I think I learned something new yesterday,...

[Catulle]

...what do you think? Yesterday, I visited a small bike shop in CT and asked for foot beds. I explained to the good guy at the store that I used to have the ball of my right foot go to sleep after a couple of hours on the saddle, but that I had solved the problem to a great extent by moving the cleats as far back as possible (which ain't much with Campy cleats) and by switching the foot beds on my SIDI shoes.

He asked what shoes I wore and when I told him I wore SIDI Genius 5, he told me that the problem of numb feet is derived from the very stiff carbon sole. He went on to explain that for people like me, the correct shoe needed to have a bit of yield on the sole. Having the ball of the foot constantly pressed against the very stiff sole impedes proper circulation, he said. A shoe with a somewhat yielding sole would solve the problem.

His thesis makes sense to me. What do you guys think?

[Ray]

I thought Sidi always made it a point to make soles slightly LESS stiff than what some other manufacturers do for precisely that reason. I like a fairly stiff sole, but not totally rigid. A little bit of flex always felt better to me. So I think he's probably right. But, as usual, this is based on nothing but anecdote and intuition.

-Ray

[loctite]

he's full of crap, visit someone who nows about feet and cycling and who can make a cycling specific footbed. pm me if you need a recomendation.

[Frustration]

BS...


Sidi are not the stiffest sole out there. Also, if your sole flexed, it would bend around the pedal as you pressed down, causing a rise where the pedal and the ball of your foot are, putting even more pressure there. :no:

When you moved the cleats you took a little pressure off, but you may also have screwed your fit up a little as well.


Great foot beds let your entire foot become a contact patch and can also help how your knees track etc...


Hit up esoles.com...


Esoles (http://www.esoles.com)

[Climb01742]

you might also check out aline.com

[Birddog]

For what it's worth, I have had a similar experience. I have an old pair of Diadoras that are like old friends in terms of fit. They are slightly snug, but they've been like that for all of their 5 or 6 years. I also have a pair of Northwave (Evolutions?, not positive aboutthe model) which have a very stiff carbon fiber sole. I have custom footbeds (actually two different ones). After anywhere from 30 to 50 miles, I start to develop a neuropathy in first my left (the larger) and then the right. It starts at the great toe and spreads. The Northwave fit is very similar, except maybe a slightly larger and more comfortable toe box area. I have asked around, and a couple other riders have told me that they have heard of sililar experiences involving very stiff soled shoes. My experience is in no way scientific, but I think there is something to it.
I am currently in the market for new shoes, and "stiff but compliant" (where have I heard that before) is what I'm after.

Birddog

[SoCalSteve]

are not carbon soled shoes....Unless, you spent the extra $$$ and got their carbon soled versions.

I wear them exclusively (as they are one of the few shoes made in a 49) and have never had a problem with my feet going to sleep.

Good luck!

Steve

[Ti Designs]

I'm on the learning curve with the Aline system right now and I've been blown away with a few of the things I've learned thus far. The Aline system is a premade insole which is designed to support the foot across a series of arches, and uses tabs on the underside to change the angle or level of support. It's real strength isn't perfect support as custom footbeds would offer, but instead they locate the foot in position inside the shoe. Gordon, the guy who came up with they system seems way more concerned with the foot splaying out under force than with supporting just the instep.

My view of the system comes from fitting riders on bikes and seeing alignment on a dynamic basis. I check alignment change with a simple stressed/unstressed test. I have a rider on a treainer pedal with next to no resistance with a laser line going from hip to foot, across the knee. I watch from the front and see where the knee is tracking. I then switch them to a lot of resistance and continue to watch where the knee tracks. With poor foot support the tracking will change. With the Aline footbeds in I've seen very little of this problem, a stable foot makes for a much better power platform.

The data I've collected from the Alines just keeps getting better. I have a number of my riders in the gym doing the leg press in a cycling specific position. One of the riders recently went to the Alines in her cycling shoes. She tried using them for lifting and found that the added stability on the platform gave her an increase in peak weight. The same thing was echoed by all my other riders in a strength program.

The other day Thom Norton (our Aline rep and the go-to guy when it comes to fitting advice) showed me something that blew me away. I have a customer who's hips tilted way off to one side. There's clearly a femur length difference there, and about 40 years of natural adaptation. Problem is that the bike isn't designed for him. One of his hips is 4cm closer to the ends of the bars than the others. This measurment is far from exact, but it's such a huge difference that it doesn't need to be. Andy Pruit would have me change the cleat position to split the difference, but that always feels a little weird. Thom suggested I add a tab on the outside of the heel on the shorter side, keeping the front of the foot level. I've always felt that pinning at the heel does nothing in cycling because the pivot is at the ball of the foot, but twisting the foot slightly??? So far I only have two cases where I've tried this, but the feedback has been exelent. The tricky part is in knowing where to split the difference, but the Alines make that easy. Given a few seconds I can change tabs, so I start small and work my way up in time.

Alines do have their down sides. They are designed for location and support. They are the least breathable material in the world. My guess is as the warm weather gets here I'll start getting complaints. Another little down side is the comfort issue. Locate the foot better and you create constant pressure points. Add to that the lack of padding that they have and it can add up to pain. I have replaced the front of a number of Aline footbeds with the front end of other padded footbeds (held together with packing tape)...

[Climb01742]

I'm on the learning curve with the Aline system right now and I've been blown away with a few of the things I've learned thus far. The Aline system is a premade insole which is designed to support the foot across a series of arches, and uses tabs on the underside to change the angle or level of support. It's real strength isn't perfect support as custom footbeds would offer, but instead they locate the foot in position inside the shoe. Gordon, the guy who came up with they system seems way more concerned with the foot splaying out under force than with supporting just the instep.

My view of the system comes from fitting riders on bikes and seeing alignment on a dynamic basis. I check alignment change with a simple stressed/unstressed test. I have a rider on a treainer pedal with next to no resistance with a laser line going from hip to foot, across the knee. I watch from the front and see where the knee is tracking. I then switch them to a lot of resistance and continue to watch where the knee tracks. With poor foot support the tracking will change. With the Aline footbeds in I've seen very little of this problem, a stable foot makes for a much better power platform.

The data I've collected from the Alines just keeps getting better. I have a number of my riders in the gym doing the leg press in a cycling specific position. One of the riders recently went to the Alines in her cycling shoes. She tried using them for lifting and found that the added stability on the platform gave her an increase in peak weight. The same thing was echoed by all my other riders in a strength program.

The other day Thom Norton (our Aline rep and the go-to guy when it comes to fitting advice) showed me something that blew me away. I have a customer who's hips tilted way off to one side. There's clearly a femur length difference there, and about 40 years of natural adaptation. Problem is that the bike isn't designed for him. One of his hips is 4cm closer to the ends of the bars than the others. This measurment is far from exact, but it's such a huge difference that it doesn't need to be. Andy Pruit would have me change the cleat position to split the difference, but that always feels a little weird. Thom suggested I add a tab on the outside of the heel on the shorter side, keeping the front of the foot level. I've always felt that pinning at the heel does nothing in cycling because the pivot is at the ball of the foot, but twisting the foot slightly??? So far I only have two cases where I've tried this, but the feedback has been exelent. The tricky part is in knowing where to split the difference, but the Alines make that easy. Given a few seconds I can change tabs, so I start small and work my way up in time.

Alines do have their down sides. They are designed for location and support. They are the least breathable material in the world. My guess is as the warm weather gets here I'll start getting complaints. Another little down side is the comfort issue. Locate the foot better and you create constant pressure points. Add to that the lack of padding that they have and it can add up to pain. I have replaced the front of a number of Aline footbeds with the front end of other padded footbeds (held together with packing tape)...

i've been experimenting with alines too, also under thom's guidance. i've tried a lot of footbeds over the years. some for running, some for cycling. what sets aline apart for me are a couple of things:

they don't involve a mold, then a footbed. even done by an excellent "molder", there is a margin for error...error in taking the mold...error in going from the mold to the footbed...error is constructing the footbed. the more steps, the more chance for error or variation. even a tiny variation can throw things off.

footbeds tend to be static, take it or leave it things. once they're made, they're pretty much what they are. alines are highly, and easily, modifiable. you can tweak them realtime. and multiple times, over time.

alines don't eat up the volume in your shoes. with some footbeds, your feet can barely squeeze into the shoes. not with alines.

alines are fitted on a special platform. this platform a show you, in real time, the misalignment you begin with, then the correction as it's made.

thom fitted me. then i rode in them for awhile. they weren't quite right. thom tweaked them. now they seem really dialed in.

finally, alines are MUCH cheaper than most other footbeds, especially custom molded footbeds. so far, alines are the best footbeds i've found.

[Needs Help]

Gordon, the guy who came up with they system seems way more concerned with the foot splaying out under force than with supporting just the instep.
I don't really understand the theory of footbeds. As I understand it, the arch of the foot is there to protect the foot by bending and flattening under force. If you fill up the arch with a footbed aren't you asking for injuries. I can understand why if you were a professional skier you might take that risk--you might be willing to trade less impact absorption for faster response time edge to edge. But what's the point in cycling? And wouldn't footbeds be more likely to lead to long term injuries?

[loctite]

I don't really understand the theory of footbeds. As I understand it, the arch of the foot is there to protect the foot by bending and flattening under force. If you fill up the arch with a footbed aren't you asking for injuries. I can understand why if you were a professional skier you might take that risk--you might be willing to trade less impact absorption for faster response time edge to edge. But what's the point in cycling? And wouldn't footbeds be more likely to lead to long term injuries?

You are correct that pronation is the body’s natural way to absorb impact when you run and walk. It is the collapsing of the arch and flattening of the foot when you weight it. When you are cycling however, there is no impact to absorb. Your feet act as the foundation to the rest of the body. Think of it like a foundation of a building, if the foundation is not neutral and stable it will collapse and cause the building above it to do the same. When cycling you want your foot to be in subtaylor (sp) neutral, that way you have a firm stable foundation and be able to get maximum power to the pedal without the rest of your skeletal structure being thrown out of whack.

99 percent of cyclist would benefit from a cycling specific footbed, look at every pro today, almost all of them will have a footbed in their shoes.

However, someone else made a good point, if the tech that makes your footbed is not EXTREAMLY knowledgeable it is likely that he/she will simply capture the pronation while taking the mold, useless. The tech must know how to hold the foot in the subtaylor neutral position, while taking the mold. And contrary to what was said earlier, if it is done correctly it is almost flawless.

I am a skeptic of the aline system, its a good idea but leaves it up to the consumer to try to correct the problem, when most likely he/she has no clue what he is doing and speaking on the phone with someone at aline is all but useless.

[Hysbrian]

I've never got the aline process, but I do use superfeet (In all of my shoes).

They're awesome solid arch support, and last a long time because they use a hard plastic bottom, unlike most.

[Needs Help]

When you are cycling however, there is no impact to absorb
I don't get that. Is there a qualitative difference from the force felt by your foot if you jump off a 4 foot wall vs. the force felt by your foot when you use your quads/glutes to push your foot into a pedal?

[Grant McLean]

I'm on the learning curve with the Aline system right now and I've been blown away with a few of the things I've learned thus far. The Aline system is a premade insole which is designed to support the foot across a series of arches, and uses tabs on the underside to change the angle or level of support. It's real strength isn't perfect support as custom footbeds would offer, but instead they locate the foot in position inside the shoe. Gordon, the guy who came up with they system seems way more concerned with the foot splaying out under force than with supporting just the instep.

My view of the system comes from fitting riders on bikes and seeing alignment on a dynamic basis. I check alignment change with a simple stressed/unstressed test. I have a rider on a treainer pedal with next to no resistance with a laser line going from hip to foot, across the knee. I watch from the front and see where the knee is tracking. I then switch them to a lot of resistance and continue to watch where the knee tracks. With poor foot support the tracking will change. With the Aline footbeds in I've seen very little of this problem, a stable foot makes for a much better power platform.

The data I've collected from the Alines just keeps getting better. I have a number of my riders in the gym doing the leg press in a cycling specific position. One of the riders recently went to the Alines in her cycling shoes. She tried using them for lifting and found that the added stability on the platform gave her an increase in peak weight. The same thing was echoed by all my other riders in a strength program.

The other day Thom Norton (our Aline rep and the go-to guy when it comes to fitting advice) showed me something that blew me away. I have a customer who's hips tilted way off to one side. There's clearly a femur length difference there, and about 40 years of natural adaptation. Problem is that the bike isn't designed for him. One of his hips is 4cm closer to the ends of the bars than the others. This measurment is far from exact, but it's such a huge difference that it doesn't need to be. Andy Pruit would have me change the cleat position to split the difference, but that always feels a little weird. Thom suggested I add a tab on the outside of the heel on the shorter side, keeping the front of the foot level. I've always felt that pinning at the heel does nothing in cycling because the pivot is at the ball of the foot, but twisting the foot slightly??? So far I only have two cases where I've tried this, but the feedback has been exelent. The tricky part is in knowing where to split the difference, but the Alines make that easy. Given a few seconds I can change tabs, so I start small and work my way up in time.

Alines do have their down sides. They are designed for location and support. They are the least breathable material in the world. My guess is as the warm weather gets here I'll start getting complaints. Another little down side is the comfort issue. Locate the foot better and you create constant pressure points. Add to that the lack of padding that they have and it can add up to pain. I have replaced the front of a number of Aline footbeds with the front end of other padded footbeds (held together with packing tape)...

Ti, word. great post.

Last summer I had my first experience with custom footbeds, and now I can't
believe I never did this before. I think everyone should consider/reconsider
looking at starting their fit process with the feet and also cleat alignment.
On the breatheabilty issue, I was concerned of they would be hot, just
becuase so much more of my feet were in contact with the footbed then
before. It ended up being a non issue for me. I did try punching a bunch
of holes in the forefoot of my first pair, and replacing the top sheet with
some coolmax fabric sheit, but I bailed on that whole thing when I had
a set of "conformable" customs remade.

-g

[Hysbrian]

is like this:

If you jump off a 4ft wall and land on the ground the arch in your foot helps ease the impact. The force is in only one direction and if your arch didn't fall (at least a little) it would hurt other parts of your body.

While cycling the force is in a constantly changing direction, and because of this when your arch falls, it leads to a loss of power. I think that is has a lot to do with the ever changing direction of the applied forces though.

[Grant McLean]

It's not really that complex.

The "spring" that is the foot wants to load and unload with every pedal
revolution. However you go about it, if all the bits and pieces of yer foot
are stabilized in the shoe, then there is nothing happening at each pedal
stroke . As Ti-man mentioned, the tracking of your knee doesn't wobble
when your foot is immobilized, it gets prevented by not letting the arch
collapse.

-g

[Needs Help]

The "spring" that is the foot wants to load and unload with every pedal
revolution.
...which seems like the natural way your foot should work.

However you go about it, if all the bits and pieces of yer foot
are stabilized in the shoe, then there is nothing happening at each pedal
stroke .

Why is that necessarily a good thing?

As Ti-man mentioned, the tracking of your knee doesn't wobble
when your foot is immobilized, it gets prevented by not letting the arch
collapse.
First, I wonder how many people's knees actually wobble in the first place. Secondly, I wonder why a wobbling knee is bad if that is the response when your arch absorbs shock? It seems to me that your arch was designed to absorb forces on your foot and if you try to inhibit that biomechanical action, then you could suffer some chronic ailments as a result.

It seems to me, the whole footbed industry could just be marketing hype. Sure, there might be a few people with certain biomechanical issues that can benefit from a footbed, but I don't understand how you go from there to saying that everyone should use footbeds.

[72gmc]

I became a footbed user almost 20 years ago, when I tried molded footbeds in my ski boots. Nothing corrective, just a custom and supportive fit. I was a teenage kid in great shape and after one day on the hill I could feel the difference. I've used at least arch support inserts if not footbeds ever since.

My experience is that proper support of the foot can alleviate strain all the way up the leg, and into the lower back. I've noticed the greatest effect while skiing, probably because the forces on my feet are greater, but it's my belief that good insoles make my cycling, hiking, and office shoes fit better and support me better.

They're worth exploring if only for the fact that they help the heel and foot stay in a consistent position in the shoe. Fatigue that starts in the feet tends to work its way up.

[Catulle]

Thank you so much for your responses. I'll follow up on your suggestions.

[shinomaster]

Over-tightening the velcro is guaranteed way to make you foot fall asleep. You don't need to clamp down unless you are in a sprint, or a race. Ride around with looser velcro.

[shaq-d]

along the shino's lines, i'd say go a size up on a shoe. most peep's shoes are too small.

sd

[Climb01742]

The tech must know how to hold the foot in the subtaylor neutral position, while taking the mold. And contrary to what was said earlier, if it is done correctly it is almost flawless.

I am a skeptic of the aline system, its a good idea but leaves it up to the consumer to try to correct the problem, when most likely he/she has no clue what he is doing and speaking on the phone with someone at aline is all but useless.

everyone's experience is difference. i had my first running footbed made in 1986 and have had running ones every step and mile since then, and have had cycling footbeds for the past 10 years. "flawless" is, i believe, an overstatement. i do believe that most riders would benefit from footbeds, but custom footbeds vary greatly. i happen to have quite a nice little collection of them at the moment. the variation is striking. the variation is due, i believe, to how the various techs molded the foot-impression and then the footbed. i believe the aline system addresses this issue. and other footbeds are, i believe, less "tweakable", less adjustable over time. and no, the aline system doesn't leave it up to the customer to correct the problem, and nor does the customer need to talk to anyone at aline on the phone. trained shop personnel "fit" the alines. as i said, everyone's experiences are different. these comments reflect mine. YMMV.

[William]

What is the average cost of the Alines? I see there is a local shop that carries these. I've looked at footbeds & liners but my feet are already snug in my shoes and many of the ones I've checked out so far were really too thick to put in my shoe and still get my feet in comfortably.


William

[Grant McLean]

...which seems like the natural way your foot should work.
Why is that necessarily a good thing?

First, I wonder how many people's knees actually wobble in the first place. Secondly, I wonder why a wobbling knee is bad if that is the response when your arch absorbs shock? It seems to me that your arch was designed to absorb forces on your foot and if you try to inhibit that biomechanical action, then you could suffer some chronic ailments as a result.

It seems to me, the whole footbed industry could just be marketing hype. Sure, there might be a few people with certain biomechanical issues that can benefit from a footbed, but I don't understand how you go from there to saying that everyone should use footbeds.


First of all, I didn't see a suggestion that everyone should just "use foot-beds".
I said they should consider it, as in get your feet checked by someone who
knows what they are doing.

A wobbling knee can cause issues of tracking, and cause all kinds of
knee issues in itself. Sure, not everyone has this issue, again, the point
is not that there is one solution for 100% of the people, the point is that
if you've been riding for a while, and never given any of these things some
attention, maybe it's a good idea to check it out.

There is nothing positive about your foot collapsing at each pedal stroke.
It's possibly a very bad thing. Besides that you are not efficiently getting
power to the pedals, it is potentially causing misalignment issues in the
process that can have problems for ankles, knees, hips, and back.

-g

[loctite]

First of all, I didn't see a suggestion that everyone should just "use foot-beds".
-g

I Did, every cyclist should have custom footbeds, its one of the most important components of eficent cycling.

[Hysbrian]

I Did, every cyclist should have custom footbeds, its one of the most important components of eficent cycling.

and it one of the things that you don't notice until you try. The $50 that a pair of non-customs is going to cost is a marginal expense to the increase in comfort/performance.

[Climb01742]

I Did, every cyclist should have custom footbeds, its one of the most important components of eficent cycling.

riders, and runners, with perfect alignment don't need footbeds. the rest of us can, i think, benefit greatly. i ain't a doctor, but i'd guess that the vast, vast percentage of knee, hip and back pain can be helped by supporting and guiding the foot better. many of these issues may actually begin in the foot. loctite and i may differ on what method is best to help, but i strongly agree with him that looking at your feet is a great place to begin.

[Grant McLean]

I Did, every cyclist should have custom footbeds, its one of the most important components of eficent cycling.

"99 percent of cyclist would benefit from a cycling specific footbed, look at every pro today, almost all of them will have a footbed in their shoes."

actually, you said 99%

-g

[loctite]

Blah, blah, blah, so i did! ;)

[Grant McLean]

Blah, blah, blah, so i did! ;)


We're on the same page.

-g

[chrisroph]

I've been using custom footbeds for over 20 years and they, coupled with time pedals, are the reason that I can cycle pain free. I had terrible patellar tendinitis before having the footbeds made. Over the years, I've tried newer and different footbeds but I always go back to the ones I had built ages ago. I have adjusted the post with duct taped plastic shims and I periodically change the forefoot area. William, most custom footbeds are thick enough that you need to fit shoes with the footbeds in mind. I use carnace because of their depth.

[Needs Help]

There is nothing positive about your foot collapsing at each pedal stroke.
How come?

Besides that you are not efficiently getting
power to the pedals
How so?

[loctite]

:crap: :crap: :crap:

Think about it, what would the house do if the foundation collapsed?

And why are cycling shoes so stiff? Any flex (that includes foot flex) is a loss of power. You want a square, solid, stable platform to put maximum power to the pedal.

M'kay.

[zap]

Actually, it's not that bad of an idea to have your arch collapse a bit. I'm all for insoles and do have customs that firmly support the arch, but it's too much for cycling or running. So what I seek is motion control much like motion control running shoes that I like.

The body can give a bit before anything adverse happens. I have flat feet, so what appears to work best for me is controlling the amount of arch collapse.

Same thing with cycling shoes. A bit of give seems to be a pretty good idea. One reason why Sidi's seem to go over well with many cyclists. Sidi's are one of the more flexible shoes.

Go to cyclingnews.com for greater insight.

[Grant McLean]

How come?

How so?

Try putting foam blocks on top of the gas and brake pedals
in your car and get back to me...

-g

[Needs Help]

Try putting foam blocks on top of the gas and brake pedals
in your car and get back to me...

Will it require more gas to get where I'm going? If I substitute all carbon gas and brake pedals for the rubber ones I have now, will I save gas? What if I use footbeds in my shoes while I'm driving, will that save gas?

[Grant McLean]

Will it require more gas to get where I'm going?

I'm not sure you are going anywhere.
It seems like you are stuck in neutral.
Select a gear, and move on.


-g

[loctite]

I'm not sure you are going anywhere.
It seems like you are stuck in neutral.
Select a gear, and move on.


-g


Post of the day!

[Climb01742]

I'm not sure you are going anywhere.
It seems like you are stuck in neutral.
Select a gear, and move on.


-g

yes, very well said.

[manet]

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=stiff&word2=soft

[Grant McLean]

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=stiff&word2=soft

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=footbed&word2=waterbed

-g

[The Spider]

Velonews did a test of 15 carbon soles for deflection / flex last year. The Sidi (ERGO 1, but the same carbon sole is used in the energy and genius 5 carbon) is the least stiff of the bunch. The Sidi's were also voted the most comfortable.

Anyone have any dealings with SOLE custom footbeds?

[Climb01742]

i'd be curious about what "most comfortable" was based on. IMO, sidi's definitely have the most comfortable upper. hands down. for me, though, soles were too flexy. would love to ride in sidi's, just for the upper. funny. each to his own, eh? shimano r215 have the sole that works best for me. let's see, could i glue a sidi upper...

[Catulle]

Velonews did a test of 15 carbon soles for deflection / flex last year. The Sidi (ERGO 1, but the same carbon sole is used in the energy and genius 5 carbon) is the least stiff of the bunch. The Sidi's were also voted the most comfortable.

Anyone have any dealings with SOLE custom footbeds?

The guy at the store I visited had some on his Nike shoes. He swears by them. He showed them to me and recommended I get some. They seem pretty thick/cushy, more so than the Superfeet I have, but when I squezzed the ball of the feet area they were rather firm. I´ll try to get a pair to try them out but I´m concerned about the thickness of the SOLE footbed creating a tight fitting shoe.

[Frustration]

The problem with SOLE beds is that they are not as solid as they need to be under high stress. That "Cushy" feel isn't really what you want in a cycling shoe bed.


I really love the ESOLES.COM (http://esoles.com) foot beds as they don't require (or allow for) self adjusting and messing about. They are custom beds made for your feet, without the guess work (and potential error) of a few other products...

They also had a pretty good Tour Of California taking almost all the stages as well as the overall.

Hincapie, Landis, Zabriski and Levi are ALL in Esoles....


and no, I don't work there... I just have a set as I live in AZ and have been to the place they're made...