Michael Barry

[ntb1001]

Looks like Michael Barry has started building the Mariposa frames.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/02/utypu4uh.jpg

[fiamme red]

Interesting. Do you have any more information?

They have a few nice bikes on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/bicyclespecialtiesvintage/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25&_trksid=p3692).

[ntb1001]

He is restarting his dads old buisiness.

[oldpotatoe]

He is restarting his dads old buisiness.

A Canadian hincapie, no thanks.

[zzy]

A Canadian hincapie, no thanks.

His dad was one of the best framebuilders in the business. Mike is an excellent writer who has been very open about the situation post-lance. I'm really excited to see what he comes up with.

[christian]

Mike is an excellent writer who has been very open about the situation post-lance.Yeah, but not exactly pre-Lance. Come on, we all know the "but he's such a nice guy shtick with Barry." but he did the same calculus as everyone else and told the magical we all cleaned up in 2006 story. I wish him the best with the bikes, but let's not pretend he's any less culpable than the other riders who doped.

We can all agree Mike Sr. was one of the best builders ever. Is, I suppose, since he's still living, if not building.

[zzy]

I hear ya, I think it's think it's time people put down the pitchforks and torches and move on. Omerta was the name of the game back then. At least he's doing what he can to talk about it and profess guilt in a constructive way. Not that he's any less guilty though.

[christian]

I agree, and I think it's commendable that Michael is doing something with bikes, but that doesn't latch onto the pro racing circus.

[ntb1001]

I don't like how he flipped to benefit himself either. . .but his dad built some of nicest frames in existence, and his shop was incredible.
It's nice to see the torch be passed on to his son...I wish him success with the shop and Mariposa.

[Black Dog]

He never came fully clean. He told the sanitized story of his doping about it ending in 2006. BS. If you want to write and have some credibility just come clean and move on. Self serving half measures do not cut it. He is a bit of a Canuck Hincapie.

[Anarchist]

His dad was one of the best framebuilders in the business. Mike is an excellent writer who has been very open about the situation post-lance. I'm really excited to see what he comes up with.

He really isn't an "excellent writer" either.

[Chris]

That's dope!

[oldpotatoe]

I hear ya, I think it's think it's time people put down the pitchforks and torches and move on. Omerta was the name of the game back then. At least he's doing what he can to talk about it and profess guilt in a constructive way. Not that he's any less guilty though.

If ya like his stuff, groovy. Support it all you want but he is benefiting from his cycling past, in spite of being a cheater and liar. Not for me, thanks.

[Md3000]

Can i ask something? What does frame building have to do with doping? Suppose he was in the milkman business now, would you not buy milk from him? I'm just asking!

[oldpotatoe]

Can i ask something? What does frame building have to do with doping? Suppose he was in the milkman business now, would you not buy milk from him? I'm just asking!

Nope. I 'lived', worked with a thief and liar for 10 years. In spite of being a 'nice guy', and 'coming clean', sorta, I would never buy his frame nor would I buy Hincapie clothes. Both very similar. But do what ya want, we all make our own choices.

Barry isn't a victim.

[CNY rider]

So did Michael Jr. ever participate in bicycle production before now?
Is it a heritable trait?
Is Tom coming back to build with him?

[Ozrider]

Lifes too short to hate, forgive and move on

[Wilkinson4]

His bikes are dope:banana: Kinda cool he is going to carry the torch, I was on a waiting list but then Sr. decided to retire.

mIKE

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that I don't have to buy Hincapie clothes. Or ride in the Levi Fondo. Or shop at Mellow Johnny's. Or buy a Mariposa bike built by this guy.

I don't "hate" them just because I don't choose to buy their products. I'm just voting with my wallet as are many other people who choose how they spend their dollars. I'm sure they will all survive just fine. Just not with my help.

BBD

[dancinkozmo]

..another couple thousand more builds and he might as good as e-ritchie :banana:

[palincss]

A Canadian hincapie, no thanks.

You know, if he can duplicate his father's skills, he could have been as big a doper as William S. Burroughs and I'd be inclined to forget & forgive. There have only ever been a tiny handful operating at that level of skill and artistry.

[oldguy00]

He really isn't an "excellent writer" either.

lol, I was thinking the same thing!

Other than that, yeah, he's guilty as the rest. But all the same, I wish him the best. I do think he is still a nice guy. Lots of the folks who doped were in fact nice guys. Lance doped, but the real issue was that he wasn't a very nice guy....

[earlfoss]

My consumer dollars won't go to support that ding dong. Plain and simple.

[Doug Fattic]

Everybody makes mistakes in life; it is just a matter of degree. We also tend to make the worst ones earlier on and improve with age. I’ve accepted framebuilding apprentices whose past was worse than Michael’s. My belief was that with a decent work structure and personal guidance they would become better people. And they did. I’m appreciative of those that have forgiven my mistakes and I attempt to be tolerant too.

What I am not tolerant of as a framebuilding instructor is the unholy mess of brazing shown in the opening picture. Those brazing blobs that aren’t in the joint but randomly on the tube imply he doesn’t have a clue about how to braze. He either didn’t get proper instruction or has absolutely no talent if he did. Apparently daddy wasn’t around. I’ve never had a framebuilding class student in my 38 years of teaching do such a bad practice braze even if it was their 1st one. Of course before they start they are given a lot of instruction and demonstrations and then supervision when they are brazing. That picture doesn’t show evidence of any of those things.

[aingeru]

..another couple thousand more builds and he might as good as e-ritchie :banana:


quite out of place comment...

[velotrack]

. . . that I don't have to buy Hincapie clothes. Or ride in the Levi Fondo. Or shop at Mellow Johnny's. Or buy a Mariposa bike built by this guy.

I don't "hate" them just because I don't choose to buy their products. I'm just voting with my wallet as are many other people who choose how they spend their dollars. I'm sure they will all survive just fine. Just not with my help.

BBD

This. We'll all make out own decisions with our dollar and that's enough for everybody to keep the world going.

[happycampyer]

Everybody makes mistakes in life; it is just a matter of degree. We also tend to make the worst ones earlier on and improve with age. I’ve accepted framebuilding apprentices whose past was worse than Michael’s. My belief was that with a decent work structure and personal guidance they would become better people. And they did. I’m appreciative of those that have forgiven my mistakes and I attempt to be tolerant too.

What I am not tolerant of as a framebuilding instructor is the unholy mess of brazing shown in the opening picture. Those brazing blobs that aren’t in the joint but randomly on the tube imply he doesn’t have a clue about how to braze. He either didn’t get proper instruction or has absolutely no talent if he did. Apparently daddy wasn’t around. I’ve never had a framebuilding class student in my 38 years of teaching do such a bad practice braze even if it was their 1st one. Of course before they start they are given a lot of instruction and demonstrations and then supervision when they are brazing. That picture doesn’t show evidence of any of those things.
But if he can "ride" on daddy's coat tails (the framebuilding equivalent of doping—how ironic), does any of that really matter?

[oldpotatoe]

. . . that I don't have to buy Hincapie clothes. Or ride in the Levi Fondo. Or shop at Mellow Johnny's. Or buy a Mariposa bike built by this guy.

I don't "hate" them just because I don't choose to buy their products. I'm just voting with my wallet as are many other people who choose how they spend their dollars. I'm sure they will all survive just fine. Just not with my help.

BBD

Yup, what he said. 'Hate' is a big word, I don't hate any of these guys, I can only hate one person at a time anyway, reserved for my thieving biz partner..

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that has been co-opted so much by extreme groups on either end of the spectrum that it has lost much of it's meaning.

I don't "hate" Rapha, though I have seen that term bandied about in this forum. I just don't choose to buy their stuff because I don't agree with their marketing message. I don't "hate" Lance. I just don't like him because it's been pretty obvious to me for a long, long time that he's not my definition of a good human being. People make decisions all the time not to participate in events or buy certain things or be associated with certain people because they don't agree with some aspect of the product's or person's core message or ethos. That doesn't mean they "hate" those things or people.

"Hero" is another word that's been totally corrupted. Not every person who enlists in the military is a "hero" just because they enlisted. Not every person who died in the bomb blast is a"hero." Some of them are just unfortunate folks who happened to be in the wrong place when it went off.

As for Barry, I remember some years ago meeting Mike Barry Sr. at a gathering at DBRK's home. I got to ride with him and I remember him being a totally class act. He made beautiful bikes. Not quite what I would buy as my first choice, but you had to look at the one he had brought with him that he had made for himself and just say "Wow." He gave the evening talk about the derailleur collection he had brought with him. He had dozens with him and apparently hundreds more at home. He made it absolutely fascinating and again, a totally class act.

I thought about that day immediately when I first heard Mike Jr. had admitted to doping. I didn't immediately "hate" Mike Jr., and I still don't. Instead I felt bad for Mike Sr. because, in my limited experience with him, he seemed like a principled guy who was obviously proud when anyone mentioned his son being a pro during that day we spent together. I thought when I read about Mike Jr., "Wow, his Dad must be hurting inside right about now."

I also feel bad for Mike Sr. because now the value of his brand is diminished for me. The essence of what a "brand" is involves what you think about when you hear that name or see that logo. By taking over his father's brand, IMO Mike Jr. has associated what he did with that brand because some people will undeniably think of that when they see that name or logo now. Unfortunately, that's what I think of and for that reason I'm not going to be considering one of his bikes when I buy.

But I also have to assume that Mike Jr. would not be using the brand unless his dad gave permission. To me, that also means that his dad loves him enough to give him the gift of his most precious possession--his reputation--to help him make a new start. To me, that just confirms what a class act Mike Sr. must be.

BBD

[witcombusa]

What I am not tolerant of as a framebuilding instructor is the unholy mess of brazing shown in the opening picture. Those brazing blobs that aren’t in the joint but randomly on the tube imply he doesn’t have a clue about how to braze. He either didn’t get proper instruction or has absolutely no talent if he did. Apparently daddy wasn’t around. I’ve never had a framebuilding class student in my 38 years of teaching do such a bad practice braze even if it was their 1st one. Of course before they start they are given a lot of instruction and demonstrations and then supervision when they are brazing. That picture doesn’t show evidence of any of those things.

Agree, what a mess!

I have seen some beautifully built Mariposa's and this is Mike Senior's
work. As for what Jr. may be capable of building remains to be seen but from the photo I wouldn't be in the line. Will the "name" carry the brand or will the product decide it? Time will tell.

"Brazing" and I use the term loosely, a set of tubes together does not a framebuilder make.

[dancinkozmo]

quite out of place comment...
mariposa$ were top dollar framesets...and rightly so. you were paying for design knowledge and skill that took decades to acquire...would you pay sachs money for a frame slapped together by a newbie ?
If theyre smart they'll try and get Tom back to do the welding...he was aces

[pbarry]

Everybody makes mistakes in life; it is just a matter of degree. We also tend to make the worst ones earlier on and improve with age. I’ve accepted framebuilding apprentices whose past was worse than Michael’s. My belief was that with a decent work structure and personal guidance they would become better people. And they did. I’m appreciative of those that have forgiven my mistakes and I attempt to be tolerant too.

What I am not tolerant of as a framebuilding instructor is the unholy mess of brazing shown in the opening picture. Those brazing blobs that aren’t in the joint but randomly on the tube imply he doesn’t have a clue about how to braze. He either didn’t get proper instruction or has absolutely no talent if he did. Apparently daddy wasn’t around. I’ve never had a framebuilding class student in my 38 years of teaching do such a bad practice braze even if it was their 1st one. Of course before they start they are given a lot of instruction and demonstrations and then supervision when they are brazing. That picture doesn’t show evidence of any of those things.

Yes, and I don't see enough flux... :eek:

[rcnute]

Everybody makes mistakes in life; it is just a matter of degree. We also tend to make the worst ones earlier on and improve with age. I’ve accepted framebuilding apprentices whose past was worse than Michael’s. My belief was that with a decent work structure and personal guidance they would become better people. And they did. I’m appreciative of those that have forgiven my mistakes and I attempt to be tolerant too.

What I am not tolerant of as a framebuilding instructor is the unholy mess of brazing shown in the opening picture. Those brazing blobs that aren’t in the joint but randomly on the tube imply he doesn’t have a clue about how to braze. He either didn’t get proper instruction or has absolutely no talent if he did. Apparently daddy wasn’t around. I’ve never had a framebuilding class student in my 38 years of teaching do such a bad practice braze even if it was their 1st one. Of course before they start they are given a lot of instruction and demonstrations and then supervision when they are brazing. That picture doesn’t show evidence of any of those things.

I was wondering when someone who knew what they were talking about would weigh in...:)

[CunegoFan]

You guys act like he killed somebody instead of taking a few drugs when everyone else was taking drugs, taking drugs was required to race in Europe, everyone knew that everyone else was taking drugs, and drug taking was tacitly understood to be okay by everyone involved.

[steelbikerider]

So we should boycott every framebuilder who ever took an illegal drug??

[Chris]

You guys act like he killed somebody instead of taking a few drugs when everyone else was taking drugs, taking drugs was required to race in Europe, everyone knew that everyone else was taking drugs, and drug taking was tacitly understood to be okay by everyone involved.

This is the way I look at it. It's a sport I love. I'm not naive about it, but at the same time I have a wide variety of choices where I can spend my money in the sport. I will put it toward people who I feel have contributed to that in ways that matter to me. Yes his cheating was like MOST others who cheated , but there were guys in the peloton who didn't, so please don't paint it like it was an entire sport without morals. That's not the case.

[ntb1001]

I just read this article, looks like his Dad and Tom are back to show him how do build the frames.
http://bicycletimesmag.com/drinks-with-mike-and-michael-barry-of-mariposa-bicycles/

[jr59]

I just read this article, looks like his Dad and Tom are back to show him how do build the frames.
http://bicycletimesmag.com/drinks-with-mike-and-michael-barry-of-mariposa-bicycles/

Maybe the father saw the pic!

[RonW87]

Dede is also involved in the business.

[Mikej]

The shirt on your back has 1000x more the labor offense than all of the frames that guy could build. Ask the 12 year old who sewed it.

[edward12]

The shirt on your back has 1000x more the labor offense than all of the frames that guy could build. Ask the 12 year old who sewed it.

Great comment. Thank you for putting this issue in the proper perspective.

[abalone]

Everybody makes mistakes in life; it is just a matter of degree. We also tend to make the worst ones earlier on and improve with age. I’ve accepted framebuilding apprentices whose past was worse than Michael’s. My belief was that with a decent work structure and personal guidance they would become better people. And they did. I’m appreciative of those that have forgiven my mistakes and I attempt to be tolerant too.

What I am not tolerant of as a framebuilding instructor is the unholy mess of brazing shown in the opening picture. Those brazing blobs that aren’t in the joint but randomly on the tube imply he doesn’t have a clue about how to braze. He either didn’t get proper instruction or has absolutely no talent if he did. Apparently daddy wasn’t around. I’ve never had a framebuilding class student in my 38 years of teaching do such a bad practice braze even if it was their 1st one. Of course before they start they are given a lot of instruction and demonstrations and then supervision when they are brazing. That picture doesn’t show evidence of any of those things.


I really don't see what is so offensive about that picture. For all we know, the photographer for the magazine or newspaper just wanted a shot of Barry brazing and they may have just taken a half-built frame and had Barry fire up the torch just to get the shot. The general public is not going to be scrutinizing excess brass or lack of flux. For all we know, he could have been deconstructing a junked practice frame that his wife did.

I find more issue with his doping and lieing after he and his team were caught, as well as his covering foe Armstrong all while Armstrong was using his vast wealth to hire lawyers to sue and ruin other people's career. He was deeply involved in that ring and some unfortunate people's careers and lives were significantly affected. I'm all for forgiveness, but he needs to completely own up to, and unconditionally apologize, without any "poor-me-I-am-victimized", self-serving comments. Until then, forgiveness is being withheld and so is any deposit on any Mariposa frame built by Dad or Jr.

[jet sanchez]

I have a pet theory that any and all threads posted on paceline will eventually lead to a discussion of how Lance Armstrong destroyed the sport of cycling. Is there any merit to my theory or am I way off base here?

[helmut]

Dede is also involved in the business.

Almost worse than Mike Jr.

[BumbleBeeDave]

What would you have young Mike do? Flip burgers at McDonald's? If you don't approve of him, don't buy one of the bikes. I'd be far more willing to consider one of the bikes with his dad advising him and the former employee back to help then if he was just going it on his own.

Did he dope? Yeah. Did he try to destroy people's lives and just generally do evil things like Lance? Nope.

Let him be and best of luck to him.

BBD

[Doug Fattic]

I really don't see what is so offensive about that picture. For all we know, the photographer for the magazine or newspaper just wanted a shot of Barry brazing and they may have just taken a half-built frame and had Barry fire up the torch just to get the shot. The general public is not going to be scrutinizing excess brass or lack of flux. For all we know, he could have been deconstructing a junked practice frame that his wife did.
The problem with the picture is that it shows him in a very unprofessional light. Even if some photographer said grab anything and turn on your torch so we can get some shots, it shows a lack of good judgement to agree to be photographed with work worse than what a rank amateur would do. Someone without any brazing knowledge might not see the problem is but it is pretty glaring that everything is all wrong for anyone with even a modest experience with a torch. It is an embarrassing mess. It certainly doesn’t have an appearance of being taken apart rather than going together. That is just the reality.

My Toronto based cycling friends have a lot of good things to say about dad. And if I was his father I would try and help him the best way I could with my knowledge. He has a much better chance with an already established and well equipped shop than many that want to build frames. I know how a frame should be put together (and there are many ways to do the same thing well) and I don’t like to see someone say they are joining my trade when the evidence they provide shows they are completely incompetent. Hopefully his dad will come to his rescue.

[zmudshark]

So many assumptions in this thread. I though Paceline was above that.

In any case, a person who I call a friend just bought a M.Barry Sr. bike today. He's a lucky fellow. :banana:

[BumbleBeeDave]

So many assumptions in this thread. I though Paceline was above that.

That photo may indicate nothing more than the younger Barry is not particularly media savvy. With Dad mentoring him he's going to learn a lot. Don't forget that if the elder Barry is involved and the bikes are being sold based on the record of craftsmanship that he has built up, then he has a vested interest in making sure his son does well.

BBD

[gomango]

So many assumptions in this thread. I though Paceline was above that.

In any case, a person who I call a friend just bought a M.Barry Sr. bike today. He's a lucky fellow. :banana:

Bring on the pics!!!! :)

[johnmdesigner]

What would you have young Mike do? Flip burgers at McDonald's? If you don't approve of him, don't buy one of the bikes. I'd be far more willing to consider one of the bikes with his dad advising him and the former employee back to help then if he was just going it on his own.

Did he dope? Yeah. Did he try to destroy people's lives and just generally do evil things like Lance? Nope.

Let him be and best of luck to him.

BBD

Well Dave I haven't seen too many of Don Corleone's enablers being terribly contrite (including Michael).
And I have heard that it takes a team to win the TDF.
And he did write a little comic book about the US Postal team that was basically a bunch of lies that probably did earn him a little money.
Maybe if he had taken up brazing at an earlier age instead of propping up the Don he would be held in higher esteem today.
The one I feel sorry for is Mr. Barry. I remember him at DBRK's house cheering for his son who was riding in the Worlds.
If he wants to promote himself he should expect to get grief for his past. He's no Paula Deen after all.
(On a side note- I will never understand how the governing bodies of cycling can allow the George Hincapie Grand Fondo to exist. I'll never forget that press conference where LA is ripping David Walsh a new one with George sitting next to him giggling like a 14 year old dumbass.)
You're right - if you don't like him don't buy his products. And I won't.

[ntb1001]

No doubt Michael Jr screwed up, but his family has been in the business for a long time and his dad has a cycling knowledge unmatched. If Jr wants to keep the Mariposa name going...more power to him. The history behind that name has been around longer than Michaels cycling career, hopefully he will learn what he needs to from his dad and Tom.

[zmudshark]

Bring on the pics!!!! :)I suppose pics would be up to you.;)

[CNY rider]

I have a pet theory that any and all threads posted on paceline will eventually lead to a discussion of how Lance Armstrong destroyed the sport of cycling. Is there any merit to my theory or am I way off base here?

You're way off base.
Only 50% of threads end as you suggested.
25% end in a discussion of the [I]other[I] Evil Empire (aka Rapha).
Another 10% swirl around Ben Serotta and long head tubes/short stems causing the fall of western civilization. This was formerly 75% of the Forum but has fortunately quieted considerably the last few years.

The remaining 15% vary by season.:banana:

[oldpotatoe]

The problem with the picture is that it shows him in a very unprofessional light. Even if some photographer said grab anything and turn on your torch so we can get some shots, it shows a lack of good judgement to agree to be photographed with work worse than what a rank amateur would do. Someone without any brazing knowledge might not see the problem is but it is pretty glaring that everything is all wrong for anyone with even a modest experience with a torch. It is an embarrassing mess. It certainly doesn’t have an appearance of being taken apart rather than going together. That is just the reality.

My Toronto based cycling friends have a lot of good things to say about dad. And if I was his father I would try and help him the best way I could with my knowledge. He has a much better chance with an already established and well equipped shop than many that want to build frames. I know how a frame should be put together (and there are many ways to do the same thing well) and I don’t like to see someone say they are joining my trade when the evidence they provide shows they are completely incompetent. Hopefully his dad will come to his rescue.

Wouldn't that frame, main tubes and stays, be in a jig for welding
too?

[oldpotatoe]

So many assumptions in this thread. I though Paceline was above that.

In any case, a person who I call a friend just bought a M.Barry Sr. bike today. He's a lucky fellow. :banana:

yer kidding, right?

[fuzzalow]

Photo looks to be nothing more than a grab 'n go photo op. As for the slop dash on whatever those frame tubes are, who knows? Was never intended to see the light of day as saleable product.

Don't like the guy then don't buy his stuff. Don't expect messianic behavior from an athlete who competed in a messy, corrupt sporting spectacle.

[MaraudingWalrus]

that's dope!



boooo

[Grinta13]

Lifes too short to hate, forgive and move on

Couldn't agree more. Everyone makes mistakes.
I find that people prefer to paint things in black & white. "He doped and lied about it so he is a bad person."
Well, the reality is probably far less simple than that. Don't judge the man unless you've walked a mile in his moccasins... or, uh... pedaled a mile in his Sidis... or something like that.

[ispy]

Received this letter via email this morning. I did not realize Mariposa had kept my contact info; I was one of the last persons on their wait list... until I was informed Mike Barry would be retiring. Very happy for MB to be resurrecting Mariposa but sad he won't be at the helm; although the letter points out that Tom Hinton is back as the (lead) frame builder, I recall DBRK saying many times that MB was the genius who drew together the whole finely nuanced picture of the bike especially the complex-but-effortless-looking randonneur builds.



February 4, 2015


As you own, have owned or shown an interest in having a Mariposa bicycle in the past, I am writing to let you know that we are building Mariposa bicycles again.

The first Mariposa bicycle was built in 1969. In the succeeding years many hundreds were custom built for enthusiastic tourists, randonneurs, commuters, racers and for those that just wanted a fine bicycle that would last for many years.

Production ceased after almost forty years, when I retired in 2007. Over the years, because of the close connections developed over the custom building process, we made many good friends. Some we are still in touch with and even ride with on a regular basis but many others we have lost contact with.

No Mariposas were built from 2007 until 2014 when my son Michael and his wife Dede decided to resurrect the business. Michael learned how to build frames and Dede took over the business side. Both are admirably suited to the tasks involved.

Michael has spent his entire life around bikes, is a three time Olympian, has ridden all the major races including the Tour de France, and taken a very keen interest in all the nuances of bikes and cycling including bike fit, selection of components, training and route planning.

Dede has also spent most of her life as a top racer and has won gold, silver and bronze medals in World Championships, a silver in the Athens Olympic Time Trial and won World Cup races including the World Cup in Montreal. We are proud to say that she won in Montreal riding her Mariposa.

Since retiring from racing after the Athens Olympics she has raised a family of two boys and graduated from IESE Business School with an MBA.

Long time Mariposa frame builder, Tom Hinton has returned to the company and is again the lead frame builder.

I feel that the Mariposa Team is second to none for knowledge and experience.

Over the years our list of Mariposa owners has not been kept as complete as we would like it to be. We would like to find out where all those hundreds of fine bicycles are now. We would like to get in touch with their owners to keep them informed with what is happening with the brand and to invite owners to participate in some Mariposa events.

To this end we would be delighted if all past and present owners would fill out the enclosed form and return it to us.

We look forward to hearing from you and hopefully meeting up with you in the near future.

Very best regards,

Mike Barry

[pbarry]

Great to to read the update, ispy, thanks! Looks like the torch helm is taken by a true hand, so no worries. Jr will learn the craft in time. A much better PR forward than, "We've been aquired by X", or, "A new management team will bring..".

[Cat3roadracer]

This is funny and pretty much sums it up.


You're way off base.
Only 50% of threads end as you suggested.
25% end in a discussion of the [I]other[I] Evil Empire (aka Rapha).
Another 10% swirl around Ben Serotta and long head tubes/short stems causing the fall of western civilization. This was formerly 75% of the Forum but has fortunately quieted considerably the last few years.

The remaining 15% vary by season.:banana: