Zipp 303 Opinions

[bcroslin]

I'm looking at a barely used set of '13 Zipp 303 Firecrest carbon clinchers for $1500. I'm riding a set of Shimano C-24's but they're about to go on my CX bike for the season so I need another set of wheels and I'd like something aero. The Zipp's are a little more than I want to spend but I really like the look of them and I've read nothing but positive things about them.

Does anyone here have any experience with the 303's? I've heard some grumbling from a few people I know who ride Zipps that their hubs aren't the greatest - any confirmed issues? Are there other similar new wheel sets I should be looking at instead?

[pinoymamba]

the 188 hub can develop some play. i had a little bit of play but i just replaced the bearing and tightened the cap. i had 808s, 404s, and 101s. they are awesome wheels but i would never pay retail for them. i currently still use the 101s to ride and race on.

with swiss stop black prince pads the carbon clincher stopped better than i thought they would. i'm about 175 lbs. i never had issues with over heating the brake track but then again i don't ride the brakes going downhill. i don't have experience with them in the rain.

[weaponsgrade]

I have the tubular version and really like them. I think the hub problems were mainly earlier versions. They handle great in cross winds and spin up easy. Braking in dry weather is pretty close to alloy rims. Braking in wet not so good. I recently rode them on the death ride and had no issues.

[Shin Getter]

I have a pair of 303 and 404 in the tubular versions. The front and rear hubs both have a bit of play...but I've read that its "normal" to have that slight play in the hubs.

I've had my 404's since 2012...and so far...I've had no issues.

[Climb01742]

Pezcycling did a very thorough review. Might be worth googling it.

[shovelhd]

I have a set of 2013 606's that I bought here on the forum. I'm not happy with the hub play but it seems to be systemic, they all have it. These wheels are about 27mm wide. Make sure they will fit your frame and that the brakes will reach. If you swap wheels and your other set are narrow then you'll have to go through the brake adjustment dance. Keep that in mind if you race.

[bcroslin]

I have a set of 2013 606's that I bought here on the forum. I'm not happy with the hub play but it seems to be systemic, they all have it. These wheels are about 27mm wide. Make sure they will fit your frame and that the brakes will reach. If you swap wheels and your other set are narrow then you'll have to go through the brake adjustment dance. Keep that in mind if you race.

That's something I didn't think about. My Felt F1 won't accommodate a 25mm tire in the rear. I'm guessing a 303 will be a no go.

[shovelhd]

It's not the 303, it's the Firecrest. Check and measure first. I have a 2013 Felt Fc and they fit fine. 7900 calipers also work fine.

[sitzmark]

When in 2013 matters.

Around late September 2013 Version 9 (V9) hubs were released and started showing up in the distribution network. Some significant changes (improvements) with the V9 188 hub. Wider flange, larger bearings, 2x lacing both sides (rather than drive or non-drive radial), and 24 spokes. Spoke count not an issue with 303 as almost all versions of 303 have 24+ rear hubs, but V9 lacing is much better. Latest version is V10.

I own 5 sets of 82/182 and 108/208 wheels. Never any problems - just not to be ridden in heavy wet conditions or bearing replacement is almost a given. There is basically zero sealing with these hubs. Starting with the 88/188 series, improved weather sealing was introduced, and the end cap is "backed off" to allow some play which gets absorbed under load. Various versions worked toward a system that would preload the bearings properly without allowing too much play to develop during use.

You do need to get out your calipers and measure for 303 clearance. 303s have the widest profile.

[firerescuefin]

I have a set of 2013 606's that I bought here on the forum. I'm not happy with the hub play but it seems to be systemic, they all have it. These wheels are about 27mm wide. Make sure they will fit your frame and that the brakes will reach. If you swap wheels and your other set are narrow then you'll have to go through the brake adjustment dance. Keep that in mind if you race.

I just don't get this. Zipp have had problematic hubs since the beginning of time. How hard is it to put together a solid race hub. I've owned my last set of Zipps (have owned 2 pairs)...just too many other options out there, especially when you can have someone like Eric (Ergott) or a myriad of other talented wheel builders build something to suit that's not going to give you issues.

[thegunner]

they make nice rims. if you could somehow get your hands on a pair laced to chris kings, tunes, dt's... then without a doubt that's a nice wheelset :)

[shovelhd]

they make nice rims. if you could somehow get your hands on a pair laced to chris kings, tunes, dt's... then without a doubt that's a nice wheelset :)

Yup.

[chiasticon]

i personally wouldn't recommend zipps, simply because i know of too many people that have had issues with them. primarily with the hubs. i also find it hard to believe a wheel company would design a hub based around radial lacing on the driveside, but i digress...

i'm happy with my november rail 52's. but i wasn't so stoked on the build quality at first; they were a bit wobbly and the braking was incredibly noisy because of it. i had to do a lot of truing on my own to get them to quiet down. the rims, hubs and spokes are all excellent though; they just needed a little TLC. so i'd recommend having someone like ergott build them instead of november, should you go that route.

but those are clinchers. if you want tubs, you may want to check out boyd. i have a pair of his alloy vitesse wheels and they've been basically bombproof for me, through a lot of harsh miles.

one benefit of using either november or boyd is that they'll be brand new wheels with a warranty on build and materials. the 2013 zipps you're looking at might not, specially since they're used.

[John H.]

I had a set of Zipp 303 Firecrest for 10 speed.
The hub I had could not be upgraded to 11 speed.
I had a local wheel whiz rebuild the rear with a DT 11 speed hub.
I could not be happier with this wheelset.

[bcroslin]

I've heard enough. I'm going to pass on them and keep looking. I frequently ride in wet conditions so I don't feel too confident about the hubs.

Thanks everyone.

[rnhood]

Why don't you look at the C35 or C50 wheels? Finding better wheels than Shimano DA is like finding the needle in a haystack.

[John H.]

You say that you ride in wet conditions- I would stay away from carbon wheels in wet conditions.
I would also stay away from Shimano hubs for wet conditions.
Don't get me wrong, Shimano hubs are excellent.
Just that they are not sealed bearings so if you miss necessary maintenance you can ruin the hubs.
For sealed bearings you can pop a new one in.

Why don't you look at the C35 or C50 wheels? Finding better wheels than Shimano DA is like finding the needle in a haystack.

[bcroslin]

Why don't you look at the C35 or C50 wheels? Finding better wheels than Shimano DA is like finding the needle in a haystack.

I'm actually interested in DA 35's but I'd rather not run tubulars. There's just too much crap in the road here. If I run Caffelatex sealant would that work for minor punctures like Stans does in mtb tires?

[firerescuefin]

I'm actually interested in DA 35's but I'd rather not run tubulars. There's just too much crap in the road here. If I run Caffelatex sealant would that work for minor punctures like Stans does in mtb tires?

What I started doing 3 years ago....and happily haven't looked back.

[bcroslin]

You say that you ride in wet conditions- I would stay away from carbon wheels in wet conditions.
I would also stay away from Shimano hubs for wet conditions.
Don't get me wrong, Shimano hubs are excellent.
Just that they are not sealed bearings so if you miss necessary maintenance you can ruin the hubs.
For sealed bearings you can pop a new one in.

Good to know. My bike is in the shop right now having the BB replaced due to how much rain we've had here recently. I'll have the wrench check the bearings in my C-24's while he's at it.

[bcroslin]

What I started doing 3 years ago....and happily haven't looked back.

Hmmmm, that opens up some options for me. A good friend of mine builds wheels and he's been importing 50mm china carbons that he swears by but they're tubies. He'll build a set of wheels for me for under $700 including Miche Prima hubs.

[rnhood]

No, get the C35 clinchers. Don't bother with sealant, expensive tires, stretching and gluing, etc. Make life easy, get the C35 Clinchers.

[Charles M]

I'm looking at a barely used set of '13 Zipp 303 Firecrest carbon clinchers for $1500. I'm riding a set of Shimano C-24's but they're about to go on my CX bike for the season so I need another set of wheels and I'd like something aero. The Zipp's are a little more than I want to spend but I really like the look of them and I've read nothing but positive things about them.

Does anyone here have any experience with the 303's? I've heard some grumbling from a few people I know who ride Zipps that their hubs aren't the greatest - any confirmed issues? Are there other similar new wheel sets I should be looking at instead?


You haven't heard virtually anyone on the latest edition hubs grumbling. For the most part you hear rehashing of old posts that don't take into consideration that there have been 10 substantial design changes to the hubs in the last 5 years...

The braking surface for the Zipps is also a long way ahead of most of the industry and has been for the last 2 years.

[firerescuefin]

there have been 10 substantial design changes to the hubs in the last 5 years...

...and Charles...you don't think that's a problem.

Many on here don't have the coin/capability of turning over equipment like you do. They have had a history of hub issues. I can't give an assessment of the umpteenth iteration of hub they are now producing, but I spent my bike money on their products in the past and have been left wanting. You're an industry guy. Is building a good hub so difficult. Quite a few companies aren't reinventing the wheel (or the hub in this case) every year, nor do they have the reputation of these hubs.

I have Enve 6.7s laced to WI hubs that frankly I don't have to think about them...pretty much ever. That is the definition of a good wheelset.

[rnhood]

Local shop here just took a high soot Look in for service, and his Enve 3.4 rear wheel brake track is starting to delaminate.

Get the Zipps if you must have carbon. Hub problems (if they even exist anymore) are easier to deal with than delaminated brake tracks.

But I still favor metal rims.

[firerescuefin]

I've seen you reference this "instance" in another post, when you basically inferred that the November product was superior to the Enve. These wheels don't have a reputation for doing this and Enve's customer service is second to none. Are you aware of a systemic problem. My 6.7s get ridden hard...and in all conditions and haven't even blinked...and my exchanges with a myriad of riders is that their experiences have been the same....not to mention the folks on this board.

So you're recommending Zipp over Enve based on what exactly.


Local shop here just took a high soot Look in for service, and his Enve 3.4 rear wheel brake track is starting to delaminate.

Get the Zipps if you must have carbon. Hub problems (if they even exist anymore) are easier to deal with than delaminated brake tracks.

But I still favor metal rims.

[Charles M]

...and Charles...you don't think that's a problem.



Unlike Most all other wheel guys, Zipp can make changes on the fly and go immediately to production because they design, test and manufacture right in Indi (for all but their entry level wheel).

Most all other manufacturers dont make their hubs at all. The majority of the ones that are branded with the house brand are not made by the manufacturer but contracted out.



No... I don't think it's anywhere near the issue it's made out to be and certainly no place near the more valid issues that are a few years old.

[thegunner]

Unlike Most all other wheel guys, Zipp can make changes on the fly and go immediately to production because they design, test and manufacture right in Indi (for all but their entry level wheel).

Most all other manufacturers dont make their hubs at all. The majority of the ones that are branded with the house brand are not made by the manufacturer but contracted out.



No... I don't think it's anywhere near the issue it's made out to be and certainly no place near the more valid issues that are a few years old.

i think the point is, yes - zipp can get their designs into production way faster than other companies, but do you honestly expect the consumer to adopt that same product release cycle for their purchasing cycle? that's absurd, most people buy a set of wheels and use them for 3+ years, during which time zipp has re-invented their hubs... how many times?

if they weren't confident in their design, they should've just outsourced their hub design like reynolds did.

[bcroslin]

I asked about the hub issues because I know anecdotally of several people who've had hub issues with their Zipps. One person I know that I ride with I know when it's time for him to replace his rear hub bearings because of the terrible noise it makes.

The late 2013 and new 2014 hubs may be great but I was looking at a set of early 2013's. I'm going to pick up a set of WI hubs and have my friend build a set if wheels for me. It's too wet in FL to worry about having to rebuild hubs after every rain storm.

[beeatnik]

http://www.wheelbuilder.com/custom-zipp-303-firecrest-front-wheel.html

Chris King, White Industries, DT Swiss and CycleOps are hub options.

IIRC, Wheelbuilder is one of the few companies that Zipp supplies with hoops for custom builds.

[Climb01742]

http://www.wheelbuilder.com/custom-zipp-303-firecrest-front-wheel.html

Chris King, White Industries, DT Swiss and CycleOps are hub options.

IIRC, Wheelbuilder is one of the few companies that Zipp supplies with hoops for custom builds.

Seems like a great option. Does wheelbuilder.com have a good reputation?

[beeatnik]

Most of the guys on my training rides who ride carbon wheels exclusively (never rains here) used Wheelbuilder. Haven't heard any complaints. One prominent racer trains on 303s with R45s and probably puts 15-20,000K on them yearly. I see him almost daily and his wheels are hard to miss since they have the Mango hubs.

[sitzmark]

i think the point is, yes - zipp can get their designs into production way faster than other companies, but do you honestly expect the consumer to adopt that same product release cycle for their purchasing cycle? that's absurd, most people buy a set of wheels and use them for 3+ years, during which time zipp has re-invented their hubs... how many times?

if they weren't confident in their design, they should've just outsourced their hub design like reynolds did.

Hardly "re-inventions". Incremental updates at best for the 88/188 series and even those were modifications of 82/182 and 108/208 designs. None of Zipp's changes left anyone with obsolete, unsupported 88/188 series hubs and that dates back to wheels manufactured in 2008. Even the older 82/182 and 108/208 hubs are still easily maintained, which date back to mid-2000's.

The changes started with a larger axle diameter and corresponding bearing changes. A couple of end cap revisions were included and an effort to seal the bearings better (which added some rotating friction the Tri crowd didn't like). A couple of minor revisions with flange geometry and asymmetry for marginal gains in stiffness. Then updates to accommodate 11-speed by Campy and again for Shimano/Sram. Finally (V9) a move away from the industry practice to shave weight with less spokes and radial lacing. I never liked the idea of a 20-spoke rear wheel with radial lacing on either side, but it worked reasonably well. At least few that I know have had real issues with them. I stayed with 24+ spoke versions and alu brake tracks for braking and swapability reasons.

For the average citizen racer/ enthusiast, the changes have been "window dressing". The changes were made to keep innovating for the Tri and elite level athletes looking for fractions of seconds and infinitesimally small performance gains. Mostly greater "stiffness". No one needed to update to have a functional wheelset.

I have somewhere between 15 and 20 thousand miles on my Zipp wheelsets, and the only issues I've had with mine were getting caught in two monsoons during century rides when 3-4 inches of water was rushing down and across the streets. ...think crosswinds are bad ... try cross currents! :eek: Rather than wait out the storms we pressed on for a couple of hours in downpour before it stopped. I had to change bearings after both rides. Expected. Day one of Ride the Rockies this year we rode through rain (modest), hail, and a snow blizzard from Empire to the top of Berthoud Pass. No bearing changes needed.

I don't doubt that with all the Zipp wheelsets sold, there weren't some people who had problems. However, I had none to them and most of those I know with Zipps had none of them. I did double-check the bearing pre-load after having a local (well respected) LBS service one of my wheelsets and they backed off the cap as instructed for the 88/188 series. That would have trashed my 82/182 assembly. I suspect more than a few LBS snugged the 88/188s tight as was the design for the 82/182s and trashed those in the same manner.

I think Charles is right - after discounting all the friend-of-a-friend recounts and counter-culture Zipp-o-phobe tales, the actual late model Zipp problems are very small as a percentage of sales. My opinion based on personal experience ... could be wrong. I'm not blindly defending Zipp - they've just been a (functional) wheelset for me. If anyone doesn't like their V9 hub, I'll buy it.

[ShaneAtSilca]

I think Charles is right - after discounting all the friend-of-a-friend recounts and counter-culture Zipp-o-phobe tales, the actual late model Zipp problems are very small as a percentage of sales. My opinion based on personal experience ... could be wrong. I'm not blindly defending Zipp - they've just been a (functional) wheelset for me. If anyone doesn't like their V9 hub, I'll buy it.

+1

And someone said something about non-branded carbon from china: Scary.