Are pro teams riding on ti

[wc1934]

Reading all the threads about carbon vs. ti vs. steel got me thinking - are pro teams are riding ti - A quick guess would be that most are on carbon - If that assumption is correct, why so, and who is on ti?

[joosttx]

Reading all the threads about carbon vs. ti vs. steel got me thinking - are pro teams are riding ti - A quick guess would be that most are on carbon - If that assumption is correct, why so, and who is on ti?

1) I am not a pro.
2) I get to choose the frame I ride
3) I want a light bomb proof frame

[Admiral Ackbar]

its probably been close to a decade now since pros were on metal frames? i know boonen was on a special built alloy bike at the classics some years ago, but that had to be close to 10 years ago now..

[thirdgenbird]

Some Rapha condor jlt riders were on steel last year.

[ultraman6970]

The last dude racing in Ti that I know of was lance armstrong, he used a lightspeed ti TT bike repainted as trek. Besides that dont remember anybody riding titanium after that.

Remember lotto I believe was using Aluminum ridley bikes for the cobblestones. I believe BMC did the same at some point too.

[wc1934]

1) I am not a pro.
2) I get to choose the frame I ride
3) I want a light bomb proof frame

Sorry, I did not phrase my question correctly - I was curious to know if any pro teams rode ti bikes, and if so which teams, and if not, why not.

[thirdgenbird]

Wasn't the bianchi impulso (aluminum) used on the cobbles in the last few years?


Lance's litespeed was the last ti bike I can recall, but there could have been more after.

[oldpotatoe]

Reading all the threads about carbon vs. ti vs. steel got me thinking - are pro teams are riding ti - A quick guess would be that most are on carbon - If that assumption is correct, why so, and who is on ti?

Carbon 100%, win on Sunday, sell on Monday.....carbon cuz it's cheap to manufacture, with big margins, in spite of initial R&D and cost of molds.

[jimoots]

Nobody rides it because none of the 'mainstream' manufacturers produce a titanium frameset.

Frame choice for the pros is a decision based upon who will pay the most money. Do not confuse it for a decision based upon performance.

Carbon is popular with the big boys because it's much cheaper to engineer a light carbon frameset.

[bikinchris]

Teams ride what the manufacturers want to sell. That's not Ti.

[bikemoore]

With carbon frames now paying a lot of attention to aerodynamics, carbon has crossed into territory where metal frames will have even more difficulty following. The arguments used to be based on weight, stiffness, ride quality, durability and cost with current carbon having no real disadvantage against any of those measures. Now aerodynamic design is giving carbon another very substantial advantage and in an area where Ti will find it extremely difficult to follow until 3D printing of Ti becomes more mature.

We have to face it….carbon is a very, very tough competitor to metal frames of any type. The pro teams aren't on carbon only because that is what their sponsors want to sell…..they eagerly ride them because they rock with light weight, stiffness in all the places, good ride quality, reliability and now lower aerodynamic drag. The bar is getting higher.

[batman1425]

Not a pro team, but Moots teamed up with Shimano to do neutral support at CX nationals when they were in Madison. Had a few friends that are hoping for a mechanical so they could upgrade for half the race! The neutral bikes were nicer than 95% of what was out there - including the pros.

[CunegoFan]

Sorry, I did not phrase my question correctly - I was curious to know if any pro teams rode ti bikes, and if so which teams, and if not, why not.

Bottom line, it's all about the benjamins. No ti frame maker can afford the $2-3 million it costs to pay a Pro Tour team to be its bike sponsor. The big companies are not interested because the profit margin on plastic is much much higher than ti.

[oldpotatoe]

With carbon frames now paying a lot of attention to aerodynamics, carbon has crossed into territory where metal frames will have even more difficulty following. The arguments used to be based on weight, stiffness, ride quality, durability and cost with current carbon having no real disadvantage against any of those measures. Now aerodynamic design is giving carbon another very substantial advantage and in an area where Ti will find it extremely difficult to follow until 3D printing of Ti becomes more mature.

We have to face it….carbon is a very, very tough competitor to metal frames of any type. The pro teams aren't on carbon only because that is what their sponsors want to sell…..they eagerly ride them because they rock with light weight, stiffness in all the places, good ride quality, reliability and now lower aerodynamic drag. The bar is getting higher.

But mostly what their sponsors want to sell.

[Mikej]

I would say it's more about the marketing of carbon frames, not really the cost. If spesh and Truk decided to make ti, I'm sure they could streamline and reduce costs and make a pretty good profit. BUT, you can only do so much to make a ti frame look different than last years model. And that it what it's about. An engineer can change any aspect of a carbon frame to look different and better, with claims of stiffer, more compliant, etc. Ti, not so much. Also, carbon is stiffer and transfers power better than ti, we all have to admit that. Plus ti is way more durable, leading to less sales in the long run. Carbon, not as durable. Longtime ti rider, never had a carbon bike -

[zap]

I would say it's more about the marketing of carbon frames, not really the cost. If spesh and Truk decided to make ti, I'm sure they could streamline and reduce costs and make a pretty good profit. BUT, you can only do so much to make a ti frame look different than last years model. And that it what it's about. An engineer can change any aspect of a carbon frame to look different and better, with claims of stiffer, more compliant, etc. Ti, not so much. Also, carbon is stiffer and transfers power better than ti, we all have to admit that. Plus ti is way more durable, leading to less sales in the long run. Carbon, not as durable. Longtime ti rider, never had a carbon bike -

Trek did make a few Lemond Ti & Ti/carbon composite frames.

Now, about the durability of Ti frames………everything breaks and I have never seen a crack propagate faster than titanium.

[bikemoore]

But mostly what their sponsors want to sell.

But what else would they sell? Take a look at any brand sponsoring world tour teams. They don't have another line of bikes that they could put their sponsored teams on. Carbon bikes are what they make, market and sell. Some of them have aluminum frames for the lower end of their retail lineup, but its not realistic to expect them to use those for world tour sponsorship. Its not like they have Ti bikes sitting around that they could put their teams on but choose not to because the profit margin is greater for their carbon bikes. They are all in on carbon. I don't understand what people think the alternative is to current domination of carbon. Carbon is winning the war because of what it does and can do, not because marketers prefer it.

[1centaur]

For those who happily repeat the line that carbon fiber bikes have much higher margins, could you specify the margins (gross and operating income, which would include the R&D and tooling amortization) for several carbon frame makers and your sources? Or are you just making assumptions because Asian counterfeits are available at lower prices than low-run US Ti makers' frames? And if it was all about margins, why not stick with aluminum, where even US-made-Cannondale prices on CAAD9s were under $500 retail if you had a good connection.

[lhuerta]

Lance's litespeed was the last ti bike I can recall, but there could have been more after.

...also, Michele Bartoli and his deep saddle to bar drop on a Colnago CT1 (Ti/carbon), in late 90s.

[Rada]

If you don't think marketing has anything to do with it just take a look at the geometry of Tour bikes. They are designed more to sell to a market than they are for the guys actually racing.

[bikemoore]

If you don't think marketing has anything to do with it just take a look at the geometry of Tour bikes. They are designed more to sell to a market than they are for the guys actually racing.

I'm not saying that marketing has nothing to do with it. Of course it does. Marketing is why the companies sponsor teams in the first place. And of course the companies are aware of the visibility that sponsorship will give to certain models. But why can't the companies' decisions on which bikes to use in sponsorship support both the racer and marketing? They are trying to market their best bikes….which also happen to be their best choices for the racers. The two concepts (what works and what sells) are not exclusive.

[ptourkin]

Mo Bruno Roy races on a ti Seven Mudhoney SLX.
Edit: It's a ti/carbon mix

[Rada]

I'm not saying that marketing has nothing to do with it. Of course it does. Marketing is why the companies sponsor teams in the first place. And of course the companies are aware of the visibility that sponsorship will give to certain models. But why can't the companies' decisions on which bikes to use in sponsorship support both the racer and marketing? They are trying to market their best bikes….which also happen to be their best choices for the racers. The two concepts (what works and what sells) are not exclusive.

Neither is profit margin. Why do you think car companies were pushing SUV's to people who really didn't need them.

[bikemoore]

And neither is profit margin. You are correct. But just because they make money on a model doesn't make it the wrong choice for the racers.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[oldpotatoe]

But what else would they sell? Take a look at any brand sponsoring world tour teams. They don't have another line of bikes that they could put their sponsored teams on. Carbon bikes are what they make, market and sell. Some of them have aluminum frames for the lower end of their retail lineup, but its not realistic to expect them to use those for world tour sponsorship. Its not like they have Ti bikes sitting around that they could put their teams on but choose not to because the profit margin is greater for their carbon bikes. They are all in on carbon. I don't understand what people think the alternative is to current domination of carbon. Carbon is winning the war because of what it does and can do, not because marketers prefer it.

But why the domination? Is it because it is such a wunder-material or can it be 'tuned'?(to whom tho?)..or is it because the makers have figured out they can make a whizbang product and make a BUNCH of $ on each one. Probably all 3 or 4 or 5....carbon is cheaper to make than aluminum...they can provide some to pro teams and then sell a bunch of them when Nibali wins the TdF on a Spec-ed.

It is 'winning' because it is very cost effective to make, use for sponsors, and sell. It's a bicycle, not a part of a 200 MPH F-1 chassis or the tail of a F/A-18.

Like a team mate of Eddy once said, 'Eddy can win on my bike, I can't win on his'..in the grand scheme of bike things, just about any of the 4 major materials will work just fine, as a bicycle. Nobody is going to lose a race because the frame was steel or ti rather than carbon....BUT that carbon is one hellavalot cheaper to make....

[redir]

Yeah but If Ti was so great, and as a Moots owner I love it, then pro's would be on Ti bikes re-branded as carbon ones yeah? They certainly have a history of riding what they think is the best regardless of what the sponsor is selling as long as they can slap their sticker on it for the camera's.

[fourflys]

But mostly what their sponsors want to sell.

yep...

As Old P alluded to above, any bike manufacturer is a business and they are in the business to make money... the big companies like Trek, Spec., Giant, etc have seen that they can make a carbon bike for very little when the cost is spread our over hundreds of thousands of frames... economies of scale and all that... if someone is getting paid to ride their bike, they're going to ride what their sponsor tells them... are advantages to carbon for those at the very top of the sport? sure, but they also have a somewhat unlimited supply of frames...

Don't get me wrong, I have a carbon Ibis Hakalugi and really like it... but I also love the fact that a company like Moots (which is on my short list) can make a living selling Ti... or a shop like Black Mountain Cycles can do the same with steel...

for the big companies, it will always be "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday"... it's really just good business for them...

[oldpotatoe]

Yeah but If Ti was so great, and as a Moots owner I love it, then pro's would be on Ti bikes re-branded as carbon ones yeah? They certainly have a history of riding what they think is the best regardless of what the sponsor is selling as long as they can slap their sticker on it for the camera's.

Maybe they are????

[fourflys]

Yeah but If Ti was so great, and as a Moots owner I love it, then pro's would be on Ti bikes re-branded as carbon ones yeah? They certainly have a history of riding what they think is the best regardless of what the sponsor is selling as long as they can slap their sticker on it for the camera's.

not real sure that works anymore since the tube sizes/shapes are dramatically different now... :)

[Chris]

BUT that carbon is one hellavalot cheaper to make....

And...faster

[bfd]

its probably been close to a decade now since pros were on metal frames? i know boonen was on a special built alloy bike at the classics some years ago, but that had to be close to 10 years ago now..

Yup, the last steel bike to win a championship is Dede Berry's steel bike (w/ carbon fork):

"I wanted a steel bike, for durability and strength, with the vintage Mariposa
lugs. He (Mike Berry, here father-in-law) ordered the lightest steel available,
pieced it together with the lugs, placed a lightweight, stiff carbon fork on it
and painted the whole bike, including the stem and fork, light and royal blue.
We chose Campagnolo components and he had it all built up for me in two weeks, just in time to get dialed in on it before the race."

"I fielded several questions in the press conferences after the race regarding
my bike. I believe I am the last rider to have won a World Cup race on a steel
bike and perhaps the only rider in the world to win a World Cup on a bike made within the family."

http://www.bikespecialties.com/images/01.jpg

[Cicli]

And...faster

Faster as in riding, faster as in production or faster to end up in the garbage?

[djg21]

Yeah but If Ti was so great, and as a Moots owner I love it, then pro's would be on Ti bikes re-branded as carbon ones yeah? They certainly have a history of riding what they think is the best regardless of what the sponsor is selling as long as they can slap their sticker on it for the camera's.

This just isn't feasible. How would you make a Ti bike look like a molded aero plastic bike? Ti tubes could be painted to look like a production steel frame, but the technology doesn't exist to fashion a frame from Ti tubes that looks like a modern carbon frame.

As an aside, part of the allure of Ti is the fact that it is durable and impervious to the elements. The pros don't really care. Their bikes are readily replaceable at no cost to them. Carbon frames can be fabricated to perform like the pros want, perhaps at the expense of durability. There is no longer a need for them to have Ti bikes made for them.

I have a lot of trouble believing that the pro tour riders are riding production frames. My sense is a lot of the frame/fork/steerer failures weve seen in the pro peleton have resulted from the fact that the pros are on bikes optimized for performance. Their bikes are essentially disposable and can be replaced after a single use.

[Chris]

Faster as in riding, faster as in production or faster to end up in the garbage?

To manufacture. Sorry for the ambiguity... :)

[cnighbor1]

I been riding the California Bay area since 2000
Ti was the choice of a lot of riders in early 2000's
Now I see very little Ti used I ride a Litespeed once in while
I see more Aluminum and steel than ti
I see maybe 2 to 3 ti a week
I see over 50% carbon fiber

[dogdriver]

Funny you mention this-- two days ago, three Shimano cars drove by, each with eight or so Moots road bikes on top. Turns out that Shimano/Moots are doing the neutral support. My unethical side started plotting, but, alas, the bikes were stashed in the Shimano trailers at the hotel, no doubt under shoot-to kill guard. Didn't get close enough to see the details, but saw Moots/Enve x 24.

[Ti Designs]

are pro teams are riding ti?

Define a pro team. OK, let's take this one step back - define a pro.

[cnighbor1]

Define a pro team. OK, let's take this one step back - define a pro.

Lance Armstrong

[cnighbor1]

Funny you mention this-- two days ago, three Shimano cars drove by, each with eight or so Moots road bikes on top. Turns out that Shimano/Moots are doing the neutral support. My unethical side started plotting, but, alas, the bikes were stashed in the Shimano trailers at the hotel, no doubt under shoot-to kill guard. Didn't get close enough to see the details, but saw Moots/Enve x 24.

at years end maybe FS would love one

[Ti Designs]

Lance Armstrong

It's not about the bike...

[e-RICHIE]

Since some of this stuff is actually cached, and becomes fact for the generation after the next one, one correction atmo.
Those are not vintage Mariposa lugs. I designed those parts for Bridgestone Bicycle Company, and they finally became a
reality when Rivendell Bicycles started using them. The details of that project are embedded here (http://www.richardsachs.com/site/rs-framebuilding-material/).



Yup, the last steel bike to win a championship is Dede Berry's steel bike (w/ carbon fork):

"I wanted a steel bike, for durability and strength, with the vintage Mariposa
lugs. He (Mike Berry, here father-in-law) ordered the lightest steel available,
pieced it together with the lugs, <cut>

http://www.bikespecialties.com/images/01.jpg

[jimoots]

But what else would they sell? Take a look at any brand sponsoring world tour teams. They don't have another line of bikes that they could put their sponsored teams on. Carbon bikes are what they make, market and sell. Some of them have aluminum frames for the lower end of their retail lineup, but its not realistic to expect them to use those for world tour sponsorship. Its not like they have Ti bikes sitting around that they could put their teams on but choose not to because the profit margin is greater for their carbon bikes. They are all in on carbon. I don't understand what people think the alternative is to current domination of carbon. Carbon is winning the war because of what it does and can do, not because marketers prefer it.

I would say it's more about the marketing of carbon frames, not really the cost. If spesh and Truk decided to make ti, I'm sure they could streamline and reduce costs and make a pretty good profit. BUT, you can only do so much to make a ti frame look different than last years model. And that it what it's about. An engineer can change any aspect of a carbon frame to look different and better, with claims of stiffer, more compliant, etc. Ti, not so much. Also, carbon is stiffer and transfers power better than ti, we all have to admit that. Plus ti is way more durable, leading to less sales in the long run. Carbon, not as durable. Longtime ti rider, never had a carbon bike -

The raw materials and marginal cost to produce a carbon fibre frame are much, much cheaper than to make a titanium frame.

The greatest trick the bicycle industry ever played was convincing the great unwashed that carbon fibre is an exotic, unobtainium, titanium-esque material. They managed to lower unit costs and increase price in one fell swoop.

And I mean, let's get this straight.

A bike is a bike and close enough is almost always good enough. The pros would kick butt on bamboo if that's what the industry decided to push.

And the rest of us would take the bait hook line and sinker.

[stronzo]

I have a lot of trouble believing that the pro tour riders are riding production frames. My sense is a lot of the frame/fork/steerer failures weve seen in the pro peleton have resulted from the fact that the pros are on bikes optimized for performance. Their bikes are essentially disposable and can be replaced after a single use.

I remember someone telling me it's a UCI rule that everything the pros race has to be stuff the public can buy.

[fourflys]

I remember someone telling me it's a UCI rule that everything the pros race has to be stuff the public can buy.

that might be correct, but it's the same as a car manufacturer having to sell XX number of cars to have that model in the race.... it doesn't mean you can go into your local Ford dealer and buy that Nascar....

[macaroon]

Most pros ride stock frames. Some of the big names (Sagan, Boonen, Fabian et al) usually ride custom frames.

Carbon is cheap, quick, light, strong, stiff etc. There's no wonder thats what the industry uses. The nature of it means they can tweak next seasons design/look slightly and then make outlandish claims about performance increases that the public will buy into.

Steel and Ti technology has probably topped out. There's onyl so much you can do with a set of tubes.

Who knows what's next? 3D printing? I also read about some wonder material a while ago that was supposed to be incredibly strong and light, can't remember it's name though (no, it's not carbon fibre :) )

[soulspinner]

I guess Ivan Basso has a ti rig (or had) to train on.

[wc1934]

Most pros ride stock frames. Some of the big names (Sagan, Boonen, Fabian et al) usually ride custom frames.

Carbon is cheap, quick, light, strong, stiff etc. There's no wonder thats what the industry uses. The nature of it means they can tweak next seasons design/look slightly and then make outlandish claims about performance increases that the public will buy into.

Steel and Ti technology has probably topped out. There's onyl so much you can do with a set of tubes.

Who knows what's next? 3D printing? I also read about some wonder material a while ago that was supposed to be incredibly strong and light, can't remember it's name though (no, it's not carbon fibre :) )

bamboo