Knees at TDC of Stroke

[Splash]

I see the TDF riders have their knees pointing inwards at TDC and seems like they are just glancing the TT.

I understand this is sound technique.

I have tried it, but cannot achieve it.

How can I achieve this task?


Splash

[oldpotatoe]

I see the TDF riders have their knees pointing inwards at TDC and seems like they are just glancing the TT.

I understand this is sound technique.

I have tried it, but cannot achieve it.

How can I achieve this task?


Splash

Things like that are physiological not psychological. In other words, if you fit and physiology make it so, otherwise w/o gross changes to your fit/pedal-shoe-foot interface.

[happycampyer]

It's a deformity that comes from excessive EPO use.

[yoshirider]

I have tried it, but cannot achieve it.

How can I achieve this task?


Check to make sure your saddle isn't too low.

Need more information for us to make recommendations.

[Splash]

When I pedal, I observe my knee to bow a little out at TDC.

Not sure whether this is a normal occurance from a physiological point of view or what?

This same occurance was observed with my saddle 20-30 mm lower as well. I have since raised saddle height to be more in line with more research I have done to produce what i think is the correct saddle height now.

But, I do see almost every TDF rider have their knees pointed inwards and probably touching their top tubes with the top of their knees at TDC.

Splash

[R2D2]

I see the TDF riders have their knees pointing inwards at TDC and seems like they are just glancing the TT.

I understand this is sound technique.

I have tried it, but cannot achieve it.

How can I achieve this task?


Splash

You usually have to have you shoes toed in quite a bit.
Works for some and not for others.

[Splash]

thanks.

Does this mean the cleats have to be adjusted so that the shoe is angled inwards (with heal angled outwards as a result)?


Splash

[yoshirider]

How much of a gap do you have between your cleats and the crank arm?

Not sure if this is related, but it might be worth checking whether your leg just naturally flares outward (like when you walk and run).

Bowleggedness at all?

[ultraman6970]

As potato said, is the way the guys are, If your feet are inward when you ride the bike the knees are going to be inward, kind'a touching the top tube.

If you want to do that is super easy, just put the cleats in such a way that the feet/shoes are 90 degrees (or perfectly straight) to the crankset. The knees probably will touch the top tube, the issue is that you can harm your knees big time if you aren't normally with the feet inwards.

For example if your feet standing are like in 2:50 pm position if you put the cleats in such a way that the shoe or feet are parallel to the crankset the knees will get super close to the top tube but i dont want to tell you the problems that will bring to your knees later on specially if you arent young.

[Splash]

Thansk guys.

Not bow legged.

I will need to measure the gap between my cleats and crank arm - later - I am at work atm.

Splash

[yoshirider]

FYI, you might end up with some hair pinching and cable rubbing on thighs from knees inward riding. Ouchies :(

[rustychisel]

you need to weigh less than 140lb, have superb physical fitness and flexibility, and most importantly, a pelvis so narrow you couldn't pass an acorn.

A squirrel would fulfil all criteria.

[ultraman6970]

More than closeness to the top tube or to the crankset you should be more concerned about knee tracking, if the knees and legs are tracking straight (if the legs are bowed) and you have no problems I would not try do weird experiments trying to get as pro as possible because like half of the pro tour guys since they have to go with their sponsors they get weird set ups in almost everything just because the sponsor doesn't have what they need and they just do mods to the stuff just to make it work and keep the sponsors happy.

For example, this year as never before I've seen wobbling knees in the tour, clearly issues with support in the sponsors shoes...

[oldpotatoe]

thanks.

Does this mean the cleats have to be adjusted so that the shoe is angled inwards (with heal angled outwards as a result)?


Splash

Please don't arbitrarily toeing your feet way nose in just cuz or you may seriously injure yourself, wreck your knees or something. Go see a fit guy.

[Joachim]

I see the TDF riders have their knees pointing inwards at TDC and seems like they are just glancing the TT.

I understand this is sound technique.

I have tried it, but cannot achieve it.

How can I achieve this task?


Splash

Why would you want to? Your anatomy might be totally different than the riders who pedal like this incl pelvic width. Who said it is sound technique? Apply your obsessions to something more productive for your cycling.

[professerr]

***

[Splash]

Some great responses.

Thank you.

Splash

[macaroon]

Knees bowing in on the downstroke suggests they might need some cleat or heel wedges. However, moving in on the upstroke could just be down to technique. I can make my knees brush the top tube on the upstroke if I want to.

Do not adjust your cleats to achieve this though! Your knees or pedal stroke wont thank you. I use fixed cleats and set them how my feet and knees naturally want them to be .

[macaroon]

In my opinion, getting your shoes/cleats setup correctly is the most important thing interms of efficiency/comfort/power whilst cycling.

Achieving a smooth, powerful pedal stroke is very difficult if your shoes and cleats arent correct.

[Gummee]

IME if your knees are tracking figure-8s, your saddle's not in the right spot. Everything should be straight up and down.

I learned to ride with the knees in to the TT after a few years of riding. IDK if its right, but I was told it recruits more supporting muscles to help pedal. Its also a little more aero.

Concentrate on pushing with the ball of your foot instead of the outer edge.

If you have a gut, pedaling with your knees in is a tough thing to do. AMHIK

M

[Jgrooms]

More than closeness to the top tube or to the crankset you should be more concerned about knee tracking, if the knees and legs are tracking straight (if the legs are bowed) and you have no problems I would not try do weird experiments trying to get as pro as possible because like half of the pro tour guys since they have to go with their sponsors they get weird set ups in almost everything just because the sponsor doesn't have what they need and they just do mods to the stuff just to make it work and keep the sponsors happy.



For example, this year as never before I've seen wobbling knees in the tour, clearly issues with support in the sponsors shoes...


Seriously? Their positions are so dailed through 1000s of miles, coaches, doctors, tunnel time, years of exp.

And yes the shoe guys force them into awkward & under performing positions on goofy bikes w unworkable geometry.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Don't go messing around with your cleats just so your knees look like the pros. If you haven't already, go see a bike fitter. Some people naturally point their knees in, some point them out. Sometimes - but NOT all the times - that is due to muscular imbalance or cleat misalignment that needs changing. I actually think muscular imbalance (especially in the hips) has a lot to do with knee position, but that's something to change in the gym not at your shoes.

[Chris]

I agree with others not to change your cleat position dramatically. My toes point ever so slightly out but my knees are definitely in as described when I pedal. When I was a junior in the 80s this was considered good form (and I suppose it still is). Our team coach taped a 3x5 index card longways on the top tube and we practiced brushing our knees against it on rides and were told to spend a lot of time on the rollers doing the same thing. It may be just some old school mentality, but it seems to me that for a variety of reasons, if you can adapt to this without biomechanical complications then it's probably more efficient for a couple of reasons at least.

[soulspinner]

More than closeness to the top tube or to the crankset you should be more concerned about knee tracking, if the knees and legs are tracking straight (if the legs are bowed) and you have no problems I would not try do weird experiments trying to get as pro as possible because like half of the pro tour guys since they have to go with their sponsors they get weird set ups in almost everything just because the sponsor doesn't have what they need and they just do mods to the stuff just to make it work and keep the sponsors happy.

For example, this year as never before I've seen wobbling knees in the tour, clearly issues with support in the sponsors shoes...

Funny you would say this I watched an Agri riders right knee track away every time it came around............and he was at/near the front.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Funny you would say this I watched an Agri riders right knee track away every time it came around............and he was at/near the front.

This is the problem with generalizations about fit. There's always a very good rider who deviates from the rule. Doesn't make the rule untrue, just goes to show that the "rule" is really just a starting place.

There are some UGLY golf swings on the PGA tour, but that doesn't mean I should not work to keep my head down when I swing:
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/06/who-has-the-worst-swing-on-the-pga-tour-according-to-fellow-pros

[tiretrax]

When I got back into road cycling 10 years ago, the fitter said he liked my form. He mentioned that pros knees scrape the frame as they come through the downstroke, and only one of mine did that. When I told him that old injuries prevented that one from pointing in, he told me to rinde in the position most natural and comfortable to me and not worry about emulating pros (and potentially hurting myself). He then pointed to a picture of LA on a TT bike. LA's had a hunchback profile rather than a more aero straight back.

[Lewis Moon]

I ride 190 cranks, which means that my knee comes up higher at the top of the stroke. I've noticed that, if I pack on a few pounds, I ride more "cowboyed out".
YMMV

[believe]

Fastforaslowguy is right, setup your cleats based on your anatomy and correct any muscle imbalances. Many of us at one time or another have fallen into the trap of chasing the idea of a 'pro' fit rather than moving to a position that is safe and efficient for our bodies. A couple weeks ago I fit the dean of health sciences for a university and this subject came up. Even PHDs, who should know better, get caught up with vanity on the bike.

When the hip is flexed and the crank is at TDC, the gluteus medius assists in medial rotation of the thigh. Many cyclists have weak gluteus medius muscles which, in conjuction with tight abductors, cause the knee to move away from the bike at TDC. How are your glutes, piriformis, TFL/IT band? Weak? Tight?

In other instances, a low hip to torso angle allows the top of the thigh to bump into the abdomen at TDC, which causes the knee to flick outward. A shorter crank will allow the cyclist to raise the saddle and increase the hip to torso angle at TDC.

[SPOKE]

Find a local fit specialist with a good reputation.