Superbe Pro + Ergopower?

[ceolwulf]

Talk of Suntour led me to a slightly daft idea. The last Superbe Pro was available with an eight speed cassette. Would it be possible to control an eight speed Suntour drivetrain with eight speed Campy shifters and a gizmo like the Jtek Shiftmate, probably custom made?

[oliver1850]

I'm running 8 speed Superbe Pro on a Serotta with Heliums and Shimano cassette. I'm guessing what you suggest could be made to work, maybe even without a JTek. It might take some manipulation of the cable attachment point, cassette spacers, or possibly a Sachs Ergo index gear.

If you're really serious about it I could give it a try. Not sure I want to go through the whole process of making a workable setup, but I could see how far off it is initially without much trouble.

[Vinci]

I can tell you from experience that a 7-speed Suntour drivetrain won't work smoothly with 7-speed Shimano indexed shifting.

I can't speak to Campy, though.

[ceolwulf]

If you're really serious about it


Not remotely, just thought it would be a really cool setup. So you don't see any technical reason for this not to work?

[thirdgenbird]

Shouldn't be too hard to test with a suntour and campy bike.

1. Mark exposed cable with tape
2. Mark downtube next to exposed cable with tape
3. Shift
4. Measure cable pull
5. Repeat steps 3-4 for all 7 clicks
6. Compare cable pull measurements

[Mark McM]

Another wrinkle that you have to account for is the difference in sprocket spacing between Suntour and Campagnolo. While the total width of the cassettes is almost identical, Campagnolo cassettes are evenly spaced, while Suntour cassettes had variable spacing. Specifically, on Campagnolo cassettes all the spacers are 3.0mm; on Suntour cassettes, the top two spacers are 3.3mm, the next two are 3.0mm, and the bottom three are 2.8mm.

[bikinchris]

Agreed. All you really need is to measure the thickness of the cogs and spacers. As long as the center of the cogs are the right distance apart, it will shift well. I am pretty sure IRD or someone like that already makes spacers to make it work.

Of course, that means Campy shifter and rear derailleur. I sold my last Campy wide range 8 speed derailleur.

[thirdgenbird]

Another wrinkle that you have to account for is the difference in sprocket spacing between Suntour and Campagnolo. While the total width of the cassettes is almost identical, Campagnolo cassettes are evenly spaced, while Suntour cassettes had variable spacing. Specifically, on Campagnolo cassettes all the spacers are 3.0mm; on Suntour cassettes, the top two spacers are 3.3mm, the next two are 3.0mm, and the bottom three are 2.8mm.

If the shifters had the same pull, thry would be swappable provided the RD and cassettes stayed together. This is the same concept behind campy 10 levers with shimano 8. Cable pull is close enough.

You do bring up a good point though. If cable pull in my test is not the same, the superbe RD still could have the same articulation ratio allowing superbe derailleurs with a campy shifter and cassette.

[Mark McM]

If the shifters had the same pull, thry would be swappable provided the RD and cassettes stayed together. This is the same concept behind campy 10 levers with shimano 8. Cable pull is close enough.


It doesn't quite work that way - there are three components - shifter, derailleur and cassette. You have to match (or adapt) all three together. Cassettes with equally matched sprockets should be used with shifters with equally spaced detents (Campagnolo, Shimano, SRAM); but cassettes with unequally matched sprockets should be used with shifters with unequally matched unequally spaced detents.

When I used Campagnolo shifters/derailleurs with a Suntour cassette, I had to respace the cassette so that they were sprockets were equally spaced. Since all Suntour cassettes used loose sprockets and spacers, this was easily done.

[Ralph]

8 speed Campy cassette is 5 mm center to center of cassette cog. That's what 8 speed Ergo's designed for. Same as current Shimano 7 speed HG freewheel (the ones you see cheap on E Bay). Same as most Sachs 7 speed freewheels (some were 4.8 center to center).

The Suntour Superbe Pro 7 speed freeewheels, as I recall, weren't all the same center to center of cog....on same freewheel. Don't know about the 8 speed Suntour cassette. Give it a try.

You can run a 8 speed Ergo's with Shimnao 7 speed HG freewheels on Sun Tour (or any other) Freewheel hub.. Just block off final cog.

[Mark McM]

8 speed Campy cassette is 5 mm center to center of cassette cog. That's what 8 speed Ergo's designed for. Same as current Shimano 7 speed HG freewheel (the ones you see cheap on E Bay). Same as most Sachs 7 speed freewheels (some were 4.8 center to center).

The Suntour Superbe Pro 7 speed freeewheels, as I recall, weren't all the same center to center of cog. Don't know about the 8 speed Suntour cassette. Give it a try.

Yes. On Suntour 8spd cassettes, the center to center spacing between the 1st/2nd and 2nd/3rd sprockets (from the top) was 5.2mm. The spacing between the 3rd/4th and 4th/5th sprockets was 4.9 mm, and the spacing for the rest of the sprockets was 4.7mm. (The average spacing was thus 4.9mm, or halfway between Shimano and Campagnolo.) In order to make the cassette compatible with Campagnolo shifting, I replaced the spacers so that they were all 5.0mm center to center.

[thirdgenbird]

It doesn't quite work that way - there are three components - shifter, derailleur and cassette. You have to match (or adapt) all three together. Cassettes with equally matched sprockets should be used with shifters with equally spaced detents (Campagnolo, Shimano, SRAM); but cassettes with unequally matched sprockets should be used with shifters with unequally matched unequally spaced detents.

When I used Campagnolo shifters/derailleurs with a Suntour cassette, I had to respace the cassette so that they were sprockets were equally spaced. Since all Suntour cassettes used loose sprockets and spacers, this was easily done.

It does work that way. I understand the theory perfectly. I've done lots of mix and match... I just did not know suntour used uneven spacing.

If the cable pull ratio were the same for both shifters, cog center to center could differ like campy 10 and shimano 8. The shifter would be doing its part of the three part equation the same, the RD would interpret it the same, and move the chain the same difference.

Your added knowledge that the cogs are unevenly spaced proves that the shifters do not pull the same amount of cable. This supports my original statement unless the RD somehow changes ratio.

[Mark McM]

It does work that way. I understand the theory perfectly. I've done lots of mix and match... I just did not know suntour used uneven spacing.

If the cable pull ratio were the same for both shifters, cog center to center could differ like campy 10 and shimano 8. The shifter would be doing its part of the three part equation the same, the RD would interpret it the same, and move the chain the same difference.

Your added knowledge that the cogs are unevenly spaced proves that the shifters do not pull the same amount of cable. This supports my original statement unless the RD somehow changes ratio.

I probably didn't explain myself clearly. Merely keeping the rear derailleur and the cassette together, as you claimed, is not enough to account for the variable sprocket spacing of the Suntour cassette when using Campagnolo shifters. Since Campagnolo shifters have equally spaced detents, they will move the Suntour derailleur equal lateral distances per shift - which will not match the unequal lateral spacing of the Suntour cassette. To make this system work, you'd either have to somehow make the Campagnolo shifter detent spacing match the uneven detents of the Suntour shifters (very difficult), or modify the Suntour cassette to space the sprockets equal distances (much easier).

Matching the relative spacing of the cassette to the relative spacing of the shifter detents is what I meant about having to match all three components. Shimano and Campagnolo cassettes coincidentally both have evenly spaced sprockets, so this variable is already taken care of for you when you mix-and-match Campagnolo and Shimano drivetrain components. But if you add a Suntour shifter or cassette into the equation, you may have to perform extra compensation to get it to work properly.

[thirdgenbird]

No, you were perfectly clear and I already understood.

I said that if cable pull is equal between shifters, a system will work if the rd and cassette are kept together. This is always 100% true. It's not the only mix and match scenario, but it's the easiest.

I did not know that suntour had uneven cog spacing and therefore uneven cable pull ie not the same as campy. You proved it would not work using the exact go no go I suggested.

Your talking to someone that has modified campy 8 shifters to perfectly index a campy 10 cassette.

[oldpotatoe]

and be done with it..geezz

[thirdgenbird]

:)

[csm]

I managed to get superbe pro dt shifters to index nicely with early campy synchro.


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[oliver1850]

I managed to get superbe pro dt shifters to index nicely with early campy synchro.


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Which RD and what cogset?

[csm]

Chorus synchro 2? Was that 8 SPD?


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[Wilkinson4]

and be done with it..geezz

Name that bike!!! Got some red veloplugs for the correct answer. I think a name that bike sticky may be in order:)

mIKE