What is wrong with square taper? [Archive]

Headwinds

03-02-2006, 09:17 AM

I read the following on the campyonly web site:

February 24, 2006--The blog world is bubbling with rumors of the impending release of an entirely new Campagnolo crankset design. The design, per rumor, has bearings outside the bottom shell and a two-piece spindle that mates in the middle, inside the bottom bracket. So far, no photos ... to read a blog: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=720094#720094

Frankly, I do not know what could possibly be wrong with the current Campy design? Is it a question of weight? I actually made the mistake of trying out some ISIS BB and crankset combination to save weight, but I must say, I gained a lot of grief and wasted my time with the new stuff! I had to replace the BB every 1000 miles or so, and after 3 bb's I gave up. I never had a single problem with the standard Campy BB's. I was told by the LBS to give a try to the new BB/cranksets that are one piece (FSA K Force), but I am not saving any weight with this combination. So I have gone back to the Campy Carbon crankset and the Phil Wood BB.

In 2004 when I was using Phil Wood bb's I took it apart to service it after 5000 miles.... Service what?!! The BB was intact!

I surely hope that whatever campy comes up in the future, is not going to be as useless or wasteful, as what I have seen from others.

Cheers!

ergott

03-02-2006, 09:30 AM

What's wrong with square, are you square or something???

Don't you know, it's not fashionable anymore. It's stale, it's yesterday, man. :p

Too Tall

03-02-2006, 09:31 AM

Coals to NewCastle.
Hear Hear.

Fixed

03-02-2006, 09:44 AM

bro nothing i.m.h.o. cheers :beer:

Grant McLean

03-02-2006, 10:01 AM

I surely hope that whatever campy does is not going to be as wasteful and useless as what i have seen from others.

Cheers!

I hope the same thing. I'm always up for whatever is new and cool from campy,
so I hope they get this one right. Considering how long they've been doing
the same 102mm record bb, and the fact that it works just great the way
it is, they better not take a step in the wrong direction. The fact that from
a marketing perspective they are coming very late to the party with a new
design, hopefully they took into consideration the problems with the other
stuff out there, and have come up with something slick.

-g

zank

03-02-2006, 10:20 AM

In 2004 when I was using Phil Wood bb's I took it apart to service it after 5000 miles.... Service what?!! The BB was intact!

Cheers!

I hear ya. I am in the process of transitioning all of my bikes and my wife's bikes to Phil Wood BBs. After that investment, I may stock up on cranksets for the years to come. Square-taper cranksets are all that I have for road, cross, MTB and soon-to-be fixie and SS MTB. It just happens the cranksets I like are also square-taper (Campagnolo road and pista, ENO, Race Face...). Go figure.

Too Tall

03-02-2006, 01:03 PM

Square taper will be around for sometime AND ISIS is the real deal. Tsk! It is a shame folks have troubles installing to spec. thus a great deal of misunderstanding and premature failure(s). Krikey, Znfndl just handed me a GORGEOUS Stronglite Pulsion triple to install...it uses ISIS. I told him to buy the FSA Plat. Pro. Same thing I've run in the race tandem for several yrs...zero maintenance.

Square taper is just fine, leave it alone. ISIS is just fine, no socks appeal but it works great..leave it alone. External bearings...I have a problem with.

Some time back I heard the new Campag. was 110 bcd non? That in itself is reason to BELIEVE in the great Italian throne of cyclisym.

Dave B

03-02-2006, 01:22 PM

Any thoughts then on clydesdales using anything but external bearing BB?

I thought the new design was to create less strees on bearings and provide stiffer feeling.

Oh man, I walked into the bad joke.

Point being will the new 2 piece cranks offer "more" stiffness for a fat guy.

zank

03-02-2006, 01:33 PM

Some time back I heard the new Campag. was 110 bcd non? That in itself is reason to BELIEVE in the great Italian throne of cyclisym.

Yes, Centaur aluminum compact is 110 mm BCD. My wife is using it on her cross bike in single ring form with Spot 110 mm guards and a 34 tooth ring.

Headwinds

03-02-2006, 02:32 PM

It is a shame folks have troubles installing to spec. thus a great deal of misunderstanding and premature failure(s)....

Stronglite Pulsion triple to install...it uses ISIS. I told him to buy the FSA Plat. Pro. Same thing I've run in the race tandem for several yrs...zero maintenance.

Yeah, the Pulsion double was the crankset I was using. By the way, the wrenches at my LBS are very knowledgeable and I have seen them follow Stronglight's specs to the period. But no results for me.... We tried an American Classic ISIS BB, also on the Pulsion. I got a few more miles on this one, but still no overall good results...

So, I gather we go with what we have found that works.... for me, I am never going back to ISIS!

gdw

03-02-2006, 02:41 PM

Too Tall,
ISIS might work on road bikes under ideal conditions but certainly isn't reliable offroad. The bearings in most all models aren't very well sealed or have quality control problems, including the FSA Plat. Pro, and start to grind all too quickly when exposed to moisture. The big boys hate it, Specialized, Cannondale, Ritchey, etc, and dropped it in favor of octilink on their oem and aftermarket cranksets and there are a number of honest to goodness pro mechanics out there who know how to install it and can't stand it.

cinelli

03-02-2006, 02:58 PM

Square taper is so....2005.

Ray

03-02-2006, 03:10 PM

Square taper is just fine, leave it alone. ISIS is just fine, no socks appeal but it works great..leave it alone. External bearings...I have a problem with.
What's wrong with the external bearing systems? I never had a problem with square taper, so everything that's come since has been un-necessary imho, but still workable. I've been using Octalink without any problems, haven't tried ISIS (because of all of the reports of bearing failures) and figured that the way things are going, the next time I need a crank it's likely to be the external bearing sort. Aside from being a solution to a non-existant problem, is there anything wrong with the external bearings?

-Ray

Fixed

03-02-2006, 03:17 PM

bro they seem o.k. it takes a little time to get used to their looks though i.m.h.o. cheers

zank

03-02-2006, 03:25 PM

Aside from being a solution to a non-existant problem, is there anything wrong with the external bearings?

-Ray

Nothing that I have seen so far.

CalfeeFly

03-02-2006, 04:33 PM

Nothing wrong at all with Square Taper...Campy's present take is a square taper gives you a greater contact surface area.

I have Octalink and as long as you know how to install Octalink it works fine. My external bearing FSA does as well.

My theory is Isis got a bad rap because so many people fought the FSA bottom bracket. Unfortunately their first generation of them had a bearing problem. It was fixed but a whole bunch were still out in the marketplace somewhere and people continued to buy them and have problems.

I was told this by FSA. They then had redesigned the bearings and reported that it should be fine now. I haven't spoken with them about their bottom brackets recently since I went with the external bearings. I did feel safe however with them since they learned from the first generation bottom brackets plus the external design was done to allow for bigger bearings.

Too Tall

03-02-2006, 05:12 PM

No worries. Most of the problems were with folks NOT using a torque wrench to install the crank arms. They required you run them up to the steel stop...that was the "issue" with creaking. Bearing problems happened very very early...that is ancient history. FSA BBs are fantastic as are the cranks. I can't speak about the other brands..never used them.

External bearings. My problem is: increased Q, increased exposure to the elements, too much precision in the bearings YES too much!!!...and last but not least and a house fav. EVEN A BRAIN damaged single celled organism can install them...I really have issue with that. Really.

Ray

03-02-2006, 06:40 PM

External bearings. My problem is: increased Q, increased exposure to the elements, too much precision in the bearings YES too much!!!...and last but not least and a house fav. EVEN A BRAIN damaged single celled organism can install them...I really have issue with that. Really.
Makes sense that increased Q could be a problem, but I wasn't aware that it was. Anyone know what the Q factors of the Shimano doubles are? I think the FSAs are listed at 147, which isn't the best I've seen, but doesn't suck. My Ritchey Octalinks are about 143, but Ritcheys have always had low Q - my old square taper compacts are less than 140. Hadn't thought about exposure to the elements, but that makes sense too.

Thanks,

-Ray

bpm

03-02-2006, 08:33 PM

I haven't measured it, but as I understand it, the Q factor for the 10 speed DA crankset is the same as the 9 speed.

I'm a huge fan of the 10 speed design. Ridiculously easy to install, and I have about 8,000 miles on my first set of bearings with absolutely no problems at all, and I live in New England and don't baby my bike.

jerk

03-02-2006, 08:47 PM

the jerk doesn't really care, but if bb shell sizes stay the same, square taper allows the use of the largest bearings. unfortunatly, manufacturer's can't make the spindles out of their favorite material, cheap aluminum if they stick to a square taper, hence isis, outboard bearings and all that jazz...the jerk really liked the zipp isis bb though....

the fact of the matter is, with the exception of shimano's new system, all these outboard bearing systems exhibit signifigantly more drag, put the pedals in the wrong place, (too wide) and aren't really all that much lighter. if boonen isn't flexing his bb spindle neither will you. campy square taper is fine, although it is nowhere near as smooth as old loose ball bottom brackets.

don't get the jerk started on ada bottom brackets. blow on it and it spun forever. unfortunatly, there aren't going to be any more of those for a while.

jerk

Grant McLean

03-02-2006, 08:57 PM

if boonen isn't flexing his bb spindle neither will you.

Boonen? ....what does he know about riding?

jerk

03-02-2006, 09:22 PM

he doesn't know that those handlebars he's using are mp.

jerk

Grant McLean

03-02-2006, 09:30 PM

he doesn't know that those handlebars he's using are mp.

jerk

and that's the difference between Tom and me,
he finds his bars mp, I find climbing the Muur mp,
which aparently from the look on his face, he does not!

-g

jerk

03-02-2006, 09:52 PM

and that's the difference between Tom and me,
he finds his bars mp, I find climbing the Muur mp,
which aparently from the look on his face, he does not!

-g

that stupid thing is in half of the races that take place in belgium....the secret to climbing it is to make it take as short an amount of time as possible....this sounds self evident, but it isn't you just got to attack it out of the saddle and you'll get up it and it'll be over with, untill the next time you have to climb the thing. it's not long enough to really kill you, and big guys can drop pure climbers on it if you just work it right...the jerk loves and hates that road...in good form there's nothing better than the feeling of dropping some midget on a road like that, but if you're not in form it sucks....

jerk

coylifut

03-02-2006, 10:07 PM

that stupid thing is in half of the races that take place in belgium....the secret to climbing it is to make it take as short an amount of time as possible....this sounds self evident, but it isn't you just got to attack it out of the saddle and you'll get up it and it'll be over with, untill the next time you have to climb the thing. it's not long enough to really kill you, and big guys can drop pure climbers on it if you just work it right...the jerk loves and hates that road...in good form there's nothing better than the feeling of dropping some midget on a road like that, but if you're not in form it sucks....

jerk

How long is it?

Tommasini

03-02-2006, 10:19 PM

Darrell

03-03-2006, 12:46 AM

Snipped the jerk said campy square taper is fine, although it is nowhere near as smooth as old loose ball bottom brackets.

jerk

Agreed, nothing is as cool as the self aligning cone and ball system for smoothness.
Good seals and a grease port and one will have a BB that will run forever.
But that is not commercially correct in today's market place.
And for those out there who think you go faster because you have oversize BB axles you need to train harder race tougher! Get HUNGRY!

dbrk

03-03-2006, 07:05 AM

Most outboard systems have ok Q factors because the manufactureres are so aware of that issue. What is the problem is the cranks where they attach to the spindle are much wider than the current Campy and older Shimano cranks. This means ankles and shoes rubbing the crank arms because of poor clearance there. Take a look sometime and compare.

Yes. The Q adjustment is another contribution of Grant Petersen who not only coined the term (as in "quack", of course, because crankarms too outboard make you pedal like a duck) but also brought attention to the matter as manufacturers increased Q so that it would work on just about anything (more outboard, less chance of rub/complications for fitting). We usually credit Grant for oldschool innovations and revivals (650B!!) but here his influence is keenly felt in the design of cranks that are little like the ones he generally favors. Less Q is usually good Q. Thank goodness this has sunk in...at least a little.

I'm not in the market for any of these cranks but the reason they are sold is because the people who want you to buy them are telling you that they are better than what they were selling you last year. This is not quite the same as Ray put it, i.e., the solution to a non-existent problem, because it would be a problem for the makers if folks didn't spend more money to "upgrade."

dbrk
yikes, this one sounded cynical _and_ bitter, I better get out for a ride...

Too Tall

03-03-2006, 07:28 AM

Oh relax Douglas nobody here finds fault in a good rant :)
On a related note. I'm rebuilding a bike for a pal to resell. I'm taking his SRMs off and installing "anything decent"...that's a quote. I sent a note to 30 of my closest riding pals to see who had what and three of my friends called with good news. All three offered me DA square taper cranks in good shape! Crazy. I now have a virtually new set of DA square taper cranks that are more elegant, lighter and easier to adjust that what replaced it...trust me. Tch. Haha, the cranks are so nice I think I'll keep them and instead polish up a set of Chorus cranks that are doing nothing ;)

Senor ' POTF'inDay. Made my day....the bit about dropping midgets...yeah it's like that sometimes...payback mtn.:
"that stupid thing is in half of the races that take place in belgium....the secret to climbing it is to make it take as short an amount of time as possible....this sounds self evident, but it isn't you just got to attack it out of the saddle and you'll get up it and it'll be over with, untill the next time you have to climb the thing. it's not long enough to really kill you, and big guys can drop pure climbers on it if you just work it right...the jerk loves and hates that road...in good form there's nothing better than the feeling of dropping some midget on a road like that, but if you're not in form it sucks...."

zank

03-03-2006, 07:38 AM

Haha, the cranks are so nice I think I'll keep them and instead polish up a set of Chorus cranks that are doing nothing ;)

TT, are they the new 4-arm Chorus or the old 5-arm Chorus? If you are looking to unload any old 5-arm Chorus in 172.5, I'm your man!

palincss

03-03-2006, 11:25 AM

I'm not in the market for any of these cranks but the reason they are sold is because the people who want you to buy them are telling you that they are better than what they were selling you last year. This is not quite the same as Ray put it, i.e., the solution to a non-existent problem, because it would be a problem for the makers if folks didn't spend more money to "upgrade."

And from what I've read, they are indeed better than what they were selling you last year... because what they were selling you last year (octalink, pipe billet spindles, etc.) had "issues" because as they enlarged the diameter of the spindle they had to make the balls in the bearing smaller, since the bottom bracket shell is only so big. (This new design allows them to work around that obstacle by moving the bearings outboard.)

Of course, what they were selling last year was inferior to the old square taper bottom bracket in some significant ways. :crap: