Carbon wheels on group rides - Survey

[endosch2]

What percentage of the riders at group rides in your area use carbon wheels? I am just curious - we seem to have a culture here in northern NH not to use because people say the roads are too bad.

I am just wondering what about the rest of the country?

I would like to hear:

1. what percent of the pack is on carbon rim wheels ?

2. and where is the general area of where you ride?

3. Do you feel your roads are bad?

[AngryScientist]

northern jersey, NYC area here. lots of carbon wheels, everywhere.

carbon is routinely used in cyclocross and iconically terrible roads, fear not, they can handle the abuse!

http://inspire-ipcmedia-com.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2013/04/paris_roubaix2013_fabian_Stybar_atack-e1396976006700.jpg

[MattTuck]

Where in NH are you?

I don't ride with groups very often, but based on the folks I see out riding, I'd say 20-30% are using deep section rims.

Roads around Hanover, NH are very variable. Some are great, some are terrible. Some areas are bad enough that I try to avoid certain roads, or cringe when I realize I'm going to be riding on them.

[leooooo]

Do a majority of my rides in long island. I have to say 75% on carbon wheels.

Just came back from a week in the Pyrenees (I gotta upload pics one day and make a post), didnt see a single soul on carbon wheels...

[beeatnik]

Any ride out here with 50 plus riders, at least 30 will be on carbon wheels. Especially, the older chubbier cats.

[teleguy57]

Any ride out here with 50 plus riders, at least 30 will be on carbon wheels. Especially, the older chubbier cats.

Hey, I didn't realize you saw me on our group rides here in WI! :)

Just got my first set of carbon tubulars -- too good a deal to pass up. Bontrager Aeolus D3s in 35mm; very nice all-around wheels. I've been riding them all the time except when I know there's rain coming. Rode them in Colorado for my recent two-week trip and I'd do it again (did have alloy-rimmed wheels in the car in case it was very wet).

Still love my Nucleon and Nemesis tubulars, but see them now as more specialty wheels for certain conditions. Yes, the pros ride carbon on everything (I'm a sucker for almost any pic with cobbles in it, but this one, mmmm) but I'm more likely to want to keep mine intact.

To the OP's question, I'd say 20ish percent of the riders in the groups with whom I ride are on carbon; I may be the only one on carbon tubulars (or any tubular for that matter)

[azrider]

I'd say between 5-10% "don't" ride carbon in my hood

[Waldo]

My group rides is a half-dozen friends. Zero carbon wheels. If someone showed up on a pair, he'd likely be laughed/shamed out of the group.

[mike p]

Upstate NY....Tues nite worlds, probably 50% are on carbon wheels. If a large groups goes out for a training ride probably 20%.

Mike

[Bob Ross]

1. what percent of the pack is on carbon rim wheels ?
Given that the "pack" is rarely more than a dozen folks at most, I'd say less than 10% ...basically there's almost always one guy with some swanky wheels, but almost never two and definitely never three.

2. and where is the general area of where you ride?
New York tri-state area: suburbs of NYC, in northern NJ, Rockland, Westchester, Dutchess, Orange counties, sometimes southern CT

3. Do you feel your roads are bad?
They f*cking suck

[RonW87]

1. what percent of the pack is on carbon rim wheels ?
On donut ride (could be 100 riders depending on the day), lots, possibly most.

2. and where is the general area of where you ride?
North of Toronto.

3. Do you feel your roads are bad?
Pothole city.

There may be reasons not to ride carbon wheels, but bad roads isn't one of them.

[thegunner]

1. what percent of the pack is on carbon rim wheels ?
Given that the "pack" is rarely more than a dozen folks at most, I'd say less than 10% ...basically there's almost always one guy with some swanky wheels, but almost never two and definitely never three.

2. and where is the general area of where you ride?
New York tri-state area: suburbs of NYC, in northern NJ, Rockland, Westchester, Dutchess, Orange counties, sometimes southern CT

3. Do you feel your roads are bad?
They f*cking suck

how is this possible? i ride the same areas... pretty close to 1/2 roll carbon (i do it because i'm too lazy to switch pads...)

[shovelhd]

Western MA, 25%, roads range from fresh to suck.

[nublar]

Orange County CA

Most people on a Colnago or other imported bike. The rest on Tarmacs.

50% of the people have carbon wheels

Roads are fair to very good.

[regularguy412]

1. what percent of the pack is on carbon rim wheels ?
approx 25%,but we have a small group. usually around 7 or 8 riders
so- only a couple of us routinely on carbon.

2. and where is the general area of where you ride?
We don't spend much time in town. we meet on the edge and ride to another town and back , or just make a big loop.

3. Do you feel your roads are bad?
We typically don't get too many bad winters here, but last winter was especially hard on the roads. as a result, the city/state has made some decent repairs and even repaved several sections of the roads we normally use.

Mike in AR:beer:

[mod6]

On LI, Thursday night shop ride I would say half the group will be rolling carbon wheels. Our roads did suck but a lot of new asphalt has been laid on the route within the past few weeks.

[RobJ]

D.C. area / NoVA - better question is what percentage of the pack isn't riding carbon wheels? Not until you get way out west towards horse-country or further towards Shenandoah and hit some decent descents, do you more alloy wheels. The roads for the most part aren't great and the traffic is worse.

[Bob Ross]

how is this possible? i ride the same areas... pretty close to 1/2 roll carbon (i do it because i'm too lazy to switch pads...)

My friends are poorer than yours? :)

[benc]

Here in Atlanta, the roads are pretty bad but not as bad as those who have bad winters.

Groups can get up in the 65-85 rider range and I'd say close to half are on deep carbon.

At one point I knocked guys on race wheels at weeknight rides. I've been on deep carbon w/ 25mm tubulars all summer. It's a lot of fun.

[kgreene10]

The proportion of carbon wheels rises with (c-bar/ci)-t where c-bar is the mean racing category of the group, ci is the category of each rider and t is the time of day the ride leaves. There is some debate about whether t is in fact curvilinear. Otherwise, the earlier the ride leaves and the harder it is relative to a given rider, the more carbon wheels you get.

I see carbon wheels here in Austin (for use on good and bad roads) on more and more group rides. I use them on a tough Sat group ride lately in part because these guys are strong and in part because I don't generally find the time between the Th race and Sat morning to change the brake pads.

[redir]

Not very many at all in my University. Poor college kids. Sometimes a few of their professors will show up with a bit of bling but not often.

[keppler]

On most of my rides now I count at least half the people are riding carbon bikes with all carbon wheels, most of which are tubulars. Most of the roads I ride on are ok, but some farm roads are just terrible.

I found it funny one evening, while I was finishing up a ride on my steel bike with Mavic Open Pro 32 spoke wheels, to have a guy pull up to me on a nice carbon bike with trick looking carbon wheels.

He was worried as he was on his way to meet a club and the clouds were getting pretty nasty. I asked how he liked the wheels, he said they're light and fast, but braking in the wet is terrible! I guess he should have brought his rain bike...:rolleyes:

[chiasticon]

1. what percent of the pack is on carbon rim wheels ?
anywhere from 10-50%. some are shallower (35mm or less) and some are deep (50-60mm). some have aluminum braking surfaces. very few are tubular.

2. and where is the general area of where you ride?
northeast ohio. not entirely flat. lots of rollers and the local national park areas are decently hilly.

3. Do you feel your roads are bad?
yes. lots of potholes.

i used to joke about the carbon rim folks but now i have my own. out of shape people riding slower than 18mph on them still get laughed at though. generally, i'll throw mine on for longer rides, flatter rides, when i just want an extra bit of fun, or if i know a certain element will be at the ride and i need all the help i can get. but anyway, yeah bad roads don't stop me from using 'em, but a super hilly route will.

[ntb1001]

I leave them on all the time....don't want to change brake pads☺

My teenaged kids ride carbon wheels too...but just because they're spoiled.

[Ralph]

I see them all the time. Maybe 10%. Guys in a pace line struggling to keep up going 20-22 MPH on 1700-1800 gram 50 mm clincher carbon wheels that have an aero advantage at speeds much higher than they ride.

They get dropped by guys on 1500 gram low spoke count clincher aluminum wheels that maybe are 25-35 MM depth. Rarely see tubular of any depth or material (where the real advantage is with carbon).

[regularguy412]

slight thread drift and i apologize--

Life is too short not to ride good carbon wheels shod with good tires if you can afford it. I still ride my 32 hole Open Pros on my other bike at least 2 days a week. However, I sure can tell the difference on every pedal stroke. The 32-holers get 'heavy' when over 25 mph and also when going up a climb, even of moderate length or steepness.

On the normal 22 mile loop I routinely ride, the carbon wheels account for about a 1 mph increase in average speed.

Mike in AR:beer:

[KidWok]

What percentage of the riders at group rides in your area use carbon wheels? I am just curious - we seem to have a culture here in northern NH not to use because people say the roads are too bad.

I am just wondering what about the rest of the country?

I would like to hear:

1. what percent of the pack is on carbon rim wheels ?

2. and where is the general area of where you ride?

3. Do you feel your roads are bad?

I train a tri group and most of them are new cyclists with cheaper bikes. I think we have three triathletes that have full tri bikes with carbon wheels. They never put "training" wheels on them...always ride their race wheels. So probably less than 10%. We ride a lot of back roads outside of Seattle, which are MUCH better quality than Seattle roads...yes...I feel those are pretty bad.

Tai

[FastforaSlowGuy]

What percentage of the riders at group rides in your area use carbon wheels? I am just curious - we seem to have a culture here in northern NH not to use because people say the roads are too bad.

I am just wondering what about the rest of the country?

I would like to hear:

1. what percent of the pack is on carbon rim wheels ? 20-50% (depending on group)

2. and where is the general area of where you ride? Eastern MA / Southern NH

3. Do you feel your roads are bad? Hugely variable. Around where I live they are not bad (given the geography), but some of the Boston 'burbs (especially the uber-wealthy ones, go figure) seem to have given up repaving their potholed roads.

I have no problem running carbon wheels on 95% of the roads around me. I'll shy away if the road is gravel (tire issue, not a wheel issue).

[Mark McM]

I see them all the time. Maybe 10%. Guys in a pace line struggling to keep up going 20-22 MPH on 1700-1800 gram 50 mm clincher carbon wheels that have an aero advantage at speeds much higher than they ride.

Aero wheels have an aero advantage at all speeds - even up hills.

[witcombusa]

Aero wheels have an aero advantage at all speeds - even up hills.

And a weight disadvantage everywhere too - especially up hills.

[Ryun]

Certainly the outlier group but here in jax where the A group rides average 25plus and spend lots of time above 30 mph I'd say 90-95% have deep carbon rims
If you show up on alloy clinchers you are the odd man out

Roads are pretty good tho

[Mark McM]

And a weight disadvantage everywhere too - especially up hills.

This statement is incorrect. The extra weight becomes a penalty only on the steepest hills. Even on moderate hills, the reduction in aero drag power more than cancels out any extra power to overcome gravity. (And yes, that includes while accelerating.)

The more correct statement is: "And no disadvantage due to the weight anywhere - except up steep hills"

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Why_Wheel_Aerodynamics_Can_Outweigh_Wheel_Weight_a nd_Inertia_2106.html

http://flocycling.blogspot.com/2014/01/flo-cycling-great-debate-aero-vs-weight.html

http://www.cervelo.com/en/engineering/thinking-and-processes/weight-vs-aero.html

[witcombusa]

This statement is incorrect. The extra weight becomes a penalty only on the steepest hills. Even on moderate hills, the reduction in aero drag power more than cancels out any extra power to overcome gravity. (And yes, that includes while accelerating.)

The more correct statement is: "And no disadvantage due to the weight anywhere - except up steep hills"




Hell, if I was worried about a "reduction in aero drag power", I would shave my head, face, arms and legs. Thankfully, I couldn't care less.. ;)

[r_mutt]

most of the racers around here train with aluminum clinchers. carbon wheels are race day only for 90% of the guys i ride with.

[coylifut]

i've seen maybe a couple sets of carbon wheels on training rides. everyone saves the good rubber for racing. the pros in my area never ever ride carbon while training.

[regularguy412]

This statement is incorrect. The extra weight becomes a penalty only on the steepest hills. Even on moderate hills, the reduction in aero drag power more than cancels out any extra power to overcome gravity. (And yes, that includes while accelerating.)

The more correct statement is: "And no disadvantage due to the weight anywhere - except up steep hills"

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Why_Wheel_Aerodynamics_Can_Outweigh_Wheel_Weight_a nd_Inertia_2106.html

http://flocycling.blogspot.com/2014/01/flo-cycling-great-debate-aero-vs-weight.html

http://www.cervelo.com/en/engineering/thinking-and-processes/weight-vs-aero.html

My Easton EC90SL's are 38mm and reportedly 1250 grams w/o tires and cogs. They are DEFINITELY the fastest wheels I've ever owned, whether riding up hills, down hills or on the flats. And I've owned a set of handbuilt Campy Record Chrono and Campy Victory Chrono 32 hole box section tubulars. The Campys were light, but not aero. With the Eastons I really can't feel a down side.

FWIW, only one other guy in my usual group rides carbon wheels on a regular basis. They are Bontrager Carbon Clinchers. Another guy has a set of Reynolds carbon tubulars, but he uses them primarily for CX and doesn't usually have road tires glued up.

Mike in AR:beer:

[poff]

All my carbons wheels are MTB unless C35 can be counted as such.

[aramis]

I ride regular aluminum clinchers for training rides, because well it's not a race, it's a training ride.. and if you can't keep up or win the town line sprint up on normal wheels, carbon wheels aren't going to help you. A good fitting kit probably matters more anyway, but there are always way more people with flapping jerseys using $1000 zipp wheels rather then getting a speedsuit with pockets, go figure.

But I'd say about half the people out here on the normal fast group rides are on carbon fiber wheels.

[weiwentg]

I beat two people on fancy carbon wheels up a short steep climb the other day.

[oldpotatoe]

Any ride out here with 50 plus riders, at least 30 will be on carbon wheels. Especially, the older chubbier cats.

Hilarious!! Reality, what a concept.

[RacerJRP]

Always race on the deep wheels but I can't say I have taken them out training on even the fastest of group rides. With that said usually its the non-racers, on carbon hoops during the week.

definately trending towards "standard" equpiment.

[bcroslin]

Standard equipment here in FL where weight isn't a concern but being able to roll for long distances at 28+ is important. I'm riding C-24s and I've noticed they're starting to become a thing in the group but 60% or more are riding 35-50mm carbon wheels in my neck of the woods.

[Ti Designs]

This statement is incorrect. The extra weight becomes a penalty only on the steepest hills. Even on moderate hills, the reduction in aero drag power more than cancels out any extra power to overcome gravity. (And yes, that includes while accelerating.)

And then to quote one of the articles:

So, I took a look at what the peak forces at the pedal (assumed to be ~2X the average pedal force around the crank cycle)...

This is where the pure physics explanation of biomechanics fails. Inefficiently and resulting fatigue come in at higher muscle tension, there's plenty of test data on that. If you build the model of a rider, and scale output of muscles based on the loss of efficiency, the output based on inertia of the system (the delta being rim weight) changes.

The data they use indicates that the system is slower only when there is a significant increase/decrease in speed based on where the pedals are - in the power phase the bike speeds up, at top and bottom the bike slows. F=M*A pretty much covers that. Even on more gradual climbs where there is less change in speed, the peak forces on the muscles are higher. From what I can see, the calculations are made based on long term linear output from muscles. Forget the carbon wheels, where do I get that type of muscle fiber???

For what it's worth, the aero wheel for hills argument is the same as the huge gear argument I have with some of my racers. I have a 56x11 on my bike, but I would never allow my riders to have such a silly gear. We've done fatigue testing on myself and a few of my past racers, came up with some data on peak force, fatigue cycles and muscle failure. I have built my weight training program around this data, pushing the fatigue strength of my larger muscle groups. Even so, for every minute spent in the 56x11 I probably spend 15 minutes rolling out sore muscles. It's an extreme case, but it shows the difference between a model based on motors which can handle higher stress without long term loss (electric motors can dissipate heat - muscles can't do the same with fatigue) and the real thing.

[shovelhd]

My training wheels are clinchers and my race wheels are tubulars. Both are deep carbon. Training is 50mm, racing is currently 80mm/60mm. I guess that makes me stupid.

[laupsi]

competed one week ago in our distric RR in VA when my rear wheel hit a pothole decending at about 45 mph. was riding a deep dish tubular carbon rim, the impact caused a rear puncture in my tire and took a dime sized chip out of the top of the rim along w/an inch long fissure extending down into thicker portion of the rim. was able to complete the decent and ride to the shoulder to inspect the damage and exit the race while still in one piece.

my take; if I were riding an aluminum rim it would have completely ovalized and failed causing loss of control and possibly a horrific crash.

[laupsi]

oh and BTW, I race and train on the same wheels due to convenience. found that although I get longer life out of some clinchers, I typically train on the same set of wheels now that I've found the magic of "Stans"!

[coylifut]

Can Ruckus or Calfe fix that or is it done?

[bluesea]

This statement is incorrect. The extra weight becomes a penalty only on the steepest hills. Even on moderate hills, the reduction in aero drag power more than cancels out any extra power to overcome gravity. (And yes, that includes while accelerating.)

The more correct statement is: "And no disadvantage due to the weight anywhere - except up steep hills"

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Why_Wheel_Aerodynamics_Can_Outweigh_Wheel_Weight_a nd_Inertia_2106.html

http://flocycling.blogspot.com/2014/01/flo-cycling-great-debate-aero-vs-weight.html

http://www.cervelo.com/en/engineering/thinking-and-processes/weight-vs-aero.html



Thanks for the info!

[carpediemracing]

On my one rider group rides it's 100% carbon (faired) wheels, at least this year. The one rider owns a pair of similar non-aero wheels but they're not rideable at this time. 2010 Jet 6/9 vs 2010 Bastogne (aka Ardennes). Roads are tough enough to use up both a front and rear Bastogne rim in about 4 years.

Said rider doesn't go that fast (avg 18 mph is very fast) and the aero wheels give a 2 pound penalty over the non-aero clinchers (same brand hub, spokes, tires, tubes, rim strips, marginally different cassettes).

For group rides the Bastognes are much better. For solo rides the Jets seem faster, even though they feel slower.

I think the Bastognes are better on group rides (and training races) because they're easier to accelerate so it's easier to stay in the drafting sweet spot. I noticed how often I do minor accelerations to stay in the draft (1/2 downstroke at a time) when I rode with a much more significant weight difference - when I did a group ride captaining a tandem. I realized I do a tiny stomp to close tiny gaps (few inches). With the tandem (350-400 lbs total weight) my tiny stomps didn't do anything and the gap opened up. It took me a few pedal revs to close tiny gaps.

Jets are more aero. On my one rider group rides I don't have to worry about keeping a gap closed so the extra weight is less a concern. I coast down the hill into the complex where I live and the Bastognes peak out at about 27 mph (I'm super aware due to people complaining of speeders in our 25 mph posted limit complex, including my own personal gripes about people flying past our house). On the Jets I have to brake at 30-31 mph. Not scientific since I'm not controlling my posture etc but they're similar and I'm generally sitting up more on the Jets since I don't want to break my self imposed 30 mph speed limit.

I race on aero carbon tubulars, and in fact I don't have any non-aero tubular wheels ready to go, haven't in many years. Hack Cat 3, nothing special.

[laupsi]

Can Ruckus or Calfe fix that or is it done?

actually have the extended warranty through LW :), they are taking care of it! cannnot say enough about their customer service, it's outstanding!!!

[FastforaSlowGuy]

I don't get why people care what pros train on. They train on whatever they're given to train on.

For me, I see my wheels as tools. I buy my stuff second hand to take the sting out of the cost, but bottom line is that I buy stuff to use it, not look at it. I wouldn't buy a nice hammer and reserve it for only striking nickel-plated nails.

For those who race a lot, I get the "race wheel" thing. Less use = less likely for something to go wrong in an event where any mechanical could end your day. If my tires are a bit worn, that won't make or break my fast group ride, but I might regret it when sliding out in a crit.

[cfox]

I don't have the riding time to bother distinguishing between fancy and non-fancy crap. In my limited time, I just ride the nicest stuff I can. I can't be bothered to swap stuff around any more.

[Mark McM]

And then to quote one of the articles:



This is where the pure physics explanation of biomechanics fails. Inefficiently and resulting fatigue come in at higher muscle tension, there's plenty of test data on that. If you build the model of a rider, and scale output of muscles based on the loss of efficiency, the output based on inertia of the system (the delta being rim weight) changes.

Well, the analysis in the quoted web page is incomplete, so may lead to incorrect conclusions. The analysis only looked at the change in pedal force due to the increase in mass of deep aerowheels. They neglected to also account for the reduction in aerodynamic drag. Aero wheels can reduce total aerodynamic drag by 2%-3%. If you reduce the aero drag in the example by 2%, the change in the peak pedal force is virtually zero. If you reduce the aero drag in the example by 3%, the peak pedal force is actually less than the with the lighter non-aero wheels. Therefore, less fatigue with the (heavier) aerowheels.

The data they use indicates that the system is slower only when there is a significant increase/decrease in speed based on where the pedals are - in the power phase the bike speeds up, at top and bottom the bike slows. F=M*A pretty much covers that.

Not when you use F=M*A correctly. The Force in this equation is not the force applied through the drivetrain by the rider, it is the net force, after the drag forces have been subtracted (aero, rolling resistance, drivetrain losses, etc.). If the reduction in aerodynamic drag is greater than the increase in mass/inertia, then it doesn't take more force to accelerate the heavier wheel.

[QUOTE=Ti Designs;1596632]Even on more gradual climbs where there is less change in speed, the peak forces on the muscles are higher. From what I can see, the calculations are made based on long term linear output from muscles. Forget the carbon wheels, where do I get that type of muscle fiber???

The example in the web page was for the special case of a high power acceleration. At steady state, the aero drag reduction reduces pedal load by an greater amount than increase due to the mass/inertia. So, even on moderate climbs, the lower total pedal loads means a reduction in the peak load.

For what it's worth, the aero wheel for hills argument is the same as the huge gear argument I have with some of my racers. I have a 56x11 on my bike, but I would never allow my riders to have such a silly gear. We've done fatigue testing on myself and a few of my past racers, came up with some data on peak force, fatigue cycles and muscle failure. I have built my weight training program around this data, pushing the fatigue strength of my larger muscle groups. Even so, for every minute spent in the 56x11 I probably spend 15 minutes rolling out sore muscles. It's an extreme case, but it shows the difference between a model based on motors which can handle higher stress without long term loss (electric motors can dissipate heat - muscles can't do the same with fatigue) and the real thing.

The aerowheel argument is nothing like the huge gear argument. If only the gearing is changed, the power is the same. But since the aerodrag reduction reduces the total load, there is reduction in both power and in the the steady state and peak pedal loads - therefore, at the same average speed, the fatigue with aerowheels can be reduced.

[firerescuefin]

I don't have the riding time to bother distinguishing between fancy and non-fancy crap. In my limited time, I just ride the nicest stuff I can. I can't be bothered to swap stuff around any more.

This^