Who is to blame more, Sagan or the team manager?

[Rebel_Biker]

Sagan should have at least one stage win. Is it him, or the strategy of the manager?

It is obvious that other team members will not work with him in a break because he will out sprint them at the end. But the teams in the pack don't care to close gaps unless they have a sprinter who can compete with Sagan.

Strategy is so difficult for a marked rider like Sagan.

[pbarry]

From 5k miles away, that was a DS call.

[ultraman6970]

IMO he is not being marked that much, Sagan is going for the green jersey, and you can get enough points to win that one just sprinting the intermediate sprints and not even wining a stage at all. The problem is that this tour in particular has been tough as hell for everybody, GC people going for the wins, flat stages with up and downs the whole day, a lot of rain.. etc... Add that the fact that Sagan doesnt use a lead out train and that the German is way too strong and then you end up with no wins at all.

IMO the perfect stage for him was the 1st one that nibali won, he did not want to go and catch him... so for being nice now he is empty and big chance he won't win a single stage but intermediate sprints this year.

You can tell he is frustrated, even canondale's sprinter is not disputing crap either... this tour is being way to hard for everybody, probably the worse that a team (that is not in the GCC race) can do right now is to plan stages, because in a momment somebody ran away and win solo, and pretty much cannondale has no team even for that IMO.

[Rebel_Biker]

IMO he is not being marked that much, Sagan is going for the green jersey, and you can get enough points to win that one just sprinting the intermediate sprints and not even wining a stage at all. The problem is that this tour in particular has been tough as hell for everybody, GC people going for the wins, flat stages with up and downs the whole day, a lot of rain.. etc... Add that the fact that Sagan doesnt use a lead out train and that the German is way too strong and then you end up with no wins at all.

IMO the perfect stage for him was the 1st one that nibali won, he did not want to go and catch him... so for being nice now he is empty and big chance he won't win a single stage but intermediate sprints this year.

You can tell he is frustrated, even canondale's sprinter is not disputing crap either... this tour is being way to hard for everybody, probably the worse that a team (that is not in the GCC race) can do right now is to plan stages, because in a momment somebody ran away and win solo, and pretty much cannondale has no team even for that IMO.

I agree. I put stage wins ahead of the green jersey. He should run away with the green jersey as the other contenders cannot climb at all. So, Sagan should take all the intermediate points on and sprint that follows a climb 3 category or more.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

He'd have better luck at the finish line if he weren't contesting intermediate sprints. Choices to make and matches to burn.


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[spartanKid]

From 5k miles away, that was a DS call.


5,000 miles away? So he was riding in New York for the TdF stage? :p

[Rebel_Biker]

From 5k miles away, that was a DS call.

I guess I deserve that.

I should have stated that it is my opinion. Obviously, this is "Monday morning quarterbacking." I cannot know all the details as to why a move does not work and how a rider is feeling, and the strategy employed by him and others. I am a fan and root for Sagan and as a fan, I root for him to win stages and spring classics. He is not a pure sprinter and does not posses the same ability that FC does. So, it is probably unfair for me to expect him to ride like that. Obviously it is a great accomplishment to win, and defend the green jersey and I should not discount that.

[tiretrax]

He'd have better luck at the finish line if he weren't contesting intermediate sprints. Choices to make and matches to burn.


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It looked like that was his plan yesterday - he let Griepel and Kittel take the top spots in his group. His failure to mark Gallopin was surprising, especially after he flew down the last descent to catch him.

[harlond]

I blame the guys who beat him.

[Md3000]

Man, Sagan.. Im starting to think his power is great but his strategy is just weak? going for every single point sprint in the first ten days doesnt get him much goodwill in the peloton, no one wants to break away with him or help him. Why does he need a 150 point lead for Green, why not give some points to others and hide yourself a bit more? Im sure people are annoyed with him.

Then in the Gallopin win and in the Nibali win of stage 2, he's left on his own when the winner solos away from the group, and no one wants to ride Sagan to the finish. And then the other races where he was close he seems to jump too late?

Im no racer hence the many question marks above :)

[Lewis Moon]

I get the impression that Sagan is trying desperately to become a more complete, well rounded rider. The dividends may not be huge today, but he could turn our to be a smoking classics rider. He's young. Maturity will bring greater staying power and better tactics.
He has a sprint that's just shy of Kittel et al, the bike handling prowess of a CXer, can put out scads of watts, climb a bit...add to that some TT ability and he'll be hard to beat. This from a guy who didn't really like him before this year.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Sean Kelly has an insightful piece about the Catch 22 that Sagan is in wearing the green jersey.
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/07/sean-kelly-tour-de-france-blog-i-know-exactly-how-sagan-feels/

[MattTuck]

I am no fan of Peter Sagan, but this shows how hard it is when you're a marked man. Makes me appreciate the wins of Cancellara and Boonen in the classics when they were favorites.

I'm honestly not sure if his brightest days are ahead of him or behind him. Yeah, he can dominate at the secondary races.... but to win on the biggest stages in cycling, he's been coming up short.

[c-record]

Maybe the other racers don't like his finish line wheelies?

[Lewis Moon]

I am no fan of Peter Sagan, but this shows how hard it is when you're a marked man. Makes me appreciate the wins of Cancellara and Boonen in the classics when they were favorites.

I'm honestly not sure if his brightest days are ahead of him or behind him. Yeah, he can dominate at the secondary races.... but to win on the biggest stages in cycling, he's been coming up short.

The thing is: he has the raw tallest and the youth to be a great rider. What he does with those gifts is up to him. The problem with getting seated at the "big kids table" too early is that you are expected to perform at the expense of further development. Not saying he hasn't been a bit of a preening d!ck...he has in spades. I personally sent a message to Cannondale after "the pinch". I'm saying he needs some room to mature and he needs to be allowed the luxury of NOT carrying an entire team on his shoulders.
Also remember, part of the reason he is there is to keep C-dale in the limelight and sell bikes. Wheelies are part of keeping in the public eye.

[c-record]

Kinda like the pinch?

[54ny77]

I blame Al Gore.

[Lewis Moon]

Kinda like the pinch?

That's part of being a little a__hole...which adolescents tend to be.

(Hint: the APA has broadened the definition of Adolescent...)

[chengher87]

It's a mixture. Remember, he's transitioning over to classics riding, so he isn't doing much sprint intervals during training camps and such like the classic sprinters anymore. I mean, he is getting beaten by people he was killing just a few years ago (Farrar, Degenkolb, Kristoff, Demare, Bouhanni, even his own teammate Viviani). His top speed is down, from the flattest of stages to hilly finishes. In the elite, even a quarter of a mph means no victory.

He's also been in a few crashes (not his fault), but riding off the front and then having some indecision about whether to wait for the bunch to catch up or try to go it alone (indeterminant, don't know if it's his or DS call) isn't helping.

But what I am seeing lately is that Sagan is choosing the wrong wheel to stay behind, putting him out of position when the winner eventually kicks, he's too far behind.. This is problematic because three stages were tailor made for him (hilly enough to eliminate the elite sprinters) and he was at the front for all three of them and couldn't seal the deal.

[firerescuefin]

He is already a GREAT rider. He has not only been eating at the Big Boy table, he has taken more than his share.

He is pressing at this tour for a win. As Matt mentioned, he is now the marked man. That being said:

"Sagan is the first cyclist after Charles Pélissier in 1930 to score seven top-5 finishes in the first seven stages of the Tour de France.....As of 17 July 2014, Sagan has ridden 54 stages of the Tour de France in total, of which 48 were in the green jersey. If opening stages, where no rider is able to hold any jersey, are excluded, Sagan has spent 48 out of 51 stages in the green jersey. He has finished 24 times in the top 5."

"Sagan is considered one of cycling's most promising young talents, having earned many prestigious victories in his early twenties.[4] Supporting this view are victories in: two Paris–Nice stages, three Tirreno–Adriatico stages, one in the Tour de Romandie, two and the overall classification in the Tour de Pologne, a record eleven in the Tour of California,[5] eight in the Tour de Suisse as well as the overall classification and three stages of the Giro di Sardegna. He has won seven stages in Grand Tours: three in the Vuelta a España and four in the Tour de France. He was also the winner of the points classification in the Tour de France, in 2012 and 2013; as a result, Sagan became the second rider to win the classification in his first two attempts, after Freddy Maertens."


......all of this at 24 years of age. I think he'll be Ok.

[Fatty]

Maybe the other racers don't like his finish line wheelies?
I'm thinking a lot of people don't like his finish line wheelies.
And, the race is not over yet, he still may claim a stage or two.

[FlashUNC]

Let's see him win a Monument before we start getting too excited.

Boonen won Flanders, Roubaix and the Worlds all in the same season when he was 25 years old. So its not like youth is an excuse for not meeting expectations.

Sagan had a crappy Spring campaign even though he was the favorite going into a lot of races.

[Lewis Moon]

He is already a GREAT rider. He has not only been eating at the Big Boy table, he has taken more than his share.

He is pressing at this tour for a win. As Matt mentioned, he is now the marked man. That being said:

"Sagan is the first cyclist after Charles Pélissier in 1930 to score seven top-5 finishes in the first seven stages of the Tour de France.....As of 17 July 2014, Sagan has ridden 54 stages of the Tour de France in total, of which 48 were in the green jersey. If opening stages, where no rider is able to hold any jersey, are excluded, Sagan has spent 48 out of 51 stages in the green jersey. He has finished 24 times in the top 5."

"Sagan is considered one of cycling's most promising young talents, having earned many prestigious victories in his early twenties.[4] Supporting this view are victories in: two Paris–Nice stages, three Tirreno–Adriatico stages, one in the Tour de Romandie, two and the overall classification in the Tour de Pologne, a record eleven in the Tour of California,[5] eight in the Tour de Suisse as well as the overall classification and three stages of the Giro di Sardegna. He has won seven stages in Grand Tours: three in the Vuelta a España and four in the Tour de France. He was also the winner of the points classification in the Tour de France, in 2012 and 2013; as a result, Sagan became the second rider to win the classification in his first two attempts, after Freddy Maertens."


......all of this at 24 years of age. I think he'll be Ok.

Of course you're correct...I'm just hoping early success doesn't stunt his growth.

[crankles]

I'm thinking a lot of people don't like his finish line wheelies.
And, the race is not over yet, he still may claim a stage or two.

I like the wheelies....almost as much as I liked Cipollini and his skin suits. The pro ranks need characters

[redir]

It is obvious that other team members will not work with him in a break because he will out sprint them at the end.

I think you mean, 'other team's members.'

---

Gallopin won because he made a split second decision and a brilliant move and had the fortitude to pull it off. That's my kind of racer right there. It has a lot to do with luck too, bike racing has a lot to do with luck. But a good bike racer, of course has to have the strength, is able to control a situation so that their odds at getting any one given moment of luck is better than the next guy.

Sagan had a train today that formed a bit too early at 5km out I think. It was a good train if each guy in front could pull off an epic 1km lead out but after that last left hand corner the field mopped up a bit and the trains got juggled and Sagan had some bad luck and was able to recover form it seconds too late.

It's what makes this the greatest sport there is :)

[firerescuefin]

Of course you're correct...I'm just hoping early success doesn't stunt his growth.

I don't think it will. I think most of what he has accomplished has come relatively easily for him...and he's learning the definition of frustration. As Flash mentioned, those monuments don't come easy, and I think he'd tell you he's surprised that he hasn't won one yet. He's been relatively uninjured and so as far as miles on the tires, I think he's doing better than most (think Phinney) and has time to develop that engine.

I think he'll re-dedicate himself and work harder. He won't be the first person that's had to reassess and change gears.

[Rebel_Biker]

I think you mean, 'other team's members.'

---

Gallopin won because he made a split second decision and a brilliant move and had the fortitude to pull it off. That's my kind of racer right there. It has a lot to do with luck too, bike racing has a lot to do with luck. But a good bike racer, of course has to have the strength, is able to control a situation so that their odds at getting any one given moment of luck is better than the next guy.

Sagan had a train today that formed a bit too early at 5km out I think. It was a good train if each guy in front could pull off an epic 1km lead out but after that last left hand corner the field mopped up a bit and the trains got juggled and Sagan had some bad luck and was able to recover form it seconds too late.

It's what makes this the greatest sport there is :)

correct
that is exactly what I meant - should have written it more clearly

I agree with the Gallopin win. I am really rooting for Sagan to have that same type of instinct to make a successful move. I give him a ton of credit for trying on many different occasions. Today was another example of a great effort and good execution that just came up a bit short. He has to be frustrated with so many 2nd place finishes.

[Rebel_Biker]

I blame the guys who beat him.

Well said.

[denapista]

I blame Sagan. He goes too late. Look at all of the sprint finishes and he goes way too late with no chance when the line approaches. Instead of following a wheel in the bunch sprint of guys he's clearly better than, he should go a little earlier and lead the sprint. He doesn't have the pure sprinter snap to fly by guys. Blame himself.

[45K10]

I'm a big Sagan fan. This is why I hope he goes to Omega Pharma next year. Say what you will about Lefevere but he knows how to put squads together and I think Sagan would get some big classics wins if it happened.

But he will probably end up at Tinkoff, oh well.

[Rebel_Biker]

I blame Sagan. He goes too late. Look at all of the sprint finishes and he goes way too late with no chance when the line approaches. Instead of following a wheel in the bunch sprint of guys he's clearly better than, he should go a little earlier and lead the sprint. He doesn't have the pure sprinter snap to fly by guys. Blame himself.

He definitely went a little too late on stage 8 where he has the higher speed than Trentin at the end.

He was fighting hard today to get into the position to sprint at the end. He needed a bit more help by his team to leave him in a little better position to start his sprint. Although, it looked like he had nothing left at the end and Kristoff looked to have more speed at the end.

[gavingould]

I hope he goes to Omega Pharma next year.

forgive me here, but what in the hell would Sagan give OPQS that they don't already have?

they're already stacked for Classics and 1-day races already with Boonen, Terpstra, Kwiatkowski (who handily beat Sagan at Strade Bianchi and is being groomed for GC contender status)...
Sprint finishes? they have this guy named Cavendish.

if Sagan were a GC threat for 7-day or longer stage races (and maybe he could be some day) then you'd have something!

[bikinchris]

Frankly, IMO Sagan is about the 10th fastest sprinter in the tour. Way faster than most f the riders who would normally be in a breakaway, but not fast enough to beat the best pure sprinters in a field print. He did very well to get the 5th place finishes he got.

He will run away with the green jersey because none of the top sprinters are versatile enough to get into breaks or make it past moderate climbs. I don't see what the problem is.
If he was a horse, he would be a good Arabian, where the true sprinters would be a quarter horse.

[MrCannonCam]

I like the wheelies....almost as much as I liked Cipollini and his skin suits. The pro ranks need characters

I agree, the pro ranks need characters. Maybe some people think the whole butt pinch thing was too much but he's having fun. I seriously doubt he cares what people like us on the cycling forums think of it, he's doing him and a ton of people love it. He's also probably making bank in the process so why not smile and enjoy it? He hasn't been able to match the pure sprinters this year because he isn't one. He's tried a few moves in the last few k of a few stages that weren't bad moves he was just seriously marked and may have been a little too anxious and did too much work and in turn let guys like Nibali on stage 2 and recently Gallopin get away. Props to those guys though for reading the race like they did. Today Sagan didn't ride the right wheels and paid for it, Kristoff rode a perfect sprint and had the gas to hold him off

[45K10]

forgive me here, but what in the hell would Sagan give OPQS that they don't already!


Im not saying he would be a good fit but he would definitely get his major classics win.

IMO Tepstra is a one show pony, just like Van Summeren a few years back. Nobody is going to let him roll off the front anymore for a big classics win.

Now just picture it, Boonen, Stybar & Sagan all lined up for OPQS at the Ronde & Roubaix next spring, that would awesome. Not saying it would happen but I think would be fun to watch.


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[rustychisel]

Don't like the punk (there, I've said it).

But I'm an equal opportunity hater: I was hoping "just anyone to win but him".

[mtechnica]

I don't think winning is as easy for Sagan as he makes it look, especially when he's coming into the sprint after some hills. He's trying it just hasn't panned out for him, also in a pure sprint against pure sprinters he can be beat as we've seen. I think Sagan needs Degenkolb on his team lol.

[harryblack]

This is especially good question today. I haven't RE-watched it but on live feed this morn, it was interesting to see Cannondale train leading pack...

... but from pretty far out, 3-4 KM, maybe a bit more?

Didn't do any good in a semi-technical finish like today + as others have noted, Sagan is NOT a 'pure' sprinter though that does highlight fact his tactics-- and teammates? though it's unclear there was any team was 'better' today,-- could probably stand improvement or at least evolution as he matures.

[Bstone]

I thought Sagan had already been pretty much confirmed at Tinkoff next year along with the Cannondale bike deal.

[T.J.]

Man some of you guys are tough. You hear all this bitching about the "robots" on Sky and here you have a true character that animates races and that isn't good enough either?

[bikinchris]

Apparently, NO ONE is good enough. It's the internet, blow it off.

[rustychisel]

Man some of you guys are tough. You hear all this bitching about the "robots" on Sky and here you have a true character that animates races and that isn't good enough either?

Fair enough, but to answer directly, I like showmen more than I like punks.

[T.J.]

Fair enough, but to answer directly, I like showmen more than I like punks.

Honest question, not trolling ( pinky swear), what makes him a punk in your eyes?

[rustychisel]

Perception (I'll admit that) backed by what he does.

I don't think his actions are classy, or mature, I think he looks petulant when he doesn't win or things don't go his way. I don't think he's a team man, from what I observe, and I don't think he has any respect for the lore.

Gallopin's win, on the other hand, was just workmanlike classy.

[pinoymamba]

Honest question, not trolling ( pinky swear), what makes him a punk in your eyes?

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/3/31/1364751047824/Peter-Sagan-008.jpg

[pinoymamba]

Perception (I'll admit that) backed by what he does.

I don't think his actions are classy, or mature, I think he looks petulant when he doesn't win or things don't go his way. I don't think he's a team man, from what I observe, and I don't think he has any respect for the lore.

Gallopin's win, on the other hand, was just workmanlike classy.



sort of off track but i read this is on another forum i frequent. i don't know how legitimate the information is though...

"It's actually against the rules to go back. They could have pulled over and waited but according to a couple of people I know at Garmin, Talansky is a complete dick and no one likes him."

i feel like sagan seconds guesses himself. he has a sprinters mentality "shelter, don't do work, wait wait wait, i don't want to be in the wind...".

yes this has cost him the top podium.

when was the last time his team lead him out for the final sprint? his team is pretty weak if they are banking on him to take these "sprint" stages.

[firerescuefin]

Talansky is a complete dick and no one likes him."

Talansky is their teammate. If they were told to wait, they would have waited. They were burying themselves the first week for him. FWIW, I actually know two folks that work within the team, one very well. I have never heard what is written above.

[harryblack]

Personalities etc aside...

does anyone have a link to the last five minutes of today's stage 12? I know it's out there but can't seem to find it easily.

following Sagan & his teammates run in those last KM would be most intstructive to this discussion

[pinoymamba]

Personalities etc aside...

does anyone have a link to the last five minutes of today's stage 12? I know it's out there but can't seem to find it easily.

following Sagan & his teammates run in those last KM would be most intstructive to this discussion

http://www.steephill.tv/tour-de-france/