Custom frame not to spec - part 2

[jmoore]

You might remember this contentious thread from a few months back.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=149506

Backstory:
my friend ordered a custom frame and got a bro deal. frame arrived and was not to spec. friend was distraught about how to proceed. I was apparently a big jerk (to some) for not calling out the builder in the thread. builder stepped up and offered a new frame no questions asked. win-win

The last two months:
It has been two months since the new frame was offered. My friend has tried three different PF30 bottom bracket adapters which have not worked. He emailed the builder and requested a Campy bottom bracket and compatible crank as a last resort, to try and make the frame work. He offered to front the cost for the crank in return for an equivalent break off the final frame price if it worked. If it was unsuitable, my friend would keep the crank and try and recoup his cost and wait for his new frame. The builder emailed my friend back with a story about how how they were already in the red on this frame and asked him to "sweeten the pot" a little to cover the costs on the new frame and paint. No comment on the bb and crank solution.

My friend is now distraught and does not want the new frame. Last week he emailed and requested a full refund and he would return the frame. Since that email the builder has been silent. No word from them in over a week.

Current situation:
My friend is completely fed up with the lack of movement on a solution of any kind, and, even worse, the lack of communications from the builder. The builder has no contact info anywhere aside from email. That is it. So he cannot call and talk this out. Email only. Complete silence.

He is now sitting on a custom frameset that is out of spec and half the agreed cost out of pocket. He wants his deposit back and will only surrender the frame when the money is returned. He requested this yesterday and still no word. He is now wondering if they have abandoned him and his frame to cut their losses. Is he the proud owner of a custom frameset with an incorrect BB for half price? Not sure, but that is what it looks like.

A final email was sent this morning telling them that unless he hears back today, then he will consider the frame his and he will begin the process of attempting to recoup his money by selling the frame.

Scorched earth via social media and bicycling forums is imminent if this is not resolved ASAP.


This is a colossal mess. I feel sorry for my friend and I'm completely put off by the puzzling actions of the builder. The reality is if they would have flipped him a new, correct frame super quick, I'd have been happy to spread the word to help them cut their losses on the other. That's not happening now.

[soulspinner]

Time to out him so nobody else takes a bath on their mistakes?

[MattTuck]

Without hearing the other side of the story, it sounds like the system worked as it should. The deposit helps to spread the risk in these transactions. So the builder doesn't invest time/money only to have the buyer vanish; and the buyer doesn't front 100% of the cost so that if something does go wrong, or the builder fails to deliver, they're not out 100% of the cost.

I'm sure there is a lot of 20/20 hindsight / monday morning quarterbacking that can be done in your friend's case.

PS. What is a 'bro deal' if you're not actually friends with the builder?

[jmoore]

Without hearing the other side of the story, it sounds like the system worked as it should. The deposit helps to spread the risk in these transactions. So the builder doesn't invest time/money only to have the buyer vanish; and the buyer doesn't front 100% of the cost so that if something does go wrong, or the builder fails to deliver, they're not out 100% of the cost.

I'm sure there is a lot of 20/20 hindsight / monday morning quarterbacking that can be done in your friend's case.

PS. What is a 'bro deal' if you're not actually friends with the builder?

There is not much other side of the story. The frame arrived and was out of spec based on the signed build sheet. Both parties agreed it was a mistake. My friend wanted it replaced and it's not getting replaced.

My friend works for a bike accessories company. He ordered the frame and the builder offered an "industry discount". The discount was not requested.

[kramnnim]

So...the builder offered to provide the correct frame, but has failed to do so? Is something wrong with the PF30 shell? (other than it being not what was ordered)

[kramnnim]

Also, what size is the frame? :banana:

[jmoore]

So...the builder offered to provide the correct frame, but has failed to do so? Is something wrong with the PF30 shell? (other than it being not what was ordered)

The PF30 bottom bracket was not what was spec'd. My friend tried 3 different adapters with no luck. He requested a PF30 bottom bracket and crank as a last try to attempt to ride the frame. That is when they went silent. So yes, the new frame is not coming and they aren't returning his communications. At all.


58.5 square, ENVE fork, internal routing, PF30 bottom bracket :D

[buldogge]

Not that it's the "correct" solution…but…why are none of the adapters working exactly???

-Mark in St. Louis

The PF30 bottom bracket was not what was spec'd. My friend tried 3 different adapters with no luck. He requested a PF30 bottom bracket and crank as a last try to attempt to ride the frame. That is when they went silent. So yes, the new frame is not coming and they aren't returning his communications. At all.


58.5 square, ENVE fork, internal routing, PF30 bottom bracket :D

[eBAUMANN]

really sorry to hear about your friends experience, sounds like a huge pain in the ass. that said, i am VERY interested as to who is running such a crappy operation while also offering "industry discounts"…

[kramnnim]

Not that it's the "correct" solution…but…why are none of the adapters working exactly???

-Mark in St. Louis

Yes, is something wrong with the shell itself?

[jmoore]

Not that it's the "correct" solution…but…why are none of the adapters working exactly???

-Mark in St. Louis

Don't know the answer to this. I am taking his word for it. No reason to doubt him though. He works part time at an LBS so certainly they have been assisting him with this build.

[jmoore]

Yes, is something wrong with the shell itself?

He ordered it with an English BB. They built it with a PF30 bb. That is what is wrong. The bike was not built to the agreed upon, signed, spec's.

[54ny77]

maybe offer to buy the framebuilder a magic jack. they're offering a risk-free 30 day trial.

:rolleyes:

[brando]

It's easy to say now but it sounds like the problem was straightforward but the solutions started getting complicated. What with waiting to see if the pf30 frame could work, maybe a different crank, who pays for what etc, maybe a replacement frame coming someday...?

I'd say he should refuse the frame, return it and get his money back. Clear and simple.

Thanks for the follow up, I would like to hear how it all ends.

[kramnnim]

He ordered it with an English BB. They built it with a PF30 bb. That is what is wrong. The bike was not built to the agreed upon, signed, spec's.

My question was the same as Mark's, why doesn't the PF30 shell work with the three adapters, is the shell itself faulty...etc. (and you've already answered that you don't know)

[CiclistiCliff]

If payment was done with a credit card, have your friend contact the CC company for a refund for 'items ordered and received not as advertised/agreed upon'.

I had to do this with Castelli a few years back on a custom kit order as they severely botched the colors and would not take responsibility for the issue.

I was refunded the complete payment.

If it was through check/debit card or paypal, you may be SOL until you hear back or magically receive compensation or the correct product from the builder.

Lastly, let us know who this builder is as it only will benefit the rest of the community and save others from such nightmare.

[christian]

Your friend's problem was dicking around with the crank solutions. Should've sent it back posthaste.

[charliedid]

Sour deal I guess...

I'd ride it

We are talking about a BB not 2 sizes too big or something

[eBAUMANN]

Sour deal I guess...

I'd ride it

We are talking about a BB not 2 sizes too big or something

kinda gotta agree here…at least its not bb30! heh

[jmoore]

It was paypal, paid in Jan. No recourse there.


What anyone else would do with the frame is not relevant, IMO. The builder acknowledged their mistake and promised to rebuild a new, correct frame. They now appear to be backing out of that and have gone silent.

The frame is staying with my friend until his deposit is repaid.

[93legendti]

"...Is he the proud owner of a custom frameset with an incorrect BB for half price? Not sure, but that is what it looks like.

A final email was sent this morning telling them that unless he hears back today, then he will consider the frame his and he will begin the process of attempting to recoup his money by selling the frame. "

Sounds like the only thing wrong with it is the type of bb it wil accept. For 1/2 price either sell it and possibly make money, or ride it with a different bb.

Not sure this is the same as a frame that is the wrong geo/doesn't fit or broke the first time she/he rode it...THIS frame is rideable at a steep discount....

Not my money, so I wouldn't scorch the earth over this, hope your friend can move forward somehow...

[CNY rider]

To the OP: What is your goal in posting this thread?

[oldguy00]

Why even bother to post these threads if you aren't going to name the builder?

[brando]

"...Is he the proud owner of a custom frameset with an incorrect BB for half price? Not sure, but that is what it looks like.

A final email was sent this morning telling them that unless he hears back today, then he will consider the frame his and he will begin the process of attempting to recoup his money by selling the frame. "

Did the builder offer this 1/2 price solution? If not, the buyer may be liable to owe for the whole amount on a frame he no longer possesses. Send it back. Otherwise it starts to look like trying to get away with a half-price frame, or free cranks or whatever else has been asked for. When none of those things were what the buyer contracted for in the first place.

[jr59]

"...Is he the proud owner of a custom frameset with an incorrect BB for half price? Not sure, but that is what it looks like.

A final email was sent this morning telling them that unless he hears back today, then he will consider the frame his and he will begin the process of attempting to recoup his money by selling the frame. "

Sounds like the only thing wrong with it is the type of bb it wil accept. For 1/2 price either sell it and possibly make money, or ride it with a different bb.

Not sure this is the same as a frame that is the wrong geo/doesn't fit or broke the first time she/he rode it...THIS frame is rideable at a steep discount....

Not my money, so I wouldn't scorch the earth over this, hope your friend can move forward somehow...

I'm pretty much in agreement with this. Your friend should be able to recoup .5 the cost of a new frame, or ride the hell out of the one he has for a 50% discount.

I've had it happen and ended up giving the frame away, just so I wouldn't have to deal with thinking about it every time I rode it.

[eddief]

are you doing this to us again? Tell your friend to grow a pair and deal with it himself. Why are you involved and torturing the forum with a bunch of he said, she said BS? I have a crappy brother and we don't don't do no more bro deals no more. This is why I hate BB30 :).

[ultraman6970]

Honestly... if you paid 50% you can't complain, I dont like the new BB standards but for 50% I would just use the darn frame. No offense ok? wonder if your friend is just anal with perfection? Some guys have to have perfection in everything and that blinds them sometimes of seeing the reality of the things... dunno your friend ok? so please no offense in my comment ok?

That said... if he got like a discount and he is still not happy well... doesnt surprise me the builder is not even bothering to answer emails, would you bother if you gave some money back for the mistake and the dude is still not happy???

From the builder standing point to fix that error, the whole frame needs to be disassembled, dunno if anybody thought on that. Yes... new down tube, new seat tube and new stays... the builder is better building a whole new frame and i'm sure he doesnt want to do it and that's why the 50% discount. Cheaper for the builder with the hope the dude is happy, I would not complain if it was my bike to be honest.

Use the discount to get new cranks of buy cups or something, then use the rest on going to watch a movie with the wife or g/f.

:)

[pbarry]

IIRC, in the original thread, the builder acknowledged the mistake and told your friend to just ride it until they got around to making a new frame. Curious to me, as they could have sold the mistake at a discount, before it had been built up and ridden.

Certainly, your bud has got a return shipping address. Time to write a letter, sent registered mail, stating that he's accepting the frame as-is for the sum of the deposit, unless the builder responds within X days.

[pbarry]

Honestly... if you paid 50% you can't complain, I dont like the new BB standards but for 50% I would just use the darn frame. No offense ok? wonder if your friend is just anal with perfection? Some guys have to have perfection in everything and that blinds them sometimes of seeing the reality of the things... dunno your friend ok? so please no offense in my comment ok?

That said... if he got like a discount and he is still not happy well... doesnt surprise me the builder is not even bothering to answer emails, would you bother if you gave some money back for the mistake and the dude is still not happy???

From the builder standing point to fix that error, the whole frame needs to be disassembled, dunno if anybody thought on that. Yes... new down tube, new seat tube and new stays... the builder is better building a whole new frame and i'm sure he doesnt want to do it and that's why the 50% discount. Cheaper for the builder with the hope the dude is happy, I would not complain if it was my bike to be honest.

Use the discount to get new cranks of buy cups or something, then use the rest on going to watch a movie with the wife or g/f.

:)

Good points, but the builder is not responding to communication. It appears they are tacitly walking away from the agreement, and, in effect, giving a 50% discount. But that's pure conjecture. Nothing agreed to.

[Llewellyn]

I'm just dying to know who the builder is :banana:

[Peter P.]

Everyone is suggesting the frame owner just keep the frame and ride it or sell it. But how can they do either when the PF30 shell is apparently not accepting any bottom brackets? Is the owner stuck with a true lemon?

Jason-I'm sure you'd like to help your friend out, which is why you're posting the saga here. I suggest you e-mail the builder yourself with a link to this thread and the original thread. Suggest to them that it's not a threat, but the builder's identity is about to go public in connection with this transaction and it might be worth their while to refund your friend's money before some bad publicity goes viral.

[jmoore]

I am doing this to update a previous thread that was contentious.


And the discount was offered when the order was placed. They did not offer him to take the frame for half price now. He owes the remainder of the bill but once again the frame was out of agreed upon specs. That was acknowledged and he was told it would be rectified. They are not honoring their word they gave two months ago.

My friend has been more.than patient. He is at the end and has.given them notice that he wants a refund multiple times with no response. Why would he send back a frame and expect them to refund him? They have not shown to be able to do that. It is his only leverage right now.

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[ultraman6970]

Thought the 50% was already fixed between them. Well that's sucks for the buyer then... :(

By the way, the new BB shell is out of specs or something??

Good points, but the builder is not responding to communication. It appears they are tacitly walking away from the agreement, and, in effect, giving a 50% discount. But that's pure conjecture. Nothing agreed to.

[ultraman6970]

From what I can understand he has the frame right now and still have some cash to pay to the builder??

Is the frame ok?? I mean rideable or have some problems??

I am doing this to update a previous thread that was contentious.


And the discount was offered when the order was placed. They did not offer him to take the frame for half price now. He owes the remainder of the bill but once again the frame was out of agreed upon specs. That was acknowledged and he was told it would be rectified. They are not honoring their word they gave two months ago.

My friend has been more.than patient. He is at the end and has.given them notice that he wants a refund multiple times with no response. Why would he send back a frame and expect them to refund him? They have not shown to be able to do that. It is his only leverage right now.

Sent from my XT1058 using Tapatalk

[jmoore]

From what I can understand he has the frame right now and still have some cash to pay to the builder??

Is the frame ok?? I mean rideable or have some problems??

Correct. He has a rideable frame now and owes the builder the remainder of the payment.

The adaptors don't work with his cranks. He asked for replacement cranks and a proper bb to make it work. The builder will not respond to that request either.

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[djdj]

methinks the point of this thread is to threaten the builder.

[pbarry]

Jmoore's handling of this and bringing it here is stand-up behavior. Only facts presented. Conjecture and the many calls in both threads re: "who is it??" are suspect on a public forum. Salem and all that...

The identity doesn't matter until it's settled, but the builder's/customer's communications do.

[jmoore]

Jmoore's handling of this and bringing it here is stand-up behavior. Only facts presented. Conjecture and the many calls in both threads re: "who is it??" are suspect on a public forum. Salem and all that...

The identity doesn't matter until it's settled, but the builder's/customer's communications do.

Thanks pbarry. I'm trying to do just that.


Trust me it is difficult to hold off. There are more details that are there that i havent discussed so I'm truly perplexed at the builder. The obvious solution has been available since day 1 but now they are stepping back for some reason.


When I get the go ahead, I will post the name. But not until my friend posts first. It will circulate quickly once it hits. And then we can all be outraged at the builder instead of me.

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[dekindy]

Cannot remember or unclear how buyer obtained completed custom frame with a 50% deposit but without paying remaining 50% of purchase price?

Was error discovered prior to or after delivery? If prior to delivery, what was the correspondence prior to shipment?

[pbarry]

After delivery afaik.

[AngryScientist]

i personally disapprove of this thread.

without naming the builder in question or the identity of the "friend" involved, no possible good can come of this thread. if the parties are identified, that opens some potential solutions:

-the rest of us can make a decision about working with the same builder, given the story

-other members here can help to identify other means of contacting the builder, aside from email, there are a lot of people here, who know a lot of people.

-identifying your friend, allows the builder to chime in here and tell his/her side of the story, if they so desire.

without any of the above, this is an unproductive thread.

IMO

[ultraman6970]

Ok... my take on this ok??

There's a lot of things to assume but well... he still has a debt, well... if the builder is not asking for it, then be it you know.

As for the crankset, honestly? probably the best and simplest thing to do is to just move them off here in the forums (sell or trade) and then get something else? At this point I bet that if your friend stop talking to the builder the builder won't say anything else either and between you and me sure whatever he paid in advance already covered all the costs for the builder and there is a big chance the builder wont even pursue the standing amount.

The Salomonic solution is just stop talking, dont think your friend is losing money at this point at all. After so many months and the lack of communication (from what I understood) the builder probably turned the page to this case already.

New cranks, sell the other ones (there are cups for almost everything now a days tho)... and ride happily ever after :)



Correct. He has a rideable frame now and owes the builder the remainder of the payment.

The adaptors don't work with his cranks. He asked for replacement cranks and a proper bb to make it work. The builder will not respond to that request either.

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[texbike]

methinks the point of this thread is to threaten the builder.

Bingo! I don't think that Jason wants to actually out the guy, but force his hand to take care of business.

[93legendti]

i personally disapprove of this thread.

without naming the builder in question or the identity of the "friend" involved, no possible good can come of this thread. if the parties are identified, that opens some potential solutions:

-the rest of us can make a decision about working with the same builder, given the story

-other members here can help to identify other means of contacting the builder, aside from email, there are a lot of people here, who know a lot of people.

-identifying your friend, allows the builder to chime in here and tell his/her side of the story, if they so desire.

without any of the above, this is an unproductive thread.

IMO

Agree. I don't understand what the goal is. Are we supposed to provide advice to the friend who can't go on any biking forum and get the advice him/herself?

[pbarry]

i personally disapprove of this thread.

without naming the builder in question or the identity of the "friend" involved, no possible good can come of this thread. if the parties are identified, that opens some potential solutions:

-the rest of us can make a decision about working with the same builder, given the story

-other members here can help to identify other means of contacting the builder, aside from email, there are a lot of people here, who know a lot of people.

-identifying your friend, allows the builder to chime in here and tell his/her side of the story, if they so desire.

without any of the above, this is an unproductive thread.

IMO

Wow. We can't have an emperical/hypothetical discussion?

[christian]

Sure, or we can have some sort of proto-extortion shenanigans.

[bcroslin]

This thread and the previous ought to be deleted. This thread is a threat plain and simple and is ridiculously axe-grindy. It's one more example of how poorly moderated this forum is.

[Javaman]

i personally disapprove of this thread.

without naming the builder in question or the identity of the "friend" involved, no possible good can come of this thread. if the parties are identified, that opens some potential solutions:

-the rest of us can make a decision about working with the same builder, given the story

-other members here can help to identify other means of contacting the builder, aside from email, there are a lot of people here, who know a lot of people.

-identifying your friend, allows the builder to chime in here and tell his/her side of the story, if they so desire.

without any of the above, this is an unproductive thread.

IMO

+1 not telling us who the builder is does not serve the forum any good. Ok so who is it? :D

[pbarry]

This thread and the previous ought to be deleted. This thread is a threat plain and simple and is ridiculously axe-grindy. It's one more example of how poorly moderated this forum is.

It would have been more so if builder was named. Inherently the two threads have not been "axe-grindy" since no one was named: Do you get that? If the builder was outed, then many here would be whining about how said builder was maligned. :confused:

[oldguy00]

This thread and the previous ought to be deleted. This thread is a threat plain and simple and is ridiculously axe-grindy. It's one more example of how poorly moderated this forum is.

Guess you are the only one that feels this way

[bobswire]

Without photos this thread is lacking,really really lacking.

[jimoots]

This thread and the previous ought to be deleted. This thread is a threat plain and simple and is ridiculously axe-grindy. It's one more example of how poorly moderated this forum is.

If this is as bad as it gets, I'd say we have a reasonable forum...

[melonyogloo]

It would have been more so if builder was named. Inherently the two threads have not been "axe-grindy" since no one was named: Do you get that? If the builder was outed, then many here would be whining about how said builder was maligned. :confused:

The threat is to oust him here if the builder does not comply to the demand. OP has no intention to name the builder at all. This thread is to force the builder to reply his (or his friend's) email, just like the original thread.

[pbarry]

The threat is to oust him here if the builder does not comply to the demand. OP has no intention to name the builder at all. This thread is to force the builder to reply his (or his friend's) email, just like the original thread.

Your first two sentences are in conflict. Not sure what your point is.

[Rada]

It would have been more so if builder was named. Inherently the two threads have not been "axe-grindy" since no one was named: Do you get that? If the builder was outed, then many here would be whining about how said builder was maligned. :confused:

"Scorched earth via social media and bicycling forums is imminent if this is not resolved ASAP."

Part of the OP's opening. maybe not "ax grindy", but I would put it in the threat category. Personally I don't think the OP is stand up at all and being a surrogate for the "friend" who is standing by to give the word to release the hounds doesn't pass my smell test.

[firerescuefin]

It's one more example of how poorly moderated this forum is.

I feel quite the opposite. Big place this internet. Hope you find somewhere that meets your expectations.

[pbarry]

"Scorched earth via social media and bicycling forums is imminent if this is not resolved ASAP."

Part of the OP's opening. maybe not "ax grindy", but I would put it in the threat category. Personally I don't think the OP is stand up at all and being a surrogate for the "friend" who is standing by to give the word to release the hounds doesn't pass my smell test.

Yeah, read that too, but nothing since has backed it up; quite the contrary has been observed despite the call for blood.

"Release the hounds" ?? Geez, fellas, stop watching PBS/and/or get a life.

[josephr]

Don't know the answer to this. I am taking his word for it. No reason to doubt him though. He works part time at an LBS so certainly they have been assisting him with this build.

If you're 'just taking his word for it"...then I think threatening to 'out him on the internet' is a jerk move on your part. If the buyer wants to 'out' him, tell him to sign up here and speak for himself. Why a 'reputable' builder would let an out of spec frame go out twice to the same customer raises flags in terms of communication skills from both parties.
Joe

[Rada]

Yeah, read that too, but nothing since has backed it up; quite the contrary has been observed despite the call for blood.

"Release the hounds" ?? Geez, fellas, stop watching PBS/and/or get a life.

Well there was also this: "When I get the go ahead, I will post the name. But not until my friend posts first. It will circulate quickly once it hits. And then we can all be outraged at the builder instead of me."


Which prompted the hounds reference.

...what's wrong with PBS?

[pbarry]

Well there was also this: "When I get the go ahead, I will post the name. But not until my friend posts first. It will circulate quickly once it hits. And then we can all be outraged at the builder instead of me."


Which prompted the hounds reference.

...what's wrong with PBS?

You're still going on the original post, and the OP has been circumspect in his comments since.

Nothing wrong with public television. Used as a prop in my comment. I contribute there and to NPR. :)

[charliedid]

I could care less who the builders is, things happen in this weird world of ours. I just want to hear the other side of this story, like nobody's business!

:-)

[Rada]

You're still going on the original post, and the OP has been circumspect in his comments since.

Nothing wrong with public television. Used as a prop in my comment. I contribute there and to NPR. :)

Nope, that was posted later today.(Pg3) Just realized thread was started today.

I figured that about your comment and just played along. Mostly I admit because my hounds comment was not so high, but got it from The Simpsons.:D

[Uncle Jam's Army]

^ You mean you couldn't care less, right?

I'm on pedantry patrol tonight :)

[pbarry]

If you're 'just taking his word for it"...then I think threatening to 'out him on the internet' is a jerk move on your part. If the buyer wants to 'out' him, tell him to sign up here and speak for himself. Why a 'reputable' builder would let an out of spec frame go out twice to the same customer raises flags in terms of communication skills from both parties.
Joe

Frame built incorrectly and shipped. OP has described the aftermath. Not sure where "go out twice" comes into play, or why the customer is at fault [in his communication, acknowledged by the builder] for not getting what he ordered.

[Vientomas]

The OP is using the Forum as a means to shame the builder and leverage a result for his buddy.

The intent of the OP is not to provide a PSA.

[Jason E]

Contributing just long enough to remind us that if we stop turning the pages we won't have to find the monster at the back of the book.

Going back to ignoring this nonsense. Ymmv.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[pbarry]

Nope, that was posted later today.(Pg3) Just realized thread was started today.

I figured that about your comment and just played along. Mostly I admit because my hounds comment was not so high, but got it from The Simpsons.:D

Ha! Love it. Thanks for a Mr. Burns reference. :beer:

[gasman]

OK
I think we have hashed this over as much as possible with the information given by the OP. We've heard all sides as far as I can tell. if more information is forthcoming ,great, otherwise I'm putting this to rest.