wheelbuilding 101, what tension on the meter?

[eddief]

built first wheel, a front one with A23 28 hole rim, Sapim Race spokes, bikehubstore front hub, 2 cross pattern. I have a truing stand and Park Tension Meter. Spokes measure at 1.8 on the spoke checker thingy.

How does one know, using the meter, the correct tension for the finished wheel. It is now true and round-ish, and the tension meter says 20 or 89kgf all the way around on all the spokes. They feel pretty damn, maybe too damn tight. But how do you know what's right?

[kramnnim]

People usually say to aim for around 100kgf, something must be up with your tensiometer?

(Edit- the above comment was made prior to the OP editing his post)

[Don49]

Can you find your spoke on the Park Conversion Table? http://www.parktool.com/documents/85161752fcd5df39d15205f80776303d05e6c84c.pdf

89kgf is pretty close to the 100kgf that kramnnim is suggesting.

I have a TM-1 but can't help anymore than that. Most be a wheel builder around here somewhere.

[bikinchris]

People usually say to aim for around 100kgf, something must be up with your tensiometer?

It depends on the number of spokes. Fewer spokes will need more tension to be able to hold the weight. Don't tension a 48 spoke wheel to 100kgf! (not that you see those much anymore) For a 28 or 32 spoke wheel, that's okay.

[bikinchris]

built first wheel, a front one with A23 28 hole rim, Sapim Race spokes, bikehubstore front hub, 2 cross pattern. I have a truing stand and Park Tension Meter. Spokes measure at 1.8 on the spoke checker thingy.

How does one know, using the meter, the correct tension for the finished wheel. It is now true and round-ish, and the tension meter says 20 or 89kgf all the way around on all the spokes. They feel pretty damn, maybe too damn tight. But how do you know what's right?

If you grab parallel spokes with both hands and squeeze them hard, the wheel should stay true once you let go. On the other hand, if you squeeze them and the wheel is deformed, the spokes are too tight. Back off the tension.

[rinconryder]

How did you find the experience? I was thinking about taking a go at wheel building. Would love to hear your thoughts.

[jvp]

You can look up (somewhere) what the recommended tension range for your spokes should be. I have several bikes and when I build another wheelset I use an already built wheel with similar spokes to measure with my gauge, then shoot for that. Plus plucking the built wheel for sound comparison. Works for me!

[eddief]

I have been collecting the tools for a while, so finally decided to take the plunge to do the build. After all, what the hell is the nipple driver, tension meter, spoke ruler, permatex, and truing stand going to do just sitting in the garage?

I am not very good at spatial relationships or being patient. Actually, the first wheel was a rear built up a couple of weeks ago. I tried a few times to lace it but just could not get all the variables; key spoke, innies, outies, trailing, leading, over, under. I read a bunch and watched and rewatched youtubes over and over again

In the end, I pretty much watched a friend build that wheel for me, but learned a lot in the process.

I thought then I could duplicate the 2x pattern of the rear on the front wheel and that helped with the lacing of the front.

And now it is together and just about done just right. Will do more when the need arises. I do almost all my other wrenching and thought it was time to take up the wheel challenge.

If we can learn how to drive and ride a bike, we can learn just about anything...but it will take practice as did those other things.

How did you find the experience? I was thinking about taking a go at wheel building. Would love to hear your thoughts.

[R3awak3n]

I also just learned how to build my own wheels. I bought the Rogen Musson book which is amazing for learning how to lace the wheel but after its laced I feel like its trial and error (truing and tension part, its hard to explain in a book and just really needs to be done a few times).

I built the rear wheel first and it was pretty fun. I built it a couple of times to practice, definitely got the size of the spokes wrong but it was rideable. Built the front wheel which was much much easier since you can keep same tension all around and no dish.

Road the wheel for a couple of rides and one spoke came completely untensioned :(. Decided to order the right length spokes (the ones that were on the wheel could be fine but I am obsessive lol). Rebuilt the wheel and rode it the past week and its been great. Definitely nice skill to learn and I enjoy it.


Also I tried to do 100kgf in the front and 120kgf in the back but I think the back came out a little higher (the drive side spokes)

[bikinchris]

I also just learned how to build my own wheels. I bought the Rogen Musson book which is amazing for learning how to lace the wheel but after its laced I feel like its trial and error (truing and tension part, its hard to explain in a book and just really needs to be done a few times).

I built the rear wheel first and it was pretty fun. I built it a couple of times to practice, definitely got the size of the spokes wrong but it was rideable. Built the front wheel which was much much easier since you can keep same tension all around and no dish.

Road the wheel for a couple of rides and one spoke came completely untensioned :(. Decided to order the right length spokes (the ones that were on the wheel could be fine but I am obsessive lol). Rebuilt the wheel and rode it the past week and its been great. Definitely nice skill to learn and I enjoy it.


Also I tried to do 100kgf in the front and 120kgf in the back but I think the back came out a little higher (the drive side spokes)

Most rims can't take 120kgf without breaking.

[R3awak3n]

huh?

http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/wheel-tension-measurement

Shows a bunch of rims that can take more than 120kgf.

[bikinchris]

huh?

http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/wheel-tension-measurement

Shows a bunch of rims that can take more than 120kgf.

You just proved my point. Most of the rims on that chart are low spoke count rims like the Bontrager X lite. That chart by no means has all rims on it.

[kramnnim]

Well, Velocity says 110-130, maybe the OP should go by that.

http://www.velocityusa.com/tech/rims/

[ergott]

Most rims can't take 120kgf without breaking.

Not my experience at all. Most modern rims can be built up to 120kgf.

OP, I don't remember the Park chart anymore, but go for 110kgf front and 120kgf for the right rear side. Left rear is what it is when the rim is centered properly.

[eddief]

not only do my spokes "seem" tight, there are 2 or 3 threads still sticking out on the underside of the nipples. So I retraced all of my steps to ordering the 290 spokes. Bikehubstore says PCD for hub is 30 and FD is 40. Spoke caculator asked for FD and I input 40. But I think it really wanted PCD. Had I inputted 30 instead of 40, it would have suggested 292 spokes...which would alleviate the extra threads sticking out and have given me more leaway for tensioning. Hmmmm, rebuild it with the right spokes or ride it the way it is? Probably will go for perfection.

[Peter P.]

How does one know, using the meter, the correct tension for the finished wheel. It is now true and round-ish, and the tension meter says 20 or 89kgf all the way around on all the spokes. They feel pretty damn, maybe too damn tight. But how do you know what's right?

While I have a tension meter, I don't use it to tell me whether the tension is high enough. I use it to measure the variations of spoke tension among the spokes, and correct it if I choose.

My litmus test for proper tension is occurring all the time while I'm truing the wheel. The fingers of my free hand are always squeezing the spoke I'm trying to turn with the other hand. The free-hand fingers give me feedback on whether the spoke is twisting while I'm tightening them. At some point in the tensioning process, I can feel the majority of the spokes twisting and beginning to creak as they are being tightened. That's too tight for me. I'll back off on the tension until I can feel them twisting but not creaking, and my finger pressure on the spokes is aiding in preventing further spoke twist. The difference between too high and my optimal tension is roughly 3/4 turn of the spokes.

[oldpotatoe]

built first wheel, a front one with A23 28 hole rim, Sapim Race spokes, bikehubstore front hub, 2 cross pattern. I have a truing stand and Park Tension Meter. Spokes measure at 1.8 on the spoke checker thingy.

How does one know, using the meter, the correct tension for the finished wheel. It is now true and round-ish, and the tension meter says 20 or 89kgf all the way around on all the spokes. They feel pretty damn, maybe too damn tight. But how do you know what's right?

I shoot for about 100-110 kgf for every wheel I build. I always use a spoke tension meter, always. Nobody's hand can tell tension. I also lube well, nipp to rim, use boiled linseed oil between spoke and nipple. Also use the tighten, back off some to prevent spoke windup. Bang on floor to take the rest of them out. Wheel should not 'ping' when first ridden. If it does, some windup out, reducing tension there. Wheels also don't 'break in' or some such nonsense. A well built wheel spoke tension doesn't change when ridden unless ya smack something.

[chromopromo]

I shoot for about 100-110 kgf for every wheel I build. Wheel should not 'ping' when first ridden. If it does, some windup out, reducing tension there.

I just build my first wheel -- a front wheel. Definitely had some 'pings' on my first ride and might have too much tension. Should I go back now and release some tension? I think I am up around 120 kgf on a Hed C2 rim. I never did find the tension specs for this rim on the HED website or anywhere else.

[tmf]

If you have a Park TM-1 Tension Meter, check out this spoke tension online tool that I just found on the Park site:

Park Wheel Tension Balance web app (http://www.parktool.com/wtb)

[oldpotatoe]

I just build my first wheel -- a front wheel. Definitely had some 'pings' on my first ride and might have too much tension. Should I go back now and release some tension? I think I am up around 120 kgf on a Hed C2 rim. I never did find the tension specs for this rim on the HED website or anywhere else.

Probably not but w/o a tension meter, cannot tell. 120kgf is not too high.

BUT is the wheel true after the first ride? The real 'test' of build quality, staying true.

[dgauthier]

(. . .)How does one know, using the meter, the correct tension for the finished wheel.(. . .)

The correct tension is always specified by the rim manufacturer. Velocity provides this information on their web site:

http://www.velocityusa.com/tech/rims/

"We recommend building to spoke tension between 110kgf and 130kgf."

(Oops! Missed Kramnnim's post of same -- please pardon the repetition.)

[dan682]

not only do my spokes "seem" tight, there are 2 or 3 threads still sticking out on the underside of the nipples. So I retraced all of my steps to ordering the 290 spokes. Bikehubstore says PCD for hub is 30 and FD is 40. Spoke caculator asked for FD and I input 40. But I think it really wanted PCD. Had I inputted 30 instead of 40, it would have suggested 292 spokes...which would alleviate the extra threads sticking out and have given me more leaway for tensioning. Hmmmm, rebuild it with the right spokes or ride it the way it is? Probably will go for perfection.

Are you using the SL85W hub? I built this exact same wheel, A23 28h 2x, and ran into the same problem. The BHS site has the flange diameter listed as 39.5, but it's actually 30.6. I had to reorder the spokes and ended up using 293mm. I wouldn't use the wheel with the spokes being that short.

[R3awak3n]

did you measure the ERD yourself?
also how did you measure it?

I had some spokes stick out the other way (come out from the top of the nipple), re ordered the spokes after I re measured the ERD (I had measured it wrong and it was only a couple mm more but that will change the size of the spokes needed). Ordered new spokes and now its fine, been riding on the wheel for 2 weeks now, non pinging when I got on it the first time and maintaining true.

how much thread can you see?

[eddief]

I think I need to take a break from this project, get some perespective, and come back to it another day.
Are you using the SL85W hub? I built this exact same wheel, A23 28h 2x, and ran into the same problem. The BHS site has the flange diameter listed as 39.5, but it's actually 30.6. I had to reorder the spokes and ended up using 293mm. I wouldn't use the wheel with the spokes being that short.

[eddief]

This is what I finally figured out and sent this note to BHS:


I think the measurements listed with your hubs when used with the spoke calculator you link to on your site makes things very confusing.

You list flange diameter with each of your hubs. The spoke calculator asks for the flange diameter. But when you input your flange diameter number it results in recommending the incorrect spoke lengths. Granted, you also list PCD with your hubs, but that is not the dimension asked for by the calculator.

I think it would be advisable, especially for the many new builders who buy stuff from you for you to be more clear about what number from your site should be used in the calculator.

I built my first wheel based on inputting FD into the spoke calculator and my wheel resulted in threads showing on the underside of the nipple and spokes tensioned too high.

I have now ordered the correct size spokes and will build the wheel again at a cost of an additional $28.

You ought to clarify this for other folks buying your parts and using your recommended spoke calc.

Thanks,
Eddie Berkeley, CA

[eddief]

Even though he is crazy busy opening a new store, Brandon the owner, could see my point of view and we worked out a fine compromise and new, correct spokes are in the mail. I have heard great things about his customer service. I remain a fan.

[R3awak3n]

Yep great customer service.

[Shoeman]

Brandon is the Best at Customer Service!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mark McM]

I just build my first wheel -- a front wheel. Definitely had some 'pings' on my first ride and might have too much tension. Should I go back now and release some tension? I think I am up around 120 kgf on a Hed C2 rim. I never did find the tension specs for this rim on the HED website or anywhere else.

'Pings' during first use of a newly built (or trued) wheel aren't due to excessive tension, they are due to the unwinding of spoke that had residual twist.

At high tension, there can be a lot of friction on the spoke threads. While that's generally a good thing (since this is what keeps nipples from unscrewing in use), it adds a bit of extra complexity while truing. When you turn the nipples to adjusting them, the spoke sticking on the nipple threads will initially result in the spoke twisting up, and then only when the spoke twisting torsion exceeds the friction torsion will the nipples actually turn on the threads. But when you stop turning the nipple, the spoke can remain in its twisted state.

When you ride the wheel, the rider's weight will cause the spokes to momentarily lose some tension as they pass through the bottom of the wheel as the wheel rotates. This momentary drop in tension will cause a momentary decrease in the thread friction, allowing the spoke to untwist. This rapid release of twist can result in "pinging" sounds from the spokes, which can occur during the first few rotations of the wheel until all the spokes have untwisted. Unfortunately, the other effect of the spokes untwisting is that they can unscrew a bit in their nipples, causing the wheel to go out of true.

To prevent this, spoke wind up should be eliminated while building. The usual technique is that when the nipples are turned to adjust tension, after turning them the desired amount they should be turned back a fraction of a turn to untwist the spokes. How much to turn them back? This comes with experience. With bladed spokes, the spoke twist is easily visible, and you simply turn them back until the spoke is straight again. It's a bit tougher with round spokes. I personally feel the spoke with my fingers as I turn the nipple, and feel them initially twist, and then feel the point where the nipple starts actually turning on the threads, and then turn them back the same amount after adjustment. A beginning wheel builder may want to attach pieces of tape to the spokes to act as flags to visually see the spoke twist, to learn how much they twist.

Note: The bigger the spoke butt differential (the difference in diameter between the middle and ends of the spokes), the more they will twist when turning the nipples. This is why super-butted spokes (like DT Revolutions) are more difficult to build with.

As far as the spoke tension: How many spokes on this wheel? As others have mentioned, the fewer the spokes, the more tension is needed. The HED C2 rim is a fairly beefy rim to start with, so if you are using 28 or fewer spokes, 120 kgf is probably just fine.