OT: NASCAR and Tony Stewart

[Louis]

OK, someone had to bring this up, and I guess it's going to be me.

What, if anything, will happen to "Smoke?"

I'm guessing not much.

(Don't watch the video if you're squeamish about stuff like this, but it isn't a Joe Theismann type of image.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mtlTJAWFyRY

[FlashUNC]

As long as circle track racing -- grassroots on up -- encourages these kinds of track scuffles, then this kind of thing was inevitable at some point.

Tough to say what happens. Does it all really come down to intent?

[Louis]

Does it all really come down to intent?

In a court of law, probably. But they'll never be able to prove it, so I doubt anything will happen in the courts, even if the kid's family sues Stewart.

[FlashUNC]

Most compelling argument I've seen is Tony intended to rooster-tail the guy, and instead, well, ran him over.

Or he could have just wanted to run the guy over. Impossible to say really.

I have to wonder if this forces NASCAR to change their policy about NASCAR driving participating in non-Sprint Cup events...

[chuckroast]

I doubt if there's any criminal charges but I would guess a financial settlement is in the cards.

[firerescuefin]

My family was heavily involved in racing sprint cars for over 20 years. I've watched that video about 30 times today. The incident that led to the altercation was an ordinary racing accident. I was very surprised at the drivers reaction. He was 100% in the wrong to be where he was when he exited the car and made his way into the racing line...period. It does not matter that they were under yellow. This behavior is gone over, discouraged, and prohibited in the mandatory driver's meetings that take place before every race. These cars under yellow flag conditions are still moving pretty quick. You cannot read intent by/into Stewart's actions. The car in front of Stewart veers just as he punches/blips the throttle (also normal behavior under yellow). There would be no reason for Stewart to expect that driver to be where he was.

It was a tragic accident that was 100% preventable.

I'll add that 2 way radio comms between driver and spotter are prohibited in Sprint Cars.

[Louis]

I was very surprised at the drivers reaction. He was 100% in the wrong to be where he was when he exited the car and made his way into the racing line...period.

Adrenalin and testosterone, I suppose. A totally stupid thing to do, but if he survives he becomes a hero to many. His bad-boy image is one of the things that originally made Stewart popular (and his skill).

[dekindy]

He did not see him, period, end of story. He was standing in the middle of the track wearing a black racing suit. How could anyone possibly think Tony Stewart did this on purpose? Please explain.

[FlashUNC]

He did not see him, period, end of story. He was standing in the middle of the track wearing a black racing suit. How could anyone possibly think Tony Stewart did this on purpose? Please explain.

He's got a reputation as a hot head?

[Louis]

Please explain.

I'm no expert on this, but some folks are saying that the TS throttle blip is incriminating.

[firerescuefin]

I'm no expert on this, but some folks are saying that the TS throttle blip is incriminating.

I was not there. I have no idea what was going on in Tony's mind. But blipping the throttle under yellow in a sprint car is about as common as you breathing. Tony has a reputation of being a hothead, but also has a reputation as being a racer's racer, and is one of the most ardent supporters of grass roots circle track racing there is....period. He owns Sprint car and Midget teams as well as his own race track (Eldora Speedway). Nothing in Tony's history points to running down a guy in a Sprint car. As I said before the guy running into the racing line while under yellow (with cars still taking the yellow and slowing down) is as dumb as it gets.

I'll add that the incident was a normal racing incident. Not much for Tony to be hot about.

[steelbikerider]

The throttle blip can be an issue - I think it could even bring up negligent homocide issues. No - Ward should not have left his car but "if" Smoke revved his engine and the tires broke loose causing a swerve, then Tony's behavior is a contributing factor. It is a big problem for NASCAR.

TS hasn't been the same since the sprint car accident last year. He's running mid-pack, not "racing" and complaining a lot about the younger drivers being too aggressive and not respecting the established drivers. I wouldn't say he's afraid but he may have reached the point where he's not willing to take too big a chance to get position in the next corner. Many drivers get that way when they get to their mid 40's(Elliot, Martin, Labonte, Jarret and others). In addition, he has team competitiveness issues and ownership responsibilities too.

I predict a long double secret probation period, big financial settlements and Tony retiring from full time driver status soon to avoid a messy legal situation.

[fuzzalow]

I saw the clip as CNN broacast it. It looked like a common racing incident where the car trying to overtake on the outside gets pushed wide and runs out of track on corner exit. Usually unless the overtaking car is advanced deep enough that the front wheels are about even with the front wheels of lead car, a trailing driver cannot expect the lead car to compromise his exit speed by continuing to give room to the car behind. And the trailing driver knows this and either backs off or continues to get pushed wide until he falls off. Front wheels even with the back wheels or amidships to the lead car is not a pass. Nobody in racing will just let somebody through like that.

The killed driver wandered back onto a hot track! Anything but a red flag with all cars paddocked is still a hot track. The replay looked like the driver was angry in gesticulating towards Stewart's car as Stewart came around the next lap. That was a stupid enough mistake to pay with in a fatality. I have respect for the dead but no remorse for stupidity. There is no place for rash, unrestrained emotion in a race car. Every driver respects speed and its dangers and it is unthinkable that a driver would purposely run down another driver while on foot!

[firerescuefin]

Stewart's team's cars (SHR) have all underperformed this year. This is a bigger issue than a declining skill set.

We'll have to disagree about the blipping the throttle. Guy is in a prohibited space walking into the racing line and the driver in front of Stewart swerves to avoid him. Stewart blips the throttle, sees Ward and is trying to move away from him as Ward is moving down the track.

Stewart is going nowhere. I won't say a settlement won't happen, but if it does it's out of the goodness of Tony's heart.


The throttle blip can be an issue - I think it could even bring up negligent homocide issues. No - Ward should not have left his car but "if" Smoke revved his engine and the tires broke loose causing a swerve, then Tony's behavior is a contributing factor. It is a big problem for NASCAR.

TS hasn't been the same since the sprint car accident last year. He's running mid-pack, not "racing" and complaining a lot about the younger drivers being too aggressive and not respecting the established drivers. I wouldn't say he's afraid but he may have reached the point where he's not willing to take too big a chance to get position in the next corner. Many drivers get that way when they get to their mid 40's(Elliot, Martin, Labonte, Jarret and others). In addition, he has team competitiveness issues and ownership responsibilities too.

I predict a long double secret probation period, big financial settlements and Tony retiring from full time driver status soon to avoid a messy legal situation.

[thirdgenbird]

I live right between Oskaloosa (Front Row Challenge where tony broke his leg) and Knoxville (Nationals and sprint car hall of fame)

I'm guessing I will hear a lot of opinions at the office tomorrow.

[firerescuefin]

I'll finish by saying this.

I don't see the smoking gun....and I've been to hundreds (literally) of such races.

.....and I don't want to believe that this was a deliberate act.

Very sad.

[Rada]

I was not there. I have no idea what was going on in Tony's mind. But blipping the throttle under yellow in a sprint car is about as common as you breathing. Tony has a reputation of being a hothead, but also has a reputation as being a racer's racer, and is one of the most ardent supporters of grass roots circle track racing there is....period. He owns Sprint car and Midget teams as well as his own race track (Eldora Speedway). Nothing in Tony's history points to running down a guy in a Sprint car. As I said before the guy running into the racing line while under yellow (with cars still taking the yellow and slowing down) is as dumb as it gets.

I'll add that the incident was a normal racing incident. Not much for Tony to be hot about.

Is blipping the throttle when you're coming up to a stopped vehicle on the track common? The kid made a really unfortunate decision and I don't know what TS's intentions were, but there is an appearance that he may have made an unfortunate decision as well.

[thirdgenbird]

Is blipping the throttle when you're coming up to a stopped vehicle on the track common? The kid made a really unfortunate decision and I don't know what TS's intentions were, but there is an appearance that he may have made an unfortunate decision as well.

These cars have a spool rear end, different diameter tires on the left vs right, and an unbalanced suspension setup. You turn them with the throttle.

I don't know what he way trying to do, or what he saw, but the blip doesn't seem abnormal by itself.

[firerescuefin]

Is blipping the throttle when you're coming up to a stopped vehicle on the track common? The kid made a really unfortunate decision and I don't know what TS's intentions were, but there is an appearance that he may have made an unfortunate decision as well.

The track is pretty big. The car is out of the racing line against the fence. Cars are circling the track under yellow. A red flag would bring all the cars to a stop. They are not going appreciably slower around a car that is against the fence than they are around the rest of the track unless the safety crews or tow truck is out to get the car then a local flagman will provide additional guidance. I've seen guys run to the infield and point...or throw something at a car as it passes numerous times. I've seen the cars pass the guys fairly close. This was a really bad situation that evolved pretty quickly. The vision out of these cars with the top and front wing is somewhat limited and vision out the side is pretty much non existent, because the cars are designed so that wheels will not enter the cockpit are. No radio communication with a spotter, a car in front of you veering at the last moment, and a guy walking into the line when you don't expect to see him adds up to a bad situation.

[saab2000]

The victim walked into the path of a fast moving race car, knowing the rules. I doubt very much there was any intent on the part of TS. This was a young driver with intent to show up a 'name' driver and he paid the ultimate price. It is tragic but the talk of criminal intent is absurd.

This is very little different than a bad blow in an NFL/NHL/NBA game resulting in a death, which would hardly be a long-shot. Those sports are played at the edge of performance and emotion and a bad blow at an inopportune time could easily be tragic

What if a cyclist swerved from his/her line in the heat of a mass sprint and took out another rider, resulting in a fatal accident? That's hardly a long shot. It's a tragedy but we have to accept risk in sport.

If the driver had not walked onto the track, against all rules and against all common sense, this never would have happened.

I say all this with all respect to the victim. But it was a totally avoidable tragedy. Professional sports can be dangerous, especially if someone crosses lines of common sense.

[firerescuefin]

I've watched that video another 20-30 times, and I don't think the rev of the engine you hear is Stewarts, but another guy closer to the camera. Stewart's car doesn't kick right (up the hill of the track) until he's clipped Ward and the physics of Wards body going under the rear kicking the car to the right.

[Rada]

I don't disagree at all that the driver made a really stupid choice that cost him his life. They need to start suspending drivers a year or two for doing this. The link to the accident provided by the OP is oddly a bit different than the one I first saw. That version has the sound of the blip just before TS is in the frame and it looks like he is going up the track with the kid diving away before being struck. With the link provided you hear the blip as he is pretty much already on the kid. That version does not look as bad for TS to me.

[RacerJRP]

I have never been a TS fan, infact I generally dislike the guy, but I see no argument against him in this matter. The last thing in Tony's mind coming around that corner under yellow was that there would be a person in an all black race suit running towards him. The car in front of him had to make a last second move to avoid as well. Farther from that would be inflicting physical harm to a fellow racer using his own vehicle.


It is terribly sad, but the kid took his own life. Of course this is just my oppinion having spent 10+ years racing cars.

[Rada]

I've watched that video another 20-30 times, and I don't think the rev of the engine you hear is Stewarts, but another guy closer to the camera. Stewart's car doesn't kick right (up the hill of the track) until he's clipped Ward and the physics of Wards body going under the rear kicking the car to the right.

That could well be.

[etu]

it will be interesting to see how tony stewart is treated by the rest of the NASCAR community after this incident. i wouldn't expect anyone to necessarily come out and openly condemn him, but i could see him being ostracized in a more subtle way if a significant segment of his peers believe there was malicious intent that caused the accident even if was to just scare ward.

[thirdgenbird]

All I can say for sure, I wouldn't want anyone on or near the track if I was piloting a 900hp car on dirt.

Edit:maybe it was less, I wasn't paying attention if it was a 360 or 410 but either way...

[spartanKid]

It really should be a punishable offense to get out of your car in a wreck unless you're on fire.

[rustychisel]

It really should be a punishable offense to get out of your car in a wreck unless you're on fire.

Well, as it happens, sadly it just was.

I append no blame from the video I saw to TS

[Louis]

It really should be a punishable offense to get out of your car in a wreck unless you're on fire.

Perhaps, but it's a lot like hockey - fans love the conflict and the fisticuffs.

[oliver1850]

Some fans anyway. I get your point though. NASCAR has led the way with the focus on pit lane skirmishes, helmet throwing, car-to-car retaliation etc. There was a time when this sort of thing was rare in motorsports. Now it's part of the show. I would include Polish Victory Laps, donuts, and burnouts as things we could do without. There was a really ugly motorcycle crash a number of years ago where the winner was doing his post race burnout and got collected by someone that was still racing (for 10th place?).

So: big fines/loss of points/whatever it takes to discourage this type of stuff are in order.

Only Tony Stewart knows whether he saw Ward, or gunned the throttle to intimidate him. It's sad either way.

[maunahaole]

I'm not a follower of nascar.

That said, I'm predisposed not to like Tony Stewart.

First point is that his underperformance in races may be due to him carrying fifty extra pounds compared to his competition. There is not a lot more weight to be take out of those cars or much more hp to be extracted. As an example, Carl Edwards is going to have a better power to weight. Yes, I'm saying TS is fat. Drop weight, it will make a difference. Do the math.

I have watched the video once. The first car through goes very slowly. Tony's car comes through faster and sideways. If you are holding yourselves out as highly skilled drivers, you can choose to put the car where you please. My take is that Tony has some explaining to do and that this will not go well for him. Not sure if I would want to get on the track with him at this point.

[A1CKot]

Anyone else see the slow moving car on the inside of the track? The video doesn't show enough of the picture to make a definitive judgment. Maybe TS was watching the slow car he was passing and didn't even see the driver on the track. Sad though.

It is really amazing how few safety cars happen in F1 or even LMS. A lot of the times you will see a brief local yellow and a marshal run out an pick up so debris off the racing line. Or a car and a lifter on the race track removing a stranded car. I guess its just a different environment than this type of racing.

[cfox]

Perhaps, but it's a lot like hockey - fans love the conflict and the fisticuffs.

This is exactly it. It's similar to a baseball manager arguing with an ump; he knows it won't accomplish anything, but he has to show his team he has their back. In racing, you get punted, you get out and make a big show to let everyone know you're tough and that is was the other guy's fault.

I hate that aspect of racing. If you crash, the safest place to be until help arrives is in your car. If you fear a fire, get out and get to the wall. Anything else should be a mandatory season suspension. I hope something like that comes out of this young man's death.

Firerescuefin is right; I've sat in a sprint car, you can't see a damn thing out of those things. Add to that the fog of night, dust, and lots of big wide race cars and you have a place you really, really don't want to walk around on.

[soulspinner]

These cars have a spool rear end, different diameter tires on the left vs right, and an unbalanced suspension setup. You turn them with the throttle.

I don't know what he way trying to do, or what he saw, but the blip doesn't seem abnormal by itself.

This. I have already gotten into a facebook pissing match with a prominent reporter here(Rochester when she posed the question to the world that this could be road rage).I know racing like few and the only rage was by the kid. If you watch the video the kid almost gets hit before that and behind that driver is Tony. The insinuation he did it on purpose is ignorant. Pretty sure he never saw him till it was too late.

[oldpotatoe]

OK, someone had to bring this up, and I guess it's going to be me.

What, if anything, will happen to "Smoke?"

I'm guessing not much.

(Don't watch the video if you're squeamish about stuff like this, but it isn't a Joe Theismann type of image.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mtlTJAWFyRY

Don't they have a rule and punishment(less than getting killed, that is) for getting out of your car, with other cars whizzing around you, to point your finger or shake your fist at someone?

Seems really dumb to me but I'm not a 'go straight, turn left' type of car racing fan, so don't know much about it.

[soulspinner]

Don't they have a rule and punishment(less than getting killed, that is) for getting out of your car, with other cars whizzing around you, to point your finger or shake your fist at someone?

Seems really dumb to me but I'm not a 'go straight, turn left' type of car racing fan, so don't know much about it.

In every drivers meeting before a race an official will state, after an accident do not leave your car until safety cars are there. The only exceptions are a fire etc.

[Tony T]

The insinuation he did it on purpose is ignorant.

It was clearly not his intention to kill (or injure) him.
Tony only meant to put a scare into him by fishtailing towards him as he passed, but his driving skills are not as great as he thought.

[firerescuefin]

It was clearly not his intention to kill (or injure) him.
Tony only meant to put a scare into him by fishtailing towards him as he passed, but his driving skills are not as great as he thought.

The car did not fishtail until the guy was under the rear wheel. Ward being under the car caused it to fish tail....or at the very least accentuates the appearance that the car fishtailed.

[oldpotatoe]

It was clearly not his intention to kill (or injure) him.
Tony only meant to put a scare into him by fishtailing towards him as he passed, but his driving skills are not as great as he thought.

I know so little about this and this type of racing, but howTheF__ do you know what he meant or didn't mean to do??

Maybe the kid should have stayed in his farging car??? Ya think?

I find this comment really off base, IMHO.

[Tony T]

The car did not fishtail until the guy was under the rear wheel. Ward being under the car caused it to fish tail....or at the very least accentuates the appearance that the car fishtailed.

Yes, I see that now. (I had to load the video into another app to run it frame-by-frame)

[Tony T]

I know so little about this and this type of racing, but howTheF__ do you know what he meant or didn't mean to do??

Maybe the kid should have stayed in his farging car??? Ya think?

I find this comment really off base, IMHO.

I based my comment on a witness who was there (so IMO, my comment was not off-base).

"A witness to Saturday night’s crash (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/11/sports/autoracing/tony-stewart-kills-driver-during-confrontation-on-racetrack.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpSumSmallMediaHigh&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0), the sprint car driver Tyler Graves, told Sporting News that Stewart would have been able to see Ward from his car and that Stewart hit the throttle as he got close to Ward.

'When you hit a throttle on a sprint car, the car sets sideways,” Graves said. “It set sideways, the right rear tire hit Kevin, Kevin was sucked underneath and was stuck under it for a second or two.'"

[redir]

Looks like a road rage incident to me. Not saying he got what he deserved by walking out in the middle of a race track wearing black in front of his black car for a nice no contrast back ground under the lights with all kinds of shadows but...

[shovelhd]

The kid was a dope for standing in the racing line. NASCAR bloviates all day long about safety but looks the other way if the safety interferes with the fan experience. They can warn drivers all they want but if they want this behavior to stop they have to suspend drivers, which costs their team millions.

Tony Stewart is a hothead. He was a hothead in Sprint, a hothead in Indy, and then he found fenders in Cup. Whether or not he blipped the throttle to scare the kid or not, his reputation precedes him, and that cannot be changed. How he handles this going forward will define what is left of his career. It did not start off well. Stating that he has a business to run is not exactly showing like he gives a crap that he killed a fellow driver. Other drivers in similar fatality-causing crashes have reacted very differently. This is one to watch.

[FlashUNC]

The kid was a dope for standing in the racing line. NASCAR bloviates all day long about safety but looks the other way if the safety interferes with the fan experience. They can warn drivers all they want but if they want this behavior to stop they have to suspend drivers, which costs their team millions.

Tony Stewart is a hothead. He was a hothead in Sprint, a hothead in Indy, and then he found fenders in Cup. Whether or not he blipped the throttle to scare the kid or not, his reputation precedes him, and that cannot be changed. How he handles this going forward will define what is left of his career. It did not start off well. Stating that he has a business to run is not exactly showing like he gives a crap that he killed a fellow driver. Other drivers in similar fatality-causing crashes have reacted very differently. This is one to watch.

This is where I wonder about intent. He has a reputation as a hothead, and initially planned to race at the NASCAR event the next day, with his publicist even making the statement that everything was "business as usual."

He really could not care any less about what happened to the kid, at least from all the public statements until there was enormous backlash about it.

[Climb01742]

In NYC there's a famous outdoor basketball court on West 4th Street in Manhattan. Players from all over the city come there to play and crowds can get five and six deep all around the court. A few times I've seen big name pro's come to watch...but never play. A little more often you might see marginal pro's or ex-pro's play...and every time they have a huge bull's eye on their back. Hoops on the city's outdoor courts are not for the faint of heart. I once saw a player have a foul called on him by another player and player A went to his gym bag, pulled out a gun, walked over to player B and said, you wanna change that call?

Which is a long winded way of saying, why big name Nascar drivers drive on dirt tracks always seemed to court danger. I'll admit I'm not steeped in Nascar culture but big names on small tracks seems kinda nuts.

[oldpotatoe]

I based my comment on a witness who was there (so IMO, my comment was not off-base).

"A witness to Saturday night’s crash (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/11/sports/autoracing/tony-stewart-kills-driver-during-confrontation-on-racetrack.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpSumSmallMediaHigh&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0), the sprint car driver Tyler Graves, told Sporting News that Stewart would have been able to see Ward from his car and that Stewart hit the throttle as he got close to Ward.

'When you hit a throttle on a sprint car, the car sets sideways,” Graves said. “It set sideways, the right rear tire hit Kevin, Kevin was sucked underneath and was stuck under it for a second or two.'"

Fine and dandy but only one guy knows what was going on with Stewart in the moment.

[Bruce K]

Pro athlete contracts exclude "dangerous" activities all the time but this is different

NASCAR sanctions these local races as well as Sprint Cup so when a big name chooses to race it is serious $$$$$ for the local track

Many times drivers have said in interviews that race car drivers race - it's what they do. F1 drivers race Le Mans and sometimes they do rallies. It us only the demands of schedules (testing, travel, practice, qualifying, races, sponsor Oromo events, etc.) that limit participation in events other than their main contracted series

BTW - if this had happened with one of the track "regulars" this would be a non-issue

BK

[cfox]

In NYC there's a famous outdoor basketball court on West 4th Street in Manhattan. Players from all over the city come there to play and crowds can get five and six deep all around the court. A few times I've seen big name pro's come to watch...but never play. A little more often you might see marginal pro's or ex-pro's play...and every time they have a huge bull's eye on their back. Hoops on the city's outdoor courts are not for the faint of heart. I once saw a player have a foul called on him by another player and player A went to his gym bag, pulled out a gun, walked over to player B and said, you wanna change that call?

Which is a long winded way of saying, why big name Nascar drivers drive on dirt tracks always seemed to court danger. I'll admit I'm not steeped in Nascar culture but big names on small tracks seems kinda nuts.

Guys do it all the time. In F1, with heavy restrictions on testing, a lot of drivers spend time racing karts during breaks. As for Tony Stewart, he co-owns his NASCAR team, so no one is going to tell him to stop. Plus I bet his sponsors think it adds to his "bad-boy racing maniac" image. No wife, no kids, just race cars.

[Bruce K]

Just heard a report that this particular track/race was not a NASCAR sanctioned track/race

Doesn't change the rest just a fact

BK

[malcolm]

Not a NASCAR fan and don't watch it. I do occasionally watch the sprint cars though. I spent a lot of time racing motocross at a fairly high level and anytime you go down you exit the track immediately, just common sense.

I do know Tony Stewart has a reputation as a hot head or at least did, but I think he also has a reputation as an aggressive but fair racer. Kid was wide and couldn't hold his line then did something incredibly stupid.

As far as road rage goes, really. I don't something like this is barely a blip on a pro drivers screen. I suspect it was an accident due to the young guys reckless behavior. Hopefully Tony wasn't trying to rooster him or brush him back but I see no evidence of it in the video of course it's a narrow view through a camera lens.

[Rada]

BTW - if this had happened with one of the track "regulars" this would be a non-issue

BK

Really? There is a dead twenty year old kid.

[firerescuefin]

Just heard a report that this particular track/race was not a NASCAR sanctioned track/race

Doesn't change the rest just a fact

BK

Bruce...you mentioned it, but just wanted to reiterate that Nascar doesn't sanction Sprints, Champcars or Midgets...period. They used to (possibly still do) sanction open wheel Modifieds, but that was pretty limited.

As CFOX mentioned most of your Nascar guys run something outside of their "jobs" for fun, whether its Late Models, Sprints, Midgets, etc. As a matter of fact Stewart hosts a huge invitational at his track each year called "Prelude to the Dream" that is a late model race to raise money for charity and pretty much all the top names from Nascar take part....only because they want to.

I am a little biased, you wouldn't catch me at most Nascar races, but love Sprint cars. (1350 pounds, 850 HP Ethanol Big Block, Open Headers).Nothing wrong with the racing and it's a far ways from Jethro and his brothers with shotguns on the gun rack in their truck. If the World of Outlaws ever come near your town, they are worth every penny you'll pay to watch them. Tony Stewart happens to be the car owner of the best Outlaw Sprint team out there (and has for awhile)

Climb...don't think the playground analogy is a real good one, but I get what your saying and the sponsors that are essentially sponsoring the driver, not the team, would surely agree with you. Stewart is a part owner in his Sprint Cup team and isn't going to allow something in his contract to limit his opportunity to go racing. It's not a mistake he's #14 (AJ Foyt)...Foyt was a "anything, anywhere, anytime" racer and Stewart has embraced that and that's his image. Much like Cav in cycling Stewart runs his mouth, adds color to the sport (whether you like him or not)...and has the "legs" to back it up.

I'm neither a lover or hater of Stewart, but I do respect his talent and drive as well as how he is held in regard in the community of drivers. Hotheaded...Yes. Will race you hard and race you like you race him...Yes. Malicious and try to hurt folks...Never even given a thought (in the past).

Realize this guy has literally run thousands of races.

[Climb01742]

Climb...don't think the playground analogy is a real good one, but I get what your saying and the sponsors that are essentially sponsoring the driver, not the team, would surely agree with you. Stewart is a part owner in his Sprint Cup team and isn't going to allow something in his contract to limit his opportunity to go racing. It's not a mistake he's #14 (AJ Foyt)...Foyt was a "anything, anywhere, anytime" racer and Stewart has embraced that and that's his image. Much like Cav in cycling Stewart runs his mouth, adds color to the sport (whether you like him or not)...and has the "legs" to back it up.

You're right, of course. It really does seem to be part of the fabric of the sport and it changing isn't going to happen. But it does seem that part of this story is a young 20-year-old (maybe) trying to show that he can't be intimidated by one of the big boys. I could well be wrong but harder to imagine a driver walking onto a track at Daytona. I know drivers fight everywhere but this particular move seems (to me anyway) more likely where younger, less experienced and hungrier racers are. Am I wrong? Whatever the answer, it's all very sad. Losing your life should never be the price of a mistake.

[cfox]

Really? There is a dead twenty year old kid.

I think what he means is that had the 20yr old not been killed by a NASCAR star, average joe would never have heard about it. Sprint cars are very dangerous, and there are fatalities every year. How many are the lead story on Sportscenter?

[Bruce K]

I agree it's tragic a twenty year old kid is dead

I stand by my comment. We would not be talking about it here with a prominent driver being involved. This would be local news and maybe 1 or 2 mentions on Sports Center if it had been televised but nothing like it is and the conversation is because it involves a big name driver.

I can name several drivers I knew and/ or raced against who died in racing accidents. None of them got this much air time.

BK

[Rada]

Yes a non issue for us and it would not be getting big air time. This is not a typical accidental death of a race car driver. Drivers losing control of their emotions and going after another driver that they believe has wronged them seems to be getting more common. It's time race officials end the smack on the wrist for violating these rules and level hefty suspensions and fines. Instead of a system where there is a wink and a nod for better ratings.

[firerescuefin]

Yes a non issue for us and it would not be getting big air time. This is not a typical accidental death of a race car driver. Drivers losing control of their emotions and going after another driver that they believe has wronged them seems to be getting more common. It's time race officials end the smack on the wrist for violating these rules and level hefty suspensions and fines. Instead of a system where there is a wink and a nod for better ratings.

You realize this was not televised and this was a VERY local race. This was your open 1/2 crit....that local.

[Rada]

You realize this was not televised and this was a VERY local race.

Yes. Don't you think what goes on with the big boys affects the lower levels? Question? If the kid had not been killed and just showed his ass to TS as he intended, what do you think everyone who had been at the track that night would be talking about? The winner? Doubt it. Look at NASCAR, driver goes stupid and runs to the edge of the track and flings his helmet at the guy who wrecked him. What is the big story, the winner or the helmet toss? NASCAR calls the offending driver in for a pep talk. Media plays it up all week long. If NASCAR gave the dumb azz driver a years suspension you really think you would see it happen again?

[firerescuefin]

Yes. Don't you think what goes on with the big boys affects the lower levels? Question? If the kid had not been killed and just showed his ass to TS as he intended, what do you think everyone who had been at the track that night would be talking about? The winner? Doubt it. Look at NASCAR, driver goes stupid and runs to the edge of the track and flings his helmet at the guy who wrecked him. What is the big story, the winners or the helmet toss? NASCAR calls the offending driver in for a pep talk. Media plays it up all week long. If NASCAR gave the dumb azz driver a years suspension you really think you would see it happen again?

I do...but that cat has been let out of the bag a long time ago (try 40-50 years). Nascar actually came out 2 years ago and said they were going to let more of it happen because the lack of it was killing their ratings (the perception that it had become too white collar and that real rivalries weren't present). You want to go off on some tangent about how that's a failure of society, you can. But, I'll add that racing isn't the only sport that is walking that line.

You can't fix stupid, nor can you spend an exponentially large percentage of resources on the 1.5% to try to save them from themselves. That sounds incredibly harsh, but watching Nascar on sunday didn't kill this kid. His actions were so out of bounds. I've been to hundreds of these races and as I said involved at the Sprint car racing level with my family. This was beyond bad judgement.

[Rada]

True they are not the only ones walking that line. But, as is being seen in the NFL they are starting to pay the price, literally, for walking it. Isn't fixing stupid the reason for rules?

[firerescuefin]

True they are not the only ones walking that line. But, as is being seen in the NFL they are starting to pay the price, literally, for walking it. Isn't fixing stupid the reason for rules?

I get where you are coming from...and to your last point, I'd agree. But, going back to your point about Nascar changing the way things are done, you're talking about walking away from a lot of money. Now hockey has really tried to re-make it's image because it thought in the long run it was going to be better off with a different type of game. Nascar hasn't come to that same conclusion. With regard to the NFL they need the perception "violent enough" to keep a certain demographic/image. It's brutal, it's dark, it's business.

[malcolm]

I suspect if the kid hadn't been hit he would be a local hero for standing up to Tony Stewart. I would imagine most people like having Tony there as it's most likely good for the sport and the local track but I suspect a lot of folks resent having him there as well.

[Rada]

Agreed that it is impossible and unrealistic to totally institutionalize violence out of sports and keep them profitable. If NASCAR (racing) wants to allow WWF off the track that is one thing, however, having drivers running around the track out of their cars to get some instant payback is a different game and needs to be discouraged with big ramifications.

[CunegoFan]

I stand by my comment. We would not be talking about it here with a prominent driver being involved. This would be local news and maybe 1 or 2 mentions on Sports Center if it had been televised but nothing like it is and the conversation is because it involves a big name driver.


It is not because it is a big name driver. It is because it is a driver who is a hot head, a bully on the track, who has nurtured a bad boy image. A lot of people's immediate gut belief is that Stewart tried to sling some dirt on the kid, messed up, and killed him. If it was any other driver people's first reaction would be it was nothing more than a tragic accident.

[firerescuefin]

Agreed that it is impossible and unrealistic to totally institutionalize violence out of sports and keep them profitable. If NASCAR (racing) wants to allow WWF off the track that is one thing, however, having drivers running around the track out of their cars to get some instant payback is a different game and needs to be discouraged with big ramifications.

Ward ran the local series and it was sanctioned (just not by Nascar). If it was known that you leave the car without the help/assistance/escort of the medical staff, you sit out 2 races (first offense) with escalators for other offenses. It would go a long way to prevent stuff like this.

[firerescuefin]

It is not because it is a big name driver. It is because it is a driver who is a hot head, a bully on the track, who has nurtured a bad boy image. A lot of people's immediate gut belief is that Stewart tried to sling some dirt on the kid, messed up, and killed him. If it was any other driver people's first reaction would be it was nothing more than a tragic accident.

I wouldn't call him a bully on the track...You race him clean...he'll race you clean. You run him dirty, he'll put you in the wall. It works IMO.

This is not to be confused with using the vehicle as an intimidation piece or weapon when someone is outside their vehicle.

[Bruce K]

CF - you pretty much made my point

But if it was Joe Blow, the local hothead / bully (and they're out there at every level and form if almost every sport), I still think this conversation doesn't 't happen at the level and intensity that it does currently.

Not saying it shouldn't happen no matter the level, just that it doesn't

BK

[shovelhd]

I wouldn't call him a bully on the track...You race him clean...he'll race you clean. You run him dirty, he'll put you in the wall. It works IMO.

This is not to be confused with using the vehicle as an intimidation piece or weapon when someone is outside their vehicle.

That may be true today, but that was definitely not his attitude when he broke into Cup. He has to learn a lot of things the hard way. He tore up millions of dollars worth of equipment.

Sprint and midget racing used to be sanctioned by USAC, the auto club.

This situation has a pretty good correlary to bike racing. Domestic and international pros race local races often. If you've got the license you can enter and race for the free beer. It happens all over the country. So let's use an extreme example and say that Cav and couple of his teammates show up at the local harvest fair criterium. With two to go a young aspiring Cat1 Junior tries to muscle his way into Cav's lead out train, and Cav elbows him into the curb, taking him out of the race. What do you think would happen to the kid if on the last lap he walked onto the course and threw his helmet at Cav? My guess would be a suspension straight from Colorado, which would most likely end his career, especially if anyone was hurt.

[FlashUNC]

I wouldn't call him a bully on the track...You race him clean...he'll race you clean. You run him dirty, he'll put you in the wall. It works IMO.

This is not to be confused with using the vehicle as an intimidation piece or weapon when someone is outside their vehicle.

He may not be a bully, but he seems to get into an awful lot of fights...

Fighting with race officials?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dgNf6eTfuM

Or throwing his helmet at Matt Kenseth?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwc8obMmv7o

What about the fight with Joey Logano?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REnIe8q3E4I

Or the fight with Kurt Busch?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfza7Ptfk5s

And that's just the first page of YouTube links. Not that big of a stretch, for a guy who seems to let his emotions get the best of him, take things way too far.

[firerescuefin]

That may be true today, but that was definitely not his attitude when he broke into Cup. He has to learn a lot of things the hard way. He tore up millions of dollars worth of equipment.

He's never been known as a dirty driver. Overly aggressive...yes. Dirty...no.

He did tear up equipment, but started winning championships quick. When you're tearing stuff up, you better win. He has always had a very big mouth. That was what turned me off about him.

[shovelhd]

He's never been known as a dirty driver. Overly aggressive...yes. Dirty...no.

He did tear up equipment, but started winning championships quick. When you're tearing stuff up, you better win. He has always had a very big mouth. That was what turned me off about him.

We will have to agree to disagree then. I wouldn't call him dirty now but he absolutely was dirty when he started in Cup. He learned quickly because he picked fights with some of the biggest names in the sport.

[fuzzalow]

Losing your life should never be the price of a mistake.

Agree if taken within the context of general life and living. For example the youthful mistake of temporarily smoking cigarettes during a phase of growing up should not result in death.

However, a mistake taken within the context of an occupation and a profession might not, nor should, offer such leeway. Especially a sport and profession as inherently dangerous as found in most forms of motorsport. The young driver that was killed did not appear cognizant to the realities of his chosen profession. There is no excuse for that and although death was a tragic consequence, it was also a completely self inflicted error in an environment can be unyieldingly lethal. The driver's fatal mistake was not to respect that reality.

You can't fix stupid, nor can you spend an exponentially large percentage of resources on the 1.5% to try to save them from themselves. That sounds incredibly harsh, but watching Nascar on sunday didn't kill this kid.

No, that is not harsh at all. It is not harsh to recognize the realities and consequences of a profession in the most strict and unforgiving of terms. Because those realities do not go away because someone is too stupid to recognize that they exist and chooses to ignore them at their own peril.

Everyone should please stop the feigned sympathy for the victim as a driver and simply express regret at his demise as a human being. His loss of human life is tragic. But his death as a driver was preordained because he died stupidly. This poor fool did not know what he was up against and paid the price accordingly. The arena he was in was neither his participation in a Speed Racer cartoon nor was it a staged spectacle along the lines of WWF pro wrestling. It was very real and he was not above the laws of physics.

As far as intent on the part of Stewart, IMO there was none. This kid was a nobody to him, there was no reason to run him down. BTW, I think all this bad boy-racer stuff is a staged concoction that appeals to the primitive taste and instincts of NASCAR's primary target audience. Yeeeeeeee Haaaaaaaw! Attaboy Tony!!

[Rada]

Yes the young man was ultimately responsible for his stupid decision, but the the sport itself can not wash it hands of this when allows if not encourages stupid decisions. I'm betting by the time this all shakes out you're going to see some changes up and down the food chain if not merely for liability issues.

[soulspinner]

If someone trailing had an in car cam it woulda helped to see it directly, not from the side...........

[firerescuefin]

I could show similar youtube clips for a myriad of drivers. If you're going to a bunch of youtube clips (altercations after incidents on the track) from the last 16 years and call him a bully on the track, I don't think that's accurate. If you tell me you follow the sport and that is your memory and impression, I'd certainly respect that more. I have followed it and that's not my impression, nor was it when we raced against him in Sprint cars and Champ Cars (very similar to Sprints). He was a hot head and could come across as a A-hole. That's not a bully in my opinion.

I don't think he intentionally hit the the kid, nor do I think he was trying to give him a brush by. What would have been worse (and actually in his possible wheelhouse) would for the kid to have raced him hard and borderline rough, and have Stewart put him over the wall...and he died. I've seen Kinser, Swindell, Wolfgang, and other Sprint greats do that to other drivers and I'm sure Tony has done that..and that's always made me nervous, because everyone does not walk away from those.



He may not be a bully, but he seems to get into an awful lot of fights...

Fighting with race officials?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dgNf6eTfuM

Or throwing his helmet at Matt Kenseth?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwc8obMmv7o

What about the fight with Joey Logano?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REnIe8q3E4I

Or the fight with Kurt Busch?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfza7Ptfk5s

And that's just the first page of YouTube links. Not that big of a stretch, for a guy who seems to let his emotions get the best of him, take things way too far.

[sitzmark]

I'm no expert on this, but some folks are saying that the TS throttle blip is incriminating.

There are longer vids that capture the entire incident starting a lap back. Stewart did nothing that merited Ward's anger. Stewart entered the turn well ahead of where Ward was required to yield a lower line. It was Ward who was trying to overtake and it was his responsibility to do so "safely". Ward elected to "thread the needle" when he should have seen Stewart was steering into and correcting his drift. It doesn't appear that Stewart ever made contact - Ward's RR touched the wall and flipped him around. There was no dirty or reckless driving by Stewart. http://youtu.be/qLYF-cw6oA4

Unless there was something that had been going on all race, Stewart probably had no idea why he was being singled out by Ward. The throttle blip could have been Stewart reacting to being surprised/charged by Ward and trying to get away from him. Stewart clearly didn't steer into Ward. Doubt anything definitive can be determined from the angle of these videos.

A total tragedy all the way around.

[clyde the point]

Tony Stewart is not responsible for Ward's actions. Ward is. Conjecture about Stewart and his "reputation" and "what you think" happened have no bearing on the reality of Ward's actions being completely responsible for his demise.

Racing is a great sport. And lots of great men die doing what they love.

RIP Ward.

[FlashUNC]

I could show similar youtube clips for a myriad of drivers. If you're going to a bunch of youtube clips (altercations after incidents on the track) from the last 16 years and call him a bully on the track, I don't think that's accurate. If you tell me you follow the sport and that is your memory and impression, I'd certainly respect that more. I have followed it and that's not my impression, nor was it when we raced against him in Sprint cars and Champ Cars (very similar to Sprints). He was a hot head and could come across as a A-hole. That's not a bully in my opinion.

I don't think he intentionally hit the the kid, nor do I think he was trying to give him a brush by. What would have been worse (and actually in his possible wheelhouse) would for the kid to have raced him hard and borderline rough, and have Stewart put him over the wall...and he died. I've seen Kinser, Swindell, Wolfgang, and other Sprint greats do that to other drivers and I'm sure Tony has done that..and that's always made me nervous, because everyone does not walk away from those.

Followed NASCAR on and off. One of the prerequisites of growing up in the South, and I followed Tony back in his open wheel days when I was a far more obsessive IRL/CART/IndyCar fan.

Bully's probably too strong a word, but trouble seems to follow him around at an inordinate rate compared with other drivers, whether stock car or open wheel. The fact the most prominent montages and video clips of him on YouTube are either user uploaded -- or even NASCAR endorsed -- clips of his fights and other run-ins is a testament to that. Its the kind of reputation built up over a long enough period that leads to people asking the very question we've got.

At the end of the day, do I think he did it on purpose? Probably not, and Ward certainly deserves his fair share of the blame. But we can't rule out something more malicious either when its a guy who chucks his helmet at others, or finds other guys in the pitts to fight, or heck, goes after race officials.

If it were another driver with a different public persona -- say Jeff Gordon or Dario Franchitti -- then I think you'd be getting a very different reaction to this. But those guys also aren't out slinging dirt on a Saturday night when they've got a Sprint Cup race the next morning. Tony's cultivated (along with NASCAR, they've got a hand in that image promoting their sport too) the bad boy image. Well, now its coming back to haunt him a bit I think.

If I'm the Frances and NASCAR, I'd take a long look at guys participating in these lesser circuits if they're a regular Sprint Cup driver, and some harsh penalties for any of the extracurricular shenanigans. The days of a Cale Yarborough and Donnie Allison-style donnybrook should remain in the past, imo.

[firerescuefin]

Well said.

Who would have thought....on a niche bicycle forum.


Followed NASCAR on and off. One of the prerequisites of growing up in the South, and I followed Tony back in his open wheel days when I was a far more obsessive IRL/CART/IndyCar fan.

Bully's probably too strong a word, but trouble seems to follow him around at an inordinate rate compared with other drivers, whether stock car or open wheel. The fact the most prominent montages and video clips of him on YouTube are either user uploaded -- or even NASCAR endorsed -- clips of his fights and other run-ins is a testament to that. Its the kind of reputation built up over a long enough period that leads to people asking the very question we've got.

At the end of the day, do I think he did it on purpose? Probably not, and Ward certainly deserves his fair share of the blame. But we can't rule out something more malicious either when its a guy who chucks his helmet at others, or finds other guys in the pitts to fight, or heck, goes after race officials.

If it were another driver with a different public persona -- say Jeff Gordon or Dario Franchitti -- then I think you'd be getting a very different reaction to this. But those guys also aren't out slinging dirt on a Saturday night when they've got a Sprint Cup race the next morning. Tony's cultivated (along with NASCAR, they've got a hand in that image promoting their sport too) the bad boy image. Well, now its coming back to haunt him a bit I think.

If I'm the Frances and NASCAR, I'd take a long look at guys participating in these lesser circuits if they're a regular Sprint Cup driver, and some harsh penalties for any of the extracurricular shenanigans. The days of a Cale Yarborough and Donnie Allison-style donnybrook should remain in the past, imo.

[johnny_flapjack]

I am far from a Tony Stewart fan, to be sure. I don't think I guy needs to be an a-hole, even if it is for PR reasons.

That said, I do feel all of the "I'm sure this is what Tony's intent was" comments are a bit misplaced. It feels like the whole "Well, she couldn't possibly have been raped, because she's a whore" argument. Just because the guy's an a-hole and a hot-head doesn't mean he intended to do anything toward the other driver. Unless you've driven one of these cars, please stop believing you understand how they would react or respond to split-second corrections in that very specific situation. They're not go-karts on asphalt, and they don't respond to steering input like your Honda.

It sucks that the guy is dead, and it's a bummer that another guy has to carry this around with him for the rest of his life. Nobody here knows Stewart's motives or intentions, and I would bet that he will not have a soul-cleansing discussion to reveal any of that. There will probably be a settlement with the family, not necessarily out of the goodness of Stewart's heart, but so that there is a gag order installed and it goes away more quickly. What type of changes the various racing circuits make as a result of this remains to be seen. My guess is not much. The public forgets about these things quickly.

[Frankwurst]

Shouldn't be a settlement or any lawsuits, nothing. It's racing. You buy your ticket, you take the ride. :beer:

[FlashUNC]

Well said.

Who would have thought....on a niche bicycle forum.

Just don't get me started on the recent engine changes in Formula One...

FWIW, NASCAR's backwards approach to technology is what lost me, and IRL's criminally irresponsible race in Vegas that killed Dan Wheldon is finally what turned me off to U.S. open wheel racing.

[saab2000]

Shouldn't be a settlement or any lawsuits, nothing. It's racing. You buy your ticket, you take the ride. :beer:

I pretty much agree, though I've only seen the short video and only count myself as a casual race fan and then pretty much only F1 though there are some aspects of NASCAR that aren't totally uninteresting. So I'm not really qualified to comment too much.

That said, he wasn't killed in a racing accident. He was killed because he got out of his car and approached a fast moving race car on an uneven, unpredictable surface. Had he wanted TV time and drama (something US sports seem to love) he should have waited until after the race for a boxing match with TS.

It's a tragedy and I don't really believe the crocodile tears of TS and his entourage but I also don't believe there was any real malice or intent. Talk of settlements and charges are out of line IMHO.

[Md3000]

That said, I do feel all of the "I'm sure this is what Tony's intent was" comments are a bit misplaced. It feels like the whole "Well, she couldn't possibly have been raped, because she's a whore" argument. Just because the guy's an a-hole and a hot-head doesn't mean he intended to do anything toward the other driver. Unless you've driven one of these cars, please stop believing you understand how they would react or respond to split-second corrections in that very specific situation. They're not go-karts on asphalt, and they don't respond to steering input like your Honda.

As a complete outsider, I don't even think you need to understand how the sport works (and I mean that in a respectful sense). I read the thread, watched all the YouTube links and I still think it's a huge stretch from fighting with officials and throwing helmets, being an a-hole or a hothead, to riding into someone with an intent to kill him or almost kill him.

[Rada]

Shouldn't be a settlement or any lawsuits, nothing. It's racing. You buy your ticket, you take the ride. :beer:

The type of mentality that is now costing the NFL three quarters of a billion dollars.

[cfox]

I know sprints are low tech, but I wonder if there is any sort of engine data/telemetry on those things. My 10yr old's racing kart has a computer that records and graphs rpm in real time. You can look at any specific second in a race and see what the rpms are. It's not outlandish to think an expensive sprint car might have something similar to what a go-kart has. If it did, they could see for sure if TS blipped the throttle at that specific moment.

[93legendti]

If the rule is to stay in your car and he got out and was walking on the track to gesture at a driver, I am sorry he is dead, but that's not just stupid, it's bordering on suicidal.

People die from mistakes all the time. It is tragic, but it happens. This wasn't a mistake.

Is knowingly (I am sure drivers sign off on track rules) breaking a safety rule a mistake?

[Louis]

If the rule is to stay in your car and he got out and was walking on the track to gesture at a driver, I am sorry he is dead, but that's not just stupid, it's bordering on suicidal.

I believe it is a "rule," but from what I've read it's a rule that's been broken plenty of times before. It's just that this is the first time it's resulted in such a high-profile incident.

I bet if the guy driving the car that hit Ward had been anyone else at the track that day, this would not have made the national (and international) news.

[rustychisel]

He could come to Australia and drive a real car for a while. Trust me, nobody in Australia knows who TS is. :)

[firerescuefin]

He could come to Australia and drive a real car for a while. Trust me, nobody in Australia knows who TS is. :)

Do they know who Marcos Ambrose is?

[rustychisel]

Do they know who Marcos Ambrose is?


only those with an IQ greater than 5 and a comparable memory span in years.


So, about 80 or 85 people, yeah.

[rwsaunders]

I bet if the guy driving the car that hit Ward had been anyone else at the track that day, this would not have made the national (and international) news.

+1. Although many believe that a settlement is unwarranted, the famous legal term of "it depends" will most likely come into play. Stewart has assets and Ward is dead. Harness the power of a distraught family with the services of a savvy personal injury attorney and you can see envision a deal which stays out of the press and keeps the NASCAR machine rolling.

[firerescuefin]

He could come to Australia and drive a real car for a while. Trust me, nobody in Australia knows who TS is. :)

only those with an IQ greater than 5 and a comparable memory span in years.


So, about 80 or 85 people, yeah.

Don't know if you saw the race yesterday, but that was about as entertaining as it gets. I'm a big Ambrose fan.

[Louis]

Do they know who Marcos Ambrose is?

Never heard of him. Did he play with Donald Bradman? ;)

[downtube]

There are longer vids that capture the entire incident starting a lap back. Stewart did nothing that merited Ward's anger. Stewart entered the turn well ahead of where Ward was required to yield a lower line. It was Ward who was trying to overtake and it was his responsibility to do so "safely". Ward elected to "thread the needle" when he should have seen Stewart was steering into and correcting his drift. It doesn't appear that Stewart ever made contact - Ward's RR touched the wall and flipped him around. There was no dirty or reckless driving by Stewart. http://youtu.be/qLYF-cw6oA4

Unless there was something that had been going on all race, Stewart probably had no idea why he was being singled out by Ward. The throttle blip could have been Stewart reacting to being surprised/charged by Ward and trying to get away from him. Stewart clearly didn't steer into Ward. Doubt anything definitive can be determined from the angle of these videos.

A total tragedy all the way around.

You are spot on with your eval of the situation. This is the sad part of racing, but anyone who races understands that the risks are very high.

[malcolm]

The type of mentality that is now costing the NFL three quarters of a billion dollars.

I don't think that's really a good analogy. The NFL issue is from the course of routine play. The collisions are the game. This while it may occasionally occur is an anomaly. The driver put himself in a position of grave danger.

I don't think there should be an exchange of cash unless Stewart is found criminally liable. After having said that with his resources I suspect there will be a payout. This is tragic all around and sometimes dollars don't make things better.

[Rada]

It's part of the culture of ignoring or promoting unsafe acts. The track and or sanctioning body is responsible for the safety of the drivers, various crews, and spectators. The "It's racing. You buy your ticket, you take the ride." mentality is passé. You had better fix now rather than let it bite you later.

[malcolm]

It's part of the culture of ignoring or promoting unsafe acts. The track and or sanctioning body is responsible for the safety of the drivers, various crews, and spectators. The "It's racing. You buy your ticket, you take the ride." mentality is passé. You had better fix now rather than let it bite you later.

Agree and should have gotten that from the original post. A little dense this am.

[unterhausen]

I have to say that doing something dangerous shouldn't buy you a death sentence, but it's a good start. The way Ward was dancing around trying to get in the way just looks insane. Untreated ADHD or something. I see people saying, "the guy in front missed him," but Ward wasn't trying to get in the face of the guy in front. And I think he was lucky the guy in front didn't hit him the way he jumped back. Not that I'm going to feel sorry for Tony Stewart, but he certainly was put in a bad situation and the worst thing happened.

I agree with the sanctions on drivers that get out of their cars. Maybe they should consider stopping the other cars as well. The way they run the cars around at highway speeds sometimes gets dangerous.

[johnny_flapjack]

Good article detailing the legal issues involved:

http://www.si.com/racing/2014/08/10/tony-stewart-kevin-ward-legal-ramifications

[Mr. Pink]

Good article detailing the legal issues involved:

http://www.si.com/racing/2014/08/10/tony-stewart-kevin-ward-legal-ramifications

I remember when SI was of a certain caliber that they wouldn't stoop to printing speculative and inflammatory garbage like that.

[malcolm]

That article is right up there with nancy grace and her biased crazy speculating. Quoting what other racers said and think is useless and just fuels the speculation fire. Those guys are Ward's friends and they are upset and trying to place blame. Let it be investigated and if video can be found from other angles view that. Quoting relatives and friends just stirs the emotional pot.

[FlashUNC]

How dare the friends and relatives have a viewpoint that's shared with the wider world...


On another note, apparently local sheriffs have a video of the incident from a second angle that has not yet been released to the public.

[malcolm]

How dare the friends and relatives have a viewpoint that's shared with the wider world...


On another note, apparently local sheriffs have a video of the incident from a second angle that has not yet been released to the public.

Nobody said they should have a view but in doesn't need to appear in every print rag trying to sell copy especially presenting driver friends as experts or suggesting they could in anyway know what was going on the Stewarts cockpit or what he saw.

[azrider]

How dare the friends and relatives have a viewpoint that's shared with the wider world...


On another note, apparently local sheriffs have a video of the incident from a second angle that has not yet been released to the public.

AND there is statement made by another driver that was right behind Stewart at time of accident and he is saying "TS did everything possible to avoid hitting Mr. Ward and the video doesn't accurately reflect what happened on the track."

that SI article is complete garbage

[malcolm]

AND there is statement made by another driver that was right behind Stewart at time of accident and he is saying "TS did everything possible to avoid hitting Mr. Ward and the video doesn't accurately reflect what happened on the track."

that SI article is complete garbage

I've not heard that driver quote but the saying he knows Stewart could see him is being quoted everywhere

[rnhood]

Agree, its pure garbage. Written by the founder of Sports & Entertainment Law Institute. I bet the curriculum there focuses on suing frivolously for a quick path to wealth.

[johnny_flapjack]

I posted it because multiple people earlier in this thread opined that there should be no basis for a settlement. While I agree that quoting another racer as somehow being supporting evidence for a point is stupid, the discussion about the civil suit and settlement is realistic. Settlement often has less to do with liability than it does with a desire to put something to bed with less pain than the alternative.

[malcolm]

I posted it because multiple people earlier in this thread opined that there should be no basis for a settlement. While I agree that quoting another racer as somehow being supporting evidence for a point is stupid, the discussion about the civil suit and settlement is realistic. Settlement often has less to do with liability than it does with a desire to put something to bed with less pain than the alternative.

It was a good post. It just pisses me off when they just repeatedly report non information and stir up trouble.

[azrider]

I've not heard that driver quote but the saying he knows Stewart could see him is being quoted everywhere

More drivers that were there and racing that night are coming forward

http://www.wkrg.com/story/26253202/local-drivers-stewart-not-at-fault

Ridiculous that Stewarts past infractions, or as some may say passion, is coming to light and being used as undertone for this being something intentional.

Only those who were on the track in my opinion have anything of value to add to the discussion.

[Rada]

More drivers that were there and racing that night are coming forward

http://www.wkrg.com/story/26253202/local-drivers-stewart-not-at-fault

Ridiculous that Stewarts past infractions, or as some may say passion, is coming to light and being used as undertone for this being something intentional.

Only those who were on the track in my opinion have anything of value to add to the discussion.

What is ridiculous is the article you linked as if it is definitive. It's not as if the guy who runs the track and the two drivers quoted in the article (who work their real jobs for this guy) have a dog in the hunt. Kinda makes sense for them to lay all blame at Ward's feet. You know for possible liability issues. The rest of the article is of no value according to you.

[CunegoFan]

More drivers that were there and racing that night are coming forward


They are probably afraid of being run over by Stewart if they say the wrong thing. :)

[Climb01742]

Ward's father gets to the heart of the matter succinctly in an interview with a Syracuse paper, 'The one person that knows what happened that night is possibly facing 10 years in prison. Is he going to say what he done?'

[93legendti]

Ward's father gets to the heart of the matter succinctly in an interview with a Syracuse paper, 'The one person that knows what happened that night is possibly facing 10 years in prison. Is he going to say what he done?'

That's the heart of the matter only if you skip his son's wrongful, stupid and possibly suicidal act of walking in the middle of a live racetrack...

If you were TS would you say a word?

Did Ward's father wonder why his son broke the rule and was walking on the track?

[Climb01742]

That's the heart of the matter only if you skip his son's wrongful, stupid and possibly suicidal act of walking in the middle of a live racetrack...

If you were TS would you say a word?

Did Ward's father wonder why his son broke the rule and was walking on the track?

Adam, I'm not against TS or blaming him. The younger Ward did a very stupid thing. I should have been more clear. What struck me about what Ward 's father said was its existential truth. Regardless of everything else, there is this fundamental question: What was TS's intent, if he had any intent, the moment before his car met Ward? Only TS knows. Given the consequences, what would any human being say? Whatever the truth is, TS is in such a strange place. If he is innocent of any intent and it truly is just a tragic accident, and that's what he says, will most people believe him, simply because of the self-interest involved in that version? His truth can be the real truth but given what hangs over him, how believable might that truth be? Again, I'm simply fascinated by the existential situation TS and the truth are in, because there may be no independent way to verify what is true.

[azrider]

What is ridiculous is the article you linked as if it is definitive. It's not as if the guy who runs the track and the two drivers quoted in the article (who work their real jobs for this guy) have a dog in the hunt. Kinda makes sense for them to lay all blame at Ward's feet. You know for possible liability issues. The rest of the article is of no value according to you.

oh woops sorry guy.......here is another driver, one who YOU can't paint as someone having a 'dog in the hunt' :rolleyes:

http://rochester.twcnews.com/content/news/760185/exclusive--crash-witness-says-tony-stewart-could-not-have-avoided-hitting-other-driver/

[Md3000]

That's not the fundamental question. The fundamental question is: why did ward get out of the car, walk onto the track in the middle of a race? That's the existential question of this accident, because we all have seen the proof of that happening as an actual fact. The question of intent is already based on the assumption that there is foul play, of which we have not a single bit of evidence.

[Louis]

That's not the fundamental question. The fundamental question is: why did ward get out of the car, walk onto the track in the middle of a race?

Because he's seen other racers do it, and he figured it would be cool to show-up a big name.

[sitzmark]

Ward's father gets to the heart of the matter succinctly in an interview with a Syracuse paper, 'The one person that knows what happened that night is possibly facing 10 years in prison. Is he going to say what he done?'

I've got no dog in the hunt, 'cept I drove midgets numbered #13 in my youth and had a family friend who drove a sprint car that his father and my father built. I have a basic understanding of open-wheel, oval-track racing. I'm not much of a spectator of any sport (I'd rather do than watch), and don't follow NASCAR with any particular interest. So ... pretty much unbiased (IMO).

It is clear that right up until the time TS was side-by-side with Kevin Ward, the ONLY person who displayed aggressive, confrontational behavior was Kevin Ward.

It isn't just what TS intended to do .. it is also what he interpreted KW intended to do. Stewart was in a defensive /reactionary position throughout the entire encounter. It was KW who intentionally decreased the lateral distance between the two of them. At no time did TS steer in KW's direction. Did TS interpret KW actions as a threat - possibly that he was going to throw something into TSs cockpit? Did he interpret that KW was going to lunge at the car (or maybe he did)? Or did TS just decide to get the hell away from the wacko? The facts are that KW was the aggressor.

If I was a juror seated for this case (civil or criminal), someone would need to show me definitive evidence that TS undertook any intentional/deliberate action to place his car on a collision path with Kevin Ward and was not simply reacting to the irrational actions of KW. With the video evidence that is publicly available, that evidence does not exist (IMO).

[Rada]

oh woops sorry guy.......here is another driver, one who YOU can't paint as someone having a 'dog in the hunt' :rolleyes:

http://rochester.twcnews.com/content/news/760185/exclusive--crash-witness-says-tony-stewart-could-not-have-avoided-hitting-other-driver/

No problem guy. I was just pointing out YOU can't have it both ways. :rolleyes:

[malcolm]

the father has a point only Tony really knows what happened. Worst case scenario Tony tried to roost him or brush him back and clipped him. Lets hope not and that would be horrible. The only fact we can be sure of is if the kid had stayed in the car or gotten out and off the track and addressed his issues in the pits he would still be alive.

[Ken Robb]

I've got no dog in the hunt, 'cept I drove midgets numbered #13 in my youth and had a family friend who drove a sprint car that his father and my father built. I have a basic understanding of open-wheel, oval-track racing. I'm not much of a spectator of any sport (I'd rather do than watch), and don't follow NASCAR with any particular interest. So ... pretty much unbiased (IMO).

It is clear that right up until the time TS was side-by-side with Kevin Ward, the ONLY person who displayed aggressive, confrontational behavior was Kevin Ward.

It isn't just what TS intended to do .. it is also what he interpreted KW intended to do. Stewart was in a defensive /reactionary position throughout the entire encounter. It was KW who intentionally decreased the lateral distance between the two of them. At no time did TS steer in KW's direction. Did TS interpret KW actions as a threat - possibly that he was going to throw something into TSs cockpit? Did he interpret that KW was going to lunge at the car (or maybe he did)? Or did TS just decide to get the hell away from the wacko? The facts are that KW was the aggressor.

If I was a juror seated for this case (civil or criminal), someone would need to show me definitive evidence that TS undertook any intentional/deliberate action to place his car on a collision path with Kevin Ward and was not simply reacting to the irrational actions of KW. With the video evidence that is publicly available, that evidence does not exist (IMO).
This seems like a reasonable analysis to me.

[r_mutt]

why are people blaming the victim here?

sounds like a lame excuse like: maybe she shouldn't have been wearing that bikini in front of all those men too. it's the victim's fault.


sound similar to car/bike accidents where people say - "he should have been wearing a helmet" or "he should have been in the bike lane" or she should not have been riding at night". these are all BS excuses when hit by a drunk or inattentive driver. if stewart spun those wheels to try and splash wad with dirt, that's involuntary manslaughter.

[pbarry]

why are people blaming the victim here?

sounds like a lame excuse like: maybe she shouldn't have been wearing that bikini in front of all those men too. it's the victim's fault.


sound similar to car/bike accidents where people say - "he should have been wearing a helmet" or "he should have been in the bike lane" or she should not have been riding at night". these are all BS excuses when hit by a drunk or inattentive driver. if stewart spun those wheels to try and splash wad with dirt, that's involuntary manslaughter.

Inappropriate metaphors. No one should be on foot in the middle of the race course in a wheeled event, be it a car, moto or bike race, unless they are exiting a crashed race car, or dragging their broken bike to the sideline.

[azrider]

I've got no dog in the hunt, 'cept I drove midgets numbered #13 in my youth and had a family friend who drove a sprint car that his father and my father built. I have a basic understanding of open-wheel, oval-track racing. I'm not much of a spectator of any sport (I'd rather do than watch), and don't follow NASCAR with any particular interest. So ... pretty much unbiased (IMO).

It is clear that right up until the time TS was side-by-side with Kevin Ward, the ONLY person who displayed aggressive, confrontational behavior was Kevin Ward.

It isn't just what TS intended to do .. it is also what he interpreted KW intended to do. Stewart was in a defensive /reactionary position throughout the entire encounter. It was KW who intentionally decreased the lateral distance between the two of them. At no time did TS steer in KW's direction. Did TS interpret KW actions as a threat - possibly that he was going to throw something into TSs cockpit? Did he interpret that KW was going to lunge at the car (or maybe he did)? Or did TS just decide to get the hell away from the wacko? The facts are that KW was the aggressor.

If I was a juror seated for this case (civil or criminal), someone would need to show me definitive evidence that TS undertook any intentional/deliberate action to place his car on a collision path with Kevin Ward and was not simply reacting to the irrational actions of KW. With the video evidence that is publicly available, that evidence does not exist (IMO).

So, as an experienced open wheel racer/driver, do you know when you've knocked someone off the track? If you've watched the video of Stewart hitting Ward do you think that Stewart would have known he sent him into the wall?

What I am getting at is, I am curious if Stewart would have even expected him to be on the track the next time he came around?

[r_mutt]

Inappropriate metaphors. No one should be on foot in the middle of the race course in a wheeled event, be it a car, moto or bike race, unless they are exiting a crashed race car, or dragging their broken bike to the sideline.

so because Ward was in the middle of the track with the race neutralized with a yellow flag, something that happens every now and again in circle track motorsports and something that Stewart was also guilty of when he threw a helmet at another driver's car at a nascar race years back, Ward's the one at fault? if it turns out that Stewart revved his motor to shower Ward with dirt, which it appears (and sounds) to look like, Stewart has blood on his hands.

[RacerJRP]

why are people blaming the victim here?

sounds like a lame excuse like: maybe she shouldn't have been wearing that bikini in front of all those men too. it's the victim's fault.


sound similar to car/bike accidents where people say - "he should have been wearing a helmet" or "he should have been in the bike lane" or she should not have been riding at night". these are all BS excuses when hit by a drunk or inattentive driver. if stewart spun those wheels to try and splash wad with dirt, that's involuntary manslaughter.

You are really reaching here.

It has been interesting to read arguments by folks who obviously don't follow racing or have any first hand experience in or around race cars.

[Len J]

Never mind.

[93legendti]

Adam, I'm not against TS or blaming him. The younger Ward did a very stupid thing. I should have been more clear. What struck me about what Ward 's father said was its existential truth. Regardless of everything else, there is this fundamental question: What was TS's intent, if he had any intent, the moment before his car met Ward? Only TS knows. Given the consequences, what would any human being say? Whatever the truth is, TS is in such a strange place. If he is innocent of any intent and it truly is just a tragic accident, and that's what he says, will most people believe him, simply because of the self-interest involved in that version? His truth can be the real truth but given what hangs over him, how believable might that truth be? Again, I'm simply fascinated by the existential situation TS and the truth are in, because there may be no independent way to verify what is true.
Gotcha, when you put it this way, I understand your point.

[r_mutt]

You are really reaching here.

It has been interesting to read arguments by folks who obviously don't follow racing or have any first hand experience in or around race cars.


I have road raced motorcycles for 6 years. I have unfortunately witnessed racers die and get maimed on the racetrack. I know exactly what the dangers are on a hot track.

I have followed F1, Indycars (CART), MotoGP (500GP) and WSBK for over 20 years religiously.

I have also road raced bicycles for 7 years and counting.

[sitzmark]

So, as an experienced open wheel racer/driver, do you know when you've knocked someone off the track? If you've watched the video of Stewart hitting Ward do you think that Stewart would have known he sent him into the wall?

What I am getting at is, I am curious if Stewart would have even expected him to be on the track the next time he came around?

From what I saw in the video, I don't think TS would have known what happened to the car on his right rear, or who's car it was for sure. He was a car length ahead of KW rounding the apex of the corner. He came in "hot" on a mid-line, and passed KW before entering the corner. That speed and that line was naturally going to take him high coming out of the turn. If KW was his immediate chase for moving up a position, he probably would have known who he just passed. If he wasn't battling KW for position, anybody's guess if he would have been mentally keeping track of the 13 car.

TS still hadn't righted the car from drift mode when KW attempted to shoot the gap on the high side. TS wasn't trying to squeeze anyone out - he was trying to regain traction and orient the car to go forward. TS was still making "macro corrections" when KW was making micro corrections and attempting to overtake on the high side. It appears KW got his front wheel to the back of TS's cockpit, but that was about it. When a driver gets a front wheel in that area, technically you're not allowed to chop them off from their line. Just an awkward point, as TS really didn't have enough control at that point to stop his car from drifting higher. TS might have seen the wheel out of his peripheral vision, but again unless his ongoing battle for position was with #13 he may or may not have known whose wheel it was.

If there was contact it was very minor. It actually looks like KW saw the gap closing and backed off. KW was also still drifting slightly and it looks like his right rear wheel hit the wall, which then spun his right front wheel into the wall and bounced him catawampus and spun him about. TS was actually a car length ahead when KW first contacted the wall, so no, at that point TS wouldn't have had any idea what happened to the car on his right flank.

If TS had pushed KW into the wall, it would have been KW's right front wheel that hit the wall first, not the rear of the car.

All of that said, that's having the luxury of hindsight and replay of a poor quality video. At race speed that all took place in a nano second.

[firerescuefin]

sound similar to car/bike accidents where people say - "he should have been wearing a helmet" or "he should have been in the bike lane" or she should not have been riding at night". these are all BS excuses when hit by a drunk or inattentive driver. if stewart spun those wheels to try and splash wad with dirt, that's involuntary manslaughter.

It sounds/is nothing like that.

[sitzmark]

so because Ward was in the middle of the track with the race neutralized with a yellow flag, something that happens every now and again in circle track motorsports and something that Stewart was also guilty of when he threw a helmet at another driver's car at a nascar race years back, Ward's the one at fault? if it turns out that Stewart revved his motor to shower Ward with dirt, which it appears (and sounds) to look like, Stewart has blood on his hands.

What Stewart did with his helmet in the past ... is in the past, and not relevant to this race. Ward initiated and provoked the confrontation. Exactly what transpired at the tragic moment is unknown. How much of the responsibility Ward shares for that is unknown. Had he not been solely responsible for instigating the incident, he might have been a "blameless victim". That wasn't the case.

He certainly didn't deserve to die for what happened, but he played a major role in his own death.

[Seramount]

Ward demonstrated ridiculously poor judgement by walking into the path of oncoming racers.

HE created the situation that led to his death.

[r_mutt]

don't get me wrong, walking on a hot track is very, very, dangerous- and stupid. but for many to say he is solely to blame for this is silly without knowing all of the facts (which may never be known).

when a yellow flag is shown on a race track, 99% of the time, there's been an accident. that means there's going to be a few unknowns on the racing line- marshals, emergency vehicles, debris strewn across the track, people on the track tending to a driver/cleaning up debris/waving flags, putting out fires, attaching hooks to disabled cars, etc.

as a driver (especially on a oval where the race has been most certainly neutralized and not just a corner or 2 as it may be on road courses) what you should not do on a waving yellow is hammer on the throttle and get a car sideways passing the immediate area where the accident took place.

[sitzmark]

That's the issue .. .he wasn't "walking on the track".

He was pursuing Tony Stewart, threatening him, provoking a confrontation, and erratically moving closer to passing traffic. He jumped in the way of the car leading TS, then jumped back after the car swerved. Then he jumped toward TS's line of travel and continued to move closer to the car.

If KW did something or threatened to do something that caused TS to react by throttling to take evasive action, then the responsibility is solely KW's. From what I can see of the incident, Stewart had no idea why Ward had his sights set on him and didn't approach Ward with any signs/actions of aggressiveness.

... if only KW had been walking on the track ... it would have been stupid, but probably not deadly.

[r_mutt]

That's the issue .. .he wasn't "walking on the track".

He was pursuing Tony Stewart, threatening him, provoking a confrontation, and erratically moving closer to passing traffic.

i fail to see how a man armed with nothing but a nomex suit can threaten a 1500 lb car with 800+ horsepower moving at 30-45 MPH. Stewart is just not that fragile.

[bluto]

I fail to see why a man dressed in a black nomex suit would attempt to threaten a man driving a 1500 lb vehicle in the dark while the driver has limited line of sight

[sitzmark]

i fail to see how a man armed with nothing but a nomex suit can threaten a 1500 lb car with 800+ horsepower moving at 30-45 MPH. Stewart is just not that fragile.

It’s obvious we’re not going to agree. I’m not attempting to change your opinion - just expressing mine.

In hindsight you know Kevin Ward had nothing but a Nomex suit. Tony Stewart did not at the time.

You’re convinced TS intended to do mental or physical harm to KW - either dirt shower or bodily contact- and I am not. I don’t believe TS had any intention (nor reason) for doing harm to KW unless KW instigated it. There have been “TS situations” where he has been the instigator and aggressor, and was the (most) responsible party for the outcome. From the evidence available (to me), he wasn’t that party this time.

I believe in innocent-until-proven-guilty and haven’t seen evidence to irrefutably prove guilt. What I have seen is a highly confrontational and high-risk situation manufactured solely by Kevin Ward that tragically ended in his death. For that he bears responsibility. What legal responsibility Tony Stewart has depends on what happened at that moment and why. … see statement on innocent until proven guilty.

[William]

What I have seen is a highly confrontational and high-risk situation manufactured solely by Kevin Ward that tragically ended in his death. For that he bears responsibility. What legal responsibility Tony Stewart has depends on what happened at that moment and why. … see statement on innocent until proven guilty.

First, my condolences to the families of all involved, very sad situation.

If a person pulled to the side of I-95 (or I-5), and then ran out into traffic pointing at people and ended up getting hit and killed, would people be blaming the driver of the vehicle that hit them? Again, I'm sorry the man lost his life, but he got out of his car and ran out into oncoming traffic. If he had something to take up with TS, the pits were a much safer place.

It reminds me of the crit video that was posted a few months back where a couple people went down, then as the group came around again, more riders would get caught up in it. This happened for a couple laps. In racing (bikes, cars, boats, etc...) you can get so caught up focusing on the vehicle/bikes/people in front of you that something unusual on the track may not catch your attention until it's too late. Focusing on blue and white car in front of you, knowing that there is a car spun out on the side coming up, he may not have see a guy in a dark suit, standing in a place he should not be, on a dark dirt track at night under the lights.


It also reminds me of an incident that happened when I was in HS. A friend and I were leaving at the end of the day, and we were driving out of the parking lot, two very pretty girls that we knew were in the car in front of us. We started following them and doing stupid things that teens sometimes do. At one point we were tailgating them, very close. So close that we didn't see some road construction going up on the side of the road. At the last moment the girls swerved around one of those saw-horse blinking warning lights, and we plowed it right over. Didn't see it coming up because we were so focused on the car in front of us that when they swerved, it was just there. No time to react at all. Luckily for us there were no construction workers right there. Our lives could have been very different if there had been. Lesson learned.






William

[soulspinner]

i fail to see how a man armed with nothing but a nomex suit can threaten a 1500 lb car with 800+ horsepower moving at 30-45 MPH. Stewart is just not that fragile.

Can you see he could be a threat to himself?

[r_mutt]

First, my condolences to the families of all involved, very sad situation.

If a person pulled to the side of I-95 (or I-5), and then ran out into traffic pointing at people and ended up getting hit and killed, would people be blaming the driver of the vehicle that hit them? Again, I'm sorry the man lost his life, but he got out of his car and ran out into oncoming traffic. If he had something to take up with TS, the pits were a much safer place.

William

the difference here is that there is a waving yellow flag on the course- which as i've already explained, means that there is an incident on the track and drivers should proceed with caution.

[firerescuefin]

the difference here is that there is a waving yellow flag on the course- which as i've already explained, means that there is an incident on the track and drivers should proceed with caution.

Yes caution...no, the racing line is not a safe place. Have you ever been to a Sprint car/Modified/ Midget race.

I've seen nothing in that video that shows TS wasn't proceeding with caution. It does appear that Ward was anything but cautious. I've been to hundreds of Sprint Car races. I've never seen a driver do anything as stupid as I witnessed there.

[William]

the difference here is that there is a waving yellow flag on the course- which as i've already explained, means that there is an incident on the track and drivers should proceed with caution.

Yes, caution...which does not mean stop. The cars are still moving, and the man ran into traffic.




William

[William]

By the way, what are top speeds on the track? It's not uncommon for cars to make speeds in excess of 140 mph. What's the average speed under caution? I wouldn't be surprised if it was around 50+ mph.






William

[firerescuefin]

By the way, what are top speeds on the track? It's not uncommon for cars to make speeds in excess of 140 mph. What's the average speed under caution? I wouldn't be surprised if it was around 50+ mph.


William

William, I was going to say 45...so it's close. Wide angle skews it. When you're up against the fence or in the infield, they are still clipping along pretty good.

[malcolm]

the difference here is that there is a waving yellow flag on the course- which as i've already explained, means that there is an incident on the track and drivers should proceed with caution.

I appreciate what you are trying to say, I think. I suspect you've not a motorsports fan and/or never participated.
Under caution you are looking for debris or a wrecked car. The cars are still moving quickly and quite bunched. I don't think you are expecting someone walking/running into traffic. I'll give you standing on the side or apron pointing, yelling and maybe even throwing things but moving toward bunched up moving race cars, no. I've never seen anything like it before. He's lucky the blue car in front of Stewart didn't hit him.

[r_mutt]

I appreciate what you are trying to say, I think. I suspect you've not a motorsports fan and/or never participated.
Under caution you are looking for debris or a wrecked car. The cars are still moving quickly and quite bunched.

imho, under a caution flag period, you should be ready for anything, because anything can happen. see the previous page where i list my racing resume'.

[azrider]

imho, under a caution flag period, you should be ready for anything, because anything can happen. see the previous page where i list my racing resume'.

Being under cauting and "ready for anything" does not include the stupid, deliberate, death defying actions of others.

[christian]

imho, under a caution flag period, you should be ready for anything, because anything can happen. see the previous page where i list my racing resume'.Then why is there a red flag?

[93legendti]

I have road raced motorcycles for 6 years. I have unfortunately witnessed racers die and get maimed on the racetrack. I know exactly what the dangers are on a hot track.

I have followed F1, Indycars (CART), MotoGP (500GP) and WSBK for over 20 years religiously.

I have also road raced bicycles for 7 years and counting.

How many times did you walk perpendicular to traffic on a hot track while pursuing a driver in a moving car?


How many times did you walk perpendicular to traffic on a hot track while pursuing a driver on a moving bicycle?

[soulspinner]

how many times did you walk perpendicular to traffic on a hot track while pursuing a driver in a moving car?


How many times did you walk perpendicular to traffic on a hot track while pursuing a driver on a moving bicycle?

bang

[r_mutt]

Then why is there a red flag?

a red flag is to stop the race completely- for instance when there is debris or something on the racing line that can't be cleared safely or when there's a severe injury on the track that requires medical attention. during a red flag, the track is not hot.

btw - i am not claiming that Ward is not at fault in this unfortunate incident, but Stewart clearly revs his motor as he passes Ward and kicks his sprint car sideways. is that normal behavior passing an accident site under a caution flag?

we will probably never know what happened as there are no on-board cameras and/or telemetry, but in my eyes, it sure looks like Stewart did not act properly.

[malcolm]

a red flag is to stop the race completely- for instance when there is debris or something on the racing line that can't be cleared safely or when there's a severe injury on the track that requires medical attention. during a red flag, the track is not hot.

btw - i am not claiming that Ward is not at fault in this unfortunate incident, but Stewart clearly revs his motor as he passes Ward and kicks his sprint car sideways. is that normal behavior passing an accident site under a caution flag?

we will probably never know what happened as there are no on-board cameras and/or telemetry, but in my eyes, it sure looks like Stewart did not act properly.

I'm not saying Stewart didn't do what you say, but I don't necessarily see that when I watch the video. It looks to me like most of the movement of the car was after contact. Honestly from the angle I've seen it's hard to tell what happened. Even prior to the accident it doesn't look to me like Stewart put him in the wall. It looks like Stewart held his line and the other car had too much speed for so wide a line in the apex of a corner. Holding your line is racing. Not that that matters.

[William]

I'm not saying Stewart didn't do what you say, but I don't necessarily see that when I watch the video. It looks to me like most of the movement of the car was after contact. Honestly from the angle I've seen it's hard to tell what happened. Even prior to the accident it doesn't look to me like Stewart put him in the wall. It looks like Stewart held his line and the other car had too much speed for so wide a line in the apex of a corner. Holding your line is racing. Not that that matters.

As someone else who wasn't there (like all of us here), I feel pretty much the same way.

Still say it was sad event all the way around.




William

[firerescuefin]

I've watched that video numerous times. I don't think the motor you're hearing is Stewarts. That's debateable.

His car kick sidewayss after Ward goes under the right rear tire. That is not debatable.

Do you have any idea the stagger these guys run on these cars or how they are steered, or how they handle on a banked clay/dirt track or the visibility or how limited right side visibility is?

He had NO IDEA THAT SOMEONE WAS GOING TO RUN IN FRONT OF HIS CAR. Is that a hard concept to grasp. I've never seen it happen. It wasn't even a contentious incident. They hadn't been going back and forth. There was nothing for Tony to be worked out about and there was no reason for him to expect that Ward would be mad. There are no radio comms in this type of racing. Tony came around under yellow, expecting nothing and some dude is running down into the racing line as he is behind the guy that swerves around him...C'mon man.


a red flag is to stop the race completely- for instance when there is debris or something on the racing line that can't be cleared safely or when there's a severe injury on the track that requires medical attention. during a red flag, the track is not hot.

btw - i am not claiming that Ward is not at fault in this unfortunate incident, but Stewart clearly revs his motor as he passes Ward and kicks his sprint car sideways. is that normal behavior passing an accident site under a caution flag?

we will probably never know what happened as there are no on-board cameras and/or telemetry, but in my eyes, it sure looks like Stewart did not act properly.

[sitzmark]

For anyone interested, someone with a long resume of sprint car experience speaks on the incident ...

http://www.motorsport.com/nascar-cup/news/sprint-car-champion-and-nascar-crew-chief-weighs-in-on-canandaigua-tragedy/

[Bruce K]

And as the article states NASCAR has addressed the issue

But has also been stated, thus was not a NASCAR sanctioned event

BK

[firerescuefin]

For anyone interested, someone with a long resume of sprint car experience speaks on the incident ...

http://www.motorsport.com/nascar-cup/news/sprint-car-champion-and-nascar-crew-chief-weighs-in-on-canandaigua-tragedy/

Great article linked. Read this.

[cfox]

Just a follow up on this tragedy. Stewart will (rightly, imo) not be charged with anything. In other news, Kevin Ward was baked at the time of his death. The tox report showed a level of weed in his system enough to impair judgement. Ward's family is going to sue Stewart, naturally, but I have to imagine the tox report will put a major dent in their suit.

[torquer]

"Ward's family is going to sue Stewart..."
I think there's still some impaired judgement at play here.

[gemship]

"Ward's family is going to sue Stewart..."
I think there's still some impaired judgement at play here.

Yes but the Ward family most likely has a greedy lawyer fighting hard on their side who just can't resist digging into Stewart's deep pockets.

[dzxc]

Exactly. They see this as an opportunity to make money, at least in settlement.

[oldpotatoe]

Yes but the Ward family most likely has a greedy lawyer fighting hard on their side who just can't resist digging into Stewart's deep pockets.

Of course and the 'settlement' will be less $ than Stewart taking it to court, altho I would be tempted. Guy racing while stoned, amazing.

[dzxc]

Of course and the 'settlement' will be less $ than Stewart taking it to court, altho I would be tempted. Guy racing while stoned, amazing.

Right. I'm thinking they'll settle rather than spend the money on court legal fees and the chance of losing big.

[PETER REID]

Tony Stewart will have to live with himself over this….. He will make the choices that he needs to do. I see counselling in his future.

[Rada]

I'm curious if anyone has actually seen the tox report?

[cfox]

I'm curious if anyone has actually seen the tox report?

The grand jury did. Do they make full tox reports public?

[dzxc]

They sometimes do, or they're leaked.

[torquer]

Right. I'm thinking they'll settle rather than spend the money on court legal fees and the chance of losing big.
The problem with contingency lawsuits in cases like this is that the family risks nothing monetarily, it's the plaintiff's lawyer who risks his/her time against a potential share of the award or settlement, and will often advise the plaintiff to settle.
The family may lose, though, by exposing Ward's tox report, etc., risking dragging his name through the mud. Hence my "impaired judgement" comment.

[93legendti]

A few things might happen before the expert legal predictions above come true...

Plaintiffs are always responsible for costs and fees, which can be thousands of dollars depending upon the complexity and amount of experts needed...the lawyer's contingency only applies against awards/settlements-at least in Michigan. Plaintiffs are also subject to rule 11 or state law equivalent sanctions for filing merit less claims. This can be $20,000 or more in such a case as this.

So it's a little more involved then filing a complaint and cashing a check.

If contingency fees were illegal, no doubt people would claim it was "racist" against poor folk...:rolleyes:

Stewart likely has insurance and insurance companies don't like to pay out money.

[Rada]

The grand jury did. Do they make full tox reports public?

Not sure. I was just curious. He could have tested positive for marijuana and not been "baked" or had "impaired judgement" at the time as others have implied. The grand jury may have not taken the tox report into consideration at all.

[jlwdm]

DA said enough marijuana to impair judgment. Probably not a lot of marijuana. No excuse for a race car driver to ever be under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Kevin Ward will looked at a lot differently now.

Jeff

[rnhood]

DA said enough marijuana to impair judgment. Probably not a lot of marijuana. No excuse for a race car driver to ever be under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Kevin Ward will looked at a lot differently now.

Jeff

Agree. Dope & alcohol have no place among race drivers as it potentially endangers their own lives as well as others. Ward is the classic example of a dumb act one might do with impaired judgement.

If the Ward family sues, I hope they get absolutely nothing.

[Bruce K]

As someone who was a racing official I can tell you that if we even THOUGHT someone was impaired we would have yanked their butt off the track, sent them packing, and begun proceedings to keep them away.

As said before, there is no place for anything like that in competitive motorsports. It's dangerous enough as it is.

I don't think this finding will lessen TS's burden much.

BK

[Ken Robb]

Any fool who runs onto an active racetrack is at fault for whatever may happen to him or others. What if the car in front of Stewart had lost control avoiding this boob and hurt or killed other drivers, track workers or spectators? Who else could have been responsible for that?

Sorry. Call me crusty.