buyer feed back is a good place to start - not just the number of purchases, but the type of items purchased in the past. If he/she has been buying "baseball cards", etc. for $2 and yours is the only expensive item ever purchased, then further action on your part is advised.

[oldguy00]

If someone tries to pull a scam of some sort like this.....either claiming they received an empty box, or trying to return an item and sending an empty box back (because ebay refunds as soon as they get the tracking number I think)............at what point could law enforcement be involved?
An item worth over 3k, doesn't that mean someone is guilty of grand larceny?

[jr59]

If someone tries to pull a scam of some sort like this.....either claiming they received an empty box, or trying to return an item and sending an empty box back (because ebay refunds as soon as they get the tracking number I think)............at what point could law enforcement be involved?
An item worth over 3k, doesn't that mean someone is guilty of grand larceny?


Yes, but good luck proving it! All the things stated above will do you ZERO good if the buyer wants to cheat you. Then you will spend more money on a lawyer and will quickly find out that all those pics will not stand in a court of law.

Good luck, I have no advise, but that is a major reason I will NEVER use ebay or PP again.

Good luck

[thunderworks]

Your contents should weigh something. . . I'd take it to my local post office to purchase postage, even though it's more expensive than ebay postage. Have them weigh it and apply counter postage. If your buyer should claim "empty box", then a weight discrepancy should prove you at least shipped an item. It could be lost in shipment, but then the post office is in between you and the buyer and the shipped weight should help you make your argument.

[aramis]

You wanted to get $3500 (minus fees) for the frameset. I'm guessing locally you might have been able to get a couple grand if that for it if that. I would package it really well, make sure you pay for insurance and delivery confirmation if possible and say bon voyage.

I've sold stuff for a couple grand on ebay (car parts) and never had any issue.

[SoCalSteve]

Have a UPS or FedEx store pack it and ship it for you...done! No disputing that.

[oldguy00]

You wanted to get $3500 (minus fees) for the frameset. I'm guessing locally you might have been able to get a couple grand if that for it if that. I would package it really well, make sure you pay for insurance and delivery confirmation if possible and say bon voyage.

I've sold stuff for a couple grand on ebay (car parts) and never had any issue.

I posted the question here because I know a lot of folks here have lots of paypal experience. But no, it wasn't a frameset, it was a very cool, limited edition guitar. The package will definitely have weight, about 25 pounds. I'll be packing it, but I'll take it to their depot before I seal it, and ask them about their services in terms of officially 'packing' or 'inspecting' the contents before shipping...

[happycampyer]

I had a problem selling a camera body a few years back (buyer bid the body up to a very high price, and I'm fairly certain that once he received it he swapped a defective part and then insisted on a refund). After that experience, I have a local camera store with a ebay presence/store sell big-ticket camera items for me. I tell myself that the cut I pay to them is a bit of comfort that a scammer is less likely to try to take advantage of a professional seller.

Obviously, it's too late for that in this case. Have you had any communication with the buyer? The buyer's feedback rating seems positive, but I've found that good communication helps in getting a feel if a buyer is legitimate. I would ask a UPS store to pack (really, repack your packing job) and ship the item, insure it for the full amount and, if they will let you, see if you can take a video of them packing the guitar. If you are that concerned that the buyer is going to ask for a refund and send you an empty box, perhaps you could ask to send the guitar to a local music store? You would need to contact the store and explain what you are sending them, and see if they would be willing to receive it, etc. A bit of a longshot.

In the future, it might be better to sell locally where you can meet the buyer, or through a local shop (on consignment, etc.). Another option is finding a forum like this one for guitars/musical instruments and getting a feel for the classifieds, etc.

[brando]

You are right to be concerned about eBay/paypal policies and the risks you are assuming by using that system: 100% of the risk!

At this point, I would refund through paypal and ask the buyer to pay through an alternate method you are comfortable with. Even a certified check. If they are not comfortable sharing that risk, offer to cancel the transaction.

It's too much cash to trust to a company that is well known to be one-sided no matter what documentation you have and even if you're in the right you lose.

If the buyer blanches, you might have to suffer a neg.

I haven't sold on eBay in years since their policy changed. And I did have several buyers try to scam me, they lost, but I bet I'd lose today.

[pbarry]

I posted the question here because I know a lot of folks here have lots of paypal experience. But no, it wasn't a frameset, it was a very cool, limited edition guitar. The package will definitely have weight, about 25 pounds. I'll be packing it, but I'll take it to their depot before I seal it, and ask them about their services in terms of officially 'packing' or 'inspecting' the contents before shipping...

You're covering everything well on your end. Consider using a double box, one smaller than the other, with rigid styrofoam between the two boxes, (unless it's being shipped in a case).

Be sure to send the buyer a message and click on the "shipped" icon and post the tracking number after shipping. My best ebay transactions have been with the 300-400 100% positive buyers and sellers. They've been around long enough to understand the process, leave feedback, and still care about their reputations. All will be fine.

Edit: If you're really concerned, do a search on the buyer, and you'll probably find a very successful individual who has better things to do with their time than rip you off.

[velotrack]

Edit: If you're really concerned, do a search on the buyer, and you'll probably find a very successful individual who has better things to do with their time than rip you off.

You'd be surprised.

[aramis]

I posted the question here because I know a lot of folks here have lots of paypal experience. But no, it wasn't a frameset, it was a very cool, limited edition guitar. The package will definitely have weight, about 25 pounds. I'll be packing it, but I'll take it to their depot before I seal it, and ask them about their services in terms of officially 'packing' or 'inspecting' the contents before shipping...

The biggest concern I would have is with the safety of the package. So make sure you package it well. I would use a guitar case which I'm hoping you are already doing. If you can, do signature confirmation and put multiple labels in the package. Have full insurance.

I've sold hundreds of things on ebay. I've sent cell phones to Russia and Ukraine and $500 items to Japan and Estonia and the worst thing that happened was some lady from England who was pissed she had to pay customs on some coins. Ebay ended up refunding her some money. The money didn't come from me. I am quick to resolve any problems and always message people if there is any issue or concern though.

Oh wait I remember I had a motorcycle listed once and someone hijacked an ebay account to "buy" it and sent one of those totally fake cashiers checks and wanted the "difference refunded", that was hilarious. The guy "sent" the check from oregon but it had postmarks from England. I told him to FO and ebay refunded the fees they charged me.

[Dead Man]

They don't automatically refund the money- they put a hold on the money until the problem is cleared up. And they don't just decide it themselves - they talk to everyone involved and do an "investigation." The money is in limbo until a conclusion is came to. I'm not saying it's guaranteed to be justice... but it's more complicated than paypal simply automatically screwing their seller.

Best thing you can do is immediately pull money out once it hits your paypal account. Your account will go negative if they hold the money later, and you won't be able to buy or sell with paypal in the mean time, but it's better than leaving it for paypal to decide what to do with. The worst they can do is demand you re-deposit it, and the best you can do is say "f you," and lose access to paypal.

Frankly, if it ever came down to it, and it was pay $1500, $3000, whatever to paypal or lose my access to the system.... well, I think I'd be going back to money orders and snail mail.

No love.

[oldpotatoe]

I figure I can:
-Pack it well
-Ship it via courier with tracking, insurance, and signature required
-Take pics of it in the box? Not sure if that will do any good, they could just claim I removed the item after taking pics...

Anything else I can really do??

As has been mentioned, have FedEx or UPS pack it..to document that it really was in the box..other than taking it down there in person...maybe meet him 1/2 way or something..gotta trust somebody.

[ORMojo]

So, IMO, I was just screwed by eBay on a somewhat related set of circumstances.

Short version of the story is I sold a brand new $1,500 frameset (listed here for over a year first!). Buyer has 100% positive feedback, and lots of it. Nearly a month passes after the buyer received it, and he files an "item not as described" claim.

What were the details of the claim? He didn't know how to properly install the headset and assemble the frame & fork. He even claimed he spent $100 to have a shop attempt the assembly, but "they couldn't figure it out."

EBay sides with the buyer, of course, and frameset is returned to me . . . damaged.

I file an appeal, and just minutes ago it comes back denied, because, get this:

"- You received your item back in a manner different from the way you sent it originally and this is considered an offense outside of eBay's policy or control.
·
In this case the buyer had taken the bike to a shop for some trouble shooting. An now you believe that the shop has damaged this bike. ·Because there was a third party in this situation we advise that you take your concern up with them."

So, what, a buyer can have anybody other than themselves do whatever they want to an item, and that voids any ebay protection for the seller? Wow!

[Johnny Alien]

I was given a similar response from them on the phone before. I asked them what happens if the buyer sends back something different or just a weighted box? They told me that I could take that situation to the police to resolve. Their policy is an automatic credit back as soon as the package is shown to be returned via tracking.

[oldguy00]

I wonder what happens if you remove your bank and/or credit card account info from paypal after the initial transaction. Would they have any way to then take money from you?

[Johnny Alien]

I wonder what happens if you remove your bank and/or credit card account info from paypal after the initial transaction. Would they have any way to then take money from you?

Not directly. They will eventually refer it to a collection agency just like if you stopped paying bills for any other company.

[jr59]

Not directly. They will eventually refer it to a collection agency just like if you stopped paying bills for any other company.

I'm somewhat sure that this happens in most cases, but if the amount is great enough, look to hear from their legal dept.

[kramnnim]

So, IMO, I was just screwed by eBay on a somewhat related set of circumstances.

Short version of the story is I sold a brand new $1,500 frameset (listed here for over a year first!). Buyer has 100% positive feedback, and lots of it. Nearly a month passes after the buyer received it, and he files an "item not as described" claim.

What were the details of the claim? He didn't know how to properly install the headset and assemble the frame & fork. He even claimed he spent $100 to have a shop attempt the assembly, but "they couldn't figure it out."

EBay sides with the buyer, of course, and frameset is returned to me . . . damaged.

I file an appeal, and just minutes ago it comes back denied, because, get this:

"- You received your item back in a manner different from the way you sent it originally and this is considered an offense outside of eBay's policy or control.
·
In this case the buyer had taken the bike to a shop for some trouble shooting. An now you believe that the shop has damaged this bike. ·Because there was a third party in this situation we advise that you take your concern up with them."

So, what, a buyer can have anybody other than themselves do whatever they want to an item, and that voids any ebay protection for the seller? Wow!

...dang, what a horror story. :eek: Hope it's not a total loss for you.