Why do people hate Rapha more than Assos?

[FastforaSlowGuy]

I'm going to be sorry for asking this one, but given that a simple Rapha notebook generated 3+ pages in the Classifieds, I gotta ask: why all the hate for Rapha and not for Assos?

This guy (http://assos.com/fileUpload/images/3620.jpg)is just as much an overglamorized marketing ploy as this guy (http://dyzmn8020x6cd.cloudfront.net/sys-master/products/hcc/hd8/8798188044318/MBL01-Merino-Mesh-Base-Layer-247272_AW13_61_3a.jpg_MEDIUM).

We're all nuts. Just sayin.

(Full disclosure: my two favorite bib shorts are my Rapha and my Assos, but I'll never buy those sunglasses, because my wife and all my friends would tease the $#!% out of me.)

[e-RICHIE]

<cut> I gotta ask: why all the hate for Rapha and not for Assos?


Because Assos arrived before the internet atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool::cool::p
:cool::cool::p
:cool::cool::)

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Because Assos arrived before the internet atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool::cool::p
:cool::cool::p
:cool::cool::)

Good guess, but wrong. Assos was founded in 2000, long after Gore invented the internet and only a couple years before Rapha.

[FlashUNC]

http://www.funnymemes.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/1379527512006.jpg

[fiamme red]

Good guess, but wrong. Assos was founded in 2000, long after Gore invented the internet and only a couple years before Rapha.I think Assos was founded in 1975 or 1976.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

I think Assos was founded in 1975 or 1976.

deleted because I looked up the wrong assos. I think you're right.

[e-RICHIE]

Good guess, but wrong. Assos was founded in 2000, long after Gore invented the internet and only a couple years before Rapha.

We wore Assos in the mid 80s I am pretty sure.
It replaced Descente as the cool go-to duds.

ps

arrange disorder

;););)
:p:p:p
:):):cool:

[fiamme red]

deleted because I looked up the wrong assos. I think you're right.http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Switzerland/Assos_main.htm

"Assos was founded in the 1970s by Toni Maier, best known for creating the first Lycra cycling short. In Ticino, along the Swiss-Italian border, Assos also produced some avant garde bicycle components. They continue the cycle clothing, but the components are no longer offered."

[e-RICHIE]

And PS atmo it's hard to hate in analog.
The process takes way too long.

[eippo1]

Good guess, but wrong. Assos was founded in 2000, long after Gore invented the internet and only a couple years before Rapha.

Athena has been hanging around Assos for centuries:
http://www.goddess-athena.org/Museum/Temples/Assos/

also:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/inside-assos-headquarters-history-and-ticino-showroom

[FastforaSlowGuy]

We wore Assos in the mid 80s I am pretty sure.
It replaced Descente as the cool go-to duds.

ps

arrange disorder

;););)
:p:p:p
:):):cool:

Yep, 1976. There's another company with the same name founded in 2000.

Still, lots of marketing hype to make fun of there. Maybe if Rapha used half naked women more....

[eippo1]

Yep, 1976. There's another company with the same name founded in 2000.

Still, lots of marketing hype to make fun of there. Maybe if Rapha used half naked women more....

But nobody want to see naked elitists, hmmm, but then how do you explain Paris Hilton? Nevermind, I think you're onto something. :eek:

[avalonracing]

I'm waiting for Charles from Pez to chime in. I like his take on Rapha V. Assos.

[christian]

Assos invented the lycra cycling short. When it comes to credibility in cyclewear, I'm not sure how you beat that. They're sort of a Gianni-come-long-time-ago and they continue to innovate with advanced cycling gear.

And for me, the stuff I've bought from Assos actually works. Like jerseys that wick and stuff like that.

[fiamme red]

I think that Assos manufactures their clothes mainly, if not entirely, in their own factories in Europe (Switzerland, Slovenia, Greece and Bulgaria). Rapha, for the most part, subcontracts out to factories in China.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

And for me, the stuff I've bought from Assos actually works. Like jerseys that wick and stuff like that.

But doesn't this quickly devolve into some pretty first-world arguments, if we are talking about whether Assos's $400 bibs wick better than Rapha's $250 bibs? I'd guess PI's $69 bibs also wick better than wool from 1968. And just like shoes, gloves and bike geometry, the Assos fit and function will work better for some people than Rapha (and vice versa).

All that said, I'd probably agree that Rapha isn't the first company I think of when I think of revolutionary apparel, but then I'm not a first adopter, either. So "comfortable, stylish and functional" for me don't necessarily equate to "next generation design and technology." But I get what you're saying: someone who expects innovation at that price point might be disappointed.

[djdj]

Assos cool. Rapha not (unless you are >50).:hello:

[christian]

Why do people hate True Religion more than Levis? True religion are way fancier!

http://www.pickelmoble.com/images/religion/cheap%20true%20religion%20jeans%2077tr.jpg

vs.

http://mistercrew.com/files/2009/10/jcrew_levis_1966_501.jpg

[FastforaSlowGuy]

There is no world in which Assos is akin to Levis. Nope, none. You'd have to bend space and time to make them even close.

[christian]

But doesn't this quickly devolve into some pretty first-world arguments, if we are talking about whether Assos's $400 bibs wick better than Rapha's $250 bibs?Maybe, but I think there are pieces of Assos clothing that substantially outperform their Rapha counterparts (where I've owned both) - winter hats, jerseys, socks, winter jackets. There are also pieces where the difference is negligible - winter tights, baselayers. But Assos has a much higher "hit" rate for me.

Now, I admit, some people like the 30 wool/70 poly jerseys from Rapha, but I find them totally hopeless. In that matter, de gustibus non disputandum est.

[christian]

Ok, True Religion vs. Outlier? But the point was, there's no accounting for taste.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Now, I admit, some people like the 30 wool/70 poly jerseys from Rapha, but I find them totally hopeless. In that matter, de gustibus non disputandum est.

This may be the most sensible thing ever written in any Rapha-related post on this forum or anywhere else.

[54ny77]

if rapha just marketed its clothes without the backstory/lifestyle, would they be as successful as they are now?

while that's the point of marketing, i would venture a guess assos would sell with limited to no advertising based on quality reputation alone. they've been at top of food chain for decades.

[christian]

This may be the most sensible thing ever written in any Rapha-related post on this forum or anywhere else.

The antecedent of the "them" in that sentence was "some people" not "jerseys." See, we can still court controversy! :)

[sandyrs]

Assos cool. Rapha not (unless you are >50).:hello:

Assos is not cool at all.

[benb]

Has the founder of Assos ever gone on the record saying his mission statement was to produce more expensive clothes?

Because that recent interview with the Rapha founder had stated his reason for founding the company was him wanting to spend more money on bike stuff but there wasn't expensive enough stuff on the market.

That says a lot for me.. that and I don't automatically think wool is superior to synthetics.

Assos prices are mostly ridiculous to me too, but I do have 2 pairs of their bibs.. they might not be the perfect bib for me but they are in their 4th season and only just starting to show any wear (and I have basically rode about 5 days a week with only those 2 pairs of shorts), so at $200 their value has been pretty good compared to most of the other brands I've tried (PI, Santini, Castelli, etc..) that cost between $100-200 and fall apart in 1-2 seasons.

My favorite bike clothing company might be Louis Garneau though.. their stuff is reasonably priced and every piece of it I have has lasted forever. I have a jersey of theirs that I paid just under $100 for in regular rotation that I bought in 2001.. it hasn't even faded or frayed at all. (Not sure their more recent stuff is as good though)

[FastforaSlowGuy]

if rapha just marketed its clothes without the backstory/lifestyle, would they be as successful as they are now?

while that's the point of marketing, i would venture a guess assos would sell with limited to no advertising based on quality reputation alone. they've been at top of food chain for decades.

And here's where I start getting confused: is the objection to the marketing, or to the clothes? Because I find Assos's marketing sort of ridiculous (again, that guy in those glasses - not something I'd want to emulate), but I do love my shorts. And whatever I think of Rapha's marketing, I have a few pieces from them that I love.

But I do think that marketing can be a barrier for folks. If I didn't have my Assos bibs before seeing the weird Assos marketing campaign, I might hesitate to buy said bibs. Similarly, I was sorta "meh" about a lot of the Rapha marketing, but I'm pretty "yay" about my super lightweight and pro team jerseys.

[RonW87]

I've always thought it was interesting that riders will argue/discuss what clothing is best but as soon as they start racing with a team they don't have a choice in the matter. In other words, to the extent that what racers wear is cool, neither Assos nor Rapha can be cool.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Verge rocks.

[christian]

I've always thought it was interesting that riders will argue/discuss what clothing is best but as soon as they start racing with a team they don't have a choice in the matter.What do you mean? I picked my team based on the fact that they had Castelli kit. I _only_ race in a Sanremo Speedsuit. A man has to have standards!

[bcroslin]

I'll be honest, the way the Assos stuff is marketed to women is more offensive than the douchey looking swiss guy. I know some of you might not feel the same way but why the sex kitten crap to sell bib shorts to the ladies? At least Rapha treats women like they can ride a bike.

http://assos.com/fileUpload/images/2963.jpg

[johnmdesigner]

For me it's all about fit. The Assos shorts fit well on my chicken legs and the tops fit well on my skinny neck and monkey arms.
I bought a Rapha winter jersey once - I was always having to wrap up my neck with something to keep the cold air out.
I have a pair of Assos shorts that have lasted me 10 years. The last few years they have been relegated to winter indoor training but they still see the washing machine quite a bit. I wash all their clothes in commercial washing machines (I do use a delicate wash bag) and they hold up pretty well.
They have made some mistakes over the years (one year the bib legs were wayyyy too short) but I would say the products have improved in a positive way over the years.
I can't afford their $400 offerings so I am hoping my bibs will last a few more years.

[sandyrs]

I'll be honest, the way the Assos stuff is marketed to women is more offensive than the douchey looking swiss guy. I know some of you might not feel the same way but why the sex kitten crap to sell bib shorts to the ladies? At least Rapha treats women like they can ride a bike.



Agreed. Rapha's women's 100 is a huge step in the right direction relative to other clothing companies' attitude toward women in cycling

[fiamme red]

Agreed. Rapha's women's 100 is a huge step in the right direction relative to other clothing companies' attitude toward women in cyclingRapha didn't even sell any women's clothing the first few years they were in business. They finally realized that they were ignoring a significant market share.

[rwsaunders]

I've never owned a piece of Assos kit that didn't work as promised...I love their cold weather gear.

[shovelhd]

I've always thought it was interesting that riders will argue/discuss what clothing is best but as soon as they start racing with a team they don't have a choice in the matter. In other words, to the extent that what racers wear is cool, neither Assos nor Rapha can be cool.

Rapha sponsors amateur teams.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm waiting for Charles from Pez to chime in. I like his take on Rapha V. Assos.

No post, very disappointed.. If it were about scram, I would have been in the first 5 posts.

Assos seems to Aryan to me, very to the point and conservative, sterile.

Rapha more like a great bike ride that finishes at that cool bar with a patio overlooking a river.

Plus Assos jersey designs are 'odd' and their bibs feel like wearing a diaper(in way too fat).

[Grant McLean]

I'll be honest, the way the Assos stuff is marketed to women is more offensive than the douchey looking swiss guy. I know some of you might not feel the same way but why the sex kitten crap to sell bib shorts to the ladies?

I think the sex kitten crap is their marketing for the guys,
shirtless euro douche dude is perhaps of interest to euro gals.
There are cultural differences from the way North American's do branding.

Most of you know, i own at least two of practically everything Assos has made
in the last 5 years, but their marketing hasn't made me buy anything.
It's about the products, and having new stuff that pushes the "me need that" button.
Assos appeals to me more like equipment than clothing.

On the other hand, Rapha's marketing always appeals to me emotionally,
the black and white, the epic locations, the photography, the quirky British
take on a French sport is very appealing to me as a descendent from the Empire.
But most of the actual gear doesn't do much for me.

[christian]

What Grant said.

I love the Rapha movies. I just don't like the clothes so much.

The Assos advertising is odd. But I would recite epic poems of love to my Fuguhelm winter hat.

But the Rapha movies make me want to ride my bike! (Wearing Assos and Castelli.)

[Louis]

Being an equal-opportunity hater, I avoid them both.

But I enjoy disliking Rapha way, way more than Assos.
There's no fun in hating Assos, but Rapha - they deserve every snarky comment they get.

[texbike]

Personally, I think it's the "Epic-y-ness" of Rapha marketing that annoys the sh** out of people - not the gear itself.

On the other hand, Assos has always seemed like the "real" deal to me and not trying so hard with it's marketing.

That's the difference to me at least...

[Louis]

Personally, I think it's the "Epic-y-ness" of Rapha marketing that annoys the sh** out of people - not the gear itself.

In general this is true, but my dislike of yak leather shoes and African hair goat leather gloves is also based on the gear itself.

Yes, the epic nature of the marketing annoys me to no end, but I can do without yak and goat skin stuff in my kit.

[54ny77]

Well have no fear, here you can buy both Assos AND Rapha for a fraction of the cost!

Sure it's real. Just like the Rolex's on Canal St.

:p

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/1264104

[buddybikes]

Buy De Soto and get real stuff by real people.

[Roadguy]

Im with PEZ on Assos having superior quality as far as what my butt is concerned in shorts. However Raphas rain jackets are pretty dang nice. I have never been a fan of Assos's marketing, especially the women's stuff mostly because I don't know many women they appeal to even if the quality is there. The story behind the male model they use was pretty cool though.

However as far as stories, photographic material, gentlemen ride events, I love what Rapha does for the story of cycling. And I do enjoy that even if that's where all their value as a brand comes from in the eyes of most.

[Grant McLean]

However as far as stories, photographic material, gentlemen ride events, I love what Rapha does for the story of cycling. And I do enjoy that even if that's where all their value as a brand comes from in the eyes of most.

Where Rapha deserves credit is for demonstrating to lot of folks they
don't have to dress in Pro-Team clothing. In the Armstrong era there were
so many non-racers wearing pro kit that it seemed like this was the way
that cyclists had to dress.

Rapha was instrumental in changing this attitude, right idea, right place, right time.

-g

[Louis]

Um, Grant, I didn't need Rapha to tell me that wearing pro-looking team kit was not the only way to ride, and I don't think any of the guys I've ridden with did either.

Let's face it, they're just a different type of cool. There's the pro-look cool and there's the Rapha-look cool. Same thing thing, just different brand of designer jeans. If it's your thing and you like them and they work for you, then knock yourself out, wear them as much as you like.

http://www.denimblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/david-beckham-1.jpg

[brando]

My favorite bike clothing company might be Louis Garneau though.. their stuff is reasonably priced and every piece of it I have has lasted forever. I have a jersey of theirs that I paid just under $100 for in regular rotation that I bought in 2001.. it hasn't even faded or frayed at all. (Not sure their more recent stuff is as good though)

I also really like the Garneau jerseys I have but you're the first person I can remember ever saying the same.

[brockd15]

Perception from someone who's never owned either and spends 0 time shopping either:

Rapha = fashion

Assos = function

Oversimplified, of course, because I'm sure both have both, but that's what it boils down to in my mind.

[tiretrax]

Rapha didn't even sell any women's clothing the first few years they were in business. They finally realized that they were ignoring a significant market share.

At least they jumped in to the deep end and make it a point of emphasis.

I think they real reason haters hate Rapha is they don't offer a cuckoo penthouse in their bib shorts.

I love both, and the marketing of both is appealing to me - Rapha for traditonalism and Assos for technical sophistication. Both make very comfortable bib shorts, and I like Rapha jerseys when the temps are in the 70's and below.

I also own a lot of Castelli gear - they have always seemed like the cool guys and also technically advanced. Their nano fabrics are great for shedding rain, keeping me dry, and not feeling like I'm wearing a plastic bag. Hiring the Grubers to shoot the pictures for their ad campaigns and catalogues was a great call.

BTW, a few years ago, my wife told me that most cyclists looked like idiots wearing team gear and trying to look pro. She prefers my Rapha kit because it's not glaring.

[Grant McLean]

Um, Grant, I didn't need Rapha to tell me that wearing pro-looking team kit was not the only way to ride, and I don't think any of the guys I've ridden with did either.

I wasn't suggesting y'all did. Nice to know you are on the cutting edge.

When I was the buyer for a large multi-location cycling retailer here in
Southern Ontario, we saw a definite shift in sales, the trend less team clothing,
and more black & white and muted colours the style Rapha pioneered.

-g

[Louis]

I wasn't suggesting y'all did. Nice to know you are on the cutting edge.

I try to stay as far away from the cutting edge as I can. :)

[professerr]

***

[Louis]

Rapha for traditonalism

But if they really aren't that old (2004) then IMO it's simply a marketing gimmick.

[Jgrooms]

I don't care about the marketing at all, although Assos' tech specs/product listings are hard to crack. Some sort of Enigma machine required?

However, once you've been in a pair of their bibs you will 'chafe' at wearing anything else. And the cold gear puts me on the road 10-12 days in the winter when before it was trainer or wonder ��� I'm doing outside. Enough said.

I picked up a used lightweight Rapha jersey in white here to see what the fuss is about. Its good. But I guess now I've got to wonder what the combo says to others ;-) ? Not!

[FlashUNC]

Assos has made precisely one thing I've been disappointed in, and that's a pair of winter gloves. Everything else I own from them -- bibs, a winter jacket, a couple jerseys -- are all my go-to bits for any big rides throughout the year.

That being said, the Rapha stuff is a solid second, and their aesthetic can be easier to handle that whatever cutting edge European hallucinogens the Swiss have in their design shop these days.

Its all good stuff.

[mgm777]

We wore Assos in the mid 80s I am pretty sure.
It replaced Descente as the cool go-to duds.

ps

arrange disorder

;););)
:p:p:p
:):):cool:

I remember those days...but I couldn't afford Assos then...stuck with Descente, but I remember the vibe. Now, it's all Assos for me.
I recall seeing the 7-11 team wearing Descente bib shorts validating for us that we were wearing the cool stuff.

[jimoots]

RE: Assos. For a company that makes really, really expensive stuff, their marketing efforts are incredibly clumsy and contrived. Eg:

In the real world, there
are 50 million cyclists,
but only a very few
can join Manga.Yio.
Qualify yourself & join!
In the course of a one’s life, one reaches various levels and
hopefully passes onto the next.
The higher the level, the more difficult it becomes to move up
(please use your imagination):
Level 0 birth
Level 1 party, party
Level 2 sex
Level 3 show time
Level 4 knowledge
Then, the privileged one’s,
move on to
Level 5 wisdom
For normal people, that is the top level of life.
But a selected few cyclists go on to explore the ultimate
dimension of inner-balance: Level 13

The understanding that a “little thing” called riding your bicycle
is the key to personal fulfillment and well-being!
- Living a life of luxury does not require millions.
- It’s not about lifestyle, it’s about health status.
- Details don’t matter anymore.
- A world ruled by concentrated, pure emotions.
- An environment reduced to the essence.
- Communication without talking.
- No interferences, no hold ups; everything tuned to your personal frequency.
- And whatever you do, it just feels perfect.
Manga.Yio – where YOU determine the pace of the ride.
And than it all comes together. Magic the perfect RIDE!
ASSOS welcomes you!

Manga.Yio? With a full stop in between because full stops are sahhhh web2.0.

Fire the dude who thought that was a clever idea! Talk about a way to rapidly cheapen a premium brand with cheap marketing copy.

Personally a lot of the Rapha kit doesn't hit the mark for me. I like the Pro Team kit, and I like their jackets.

Don't own any Assos. Marketing aside, I don't know why... the stuff just doesn't appeal to me and Rapha and a few other local brands are 'good enough'.

[witcombusa]

Where Rapha deserves credit is for demonstrating to lot of folks they
don't have to dress in Pro-Team clothing. In the Armstrong era there were
so many non-racers wearing pro kit that it seemed like this was the way
that cyclists had to dress.

Rapha was instrumental in changing this attitude, right idea, right place, right time.

-g

Um, Grant, I didn't need Rapha to tell me that wearing pro-looking team kit was not the only way to ride, and I don't think any of the guys I've ridden with did either.

Let's face it, they're just a different type of cool. There's the pro-look cool and there's the Rapha-look cool. Same thing thing, just different brand of designer jeans. If it's your thing and you like them and they work for you, then knock yourself out, wear them as much as you like.




I'm with you Louis. Didn't need rapha to tell me it was OK to wear non team kit.

[jlwdm]

It continually amazes me the amount of time some people on this forum waste complaining about Rapha. It makes me wonder if these people spend most of their life complaining about things instead of focusing on the positive. If you don't like Rapha then don't buy Rapha products - end of story.

I am probably too much of a consumer and I care about everything I buy. Cars, bikes, clothes, bike clothes, furniture, watches and on and on. I like things I really like even if they cost more. I hate buying things I don't like even if they are less expensive.

I don't like everything made by any company. I like Assos bibs and like the jersey I have, but do not like most of the Assos jersey designs. They don't make large enough socks for me and the leg warmers were horrible. Also, I like my Assos winter glove system.

I have one pair of Rapha bibs which are fine and two long sleeve jerseys and three short sleeve jerseys which are great. I like the simple designs and tasteful stripes - in most cases. I don't waste my time looking at yak items. I don't care where items are made if they are made well. Made in USA is no guarantee of quality.

Again, focus on the positive.

I just got a call as I was writing this reply from my wife that she has malignant melanoma on her face. This really makes you think about what a waste all the negative Rapha talk is. And what a waste negativity is in general.

Jeff

[AngryScientist]

i dont hate rapha or assos :)

[tiretrax]

It continually amazes me the amount of time some people on this forum waste complaining about Rapha. It makes me wonder if these people spend most of their life complaining about things instead of focusing on the positive. If you don't like Rapha then don't buy Rapha products - end of story.




I just got a call as I was writing this reply from my wife that she has malignant melanoma on her face. This really makes you think about what a waste all the negative Rapha talk is. And what a waste negativity is in general.

Jeff

Really puts things into perspective. Best wishes for her (and you). I'm local if you need anything.

[Ahneida Ride]

WOW ...

6 pages of talk about Rapha ....

You can't pay for that type of advertizing !!!! Really !

Hey .... would people start hating HandleBra ! :banana:

[Ahneida Ride]

I just visited the Rapha store ....
I kinda like their pink gloves .... something about that Rapha color
I find very appealing.

[choke]

Frankly I think they're both extremely over-priced. The absolute worst set of bibs I've ever owned were labeled Assos. As for Rapha, as others have said, the marketing just reeks of BS and it turns me off.

I guess I'm lucky because I find even the least expensive Castelli or Giordana bibs quite comfortable.

[fuzzalow]

I'm going to be sorry for asking this one, but given that a simple Rapha notebook generated 3+ pages in the Classifieds, I gotta ask: why all the hate for Rapha and not for Assos?

3+ pages of angst over a ridculously overpriced notebook that appeals to poseurs, who the heck would buy something stupid like that?!?! Must be some kinda maroon... ;)

A comment or two, if I may:
Disagree about Rapha setting the stage for the wearing of non-Pro kit. I think there is occupational bias in that view insofar as the suggestion that the industry leads the style trends in cycling. IMO the industry sets their own commercial interests and that what they promote as the new new sometimes coincides with consumer tastes. For example cyclists may not neccesarily wear prokit because they like it, they wear it because there isn't much else the industry offers as otherwise. Until the industry stumbles on a new, new new that will spur sales because they haven't sold it before. Voila, presenting non-proteam looking kit.

During the whole pro kit time, Descent (the original, now defunct Descent) offered solid color jerseys with the dashed stripe epaulet trim. I bought those.

Anybody who has bought and used either Assos, Rapha or both I'd guess cares not a wit about the marketing of either. Because once you use the product it won't matter what anybody tells you, you now have the real world use of the product to decide for yourself. What is so hard about that?

Yes, I have read the counter arguments against these brands many times on this forum. Not that I don't care but that they all boil down to personal preference or, increasingly, a class warfare conniption - which always turns out to be not an argument but a drooling, incoherent & vindictive mess. My goodness me, it's an article of clothing not a call to jihad.

[fiamme red]

My observation is that the pro-Rapha people on the forum spend a lot of time and energy defending the brand against the "haters." This is just a bicycle forum, don't take yourself so seriously. :)

http://dyzmn8020x6cd.cloudfront.net/sys-master/products/h1c/h8f/8798868897822/LPJ01-AW13_Lapelled_Jacket_jakestangel_raphaAW13_55.jpg_ MEDIUM

http://dyzmn8020x6cd.cloudfront.net/sys-master/products/hb8/hcd/8799029493790/URJ02-AW13_City_Rain_Jacket_jakestangel_raphaAW13_18.jpg _MEDIUM

[Grant McLean]

I'm with you Louis. Didn't need rapha to tell me it was OK to wear non team kit.

It's clear from some people's toxic attitude that trying to tell them anything
would be a total waste of time, even if their house is on fire.

-g

[Louis]

I just got a call as I was writing this reply from my wife that she has malignant melanoma on her face. This really makes you think about what a waste all the negative Rapha talk is. And what a waste negativity is in general.

Sorry to hear that Jeff, and all my best for your wife's treatment and recovery.

Regarding the "negative" Rapha talk - as far as I'm concerned it's a game. Yes the marketing over-the-top, and yes I enjoy teasing folks about it, but no, this isn't a serious issue regardless of how you look at it. The cycling equivalent of J. Peterman.

[Rouleur88]

Neither, I vote for a bike.

[gianni]

I hate the elitism that is still too common with roadies -- whether it is Rapha or assos.

FWIW, if one wants to spend $300 on shorts then rock on.

Not for me.

[pdmtong]

I like Rapha
I like Assos
I like tii

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/16/degamyvu.jpg

[christian]

Those wheels are epically bad.

[texbike]

http://dyzmn8020x6cd.cloudfront.net/sys-master/products/hb8/hcd/8799029493790/URJ02-AW13_City_Rain_Jacket_jakestangel_raphaAW13_18.jpg _MEDIUM

Is that Derek Zoolander on a bike??? Maybe he's working on "Blue Carbon"!

[Louis]

Those wheels are epically bad.

Agreed - that Mae West line about too much of a good thing isn't always true.

[texbike]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/16/degamyvu.jpg

I had one of those back in the day. EXACT same color (Colorado). It was a '71 and had 13" gold BBS wheels on it.

One the most enjoyable cars I've ever owned. If Rapha would put one of those in each of their ads, I'd buy the hell out of their stuff! ;)

[CunegoFan]

Just made this. :)

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/BroDeal/never_go_full_rapha.jpg

[texbike]

I just got a call as I was writing this reply from my wife that she has malignant melanoma on her face. This really makes you think about what a waste all the negative Rapha talk is. And what a waste negativity is in general.

Jeff

Awww, crap. Jeff, I'm really sorry to hear the news about your wife and hope that her treatments go well and that she heals quickly.

Best Wishes,

Mike

[Louis]

Just made this. :)

Should the top line have a question mark at the end?

[Lovetoclimb]

Has the founder of Assos ever gone on the record saying his mission statement was to produce more expensive clothes?

Because that recent interview with the Rapha founder had stated his reason for founding the company was him wanting to spend more money on bike stuff but there wasn't expensive enough stuff on the market.


That is not at all what Montram was saying in that interview. In that and past interviews his point is clear in that what he was seeing in bike shops regarding clothing was poorly designed, a bad fit, and just generally not worth his $. How many times have you gone in to a bike shop feeling some obligation to purchase something supporting the business (not including a $10 cap or bidon) and thought the clothing was horrendous? If you answered infrequently or never then BINGO you are not a target market for Rapha. If like me you answered almost all the time, guess what, you have been in a similar position to Simon Montram! Only he chose to innovate and create what is arguably one of the most successful brands in cycling if not sport. I would really like to see a year over year growth chart for the company versus someone like Assos, or any/every cycling company worth a salt. It would speak volumes.

[r_mutt]

"It's better to be talked about than not talked about at all."

- Oscar Wilde

[jimoots]

Manga.Yio.

[ojingoh]

If like me you answered almost all the time, guess what, you have been in a similar position to Simon Montram! Only he chose to innovate and create what is arguably one of the most successful brands in cycling if not sport.
tl;dr Rapha's job is to sell you a lifestyle

I really like some Rapha designs, but I will admit that compared to most of you I am a poseur. Frankly most people are poseurs if:

you wear pro kit and were/are not a pro
you wear pro kit and you don't train like a pro
you wear pro kit and you don't look after yourself like a pro


So I think that unless you're a poseur or a pro, you're a fan. Nothing wrong with being a fan or what the British call a supporter. It's like an avid basketball player buying a Tarheels jersey, or a guy who wears a Seahawks jersey when they watch the games on TV.

The thing about Rapha is they appeal to fans "of cycling." What Rapha sells is the cycling lifestyle, but with a particular marketing message that appeals, as far as I've been able to see, to Anglophone countries. Call out the branding, design, identity, whatever -- it's created to create value for their merch to customers who live in Anglo countries.

Assos does this too, for their (presumed) important EU markets, but they do it in a way that doesn't appeal much to some Anglos (and probably other locales too.) This is apparent when we compare their ad choices and the marketing copy, as pointed out earlier in the thread to great effect!

I have a cool throwbackish jersey from Rapha that 'celebrates' a particular cycing country that has a rich history of cycling. I like it, mostly. It's literally got a little story sewn into the pocket about the stereotypical bike rider from that country-- almost all of their gear does. It's somewhat accurate, but it's a caricature. My point is they are selling me, literally, a piece "of Cycling" meaning that as a resident of a country without much tradition of my own, I likely didn't know this particular cycling caricature, so I'm going to be well-disposed to these kinds of lore, because I too am a fan "of cycling." It comes off as authentic. It's all BS of course, but it makes me feel like I'm buying a little bit "of cycling."

I think Rapha's message works well for Anglo countries and therefore cultures that don't have a sizable cycling tradition. Not always though. I know that as a fan I am much more receptive to, say, a throwback/retro 7-Eleven jersey than I am to the corny Rapha one 'celebrating' Andy H's win in '88. They're both corny actually, but one seems like I'm being told what the story was, another seems to be a reminiscence of what I remember it was.

[ojingoh]

I had one of those back in the day. EXACT same color (Colorado). It was a '71 and had 13" gold BBS wheels on it.

One the most enjoyable cars I've ever owned. If Rapha would put one of those in each of their ads, I'd buy the hell out of their stuff! ;)

Nothing about Rapha will ever be as cool as that car.

[Kirk007]

In some things, you get what you pay for. If you haven't learned that yet you haven't lived long enough or you've never bought really high quality, expensive stuff that lasts forever. I've got some Armani dress shoes pushing 15 years. Resoled yes but the uppers are like new. I've had Zegna suits, slacks, sportcoats etc. wear like iron and be both comfortable and great looking at the same time. They get less use now do to cultural changes - the casual nature of business life in Seattle and nonprofits in general, but they are as functional as twenty years ago.

Yes you can often find good durability and function in less expensive pieces. Wool sweaters etc. if kept safe from moths seem to never die. And of course the converse is true and the cost reward equation may not pencil out - I do shop sales when it comes to Assos and Rapha, rarely (ever) paying full retail price. But I will pay more even on sale than for items from other companies.

But I'll gladly put my assos shorts, and many other pieces, and some Ralpha pieces, not all, some Ibex, some Ice Breaker, etc up against PI and most others, both for long term value and everyday enjoyment in use. When bike clothing feels good, functions well and in your eyes looks good, the likelihood of being in a positive frame of mind, at least for me, increases. And isn't enjoying ourselves when we are riding what it is all about at the end of the day? On a great summer day in Seattle I want to be on my Pegoretti with Assos covering my butt and a nice lightweight Rapha (or similar quality) jersey on my back. No way I'm reaching for the lower end kit that goes under winter tights and.

So why hate Rapha and Assos? We are a hateful, judgmental nation. Hate for anything "different" or that threatens egos and social values. We live in a toxic, hate filled environment reinforced constantly by news and social media. Not surprising that expensive, foreign, life style, leisure attire pushes buttons.

[54ny77]

When you want quality, buy Bivelgagi watches.

https://screen.yahoo.com/bvlgari-065246171.html

[brando]

tl;dr Rapha's job is to sell you a lifestyle

I really like some Rapha designs, but I will admit that compared to most of you I am a poseur. Frankly most people are poseurs if:

you wear pro kit and were/are not a pro
you wear pro kit and you don't train like a pro
you wear pro kit and you don't look after yourself like a pro



I dunno about all that. What are you supposed to wear?

Rapha - douchey, doctor-cyclist
Assos - douchier than thou, skinny lawyer
Club kit - group ride slappy
Charity/fondo ride kit - show off, look at meee!
Strava - virtual show off poseur
Shop kit - nerd
Pro kit - conformist tool
Generic kit - lame, boring rider
Retro - slow know it all
Wacky/illustrated kit - clown riding a bike
Non-cycling, non-pro-sponsor logo - likes (____) (i.e. beer) cycling's ok too

Did I miss any?

[ojingoh]

I dunno about all that. What are you supposed to wear?

Rapha - douchey, doctor-cyclist
Assos - douchier than thou, skinny lawyer
Club kit - group ride slappy
Charity/fondo ride kit - show off, look at meee!
Strava - virtual show off poseur
Shop kit - nerd
Pro kit - conformist tool
Generic kit - lame, boring rider
Retro - slow know it all
Wacky/illustrated kit - clown riding a bike
Non-cycling, non-pro-sponsor logo - likes (____) (i.e. beer) cycling's ok too

Did I miss any?

I think yours is a pretty good taxonomy lol. I know you're joking, but yeah, I've thought those same stereotypes. I'm supposed to though, it's my job to think about brands and customer perception.

Also, I'm not saying being a poseur is a bad thing per se. A poseur can be charitably thought of as a tourist, someone visiting from somewhere else. Negatively, you're a wannabe. So, keeping positive, if you think you look good in that pro gear, go for it. Who GAS what anyone else thinks?

To your point, is all of this mental gymnastics that necessary to interpret when JRA? Of course not.

[holliscx]

I dunno about all that. What are you supposed to wear?

Did I miss any?

Bike forum kit

[witcombusa]

I dunno about all that. What are you supposed to wear?

Rapha - douchey, doctor-cyclist
Assos - douchier than thou, skinny lawyer
Club kit - group ride slappy
Charity/fondo ride kit - show off, look at meee!
Strava - virtual show off poseur
Shop kit - nerd
Pro kit - conformist tool
Generic kit - lame, boring rider
Retro - slow know it all
Wacky/illustrated kit - clown riding a bike
Non-cycling, non-pro-sponsor logo - likes (____) (i.e. beer) cycling's ok too

Did I miss any?

yes, PI

[fuzzalow]

I am neither a fan nor a hater of Rapha. I am quite certain I have worn & owned Assos for longer than anyone else here on this forum - going back to the time of Fignon's second victory in the TdF. (Conrad's NYC carried Assos right from the beginning and SW was good at convincing me to buy clothes I couldn't afford)

Some might have mistaken me as a Rapha-aelite simply because I don't express atavistic hatred towards the brand - for me Rapha is just clothing. If you think it says something about yourself in buying it; wearing it; liking it; hating it; riding in it; posing in it; admiring it; mocking it; etc etc etc. That's OK and that is your choice to make. I couldn't care less about what you decide or what you think about Rapha - it's a free country, brother.

I often quip the line from the film "Boiler Room" given by the character played by Ben Affleck: "Anybody who tells you money is the root of all evil doesn't f##king have any.". IMO there is the exact same thing going on here througout all this angst and in every snitch and groan from every cry baby about Rapha. Poor babies.

[DarrenCT]

I wasn't suggesting y'all did. Nice to know you are on the cutting edge.

When I was the buyer for a large multi-location cycling retailer here in
Southern Ontario, we saw a definite shift in sales, the trend less team clothing,
and more black & white and muted colours the style Rapha pioneered.

-g

Bingo.

If I want to wear a lycra race cut outfit, I'll wear a Zanconato or Sachs jersey that looks good, and is representing someone I know. I'm not wearing some TDF or Mickey Mouse jersey. The jerseys from Verge or similar feel the same as all the Assos stuff and cost much less.

The Rapha classic line is way different which is why it has been so successful. You don't look like a L.A. wannabe, and everything is comfortable. Lots of pockets in the Brevet jersey for cargo, and even a chest pocket for your phone. I have a bunch of stuff being delivered today or tomorrow that I'll report back about.

This is from a few years ago doing 6 Gap.

http://i.imgur.com/9r9hJ12.jpg

[fiamme red]

I dunno about all that. What are you supposed to wear?

Rapha - douchey, doctor-cyclist
Assos - douchier than thou, skinny lawyer
Club kit - group ride slappy
Charity/fondo ride kit - show off, look at meee!
Strava - virtual show off poseur
Shop kit - nerd
Pro kit - conformist tool
Generic kit - lame, boring rider
Retro - slow know it all
Wacky/illustrated kit - clown riding a bike
Non-cycling, non-pro-sponsor logo - likes (____) (i.e. beer) cycling's ok too

Did I miss any?Now that was funny. Thanks for the laugh. :)

[fiamme red]

The Rapha classic line is way different which is why it has been so successful. You don't look like a L.A. wannabe, and everything is comfortable. Lots of pockets in the Brevet jersey for cargo, and even a chest pocket for your phone.Anyone who wears a brevet jersey and doesn't ride brevets is a randonneur poseur. ;)

Seriously, Rapha has been brilliant in using the various cycling trends to market and differentiate their clothing: fixed, cross, city, brevet, race, etc. The "fixed," "cross," and "brevet" jerseys may be almost identical, but the true Rapha fan must have one of each. :rolleyes:

[Louis]

for me Rapha is just clothing.

In that case, their marketing has utterly failed. Don't you want to be a Belgian hard-man? ;)

[benb]

Just quoting the Rapha CEO here, this is the basis for my previous post indicating I feel "raising the average price of cycling clothing" is one of his goals. To me he comes at this from the stand point of a fashion person who believes more expensive things are automatically better and automatically bring the wearer additional status. He sounds like the kind of person who would have wanted to go spend money on stuff even when he didn't need to, because his enjoyment of cycling was wrapped up in buying cycling gear/clothes as opposed to riding. I know there is some nonsense in his quote as well, maybe prices were cheaper in the UK but there were lots of jerseys that cost > $60 in my neck of the woods in 2000. I also don't buy his "no compromise" thing because it sure seems like Rapha as a brand occasionally or frequently puts style above functionality.

To me this is the core of Rapha and why it doesn't work for me. I am semi-OK with "our clothes are more expensive because we put R&D into new fabrics, better fit, etc.. and so our costs are higher." and I'm definitely OK with "We are trying to provide the best gear/garment at the best price." but I'm not cool with "We are trying to make expensive stuff to have prestige/status."

This is not necessarily about Rapha for me but Rapha is very indicative of the trend, Assos probably is too. Cycling is in a "high cost/status/prestige" bubble IMO and it's all a little silly.

But I’d come away not spending any money, stuck with the clothing, accessories, and surroundings of the bike. It was so horrible; the quality was really bad. Which is bad enough, because I got to the point in my life that I wanted good stuff when I ride a bike, I really want stuff that works, that didn’t compromise. So, the quality was bad but it was also pretty horrible to look at. You compromise on performance and quality all at the same time. Back in 2000 or 2001, cycling kit was polyester. It still largely is. But it’s just really cheap polyester. You couldn’t buy a jersey for more than 40 pounds, 60 bucks. That’s what the industry said people would pay, and yet I would regularly go buy a pair of jeans for 200 bucks. I was used to spending money on stuff that I didn’t care about. Yet the thing I cared about the most in the world, my passion, where it is quite hard because you carry all the ���� with you and you’re going on the bike for seven or eight hours in different terrain, you need your stuff to work really well, and I was prepared to pay for it. Not only that, but why can’t you have stuff that looks good? So why should I compromise performance and style; why should I make these sacrifices? It didn’t make sense. So it used to really frustrate the hell out of me.
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/07/news/excess-agony-pantani-interview-rapha-founder_334957#owr6DtjO4QXBa484.99

[Md3000]

I dunno, when I read that quote I come away with totally different conclusions than the ones you make. It doesn't say "I want to raise the average price", nor "expensive is automatically better", nor "it gives u more status", nor "i care more about the stuff than about the riding itself" and obviously the 60 bucks thing is an example, not some scientifically proven fact.

His point was that he likes to buy things of high quality and fashion and doesn't mind paying for it, like how people spend money on a watch that lasts 15 years that also looks amazing, or a 200$ pair of jeans. But at that time in the cycling world he couldn't find things that provided both high quality and fashion. And since he cares much more for cycling than for a pair of 200$ jeans, he saw an opportunity to start a business based on spending patterns and preferences of people just like him. Well, good for him. no one forces anyone to buy Rapha or Assos.

[Md3000]

Cant believe I got lured into defending Rapha on a public forum!!! aaarghhhh

[fuzzalow]

In that case, their marketing has utterly failed. Don't you want to be a Belgian hard-man? ;)

Do I wanna be a Belgium hardman? Heck yeah I do! And if I'd magically get the legs by buying the bibs, I'd be all over it lickety split.

As it turned out, I bought the bibs and didn't get any increase in either my speed or my sense of urbane insouciant cool. Got a decent bib outta the whole deal which wasn't bad. Um, was I supposed to get more outta it than that? Wha'd I miss?

[moose8]

I like rapha because it's comfortable and fits me well without looking all super-techy. The assos stuff often reminds me of those old north face ski suits with a thousand pockets of different colors from the 80s.

I also like that rapha contributes to the cycling community by hosting events at their stores and rides - I went on one at ride studio cafe and they gave out free stuff and were very nice with no attitude.

[benb]

People who buy $200 pairs of jeans aren't even from the same planet as I am. For $200 they would need to be custom made for me based on my measurement.

We'd just have to agree to disagree. But trying to make bike clothes fashionable is a joke IMO anyway. It's still Spandex in the end regardless of what the color scheme is. Non cyclists are still all laughing at us.

[cfox]

Cycling is in a "high cost/status/prestige" bubble IMO and it's all a little silly.

This is very, very true. I've been in a bit of a cocoon with regards to the price of bike stuff...but I've recently stepped back and looked at it from another perspective, and what I see is absurd. My new perspective comes from my son's involvement in a sport that by all accounts should be way more expensive than cycling. Except it's not, at least in comparison to the mid to high end stuff we all like around here. $2500 for a pair of wheels? A $5,000 molded, mass produced bike frame? $300 for a pair of shorts??? It's really gotten out of hand, and I bear full responsibility for contributing to the problem.

In college, my (horse) riding coach fed his own horses sweet feed sold for cattle. He showed me the ingredients/nutrients list on the label; it was identical to equine sweet feed, except it was 1/3 the price because it had a cow on the label instead of a horse. Sort of like $12 for 3 cents of "chain lube."

[christian]

In this scenario, am I a cow?

[Md3000]

People who buy $200 pairs of jeans aren't even from the same planet as I am. For $200 they would need to be custom made for me based on my measurement.

We'd just have to agree to disagree. But trying to make bike clothes fashionable is a joke IMO anyway. It's still Spandex in the end regardless of what the color scheme is. Non cyclists are still all laughing at us.

Yeah these sort of things all matter only if you share the same values/interests. Some people spend half a lifetime getting that Ferrari, others are fine with any car that brings them from A to B

[cfox]

In this scenario, am I a cow?

Yes! ...and I am a lemming

[fiamme red]

Agreed - that Mae West line about too much of a good thing isn't always true.In that case, their marketing has utterly failed. Don't you want to be a Belgian hard-man? ;)Speaking of Mae West, this quote has been attributed to her (although it's apocryphal, in my opinion): "A hard man is good to find." :)

[shovelhd]

In this scenario, am I a cow?

Fatty.

[texbike]

Cycling is in a "high cost/status/prestige" bubble IMO and it's all a little silly.

This is very, very true. I've been in a bit of a cocoon with regards to the price of bike stuff...but I've recently stepped back and looked at it from another perspective, and what I see is absurd. My new perspective comes from my son's involvement in a sport that by all accounts should be way more expensive than cycling. Except it's not, at least in comparison to the mid to high end stuff we all like around here. $2500 for a pair of wheels? A $5,000 molded, mass produced bike frame? $300 for a pair of shorts??? It's really gotten out of hand, and I bear full responsibility for contributing to the problem.

It doesn't have to be. There are plenty of bike and bike accessory manufacturers that produce perfectly usable and reasonably priced gear. I struggled to think of a "mistress" bike to list in Geoff's thread, but couldn't really think of anything new to lust over. At this point, a Black Mountain Cycles road frame coupled with a 6800 group and sensible, factory-built wheels would provide pretty much anything that I would need in a bike. One could be put together for under $2K complete.

As for clothes, there are a ton of lower cost options that are perfectly functional that don't suffer from the same overblown marketing hype. Capo, Nalini, De Marchi, and LG are just a few brands that come to mind.

[cfox]

It doesn't have to be. There are plenty of bike and bike accessory manufacturers that produce perfectly usable and reasonably priced gear. I struggled to think of a "mistress" bike to list in Geoff's thread, but couldn't really think of anything new to lust over. At this point, a Black Mountain Cycles road frame coupled with a 6800 group and sensible, factory-built wheels would provide pretty much anything that I would need in a bike. One could be put together for under $2K complete.

As for clothes, there are a ton of lower cost options that are perfectly functional that don't suffer from the same overblown marketing hype. Capo, Nalini, De Marchi, and LG are just a few brands that come to mind.

agree, that's why I qualified my statement with "mid to high-end stuff." Cycling can be enjoyed on a budget, for sure. But a lot of stuff is just nutty expensive.

[Louis]

Speaking of Mae West, this quote has been attributed to her (although it's apocryphal, in my opinion): "A hard man is good to find." :)

Hmmm, if Rapha decides to broaden their appeal to women I'm sure that line will come in handy...

[EDS]

I dunno about all that. What are you supposed to wear?

Rapha - douchey, doctor-cyclist
Assos - douchier than thou, skinny lawyer
Club kit - group ride slappy
Charity/fondo ride kit - show off, look at meee!
Strava - virtual show off poseur
Shop kit - nerd
Pro kit - conformist tool
Generic kit - lame, boring rider
Retro - slow know it all
Wacky/illustrated kit - clown riding a bike
Non-cycling, non-pro-sponsor logo - likes (____) (i.e. beer) cycling's ok too

Did I miss any?

Amateur team racer kit (may overlap shop and club kit)?

[christian]

Amateur team racer kit (may overlap shop and club kit)?

Yeah, that was my thought too. That's all I wear anymore.

[professerr]

***

[Louis]

The thread's energy is flagging so I'll try to revive it:

As a counter to the OP's question, one might also ask why some cyclists apparently have so much self-worth tied to the Rapha brand that they feel obliged to defend it tooth and nail against even the mildest slights.

[fiamme red]

The thread's energy is flagging so I'll try to revive it:

As a counter to the OP's question, one might also ask why some cyclists apparently have so much self-worth tied to the Rapha brand that they feel obliged to defend it tooth and nail against even the mildest slights.The answer is that, like other luxury brands, Rapha has become a part of some people's identities. People define themselves by the possessions they own. So a perceived attack on their chosen brand is almost an attack on themselves.

[Kirk007]

The thread's energy is flagging so I'll try to revive it:

As a counter to the OP's question, one might also ask why some cyclists apparently have so much self-worth tied to the Rapha brand that they feel obliged to defend it tooth and nail against even the mildest slights.

Ah stirring the pot Louis :)

Personally I don't react to defend Rapha against slights. I tend to respond to comments (no one in particular being singled out here) like "i've never used it but its too damn expensive or the marketing makes me puke therefore the product sucks and anyone who uses it is (a) an idiot for spending that much money or (b) has poor judgment/is a sucker for marketing blah, blah blah."

Well, no, the product, at least most of the pieces I've tried, doesn't suck. And you don't know me so keep your opinions about me to yourself. Too expensive for you fine, don't buy it but don't judge me for decisions I make. That's the part that I find most distasteful both here and increasingly among homo sapiens in general.

I don't really care what you [the generic human that I don't know] thinks, particularly when its a judgment about me or my choices. Unless I'm breaking a law, the world can just shut up and leave me alone. I do care, perhaps hypocritically, and I'm not sure why, about the judgmental behavior.

Anyway if I had to guess my sense is most Rapha defenders are exhibiting a behavior that analogizes to the law of physics that for every action there's an equal opposite reaction.

[e-RICHIE]

The answer is that, like other luxury brands, Rapha has become a part of some people's identities. People define themselves by the possessions they own. So a perceived attack on their chosen brand is almost an attack on themselves.

This ^ plus that everyone's mic is set to the same volume atmo. And that fact is often lost in these threads.
Simon is a smart man who had a good idea at what was the perfect time for it. There's always a segment that
wants us to know that they can live without the Simons of the world. And oddly, the more these types protest,
the brighter the light that shines on the Raphas (and other brands found in the cross-hairs) of the world.

[Kirk007]

People define themselves by the possessions they own. So a perceived attack on their chosen brand is almost an attack on themselves.

Some seem to, certainly but the same generalization can be broadly applied. Is the retrogrouch sticking to down tube shifters and Kucharik wool doing it out of a sense of self identity or out of a rational decision making process. You don't know, for either example.

[fiamme red]

Some seem to, certainly but the same generalization can be broadly applied. Is the retrogrouch sticking to down tube shifters and Kucharik wool doing it out of a sense of self identity or out of a rational decision making process. You don't know, for either example.Well, although I can only speak for myself, I do wear Kucharik and use downtube shifters, but for practical reasons, not fashion.

I started buying Kucharik at a time when they were one of the very few remaining makers of wool cycling clothing. I was happy with the price, quality, and durability, and have continued to buy their stuff. I also like to support American manufacturers, and Kucharik is still made in California, as it has been for decades. Obviously I'm not buying Kucharik for the marketing -- what marketing?

As for downtube shifters, they're cheap, last much longer than brifters, and are not subject to damage from crashes. I do admit that I like the clean, uncluttered look that they give the front of a bike.

[Louis]

As for downtube shifters, they're cheap, last much longer than brifters, and are not subject to damage from crashes. I do admit that I like the clean, uncluttered look that they give the front of a bike.

+1

And for the weight-weeny in all of us, they're lighter.

[Davist]

As stated above, I'm intrigued by the "return to simple days" aspect of Rapha, but it sometimes comes off as nostalgia for a time and place that didn't exist or maybe even "yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices" vibe I get from some of the custom builders. I have some of their stuff, use it and like it, though. Just clothes to me...

[Kirk007]

Well, although I can only speak for myself, I do wear Kucharik and use downtube shifters, but for practical reasons, not fashion.

I started buying Kucharik at a time when they were one of the very few remaining makers of wool cycling clothing. I was happy with the price, quality, and durability, and have continued to buy their stuff. I also like to support American manufacturers, and Kucharik is still made in California, as it has been for decades. Obviously I'm not buying Kucharik for the marketing -- what marketing?

As for downtube shifters, they're cheap, last much longer than brifters, and are not subject to damage from crashes. I do admit that I like the clean, uncluttered look that they give the front of a bike.

All of which makes sense. I'm on year 8 with 2 pair of Assos bibs that I bought on sale, and wearing a softshell jacket from Rapha that I bought the first year they started selling (and in the Pac NW that shell gets a ton of use. So in both cases - Kucharik and DT shifters/Rapha and Assos, our respective decisions have little to do with fashion and a lot to do with value as we perceive it.

[FlashUNC]

We all get wrapped up in this in one form or another from time to time.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[brando]

Amateur team racer kit (may overlap shop and club kit)?

Amateur team kit - local nobody

[Louis]

Hmmm, so what does that make me when I wear a Nashbar or Performance jersey? Less than nobody - perhaps an Untermensch.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

If someone - Rapha, Assos, Nashbar - can invent a sock that will adequately insulate the bottom of my foot in the winter, but not be so damn thick that I need to buy new shoes, I would pay big bucks for that sock. I'm throwing down the gauntlet for our favorite whipping boy brands. (Disclosure: I have not tried the new Fugu socks from Assos. Maybe someone here can tell me if that's the ticket.)

[benb]

If someone - Rapha, Assos, Nashbar - can invent a sock that will adequately insulate the bottom of my foot in the winter, but not be so damn think that I need to buy new shoes, I would pay big bucks for that sock. I'm throwing down the gauntlet for our favorite whipping boy brands. (Disclosure: I have not tried the new Fugu socks from Assos. Maybe someone here can tell me if that's the ticket.)

This.. our booties which fit size 12+ well, keep your feet warm & dry in the winter (say down to 10F), and don't fall apart.

Booties + winter socks are probably the poorest performing cycling gear in my experience.

[Kirk007]

We all get wrapped up in this in one form or another from time to time.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

perfect

[professerr]

***

[e-RICHIE]

The OP and this thread aren�t really about Mottram (who few here know), they are about the brand (who few here don�t). Mottram seems reasonably adept at making money, and only a fringe few would begrudge him that; it is a common enough goal and skill. Why the Rapha branding turns off some cyclists is a different matter and a small curiosity, and that polarization apparently suits Mottram just fine.Well, I don't know that it suits Mottram just fine, but he's not exactly making a mainstream product line for the everyman. Heck I'd wager very few on this thread are the mainstream when it comes to bicycle products. This was once a Serotta-centric board, in principle at least; folks here are more likely the ones that small batch, grass fed, organic components and apparel are targeted at. I doubt folks have as much angst for the brand as they write here. It's cloth. How mad can you get at cloth?! People with an issue for the brand just need a target. If it wasn't Rapha, it would be something else.

[buddybikes]

It'll get stinky like any other outfit during a good ride

[Louis]

How mad can you get at cloth?!

I haven't worn it recently, but somewhere I have a linen shirt hanging in a closet. Very nice in summer, but wrinkles like crazy when washed, and I don't bother to iron stuff. I'm sure there's someone on the Interwebs who could get worked up about the fact that the flax plants that created it were most likely not organic.

Look hard enough, and I'm sure you can find some who disapproves of something, no matter how simple.

(btw, that's not me in the pic below - I haven't worn Ray Bans for ages, and I'm at least 50% sure I couldn't pull off the red trousers look...)

http://linenpage.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/amalfi-sky-blue-linen-shirt.jpeg

[EDS]

Amateur team kit - local nobody

I resemble that remark! :)

[fuzzalow]

You reveal your circle if you really believe that wealth has to do with why many cyclists react negatively to Rapha�s branding. That, and usage.

If you really want to discuss this rather than gripe about my comment as an attempt to cajole me onto my own petard, then please elaborate on what you're saying. I have no reason to be coy about my position but I don't want to be substantive in a response and receive a rash tirade in response. There's nothing interesting in that for me.

What circle do you think I'm in?

[professerr]

***

[e-RICHIE]

Great, so now if you don�t like Rapha�s branding you�re mad, filled with angst, have issues, and are looking for a target. But good news: the cure is a Rapha King of Pain bottle opener cut from tempered Sheffield steel and laser-etched with Kings of Pain hallmarks. Black only. $45.

Way to twist my words atmo. I hope someday we
meet personally so I can twist something of yours.

ps

arrange disorder

:no::no::no:
:no::no::no:
:no::no::no:

[cfox]

If you really want to discuss this rather than gripe about my comment as an attempt to cajole me onto my own petard, then please elaborate on what you're saying. I have no reason to be coy about my position but I don't want to be substantive in a response and receive a rash tirade in response. There's nothing interesting in that for me.

What circle do you think I'm in?

Circle Jerk?


sorry, too easy

[fuzzalow]

Circle Jerk?


sorry, too easy

HaHa! :)

No man no apology neccessary. Take the shot! TAKE THE SHOT! I stepped into that one! :o

All kidding aside, the depth of vituperativeness surrounding the Rapha brand is bizarre. Does this seem right to you? Well, it isn't. 'Cos no one reacts like this to, say, SRAM advertising or Subway sandwich commercials or Chanel #5 or Rolex ads or even the Kardashians. All this crap you don't care about is stuff that never even gets a blip in your conciousness. But the reaction to Rapha for many brings out the red mist and calls to jihad. Why is that so?

Anytime a person responds over the top about something, I think it is rarely about what that person thinks he is responding to or about. It runs a lot deeper than that. To get that depth of response requires getting at something much more personal, something in the product or how its presented and sold that really pisses off a segment of the demographic. And this is never done by accident. But it still is, after all, marketing. And Rapha is targeting you and me with all the imagery, marketing and psycho cues at their disposal that are the designed to wind you up. Which direction you wind yourself into as either up or down depends on you.

Bravo Rapha, bravo!

[ghammer]

assos = wicked expensive, buy if you can afford it, haute experience, its exclusivity is its cost. I own a jersey, it fits well as far as race cut (or trim fit since i no longer race) is concerned. Assos is a $ statement, aimed at a well-to-do crowd but not necessarily the young crowd. Motto: good for you if you can afford it.

rapha = same as above. its exclusivity, outside of its staggering cost, is its clicky social perception. motto: rapha - where cycling is for everyone - but only by invitation. I own a rain jacket that i earned from a now defunct team. to its credit the jacket is wicked well-thought out. Zero chance of buying anything rapha. Like with assos, rapha too is a statement that is aimed at the young crowd (who cannot afford it unless you're a trustafarian), so you get to see a lot of well-to-do folks wearing it.

in my experience i find castelli to be a better fit.

no hate here, just saying. no way i can afford either brand.

[cp43]

If someone - Rapha, Assos, Nashbar - can invent a sock that will adequately insulate the bottom of my foot in the winter, but not be so damn thick that I need to buy new shoes, I would pay big bucks for that sock. I'm throwing down the gauntlet for our favorite whipping boy brands. (Disclosure: I have not tried the new Fugu socks from Assos. Maybe someone here can tell me if that's the ticket.)

Not a sock, but Sole (http://www.yoursole.com/us/mens/footbeds/insulated-response/) make an insulated footbed. I have a pair, they make my Lake winter boots a bit warmer. Depending on your shoes, feet, etc. they may work for you.

I have also found that correct arch support, regardless of insulation, helps keep my feet warm. YMMV.

Chris

[Chris]

Moths to the flame. If any of you/us involved in these threads through the years start a company, I wish you the good fortune of having forums across the interweb devote pages and pages to debating your product and its marketing...

[professerr]

***

[e-RICHIE]

Easy now. We�re just playing here, right? I actually may be in New York around the time of the show I read that Rapha is having for you. If I make it there, hopefully the only thing you�ll twist will be my arm into buying you a Cycle Club coffee. Won�t be hard, they�re Schleck-scrawy.

Okay - kisses, and hugs too. Really.

And for the record, the opening in August is a ruse to get folks interested in my new line of apparel, Derelicte. It
is a fashion, a way of life inspired by the very homeless, the vagrants, the crack whores that make this wonderful
city so unique.

http://www.styleite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Derek-Mugatu-Katinka-zoolander-601714_475_358.jpeg

[54ny77]

to me this ad says, "i'm underemployed right now and can't afford decent healthcare, but damn it all. life is short. that's not going to stop me from riding 400 miles a week and enjoying good coffee. and facial hair, in summer."

:p

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00533/raphatrade1_533051c.jpg

[Louis]

is a fashion, a way of life inspired by the very homeless, the vagrants, the crack whores that make this wonderful
city so unique.

e-R - which one of those three oh-so-hip individuals are you?

[fiamme red]

Some of the Rapha photos are great for caption contests:

"Oh well, I guess that Sportwool™ jerseys do retain odors. Phew! I need to wash this out in vinegar and baking soda when I get home."

http://dyzmn8020x6cd.cloudfront.net/sys-master/products/hca/he3/8798210719774/PBS01-Pro-Team-Base-Layer-BEN_3013.jpg_MEDIUM

[54ny77]

"Epic bull."

http://asset1.itsnicethat.com/system/files/032013/51386c345c3e3c7363006338/img_col_main/rapha8.jpg?1362652247

[fiamme red]

"Sorry, but color is completely wrong for this shoot. That yellow jacket looks too garish. Let him take off the jacket and then shoot in b&w. Yes, that's better. In b&w, with the dilapidated wall behind him, there's an epic feel to the photo."

http://dyzmn8020x6cd.cloudfront.net/sys-master/products/hbf/h97/8801221902366/HBS02-Hero-SS14-01.jpg_MEDIUM

http://dyzmn8020x6cd.cloudfront.net/sys-master/products/h03/h90/8801250541598/HBS02-Loc-SS14-04.jpg_MEDIUM

[54ny77]

"By day, I ride my bike.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JeGlreFavN0/Tjqk--gm8AI/AAAAAAAAVis/Y2ebE9XUGeY/s1600/USA%2BPro%2BCycling%2BChallenge%2B%257C%2BRapha.jp g

By night, I spin a mean yam."

http://bossnotboss.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/yamSpin.gif

[rzthomas]

Is that Derek Zoolander on a bike??? Maybe he's working on "Blue Carbon"!

And then there's the ASSOS Man, who also looks like Zoolander.

[chasea]

Sure, take your shots. I'm proud to work in a field that is my passion. Who here can honestly say that? It's a good company, and a great place to work.

I've owned other brands. Hell, I had 3 pairs of Castelli bibs that were so short in the straps that I had to size way up for my 6'3'' frame. The sheen, and resulting lack of compression, made it so my riding buddies can draw my bait and tackle from memory. And when I pedaled... :banana:

As for their ads,? I don't know; I couldn't tell you. I can't recall a single one.

[Louis]

As for their ads,? I don't know; I couldn't tell you. I can't recall a single one.

Go ahead, you're among friends - you have to admit that you're at least a little embarrassed by the ads and some of those blurbs. ;)

http://publicbikes.com/prodimages/485/30323_1.jpg

[chasea]

The fact is, all of the people you see in Rapha photos can ride. Think that's the case for everyone else? We're not farming the modeling work out to agencies, or using some clause in a pro's contract to convince you that you can ride just like them.

Don't like beards? Don't like tattoos? Have you seen the inside of a bike shop? This is a beardy, tattooed industry. And it's made up of good people. Those are personal choices, and you don't get to make them for others.

The dude a few posts up is a brewer. He's got his own brewery, a newly-opened tasting room, and a family. He's a self-made man. He can decide for himself when and where to shave. Why shouldn't we use him in our photos? Or the "old" guy? Or actual women who cycle?

[Louis]

Don't like beards? Don't like tattoos?

Actually, I have both - a beard and a tat. :)

[jimoots]

I wish I could grow a nice beard.

Manga.Yio.

[oldpotatoe]

I wish I could grow a nice beard.

Manga.Yio.

��� does this mean??

A store in Lugano...? Is that all? Saw the video of the store..takes all the moisture outta your mouth watching it..'dry', like sterile, desert dry..only thing missing is a sniffing, anorexic sales women eating euro yogurt while ignoring you.

Compare with any Rapha store which actually has some life in it, about actually riding your farging bicycle.

Up yer manga, yo, yo, yo...

[Charles M]

I'm going to be sorry for asking this one, but given that a simple Rapha notebook generated 3+ pages in the Classifieds, I gotta ask: why all the hate for Rapha and not for Assos?



Because Assos is a exceptionally high quality Euro-made product with Mid-grade marketing and Rapha is a mid grade Asian made product with exceptionally high quality Euro-made marketing.

[nathanong87]

Is that Derek Zoolander on a bike??? Maybe he's working on "Blue Carbon"!

lol excellent

[54ny77]

this.

Because Assos is a exceptionally high quality Euro-made product with Mid-grade marketing and Rapha is a mid grade Asian made product with exceptionally high quality Euro-made marketing.

[Saguaro]

I own two Rapha jerseys, both labeled "Made in Lithuania". Last time I checked, Lithuania is a European country and a member of the EU.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Because Assos is a exceptionally high quality Euro-made product with Mid-grade marketing and Rapha is a mid grade Asian made product with exceptionally high quality Euro-made marketing.

I'd call Assos exceptionally high quality and Rapha high quality. Just 'cuz their stuff has proven more durable than my castelli kit, which I'm loathe to call low quality but has to be a notch down from Assos (bomb proof) and Rapha (bomb resistant). But the rest sounds about right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gavingould]

everything Rapha I've seen with a chamois in it says Made in Italy. other stuff from various EU locales, much like Campy, and nary a bad word would be said of the gilded C.

yet continually the shouting chorus of "it's all made in China China China" continues. check your facts guys, some of the things are absolutely made there but definitely not all...

respectfully, everyone's entitled to their opinion. i'm just gonna agree with the atmo-man himself... y'all mad at some cloth.

btw, my next kit is coming from a guy 2 states away.

[leooooo]

My GT gloves were made in the UK.
I was surprised, probably conditioned to believe everything was made in China lol

[jimoots]

��� does this mean??

A store in Lugano...? Is that all? Saw the video of the store..takes all the moisture outta your mouth watching it..'dry', like sterile, desert dry..only thing missing is a sniffing, anorexic sales women eating euro yogurt while ignoring you.

Compare with any Rapha store which actually has some life in it, about actually riding your farging bicycle.

Up yer manga, yo, yo, yo...

According to Assos, this is what 'manga.yio' means

In the real world, there
are 50 million cyclists,
but only a very few
can join Manga.Yio.
Qualify yourself & join!
In the course of a one�s life, one reaches various levels and
hopefully passes onto the next.
The higher the level, the more difficult it becomes to move up
(please use your imagination):
Level 0 birth
Level 1 party, party
Level 2 sex
Level 3 show time
Level 4 knowledge
Then, the privileged one�s,
move on to
Level 5 wisdom
For normal people, that is the top level of life.
But a selected few cyclists go on to explore the ultimate
dimension of inner-balance: Level 13

The understanding that a �little thing� called riding your bicycle
is the key to personal fulfillment and well-being!
- Living a life of luxury does not require millions.
- It�s not about lifestyle, it�s about health status.
- Details don�t matter anymore.
- A world ruled by concentrated, pure emotions.
- An environment reduced to the essence.
- Communication without talking.
- No interferences, no hold ups; everything tuned to your personal frequency.
- And whatever you do, it just feels perfect.
Manga.Yio � where YOU determine the pace of the ride.
And than it all comes together. Magic the perfect RIDE!
ASSOS welcomes you!


And yet the masses decry Rapha for their marketing...

[Louis]

And yet the masses decry Rapha for their marketing...

You're just saying that because you're still down at Level 1.

[FlashUNC]

You're just saying that because you're still down at Level 1.

Worse places to be than party, party I think.

[Louis]

- It�s not about lifestyle

Hmmmm. I thought that it was ALL about lifestyle, regardless of level.

I must be so low, I'll never reach enlightenment.

[oldpotatoe]

I own two Rapha jerseys, both labeled "Made in Lithuania". Last time I checked, Lithuania is a European country and a member of the EU.

Hey, hey, HEY...no facts in this discussion!!

[r_mutt]

Because Assos is a exceptionally high quality Euro-made product with Mid-grade marketing and Rapha is a mid grade Asian made product with exceptionally high quality Euro-made marketing.


Indeed! And everyone knows that the Asian made anything for the cycling industry is crap. The good $hit comes from Europe..

[FlashUNC]

Indeed! And everyone knows that the Asian made anything for the cycling industry is crap. The good $hit comes from Europe..

Asian stuff is terrible. Except Shimano. And Nitto. And Sugino. And those Nagasawa frames are pretty sweet. Wasn't SunTour kinda fantastic too...

[cfox]

Because Assos is a exceptionally high quality Euro-made product with Mid-grade marketing and Rapha is a mid grade Asian made product with exceptionally high quality Euro-made marketing.

Cracks me up. Reminds me of those dorks in Ford trucks with the sticker of Calvin peeing on a Chevy sign. Brand allegiance is fine. Childish, but fine. But the need to snipe another brand that isn't your favorite is just stupid.

[oldpotatoe]

Indeed! And everyone knows that the Asian made anything for the cycling industry is crap. The good $hit comes from Europe..

Tee hee, I get it.

[PQJ]

Young Doc: No wonder this circuit failed. It says "Made in Japan".

Marty McFly: What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan.

Young Doc: Unbelievable.

[chasea]

"Made in X. It's better than Y, even though I'm from Z."

[hockeybike]

The Assos manga.yo marketing piece is a beautiful example of self-awareness. They know their customers will buy regardless of what they day or how they market it, so they just go for full on absurdity for fun. I hope. If they're actually trying to reign in new customers...ouch.

Can anyone speak to whether the marketing fluff sounds less absurd in its native tongue?

[oldpotatoe]

The Assos manga.yo marketing piece is a beautiful example of self-awareness. They know their customers will buy regardless of what they day or how they market it, so they just go for full on absurdity for fun. I hope. If they're actually trying to reign in new customers...ouch.

Can anyone speak to whether the marketing fluff sounds less absurd in its native tongue?

I didn't know the Swiss had a sense of humor.

[Louis]

I didn't know the Swiss had a sense of humor.

Two Zurich bankers walk into a bar...

[Anarchist]

According to Assos, this is what 'manga.yio' means



And yet the masses decry Rapha for their marketing...

Not the masses, just the jackasses around here.

[dieonthishill]

Not the masses, just the jackasses around here.

I love how people knock Rapha's advertising when some bike companies (you can see them if you look through any cycling magazine) have some of the cheesiest ads ever. Not just in cycling, in general. Poor photoshopped blur, gimmicky CUM (carbon upper molding... :eek:) type stuff.

From a person who is in the marketing/advertising world, Rapha's work is truly beautiful. They sink money into gorgeous films that probably don't net them very much profit. But it builds the brand and separates them from the rest (And yes, I know the price does too :))

[wT29]

I love how people knock Rapha's advertising when some bike companies (you can see them if you look through any cycling magazine) have some of the cheesiest ads ever. Not just in cycling, in general. Poor photoshopped blur, gimmicky CUM (carbon upper molding... :eek:) type stuff.

Case in point: Rui Costa's Merida commercial. Almost every commercial break during the Tour. He sounded so intense talking about better aerodynamics.

[rnhood]

From a person who is in the marketing/advertising world, Rapha's work is truly beautiful. They sink money into gorgeous films that probably don't net them very much profit. But it builds the brand and separates them from the rest (And yes, I know the price does too :))

True. In general people are very fashion conscience. The best marketing creates images/icons/colors, etc., that people want to see - that they can identify with - and is different than previous hits. The products don't have to be benchmark or unique in performance.

Rapha and Beats Music are both good examples of successful creative marketing. People get hooked and can't send in the credit card number fast enough.

[lil_champ]

The videos and all the marketing are definitely a big part of it, but Rapha came along a few years ago when the choices for cycling clothing were pretty bad. You could either be a brightly colored racer wannabe or wear baggy MTB clothes. I feel like a lot of people were always saying "I wish somebody would just make some bike clothes that don't look terrible." Rapha finally did... for a price.

[martl]

Assos is a company that started and grew building very good stuff (for some: the best) for racers. Many a pro took his team bibs to assos to sew one of their chamois.
Assos recently turned marketing-oriented, but that was 20 years after succeeding by just making good stuff.

Rapha as a brand was created to be cool. The design, the choice of articles, the events they support, all serve the one aim. The owners claim they love cycling and maybe they do, but given the business idea, it is hard to tell if they really do or just say so because it fits the brand image. A bit too streamlined for my liking.

[beeatnik]

Lucky is the cat who wears Raphas who doesn't ride with other cats who wear Raphas.

[professerr]

***

[lil_champ]

This is true, but the same can be said about a lot of kit styles.

I think about 70 of the time I see someone wearing Rapha stuff (which is hard to miss because of the single strip motif, which adds three extra seams too), they are riding in pairs, both in Rapha. No idea why that is.

[fiamme red]

The videos and all the marketing are definitely a big part of it, but Rapha came along a few years ago when the choices for cycling clothing were pretty bad. You could either be a brightly colored racer wannabe or wear baggy MTB clothes. I feel like a lot of people were always saying "I wish somebody would just make some bike clothes that don't look terrible." Rapha finally did... for a price.That's pretty much what Simon Mottram told Velo News (http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/07/news/excess-agony-pantani-interview-rapha-founder_334957), but it's just revisionist history for the purpose of marketing. It was always possible to buy tasteful, non-garish clothes for road cycling.

By the way, doesn't wearing a pink Pantani jersey (http://www.rapha.cc/it/en/shop/pantani-jersey/product/PTI01) make one a "brightly colored racer wannabe"?

[hategizzard]

After 13 pages of posts explaining how terrible a person you are for every choice of kit, I've made the only safe choice: I will henceforth cycle only in the nude.

Please don't have a similar debate regarding bike brands or I will have to walk around naked, instead.

[Chris]

Rapha as a brand was created to be cool. The design, the choice of articles, the events they support, all serve the one aim. The owners claim they love cycling and maybe they do, but given the business idea, it is hard to tell if they really do or just say so because it fits the brand image. A bit too streamlined for my liking.

Like the clothes or not; it makes me no difference. Let me assure you though that the CEO (Simon) and the rest of the crew at the top LOVE cycling. I've known several of the guys for quite awhile and I dropped by the HQ when I was in London two weeks ago. I had a great chat with Simon about all things cycling (even this thread and others like it). Simon had just ridden his bike in from across town from his son's graduation I believe. A good third of the bottom floor is taken up with bikes of employees hanging from hooks. This company is a case (like bike shops around our country and other companies in the industry) of someone who loves cycling and wanted to have a business associated with his passion.

It perplexes me when I think that people believe that someone wanted to make a ton of money through marketing and they picked the cycling industry in which to do it. If you know the industry you understand why that's so foolish.

[fiamme red]

Maybe people hate Rapha because of the attitude that starts with the CEO?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/01/rapha-the-brand-thats-making-cycling-into-a-lifestyle

Simon Mottram, the chief executive of the cyclewear brand Rapha, is the cycling world’s equivalent of the fashion police, and a rush hour ride across London last week only reinforced his belief in the need for his upmarket gear. “The amount of people on bikes was amazing because it was a sunny morning but actually nine out of 10 looked absolutely appalling,” he says. “Not only did they look terrible but the stuff they were wearing …” He tails off muttering about sweaty high-vis jackets and the probable chafe caused by baggy shorts.I commuted today in t-shirt and pants. I guess I looked absolutely appalling by Mottram's standards, but I don't see the need to wear expensive cycling gear when I'm just riding 12 miles round-trip.

I have a bright yellow hi-viz cheap Castelli rain jacket that I'll take any day over a black or pink Rapha jacket.

[54ny77]

the proper description is that you'll be curating an au naturel attire.

:D

After 13 pages of posts explaining how terrible a person you are for every choice of kit, I've made the only safe choice: I will henceforth cycle only in the nude.

Please don't have a similar debate regarding bike brands or I will have to walk around naked, instead.

[belopsky]

Yikes, now I dont know what to wear at all

[CunegoFan]

Maybe people hate Rapha because of the attitude that starts with the CEO?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/01/rapha-the-brand-thats-making-cycling-into-a-lifestyle

I commuted today in t-shirt and pants. I guess I looked absolutely appalling by Mottram's standards, but I don't see the need to wear expensive cycling gear when I'm just riding 12 miles round-trip.

I doubt you looked more appalling than this.

https://alleycatfixedgear.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/2146-24.jpeg

Now is the time on Sprockets when we dance!

[saab2000]

Good guess, but wrong. Assos was founded in 2000, long after Gore invented the internet and only a couple years before Rapha.

Assos has been around since the early 1980s.

I haven't read any part of this but I find the mockery of Rapha laughable. If you don't like it, don't buy it. It's that simple. I love their marketing and I've had great success with their products.

[colker]

People hate Rapha because they turned geeky passion into marketing and money.. How dare could they do that?? Everybody´s dream come true: instead of spending money on cycling geek, making money out of it.
Did it ruin cycling? No.
Did it make it an elitist sport? Not anymore than it ever was.
Did it maculate the purity of it all? Maybe... turned the obssessive geek into a fashion commodity. took the geeky racing poster from the garage wall and made it profitable. HOw dare??
Is Rapha annoying? A little bit but.. objectively speaking? Clothes look good. Clothes are good. Those films are beautifull. The pictures are great. It´s expensive but when was cycling ever a cheap sport?

[saab2000]

Speaking of Assos and their heritage, here's a photograph of Freddy Maertens in 1982 wearing Assos.

The brand has been around for a while.

http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/images-all/photo-galleries-images/racers-images/maertens-freddy/1982-maertens-tirreno-adriatico.jpg

[berserk87]

I am sort of the opposite a little bit.

The Rapha stuff I own is highly functional for my wants/needs. The stuff works. I've scored all of my gear on closeout or with a substantial discount. Their bibs are the best that I have ever owned. The jerseys that I have are top notch, and the winter jacket/jersey thing that I have is the highest quality kit I've ever had.

Some of Rapha's marketing is cool (B&W pics of folks cycling in bad weather), but more of it is ridiculous to me (all of the double-secret clubs they have, folks drinking $20 coffees, the dudes wearing skinny jeans). Rapha seems to be trying to force a contrived culture on us.

Assos can be more expensive than Rapha on a lot of things (i.e. their high-end winter bibs at around $600). The few Assos things I have owned I have not liked, especially for the money. And they don't tout their gear to be durable, per se - it's mainly about comfort. The Assos guy/girl are hilarious looking drones. I've personally had to deal with more Assos snobs than Rapha snobs - that's also been a factor for me, but it's just coincidence.

I don't hate Assos, but I don't dig their products as much as Rapha's.

[fiamme red]

Speaking of Assos and their heritage, here's a photograph of Freddy Maertens in 1982 wearing Assos.

The brand has been around for a while.

http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/images-all/photo-galleries-images/racers-images/maertens-freddy/1982-maertens-tirreno-adriatico.jpgAssos designed and branded a line of aerodynamic components in the late 70's and early 80's: rims, cranks, saddles, and pedals. Here's a pair of their platform pedals on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ASSOS-Pedal-set-incredibly-rare-vintage-Lightweight-road-bike/282131165745

Assos also claims to have introduced the first anatomical skinsuit in 1978: https://www.condorcycles.com/blogs/journal/53701633-design-icons-the-assos-skinsuit.

Rapha didn't make any technical advances, they simply capitalized on existing trends.

[e-RICHIE]

Rapha didn't make any technical advances, they simply capitalized on existing trends.

Is that a reason for people to hate them more than Assos?

[fiamme red]

Is that a reason for people to hate them more than Assos?Mottram is not an innovator in any way (just a very skilled marketer), and yet he says that he has brought something new to the cycling market. For example, Mottram has often implied that high-quality cycling clothes were not available before Rapha came along, e.g.:

http://www.velonews.com/2014/07/news/excess-agony-pantani-interview-rapha-founder_334957

Simon Mottram: It’s a simple story, really. I was just a customer, an active rider, not a racer. I don’t come from racing bikes, I always rode bikes. I was in my early 30s and I would go down to my local bike shop (Condor Cycles) and I would go in wanting to feed my habit, spend my money on something. I wasn’t really interested in metal and I couldn’t buy a bike every couple weeks. But I’d come away not spending any money, stuck with the clothing, accessories, and surroundings of the bike. It was so horrible; the quality was really bad. Which is bad enough, because I got to the point in my life that I wanted good stuff when I ride a bike, I really want stuff that works, that didn’t compromise. So, the quality was bad but it was also pretty horrible to look at. You compromise on performance and quality all at the same time. Back in 2000 or 2001, cycling kit was polyester. It still largely is. But it’s just really cheap polyester. You couldn’t buy a jersey for more than 40 pounds, 60 bucks. That’s what the industry said people would pay, and yet I would regularly go buy a pair of jeans for 200 bucks. I was used to spending money on stuff that I didn’t care about. Yet the thing I cared about the most in the world, my passion, where it is quite hard because you carry all the **** with you and you’re going on the bike for seven or eight hours in different terrain, you need your stuff to work really well, and I was prepared to pay for it. Not only that, but why can’t you have stuff that looks good? So why should I compromise performance and style; why should I make these sacrifices? It didn’t make sense. So it used to really frustrate the hell out of me.

[charliedid]

It's just god damn clothing

[charliedid]

FWIW: I rode today in Assos shorts and a Rapha jersey. Go ahead and try to make sense of that one!

PS Don't ask about my socks

[saab2000]

FWIW: I rode today in Assos shorts and a Rapha jersey. Go ahead and try to make sense of that one!

PS Don't ask about my socks

I do it all the time. And I wear DeFeet socks. They're great. And Sidi shoes.

You're buying it. Use what works!

When someone else buys it for you, then you can care.

[beeatnik]

Rapha threads are so weird.

Pun intended.

How many factories or research/manufacturing facilities does Rapha own or manage?

How many patents does Rapha have?

How much intellectual property can one buy for 200 mil?

How popular is Rapha in Spain or Italy or Germany (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)?

[Louis]

Rapha threads are so weird.

Pun intended.

How many factories or research/manufacturing facilities does Rapha own or manage?

How many patents does Rapha have?

How much intellectual property can one buy for 200 mil?

How popular is Rapha in Spain or Italy or Germany (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)?

But think of all the free publicity they get, when they as much as lift a finger - that right there has to be worth several million.

[jlwdm]

I have 8 pair of Assos bibs (and maybe 4 Rapha) but I have only 1 Assos jersey. I think they have some great materials, but for many years Assos has not made a jersey I would wear.

Jeff

[Scuzzer]

Is that a reason for people to hate them more than Assos?

Nope. We hate them cause they're hip and trendy.

[Louis]

Nope. We hate them cause they're hip and trendy.

I'm confused - are we saying that it's hip and trendy to hate a company who's shtick is that their kit is hip and trendy? :confused:

[Scuzzer]

I'm confused - are we saying that it's hip and trendy to hate a company who's shtick is that their kit is hip and trendy? :confused:

My wife says I'm a contrarian so what's the general feeling towards Rapha? Is it so hip and trendy that it passed itself into being not hip and trendy enough? Or is it still hip and trendy enough for me to hate them? What does the Walmart move do?

Help me, I don't know what to buy.

[Louis]

Help me, I don't know what to buy.

Tell me what the best chain lube is, and I'll tell you what the best bibs and saddle are.

[roguedog]

I dig Rapha. I like the style of their clothes. Classic and doesn't SCREAM labels at you (for the most part). I like that they bring mostly equal quality to women's clothes. I like that they use real women cyclists in their ads. I like that they respect women enough to have colors other than teal, purple, or pink. OMG.

I don't dig Assos. In this instance I think their history gets in their way. I can't remember their clothing models or how to use them when. I don't like that their jerseys are so... technical looking. Robotic. Most of all, and the prime one, I cannot stand how they treat women in their ads. And worse, the models don't even look like they cycle. Fake news. On top of that they only seem to invest minimally in the women's line.. just to get by to say they have women's line. But.. mostly, can't stand the ads. <eye roll>

Will buy Rapha all day long for their support of women's clothes and women's cycling. They put money and support where their mouth (and marketing) is (canyon/sram).

[charliedid]

I have 8 pair of Assos bibs (and maybe 4 Rapha) but I have only 1 Assos jersey. I think they have some great materials, but for many years Assos has not made a jersey I would wear.

Jeff

That is a wholotta shorts, you wear more than one at a time? ;-)

[martl]

I'm going to be sorry for asking this one, but given that a simple Rapha notebook generated 3+ pages in the Classifieds, I gotta ask: why all the hate for Rapha and not for Assos?

The first time i heard how brilliant Assos products were, an Ex-Rider told me so.

The first time i heard how brilliant Rapha products were, a fella with a long beard, a replica Campagnolo cap and skinny, hairy legs told me so.

[Cloozoe]

Own both, like individual pieces from both, but now that a couple of Walmart heirs bought Rapha, probably look elsewhere.

[mcteague]

I have 2 pair of Rapha Classic bibs and really like them, the best I have owned so far. I did buy each with a coupon and generally find their prices too high. Just recently I picked up some Pactimo Summit Raptor 2.0 bibs, also at sale price, and think they are nearly as good. I am not a big fan of the compression material but otherwise they are wonderful. Also bought a Pactimo jacket and jersey. Both are excellent but I find the the zipper pull on the left side of the garment a bit odd.

Check them out: https://www.pactimo.com/

Tim

[simonov]

Tell me what the best chain lube is, and I'll tell you what the best bibs and saddle are.

The answer is NFS.

[William]

The answer is NFS.

The answer is ATB.






William

[oldpotatoe]

Assos has been around since the early 1980s.

I haven't read any part of this but I find the mockery of Rapha laughable. If you don't like it, don't buy it. It's that simple. I love their marketing and I've had great success with their products.

Mee Too and it really is that simple..this gig of hate is right up there with the 'tubie wars'..

[oldpotatoe]

My wife says I'm a contrarian so what's the general feeling towards Rapha? Is it so hip and trendy that it passed itself into being not hip and trendy enough? Or is it still hip and trendy enough for me to hate them? What does the Walmart move do?

Help me, I don't know what to buy.

Nothing because Walmart didn't buy them..fake news..:eek:

Had some assos, didn't like it, have Rapha, do like it and really like their marketing..Bet more beginning cyclists have 'heard' of Rapha than Assos..

[makoti]

the answer is nfs, atmo.

fify ;)

[shoota]

I have pieces from both and like them both. My Assos bibs are better than my Rapha, my Rapha Pro Team Jersey is better than any piece of cycling kit I've ever used or owned period.

[Macadamia]

thread from 2014, picked right back up like nothing happened
(except the other rapha thread getting locked)

[zap]

edit


I don't dig Assos. In this instance I think their history gets in their way. I can't remember their clothing models or how to use them when. I don't like that their jerseys are so... technical looking. Robotic. Most of all, and the prime one, I cannot stand how they treat women in their ads. And worse, the models don't even look like they cycle. Fake news.

Can't speak for the lady, never met her.

I did meet and talk to Andreas a bit. He's a ranked amateur athlete (he has a full time non modeling job) and could probably out ride 99% of paceliners.

https://www.competitivecyclist.com/learn/behindthezeghos

Assos v Rapha. Never tried on Rapha clothing as they have no retailers where I live(d).

[fignon's barber]

I like Assos bibs because if you buy them on sale you can use them for 2 or 3 years and then resell them on ebay for about what you paid for them (mindboggling, but people actually buy used bibs).
Rapha or Assos? To me, Assos is a real, organic company that started out sewing clothes in a little shop. Rapha is a façade.

[scho74]

Assos bibs and Rapha Classic jerseys all day every day.

[avalonracing]

Assos bibs and Rapha Classic jerseys all day every day.

Even when riding?

[scho74]

Even when riding?

Nope, that's done in Speedos. :banana:

[54ny77]

https://rossclayton.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/image_jpeg.jpg

:banana:

Nope, that's done in Speedos. :banana:

[ripvanrando]

Been wearing Assos shorts and bibs since chamois came from a real animal.

I never loved Assos jerseys until I wore one 29 straight days riding. They ain't bad. The shorts are better.

[fuzzalow]

Jim Young: [to the new recruits] Anybody who tells you Rapha is the root of all evil doesn't f**king have any.


Quote for Jim Young (Character)
from Boiler Room (2000)

[pasadena]

I have 2 pair of Rapha Classic bibs and really like them, the best I have owned so far. I did buy each with a coupon and generally find their prices too high. Just recently I picked up some Pactimo Summit Raptor 2.0 bibs, also at sale price, and think they are nearly as good. I am not a big fan of the compression material but otherwise they are wonderful. Also bought a Pactimo jacket and jersey. Both are excellent but I find the the zipper pull on the left side of the garment a bit odd.

Check them out: https://www.pactimo.com/

Tim

I took a risk to try Pactimo.
They sent me the wrong size, and then expected me to pay to ship back.
I sent everything back and will not order from them again.

Everything I hear about Rapha, they have top notch customer service.
The one thing Rapha, or any expensive brand does well (or should) is customer service.

I've dealt with a couple Australian brands and they have absolutely fantastic customer service.
That's worth a few extra dollars on the msrp over someone like Pactimo that you loose money on, even if it's their error.

[beeatnik]

Hi, Pasadena! World Famous Rose Bowl tonight?

I'll be riding this bika:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4398/36452364915_a985d17f3e_h.jpg

[pasadena]

Hi, Pasadena! World Famous Rose Bowl tonight?

:beer:
i'll be there

Damn Albee
I wish I was your size. I would totally jump you and toss you into the bushes for at least two of your rides.

[beeatnik]

Master Piu would fit you. It's the same size as your Ridley. Let me know if you ever want to borrow it long term.

[akelman]

I'll be riding this bika:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4398/36452364915_a985d17f3e_h.jpg

Good gravy, that's pretty.

[pasadena]

Master Piu would fit you. It's the same size as your Ridley. Let me know if you ever want to borrow it long term.

If I did a Gattaca on my legs and added a couple inches maybe :p
..might be worth it for that ride. Where's my saw...

[makoti]

Everything I hear about Rapha, they have top notch customer service.
The one thing Rapha, or any expensive brand does well (or should) is customer service.


Well, hear it again. I've had to send things back for their fault & my own. Every time, very helpful & easy to deal with. They even helped me out with a limited edition item to give to a friend who's a cancer survivor. Love their shorts, jerseys, and service.

[pdmtong]

Great, so now if you don�t like Rapha�s branding you�re mad, filled with angst, have issues, and are looking for a target. But good news: the cure is a Rapha King of Pain bottle opener cut from tempered Sheffield steel and laser-etched with Kings of Pain hallmarks. Black only. $45.

anyone paying $45 gaffed the purchase.

Got mine for $10 when they blew them out - btw works great

[mcteague]

I took a risk to try Pactimo.
They sent me the wrong size, and then expected me to pay to ship back.
I sent everything back and will not order from them again.

Everything I hear about Rapha, they have top notch customer service.
The one thing Rapha, or any expensive brand does well (or should) is customer service.

I've dealt with a couple Australian brands and they have absolutely fantastic customer service.
That's worth a few extra dollars on the msrp over someone like Pactimo that you loose money on, even if it's their error.

Exchanges they pay to ship back:
Shipping on exchanges is paid by Pactimo. You will be provided a prepaid USPS return label via email.

Plain returns, they don't:
Pactimo does not provide return labels for returns/refunds. Returns must be pre-paid. We are sorry, but we cannot accept C.O.D returns.

https://www.pactimo.com/pages/returns-repairs

However, if you just wanted to return the wrong size I would expect them to cover that cost if it was their error.

Tim

[makoti]

Exchanges they pay to ship back:
Shipping on exchanges is paid by Pactimo. You will be provided a prepaid USPS return label via email.

Plain returns, they don't:
Pactimo does not provide return labels for returns/refunds. Returns must be pre-paid. We are sorry, but we cannot accept C.O.D returns.

https://www.pactimo.com/pages/returns-repairs

However, if you just wanted to return the wrong size I would expect them to cover that cost if it was their error.

Tim

Rapha includes a pre-paid return label with your order. Don't even need to ask for it. Nice touch.

[chiasticon]

Nothing because Walmart didn't buy them..fake news..:eek:fwiw, RZC (Walton offspring who bought Rapha) are also invested in Allied CycleWorks, the new made-in-america carbon fiber bike company from Little Rock. there was a thread about them on here last week or so, with everyone gushing over the frames. curious how many people who would never buy Rapha now would never buy an Allied for the same reason.

[Brian Smith]

Because with Assos, there had to be a product worth owning before there had to be a brand worth representing. The long-time riders who've posted understand this. Let no good deed...
Hey, all this talk, and reaching page 17, but nobody would probably breathe a word about Assos in this country or this market without Othan, and now Othan's gone (http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/chicagotribune/obituary.aspx?pid=186129820).

[fiamme red]

Hey, all this talk, and reaching page 17, but nobody would probably breathe a word about Assos in this country or this market without Othan, and now Othan's gone (http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/chicagotribune/obituary.aspx?pid=186129820).Many nice comments about him here: http://www.bicycleretailer.com/international/2017/07/17/othon-ochsner-importer-and-connoisseur-finer-things-dies-83#.WY0SA9QrK9I.

[pasadena]

if it was their error.

Tim

Dude, I ordered a SM and they sent a MED and I contacted them directly. How is that my fault?

My friend got me some socks they had on sale. They seem alright.

[merlincustom1]

Is it winter already?

[mcteague]

Dude, I ordered a SM and they sent a MED and I contacted them directly. How is that my fault?

My friend got me some socks they had on sale. They seem alright.

Defensive much? I never typed a word saying it was your fault. My actual line was However, if you just wanted to return the wrong size I would expect them to cover that cost if it was their error. That means I think with errors on their part, which your situation falls under, they should pay return shipping.

Tim

[pasadena]

Defensive much? I never typed a word saying it was your fault. My actual line was However, if you just wanted to return the wrong size I would expect them to cover that cost if it was their error. That means I think with errors on their part, which your situation falls under, they should pay return shipping.

Tim

Tim you just repeated what I posted then.
It's history. Nothing you can do if they refuse to take responsibility.
Anything more, and it's a fat waste of time.
I just chalk it up to experience and not deal with them again.

I shouldn't even mention it since it brings up all this discussion, that's my mistake.

My point is, if a company like Rapha or Catella has excellent service and stand behind their products, than the purchase price doesn't mean much.

Right now I feel like Pactimo just stole another 5 min of my life. If I just bought Rapha, I would be way ahead right now... :D

I don't have any Rapha gear but Catella- again, great service- and I made a ordering mistake and happily paid to ship it back- and they were so cool about the whole process.
It's just night and day.

[livingminimal]

fwiw, RZC (Walton offspring who bought Rapha) are also invested in Allied CycleWorks, the new made-in-america carbon fiber bike company from Little Rock. there was a thread about them on here last week or so, with everyone gushing over the frames. curious how many people who would never buy Rapha now would never buy an Allied for the same reason.

That's actually too bad, because I was sort of committed to getting into an Allied next year. Still on the fence with Rapha, leaning towards no new product purchases.