Do the cobbles belong in the TdF?

[Keith A]

So there was quite a bit of discussion after today's stage in the TdF if the cobbles belong in this race. The three racers (Cancellara, TJ and Christian Vande Velde) that commented seemed to say that they shouldn't be there.

What do you guys think?

[oldpotatoe]

So there was quite a bit of discussion after today's stage in the TdF if the cobbles belong in this race. The three racers (Cancellara, TJ and Christian Vande Velde) that commented seemed to say that they shouldn't be there.

What do you guys think?

Would their opinion be different if it had been dry?

Most crashes I saw were on non cobbles.

Not every year maybe but sure, why not?

[miguel]

yes the cobbles belong

[Keith A]

Peter -- You are correct, most of the crashes were not on the cobbles, but Fabian seemed to say that it was because the different bikes (tires) they were riding, plus the nervousness about the stage is what caused/contributed to the crashes.

[oldpotatoe]

Peter -- You are correct, most of the crashes were not on the cobbles, but Fabian seemed to say that it was because the different bikes (tires) they were riding, plus the nervousness about the stage is what caused/contributed to the crashes.

Does he say the same about P-R? Nervousness, equipment, there are non cobbles in P-R also and 'nervousness'.

[Keith A]

He didn't comment on that, he did say that if you took out the mountains and put in more cobbles, then he could win the TdF ;)

Also, TJ was not happy about them being in there...of course he crashed too today.

[Llewellyn]

The Tour desperately needs more stages with something different to spice it up.
Viva la cobbles :banana:

[Anarchist]

Interesting that the riders seem to want only perfect conditions, freshly re-paved roads and no bad weather. I guess that would be "perfect" for the riders. For the fans it would be deathly dull. Since bike racing is, at heart, a means of selling advertising and betting, what the fans want will win.

[MattTuck]

I feel like there are 3 arguments people use when saying cobbles don't belong in the Tour.

1.) They're too dangerous.
2.) GC time splits are too dependent on luck.
3.) Riders don't like them.

I don't find any of these that compelling. Cycling is a dangerous sport and people crash all the time on regular roads. Luck is a part of racing and can strike at anytime. There's a big group of riders that dislike mountains and time trials as well. Perhaps we should run the race indoors on Wahoo KickRs to get their watts, then weigh the riders and measure their frontal surface area so the appropriate equations can be solved and the race leader calculated.

Based on the stage today, I think they were a perfectly reasonable inclusion in the race. It is not something that happens every year, and the sectors were a fraction of the Paris-Roubaix sectors.

Road surface is an issue any time it rains, and today was no exception. I think including them occasionally is totally reasonable from the tour organizers. Although I think putting them at the end of the tour might make more sense. By then, stuff is more sorted out and you might have a smaller peloton competing for the win and time.

While we're on the subject, I'd love to see more interesting road surfaces. How about some Strade Bianche style dirt roads?

Today was good racing.

[Elefantino]

Yes. HTFU.

[Keith A]

.... Although I think putting them at the end of the tour might make more sense. By then, stuff is more sorted out and you might have a smaller peloton competing for the win and time.
...That's a good point, this might also give a GC contender a chance to make up some time on the leader.

[lil_champ]

Yes. It's the Tour de France, not the Tour de France's nicest smoothest roads. Those cobbled roads belong in the Tour more than the Mall in London. Plus, this discussion wouldn't be happening if the weather wasn't so bad.

Didn't they have cobbles in the Tour just a few years ago? I seem to remember one of the Schlecks crashing out really bad.

[MattTuck]

While I'm on it, I think they should find an auto racing track (like the Nurburgring, but in France) and do a stage there, or the course at Le Mans.

[Md3000]

When was the last time week 1 was as exciting as this year? Today's stage, three great sprints, one neat stage where the top guys showed their face on a nasty little climb, it's great!!

[krhea]

Listen to Bobke's reply on the subject, right on target. As Peter said, crashes happened prior to the cobbles, crashes happened yesterday and the day before...crashes have been happening for 100yrs now. HTFU prima-donnas. They don't change the game to a covered stadium when it's -10 with 15mph winds at Lambo Stadium.
If you're a pro riding the freakin' TDF and you're not mentally tough enough and smart enough to ride in the rain without getting sketchy and "worrying" about what lies ahead you shouldn't be riding.
Give me a break, it rained, guys crashed, Lance doped and the race continues tomorrow. What would riders say if it would of been dry and guys would of crashed prior to the cobbles? Would it of still been a "mental" thing? I don't think so.

This was one of the most interesting and eagerly anticipated stages of the tour in a long time. Other then the "real" mountain stages this probably was "the" most interesting stage of this years and many years past races. Why do you think it was covered by nearly every media outlet, heck, even the today mentioned it! Without the cobbles the TDF probably would of never been mentioned by most media.

Great stage, find more stages that aren't just "ride throughs" in future Tours.

[progetto]

They have track racing if you don't like bumpy roads.

[Ralph]

Just think the courses should not be like a NASCAR restrictor plate race....where the outcome is determined by circumstances and luck, not by serious racing.

[MattTuck]

Listen to Bobke's reply on the subject, right on target. As Peter said, crashes happened prior to the cobbles, crashes happened yesterday and the day before...crashes have been happening for 100yrs now. HTFU prima-donnas. They don't change the game to a covered stadium when it's -10 with 15mph winds at Lambo Stadium.
If you're a pro riding the freakin' TDF and you're not mentally tough enough and smart enough to ride in the rain without getting sketchy and "worrying" about what lies ahead you shouldn't be riding.
Give me a break, it rained, guys crashed, Lance doped and the race continues tomorrow. What would riders say if it would of been dry and guys would of crashed prior to the cobbles? Would it of still been a "mental" thing? I don't think so.

This was one of the most interesting and eagerly anticipated stages of the tour in a long time. Other then the "real" mountain stages this probably was "the" most interesting stage of this years and many years past races. Why do you think it was covered by nearly every media outlet, heck, even the today mentioned it! Without the cobbles the TDF probably would of never been mentioned by most media.

Great stage, find more stages that aren't just "ride throughs" in future Tours.

Nice Kevin. I think that one thing we've seen in the last 20 years is the rise of the super specialist. The GC guys come in so light, it is to the point of malnutrition. Having more unpredictable stages might send the message that you need to come prepared to race a complete race, lest your fragile bones crumple at the sight of a cobble stone.

They have track racing if you don't like bumpy roads.

hehe.

[Davist]

Cobbles are great.

I was kinda surprised to hear that there was some blame of the accidents to the different bikes and low tire pressures and wider tires, to my mind it would seem like it would be easier to navigate on "wide and soft" tires on a more "classics/upright" bike in inclement weather.

I may be out to lunch though, as I know it's hard to switch bikes but they do that for TTs obviously, and that's also a mess in the rain.

[hainy]

The TDF became dead boring as the sprinters in the first week and then the mtn climbers win the GC.

This helps bring other factors into the mix and gives other riders a chance of stage and GC glory.

Also brings choice of equipment into the calculation of the teams.

Most sports outdoor sports are plated all conditions and surfaces so bring it on.

Hainy

[Jgrooms]

Nice Kevin. I think that one thing we've seen in the last 20 years is the rise of the super specialist. The GC guys come in so light, it is to the point of malnutrition. Having more unpredictable stages might send the message that you need to come prepared to race a complete race, lest your fragile bones crumple at the sight of a cobble stone.







hehe.


"Malnutrition" and "fragile bones" not withstanding, this theory was debunked today? 5 10 140 lb Nibali rode away from the supposed 'superior' powerhouse. Heck, Sagan stood poised to wear yellow & couldn't stay w the supposed specialist.


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[Gummee]

Today had to be the most excited I've been to watch a race since the spring classics

M

[Waldo]

Hell yes.


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[bluesea]

Too much weight rides on one cobbled stage, even more than ITT's. At this juncture, it's a stunt stage. Now if they have it every year, then perhaps you will not find Tour hopefuls electing not to race P-R, Flanders etc.

[tiretrax]

Whiners. I think they need more spectators in the roadway!

Seriously, what's the difference between cobbles creating splits in the gc and mountains doing the same? NONE. What's next, complaining about the heat on the Cote d' Azure HTFU. I understand neutralizing an icy, windy mountain descent, but rain on cobbles is standard for March and April. I see no reason to not have challenging courses - nature can't be controlled and is a given obstacle. Quit whining and get riding.

[velotrack]

Hey, I personally wouldn't be a fan of cobbles and pouring rain conditions like today's. But that's me - and I'm not getting paid to ride. This is their job... and cobbles are a part they need to keep doing.

[gasman]

Heck yes. Most of the crashes were on the regular roadways, not on the cobbles. Everything was wet. Reminds me of AS complaining of the wet descent into Gap in 2011.
Like others have said HTFU, you're getting to paid to ride.
Nibali did a great job, it was an exciting stage though I saw it in bits and pieces this morning.

[FlashUNC]

There was less than 15k of cobbled sections in total. This was a far cry from Roubaix.

As someone who is totally apathetic about the Tour and cares more about other Grand Tours and the one day Classics over the annual Gaullic Bore, a little variety is what the race needs.

Giro and Vuelta have recognized it. ASO should with the Tour.

[pbarry]

How many construction workers/firefighters/farmers et al went to work today and hoped for better climactic conditions? Life is hard.

[merckx]

If the TDF continues to offer cobble stages, which they should, then they should also continue to provide a well maintained Froome wagon.

[gary135r]

The TDF became dead boring as the sprinters in the first week and then the mtn climbers win the GC.

This helps bring other factors into the mix and gives other riders a chance of stage and GC glory.

Also brings choice of equipment into the calculation of the teams.

Most sports outdoor sports are plated all conditions and surfaces so bring it on.

Hainy
Touche'. Lars Boom gets a chance at glory with a stage like today's

[gary135r]

If the TDF continues to offer cobble stages, which they should, then they should also continue to provide a well maintained Froome wagon.
The curse of Wiggo

[CunegoFan]

Seriously, what's the difference between cobbles creating splits in the gc and mountains doing the same? NONE.

You mean aside from the fact that a puncture at the wrong moment will lose minutes on a cobble stage.

Of course riders like TJ do not like it. He based his whole season around doing well in this race and he would rather success or failure did not come down to how lucky he was on one day.

[rustychisel]

If the TDF continues to offer cobble stages, which they should, then they should also continue to provide a well maintained Froome wagon.


Yes, very good. I was watching last night and wondering how to turn a joke out of broom wagon and Froome wagon.

And sorry Keith, this is a bit of a silly question which serves to feed the silly debate actually.

Some pave sections in a stage is good, for many of the reasons already expressed, and simply for the variation in riding conditions.

Did the field complain when Stuart O'Grady won his hot, dry, dusty Paris-Roubaix, or did they just accept that was what it was that year and it suited him perfectly?

Also, I believe the TDF is meant to be difficult, otherwise anyone could ride it, and win it. I would have no issue if one years parcours delivered the win to Fabian Cancellara, or Peter Sagan, or any of the many other long-shot allrounders. For me it would mean that the KOM points jersey was likely won be the right person rather than a long range speculator like Virenque, and that the winner would be under attack and the lead in the race quite likely change up to and on the last day. Win win and win.

[thwart]

The roads in France have some cobblestone sections… doesn't seem artificial to have 'em in the TdF.

All-rounders like Merckx would not win in the current 'usual' TdF route, IMO.

And that should change a bit.

[chengher87]

You mean aside from the fact that a puncture at the wrong moment will lose minutes on a cobble stage.

Of course riders like TJ do not like it. He based his whole season around doing well in this race and he would rather success or failure did not come down to how lucky he was on one day.

But that's the nature of Grand Tour racing. Riders are no more lucky on cobbles than they are on a normal road stage. Look at Valverde's puncture last year in the cross winds, Cadel Evans' puncture at the 2009 Vuelta, Andy Schleck's dropped chain in the 2010 Tour, Igor Anton's crash at the 2010 Vuelta and if you want to go in the way back machine, Ocana's crash at the 1971 Tour. And these are examples of people who had on the leader's jersey's, there are plenty more examples of rider's who were in contention that crashed, flatted, etc. that cost the tour.

Crashes are one thing, but Schleck's chain dropping and Cadel's wheel change were in the mountains, where the cars take a much longer time to get up to help (even neutral service) due to the narrow roads. A mechanical there could also cost you minutes.

I mean Froome crashed about 3 miles into stage 4. That's just unlucky.

[earlfoss]

It's the tour of France, not the the tour of the nicest parts of France to ride in.


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[pbarry]

Yes, very good. I was watching last night and wondering how to turn a joke out of broom wagon and Froome wagon.

And sorry Keith, this is a bit of a silly question which serves to feed the silly debate actually.

Some pave sections in a stage is good, for many of the reasons already expressed, and simply for the variation in riding conditions.

Did the field complain when Stuart O'Grady won his hot, dry, dusty Paris-Roubaix, or did they just accept that was what it was that year and it suited him perfectly?

Also, I believe the TDF is meant to be difficult, otherwise anyone could ride it, and win it. I would have no issue if one years parcours delivered the win to Fabian Cancellara, or Peter Sagan, or any of the many other long-shot allrounders. For me it would mean that the KOM points jersey was likely won be the right person rather than a long range speculator like Virenque, and that the winner would be under attack and the lead in the race quite likely change up to and on the last day. Win win and win.

Well said. :beer:

[weisan]

I think we should consult them.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_if_XeEEAXGM/S95Z0FlpOlI/AAAAAAAAIps/v33UMAx_DtM/s400/3675431410_4f2a1d179d_o-1.jpg

http://kcdn.kripy.com/images/2012/07/ezquerra-in-the-mountains.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mOsqmOB4z3s/RqihMch2rvI/AAAAAAAABBc/O6PO_xhj8z8/s400/pelissier.jpg

http://thecblog.familyloftus.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Blog-Derailleur-photos-002.jpg

http://thepersistentpalate.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/tour_de_france_old_passing_cigarette_smoke12797438 47.jpg
:D

[bironi]

When was the last time week 1 was as exciting as this year? Today's stage, three great sprints, one neat stage where the top guys showed their face on a nasty little climb, it's great!!

and yep again.

[cnighbor1]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Keith A]

...

And sorry Keith, this is a bit of a silly question which serves to feed the silly debate actually.

Some pave sections in a stage is good, for many of the reasons already expressed, and simply for the variation in riding conditions.
...After listening to the post race show and the three pros (past and present) saying they shouldn't have included the cobbles, I was curious what other folks thought about this issue. I personally think they should have them in there just like the mountains and TT stages.

[tiretrax]

Some of the stages pictured here were 300k!

I think we should consult them.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_if_XeEEAXGM/S95Z0FlpOlI/AAAAAAAAIps/v33UMAx_DtM/s400/3675431410_4f2a1d179d_o-1.jpg

http://kcdn.kripy.com/images/2012/07/ezquerra-in-the-mountains.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mOsqmOB4z3s/RqihMch2rvI/AAAAAAAABBc/O6PO_xhj8z8/s400/pelissier.jpg

http://thecblog.familyloftus.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Blog-Derailleur-photos-002.jpg

http://thepersistentpalate.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/tour_de_france_old_passing_cigarette_smoke12797438 47.jpg
:D

[carpediemracing]

Cobbles (and narrow roads and other non-hilly obstacles) help separate the wheat from the chaff. Some fragile guys don't know how to race in those conditions, some do. I think of Tom Danielson as one of the more fragile ones - Vaughters said something to that effect I think, saying that he needed to learn how to race.

Tough flatter stages are a great demonstration of a rider's deep understanding of bike racing. Today was epic, with the rain and the tailwind. Less shelter due to the friendly wind, rain kept everyone honest in the corners and on the cobbles.

At the beginning of the coverage I saw the commentators were talking about how Astana had almost no experience on the cobbles. However they were the ones that rode it correctly, even if Nibali made an error and had to dab. Other riders made worse errors, like overlapping to the outside on a corner and ended up in the field/ditch. Minor, minor things that ended up costing them a lot.

[CunegoFan]

But that's the nature of Grand Tour racing. Riders are no more lucky on cobbles than they are on a normal road stage. Look at Valverde's puncture last year in the cross winds, Cadel Evans' puncture at the 2009 Vuelta, Andy Schleck's dropped chain in the 2010 Tour, Igor Anton's crash at the 2010 Vuelta and if you want to go in the way back machine, Ocana's crash at the 1971 Tour. And these are examples of people who had on the leader's jersey's, there are plenty more examples of rider's who were in contention that crashed, flatted, etc. that cost the tour.

Riders have crashed out in the neutral zone. No one will argue that the neutralized zone is just as likely to decide the overall race as any other part of the race. It is about probability. The chance of losing the race in a regular stage is pretty low. It happens but not often. The chance of losing the race because of the numerous things that happen on cobbles is fairly high. So it comes down to whether you want the overall race to possibly be decided by who was lucky on one day.

[tiretrax]

You mean aside from the fact that a puncture at the wrong moment will lose minutes on a cobble stage.

Or in the mountains, or on a time trial, or 5 k from the finish.

When Frank Schlek fell and broke his collarbone in 2010, I don't remember the outrage over cobbled sections. Had it not rained and people not been falling BEFORE the cobbles, then I can't imagine the amount of teeth gnashing that's occured. France is well known for its cobbles, too, not just the Alps and Pyrenees. Cobbles have their place in this race.

If I got paid to ride a bicycle, I'd do it any time and any where and not complain. Not just on smooth roads on bluebird days with temps in the 60's.

I expected to see Lars Boom and a dozen guys finish at the front, but even Nibali rode well.

[rustychisel]

Riders have crashed out in the neutral zone. No one will argue that the neutralized zone is just as likely to decide the overall race as any other part of the race. It is about probability. The chance of losing the race in a regular stage is pretty low. It happens but not often. The chance of losing the race because of the numerous things that happen on cobbles is fairly high. So it comes down to whether you want the overall race to possibly be decided by who was lucky on one day.

No sorry, incorrect.

I don't know why you're doing it but you're arguing against yourself. Which is to be, probability or chance? Chance is luck, and vice~versa.

Either way, you might as well argue against wind or any other single variable which might play an influence upon outcome. Obviously, I'm still gutted that Vaughters was ripped untimely from the race's womb and that the wasp was never sanctioned.

[harryblack]

Most of this talk about "luck" is nonsense too. Usually you make your own luck through strength, poise, preparation etc. Yes, accidents happen etc, everybody who's raced has gotten caught behind or clipped buy some other knucklehead, sure but...

Froome, for one, was obviously not in condition, for whatever reason, to compete today and his unsteadiness showed-- good!

Tejay's whining is just pathetic, who exactly does he think he is? If Talasnky can make the podium, at least he's got some heart & class. I'm still a Taylor Phinney skeptic but I appreciated that the kid wished he was there, in these conditions.

Cancellera is a great racer who's also a clown with his pave flip-flop, tho' granted anyone's mind can go ditzy trying to 'protect' the ridiculous Schleck Bros.

Still picking Contador for yellow.

[rustychisel]

Most of this talk about "luck" is nonsense too. Usually you make your own luck through strength, poise, preparation etc. Yes, accidents happen etc, everybody who's raced has gotten caught behind or clipped buy some other knucklehead, sure but...

agree


Cancellera is a great racer who's also a clown with his pave flip-flop, tho' granted anyone's mind can go ditzy trying to 'protect' the ridiculous Schleck Bros.



ooosh... you strike a mean low blow. :)

I hope nothing I've written has offended you... :cool:

[gianni]

Yes they belong like TPhinney said. Whiney bike racers --TJ-- make it hard for the sport to grow.

I'm sure it's been mentioned but Froomes first crash occurred when he was at the back of the bunch. Not a good place.

This stage was the best in years --real bike racing!

If only the radios would go away we could see more racing.

[gianni]

Most of this talk about "luck" is nonsense too. Usually you make your own luck through strength, poise, preparation etc. Yes, accidents happen etc, everybody who's raced has gotten caught behind or clipped buy some other knucklehead, sure but...

Froome, for one, was obviously not in condition, for whatever reason, to compete today and his unsteadiness showed-- good!

Tejay's whining is just pathetic, who exactly does he think he is? If Talasnky can make the podium, at least he's got some heart & class. I'm still a Taylor Phinney skeptic but I appreciated that the kid wished he was there, in these conditions.

Cancellera is a great racer who's also a clown with his pave flip-flop, tho' granted anyone's mind can go ditzy trying to 'protect' the ridiculous Schleck Bros.



Still picking Contador for yellow.

Well said, +1

[krhea]

Tejay's whining is just pathetic, who exactly does he think he is? If Talasnky can make the podium, at least he's got some heart & class. I'm still a Taylor Phinney skeptic but I appreciated that the kid wished he was there, in these conditions.



Agree 100% Harry, nicely said.

[ShaneAtSilca]

... So it comes down to whether you want the overall race to possibly be decided by who knows how to handle their bike.

I fixed that for you ;)

Most interesting stage I think I've seen in a while.

[rab]

It was a very interesting stage and certainly throws a wrinkle into the current Grand Tour format and how teams have to approach it. I have no issues with cobbles in the tour, but then I don't have to ride it. I do think they should continue to have a stage like this for future editions.
If I was getting paid to ride and my career depended on results and staying healthy, I might also be less than happy about a stage like this.

How many guys went down today? Is it because there are that many bad bike handlers in the TDF peloton? The stakes here are different than those in a one day classic, and the teams and riders obviously would need to take a different approach to such stages in the future, which I think is a nice added element. For now I think the concerns of the riders can't be dismissed as simply being a bunch of whiny softies either. They obviously recognize the additional danger element introduced and aren't super stoked about it.
Saying these guys need to harden the fck up though, really?
Who here would really tell Cancellara he needs to HTFU? I'll put my stock in his opinion, confident he knows what he is talking about.

[rab]

After seeing some of the old TDF pictures and thinking about that, maybe they should throw a dirt road stage or two into the mix as well. See who can climb/descend on dirt and gravel!

[ojingoh]

What I heard from FC in that interview was that he felt that this is a Grand Tour, not a Classic. We can agree on that.
He then also suggested that it's too much to ask a (presumably) light-as-a-feather mountain rider (aka GC contender) to big ring it through mud.

Grudgingly, I agree with him.

What it seems like to this outsider is that the only real qualification a GC rider needs is the ability to email outrageous SRM numbers to a DS who is looking for a GC contender.
What FC is saying is the result of that kind of selection process is you can't expect these guys to cope with anything but a pretty narrow band of pre-understood criteria for what comprises a GT stage. He's saying that this is who these guys really are, because that's what the crowds and the organizers want -- superhuman climbing speed over everything else. And the only way to get that is if you strongly emphasize in the selection process of professionals work ability over everything else.

What I'm struck by is how much I want to disagree with that.

[Scuzzer]

If you disagree with that then why do you grudgingly agree with Canc? I think stages like this are a great way of keeping potential TdF winners from turning themselves into weird looking stick figures.

[Stephen2014]

If it was the CXdF they would be great, but the object of touring would not logically be to pick the worse road surfaces.
For a bit of interest i'd rather see a fixed gear time trial stage.

[ojingoh]

If you disagree with that then why do you grudgingly agree with Canc? I think stages like this are a great way of keeping potential TdF winners from turning themselves into weird looking stick figures.

I'm agreeing that FC is right about riders selected in 2014 to make the Tour. I'm not happily agreeing with it, though!

[pinoymamba]

yes! it keeps it interesting and gives "everyone" a chance at the yellow.

[witcombusa]

After seeing some of the old TDF pictures and thinking about that, maybe they should throw a dirt road stage or two into the mix as well. See who can climb/descend on dirt and gravel!

This ^


dirt mountain roads. then we'd get more useful, versatile bikes for real world use. pro weren't always prima donnas...
what's next, no racing in the rain?

[CNY rider]

WWES
(What would Eddy say?)

[Gummee]

WWES
(What would Eddy say?)

Eddy would say 'ride yer #$%^ bike (and try and keep up!)

M

[oldpotatoe]

WWES
(What would Eddy say?)

"Bring it on"..or some version translated to mid 60's speak..

[Tom]

No. Absolutely not. I want to see the pack ride along behind a break group of 4 or 5 guys and about 20 kilometers out when the calculators say it is time to go pick up the pace and catch them in the last couple hundred meters every day.

[DerekG]

No. Absolutely not. I want to see the pack ride along behind a break group of 4 or 5 guys and about 20 kilometers out when the calculators say it is time to go pick up the pace and catch them in the last couple hundred meters every day.

This is why I quit F1 years ago. Too much of the same race over and over...

As a racer who is built more like Nibali, I actually prefer roads like this on occasion because I know it will make most of the riders arouond me scared giving me an advantage. I ride my road bike on dirt roads plenty and it makes a big difference on race day with my comfort level. It would be nice to see more all rounders with a shot at the title. Stick figures are over rated!

[Gummee]

No. Absolutely not. I want to see the pack ride along behind a break group of 4 or 5 guys and about 20 kilometers out when the calculators say it is time to go pick up the pace and catch them in the last couple hundred meters every day.

That's sarcasm. I can tell!

I think the 'set em all up on trainers and measure wattage and weight and declare a winner' thing sounds even better.

M

[sitzmark]

This ^


dirt mountain roads. then we'd get more useful, versatile bikes for real world use. pro weren't always prima donnas...
what's next, no racing in the rain?

I vote for some single track, downhill, BMX, and trials stages as part of the mix too. Push it to a full cyclocross stage. At least one day in a velodrome. If we're looking for the ultimate bicyclist, then let's get it all in the mix.

In the end, maybe TdF can be more MMAdF. Last rider pedaling wins. :banana:

Or, maybe not... Stage 5 was a bit of "NASCAR comes to F1" (probably more due to rain than anything) ... maybe that's good - I haven't decided yet. For Tour officials it ultimately comes down to what has the most "sales appeal".

[jr59]

The question is how do we, the fans, get more stages like this stage, (5)?

I would guess nothing, as the UCI and promoters that put on this race don't seem to care about what the fans want. Besides, our dollars of course! :rolleyes:

[Rada]

The question is how do we, the fans, get more stages like this stage, (5)?



This. Big surprise that the status quo does not like cobbles. :rolleyes:

[weiwentg]

I am going to disagree.

Eddy Merckx won at Paris Roubaix because he was Eddy Merckx, but the fact is that cycling today is quite specialized. Classics riders and grand tour riders are pretty different in build, and the GT riders have zero cobbles experience. They won't get cobblestones experience, whether we want them to or not - if you were a classics specialist, would you want a bunch of skinny climbers crowding into the fields at Flanders and Roubaix?

For those of you who are asking the GT riders to htfu, consider that the GTs are 20 stages with lots of mountains. That is a lot of htfu-ing already.

If you really want cobbles in the Tour, then why shouldn't we add some mountains to P-R? After all, the classics riders are also a pretty specialized bunch.

PS: IMO, UNNECESSARILY adding risk to a race is stupid. Putting that many pave sectors in a race that is filled with GT contenders is unnecessary risk.

[witcombusa]

I am going to disagree.


PS: IMO, UNNECESSARILY adding risk to a race is stupid. Putting that many pave sectors in a race that is filled with GT contenders is unnecessary risk.


Well if that's what the race is, then it becomes NECESSARY risk. Or pack up your toys and run home...

[Bob Ross]

Those cobbled roads belong in the Tour more than the Mall in London.

^^^This.

[rugbysecondrow]

So there was quite a bit of discussion after today's stage in the TdF if the cobbles belong in this race. The three racers (Cancellara, TJ and Christian Vande Velde) that commented seemed to say that they shouldn't be there.

What do you guys think?

I think so. If it is meant to be a show of skill, then why not have it included?

[Ti Designs]

I think the whole thing is wrong. They call it the Tour de France, I look at the TV at work and I see a bunch of guys riding in England without panniers...

[FlashUNC]

I am going to disagree.

Eddy Merckx won at Paris Roubaix because he was Eddy Merckx, but the fact is that cycling today is quite specialized. Classics riders and grand tour riders are pretty different in build, and the GT riders have zero cobbles experience. They won't get cobblestones experience, whether we want them to or not - if you were a classics specialist, would you want a bunch of skinny climbers crowding into the fields at Flanders and Roubaix?

For those of you who are asking the GT riders to htfu, consider that the GTs are 20 stages with lots of mountains. That is a lot of htfu-ing already.

If you really want cobbles in the Tour, then why shouldn't we add some mountains to P-R? After all, the classics riders are also a pretty specialized bunch.

PS: IMO, UNNECESSARILY adding risk to a race is stupid. Putting that many pave sectors in a race that is filled with GT contenders is unnecessary risk.

Fact is there was fewer than 15k of cobbles in the stage. That's under 10 miles.

And Wiggo has both won a Tour and placed Top 10 in Roubaix this year. Nibali is proof you can do it. Heck Froome crashed twice on non-cobbled sections.

It ain't rocket science. Anyone who complains about it wasn't prepared. Simple as that.

[jr59]

I sure am seeing a fair amount of crashing today, with no cobbles!

Maybe they are still thinking about the cobbles?:roll eyes: Or not....

Maybe the rain had much more to do with the wrecks of yesterday.

My vote is already in, bring back more stages that allow more well rounded riders a chance to place well over all in the race. Isn't it suppose to be about the best rider and not just the best climber?

[benb]

I keep seeing/recalling that these guys ride about 25k km/miles per year.. at that rate they should have enough time to come to be able to deal with any circumstances.

This was the one of the first "Week 1" stages in a long time that I cared about. The formula has become quite broken.

I think Lance started this whole hyper specialized thing, or at least brought it to a new level, but I hate it. (There was a difference as well though in that he was never as fragile as the guys who have modeled themselves in his image) The race is boring as hell to me when the whole thing is decided by power/mass on a couple mountain stages. The winner is "General Classification", not "King of the Mountains", so the race should be general IMO... (I say that despite loving climbing & watching mountain racing)

My wishlist:
- Ban the radios
- Ban the team cars for support! Riders have to fix their bikes themselves like in MTB... The Tour was like this for decades and it worked fine.
- Include some cobbles and dirt roads
- Maybe even make some requirement of "must race X races/year to come to the grand tour"
- If at all possible mix up the mountains/climbing into all 3 weeks.
- Bring back TTT, that was always a ton of fun to watch.

Some of these items to me would reduce the effectiveness of doping as well IMO.. EPO, etc.. does not have nearly as much effect on bike handling, ability to ride cobbles, dirt, etc.. as it does on pure smooth road climbing.

If they made some or all of these changes I would probably be riveted to the TdF again.

Some of my best memories and most exciting times watching in the past 20 years have been the technical moments.. Lance beating Ullrich in TTs when Ullrich crashed in the rain. Lance going MTBing to avoid Beloki crashing on a descent, etc.. to me that is actually Lance's true legacy. He was much more well rounded than Froome is.

This would change the face of what race bikes look like too after a few years, and for the better for real world use IMO.

[Rada]

I am going to disagree.

Eddy Merckx won at Paris Roubaix because he was Eddy Merckx, but the fact is that cycling today is quite specialized. Classics riders and grand tour riders are pretty different in build, and the GT riders have zero cobbles experience. They won't get cobblestones experience, whether we want them to or not - if you were a classics specialist, would you want a bunch of skinny climbers crowding into the fields at Flanders and Roubaix?

For those of you who are asking the GT riders to htfu, consider that the GTs are 20 stages with lots of mountains. That is a lot of htfu-ing already.

If you really want cobbles in the Tour, then why shouldn't we add some mountains to P-R? After all, the classics riders are also a pretty specialized bunch.

PS: IMO, UNNECESSARILY adding risk to a race is stupid. Putting that many pave sectors in a race that is filled with GT contenders is unnecessary risk.

You're just arguing for the status quo. Where is it written that the GC has to be skinny guys who climb mountains.

[jr59]

I have a question for those old enough to remember.

When did the tour turn into just a climbing event?

I think it started to change during the 5 str wins by the big Mig, Miguel Indurain.

It's at best a guess, and I do not think it was a planed change, yet it did work out to be what we see now. It's just a climber's event. That to me is not the best way to decide the best rider. I thought that was for the polk a dot jersey.

[malcolm]

I have a question for those old enough to remember.

When did the tour turn into just a climbing event?

I think it started to change during the 5 str wins by the big Mig, Miguel Indurain.

It's at best a guess, and I do not think it was a planed change, yet it did work out to be what we see now. It's just a climber's event. That to me is not the best way to decide the best rider. I thought that was for the polk a dot jersey.

It's been a lot about climbing forever. Indurain wasn't a pure climber but he could hang with the front group then kill them in the TT. Sorta like Cadel but just much better at it.

[OtayBW]

The cobbles just aren't my cup-of-tea. Of course, I'd rather watch a good boxing match than some Ultimate Fighter (or whatever they call it...) bludgeoning....but that's just me. :rolleyes:

[firerescuefin]

I am going to disagree.

Eddy Merckx won at Paris Roubaix because he was Eddy Merckx, but the fact is that cycling today is quite specialized. Classics riders and grand tour riders are pretty different in build, and the GT riders have zero cobbles experience. They won't get cobblestones experience, whether we want them to or not - if you were a classics specialist, would you want a bunch of skinny climbers crowding into the fields at Flanders and Roubaix?

For those of you who are asking the GT riders to htfu, consider that the GTs are 20 stages with lots of mountains. That is a lot of htfu-ing already.

If you really want cobbles in the Tour, then why shouldn't we add some mountains to P-R? After all, the classics riders are also a pretty specialized bunch.

PS: IMO, UNNECESSARILY adding risk to a race is stupid. Putting that many pave sectors in a race that is filled with GT contenders is unnecessary risk.

I'd argue that Classics riders are the least specialized and overall the best true bike handler/racers in the world. If you can perform in the Italian, Belgian and Ardennes classics, you check off nearly all of the boxes. Sustained Watts per Kilo on a grade, should not be the only component to decide a Grand Tour champion, and that's the way it's going (and you're promoting). As a cyclist, fan, and spectator, I don't think thats a good model for selecting a champion or designing an entire GT race.

I'd like to see the cobbles in every year. I (like bluesea and others) don't like the one-off every 3 or 4 years, but if you want to win it and its in the mix, you need to get your ···· together. If you lose the tour because you and your team can't figure out how to get you across 10 miles of cobbles ahead of the other Grand Tour Contenders (note I didn't add the classic guys, because they're not a threat to GC anyway)....that's a YOU problem. Nibali was pretty fortunate yesterday. He almost went down with a teammate, had no mechanicals, and rode a great race. He almost took the stage and no one labels him as a "Classics" rider. Contador couldn't get into his 2 smallest cogs and got dropped and Talansky and TJ were a mistake away from being there as well. That's called life. Everyone knew that was a possibility yesterday and Nibali was able to capitalize. Good for him.

[fiamme red]

I have a question for those old enough to remember.

When did the tour turn into just a climbing event?

I think it started to change during the 5 str wins by the big Mig, Miguel Indurain.

It's at best a guess, and I do not think it was a planed change, yet it did work out to be what we see now. It's just a climber's event. That to me is not the best way to decide the best rider. I thought that was for the polk a dot jersey.I don't see that it's more of a climber's event now than thirty years ago.

[fiamme red]

I think Lance started this whole hyper specialized thing, or at least brought it to a new level, but I hate it. (There was a difference as well though in that he was never as fragile as the guys who have modeled themselves in his image)Lance at his peak would never have crashed on a stage like yesterday's. He was a very good bike handler and would have scouted the stage in advance, so that he'd know what to expect.

[firerescuefin]

I don't see that it's more of a climber's event now than thirty years ago.

I don't think 30 years ago, yesterdays stage would have received the outrage from so many of the contenders, which I think was thought behind JR's post.

[benb]

Lance at his peak would never have crashed on a stage like yesterday's. He was a very good bike handler and would have scouted the stage in advance, so that he'd know what to expect.

Yes I mentioned that later in the post. He was a great bike handler and there were lots of exciting moments where that helped him, he never would have "won" 7 times without that skill.

What I meant is he really accelerated the whole "focus the whole season on the TdF" thing from my perspective.

[cfox]

Lance at his peak would never have crashed on a stage like yesterday's. He was a very good bike handler and would have scouted the stage in advance, so that he'd know what to expect.

Lance had a terrible day on the cobbles in the 2010 tour.

[Md3000]

Specialism for the Grand Tours has been around for years, not just Lance or Indurain but Fignon or LeMond also never made huge impact outside of the Tours. When Indurain won on TT skill and hanging on in the climbs, people were mad that a true climber could never win! It never ends really.. But I agree at least Indurain and Lance were good at more than just a single biking skill.

[fiamme red]

Lance had a terrible day on the cobbles in the 2010 tour.True, but by then he was past his prime.

[firerescuefin]

True, but by then he was past his prime.

....and being a great rider does not keep the law of averages from ever finding you. That day it was dry, greasy, and windy. I remember that being a particularly brutal stage.

[harryblack]

True, but by then he was past his prime.

exactly & whatever else one thinks of Armstrong etc, you can't that stage 9 2003 TdF move after Beloki's crash away from him-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr89ku-K2WU

[merlinmurph]

Yes, Absolutely.

What some people call "risk", I call "strategy". You manage the risk and form a strategy. The cobbles add something else to think about. I like it.

The whining reminds of when XC mt bikers started whining about courses being too technical. Mt. Snow may have even been one of the courses that some racers complained about. What??? This is a mt bike course, it's supposed to have some sketchy sections.

[FlashUNC]

Specialism for the Grand Tours has been around for years, not just Lance or Indurain but Fignon or LeMond also never made huge impact outside of the Tours. When Indurain won on TT skill and hanging on in the climbs, people were mad that a true climber could never win! It never ends really.. But I agree at least Indurain and Lance were good at more than just a single biking skill.

I'm guessing you never watched Lemond at the 1983 and 1989 World Championships, or the Top Tens and Podiums at LBL, Milan-San Remo and Paris-Roubaix. Heck, Duclos-Lasalle doesn't win the 92 Roubaix without LeMond. Without getting shot, who knows what LeMond accomplishes in those lost years.

Meanwhile, Fignon won Fleche-Wallone and Milan SanRemo and was always in the mix for hillier races.

To say those guys never made an impact outside the Tour is ridiculous.

[CunegoFan]

True, but by then he was past his prime.

What does that have anything to do with what happened to him in 2010? He did a lot of mountain biking after he retired in 2005. He was more prepared than he would have been before.

[pdmtong]

I bet Nibali loves the cobbles. He did more than defend the jersey for another day, he seized the moment to honor the jersey and put time into others. The stage became opportunity taken. so all the talk about scary scary for GC riders becomes what you make of it.

I am in the all around rider camp. Don't have to have the cobbles every year, but keep it part of the race.

Contador was at the rear while Nibali was in the front of the second secteur.
Reminded me of the year of P-R where fabian rode off the front when he observed boonen eating in the rear; nibali saw the same and went. why wasn't contador ridding closer to the yellow jersey so he could have a better chance of marking that move?

[firerescuefin]

I bet Nibali loves the cobbles. He did more than defend the jersey for another day, he seized the moment to honor the jersey and put time into others. The stage became opportunity taken. so all the talk about scary scary for GC riders becomes what you make of it.

I am in the all around rider camp. Don't have to have the cobbles every year, but keep it part of the race.

Contador was at the rear while Nibali was in the front of the second secteur.
Reminded me of the year of P-R where fabian rode off the front when he observed boonen eating in the rear; nibali saw the same and went. why wasn't contador ridding closer to the yellow jersey so he could have a better chance of marking that move?

Couldn't shift (mechanical issue) into smallest cogs because of mud

[pdmtong]

Couldn't shift (mechanical issue) into smallest cogs because of mud

yes, i read he could not use his small cogs. would electric have addressed this issue?

or, why not swap bikes with a team mate?

[torquer]

I don't see that it's more of a climber's event now than thirty years ago.
If anything, it's become a TTer's event, albeit TTers who can climb well enough: Indurain, Ulrich, Riis, LA, Cuddles, Wiggo & Froome. Pantani was a clear exception (Schleck, too, if you you consider him an echt winner), and Contador won both ways, but for the most part this year's expected showdown between Alberto and Froome in the long ITT on the last weekend was following the usual playbook.
Yesterday's events did a good job of tearing up that playbook, and I think that's to the Tour's benefit.

[tiretrax]

yes, i read he could not use his small cogs. would electric have addressed this issue?

or, why not swap bikes with a team mate?

Or, why not squirt your water bottle into the cassette to clear the mud? I'm surprised he didn't blame it on the Chinese beef.

The early tours did have lots of mountains and lots of flats and cobbles. It was, literally, a tour of France. There were fewer stages then because the stages were over 300k. Some stages took multiple days. The cyclists road up and descended dirt roads on mountains in the dark with candle-lit lamps illuminating their way on heavy single speed bikes while wearing heavy woolen clothing with no cushy pad in their shorts. No team cars, no aid from anyone. They didn't have sports nutrition or sleep with compression bags for their legs after a stage. They were their own mechanic.

I'll tell any current pro, to their face, to HTFU.

I grew up skiing, and we competed in some of the worst conditions imaginable. The only time a race was postponed was a downhill in foggy conditions or winds over 40 mph. If you raced late in the lineup, the course was rutted, icy, and choppy. I played soccer, too. The only time a game was postponed was if the rain was hard - to keep the field from getting messed up, not the players from freezing in it. It could be 30 degrees and snowing, and we'd still play in our shorts and short sleeved jerseys. I moved to Houston in high school, and I practiced and had track meets and tennis matches in the heat and humidity of summer and fall (spring wasn't too bad) - 90's and 100 degree days with humidity 60-100% (yeah, it would rain for a birief period, and then we'd be back at it). I hated the weather, but I competed in any type because I loved sport.

Is there anyone who competed only in favorable conditions? I want to know where that is so I can move there when I retire (unless it's in Cali - earthquakes scare the hell out of me).

[gasman]

Thinking about Contador saying he couldn't shift into his smallest cogs because of the mud doesn't make sense to me. Cross racing is nothing but a whole lotta mud at times and nobody complains about the mud getting into the cogs, building up on a brake pad syes but not the cogs. Am I missing something ?

[CunegoFan]

The early tours did have lots of mountains and lots of flats and cobbles. It was, literally, a tour of France. There were fewer stages then because the stages were over 300k. Some stages took multiple days. The cyclists road up and descended dirt roads on mountains in the dark with candle-lit lamps illuminating their way on heavy single speed bikes while wearing heavy woolen clothing with no cushy pad in their shorts. No team cars, no aid from anyone. They didn't have sports nutrition or sleep with compression bags for their legs after a stage. They were their own mechanic.


For tradition's sake, I demand we go back to this. Why should the TdF be reserved for 140 lb climbers? Those who can dash into the local blacksmith shop to repair their carbon fiber fork with duct tape and Gorilla Glue deserve their chance.

[fiamme red]

What does that have anything to do with what happened to him in 2010? He did a lot of mountain biking after he retired in 2005. He was more prepared than he would have been before.Since he wasn't in top form, he had to take more risks to stay competitive, and was thus more liable to crashing. Also, perhaps his reflexes had slowed.

[FlashUNC]

The early tours did have lots of mountains and lots of flats and cobbles. It was, literally, a tour of France. There were fewer stages then because the stages were over 300k. Some stages took multiple days. The cyclists road up and descended dirt roads on mountains in the dark with candle-lit lamps illuminating their way on heavy single speed bikes while wearing heavy woolen clothing with no cushy pad in their shorts. No team cars, no aid from anyone. They didn't have sports nutrition or sleep with compression bags for their legs after a stage. They were their own mechanic.



Desgrange also only wanted, in his ideal, only one person to finish the race annually. That is was such a difficult endeavor that everyone save the winner would quit.

And people wonder why guys have turned to doping for a century...

[tiretrax]

I'm not advocating a return to that type of race. But, the whining when conditions aren't ideal is ridiculous, especially from high paid GC guys. Also, all conditions were raced - not just smooth roads.

[Bob Ross]

I think that one thing we've seen in the last 20 years is the rise of the super specialist.

The more I think of it, the more I see ^^^this as the thing that both makes a Grand Tour "what it is" (sic) and what makes a Grand Tour kinda underwhelming.

iow, if yer gonna be a Super Specialist™, do we really need three whole weeks to sort that out? Or, conversely, if you wanna be considered The Most Badass Cyclist In The Whole Freakin' World™, three weeks of pristine pavement & idyllic weather conditions is an insult to the title; instead a Grand Tour should be

- six weeks long, and include:
- cobbles
- dirt
- a bonafide cyclocross course
- a bonafide single-track mountain bike course
- a bonafide 4-corner office park criterium
- both short and long individual time trials
- a team time trial
- both a Madison and a Team Pursuit on wooden track
- and at least one 200km day each of riding a faired recumbent, and riding a touring bike hauling a trailer loaded with 100lbs of watermelon

Now who's the best cyclist in the world, muthafukkahzzz?!?! :banana:

[Md3000]

I'm guessing you never watched Lemond at the 1983 and 1989 World Championships, or the Top Tens and Podiums at LBL, Milan-San Remo and Paris-Roubaix. Heck, Duclos-Lasalle doesn't win the 92 Roubaix without LeMond. Without getting shot, who knows what LeMond accomplishes in those lost years.

Meanwhile, Fignon won Fleche-Wallone and Milan SanRemo and was always in the mix for hillier races.

To say those guys never made an impact outside the Tour is ridiculous.

Fignon had five noteworthy wins outside the grand tours. That's not a lot. Sorry re: lemond, you're right. Anyway my point was that froome wasn't the first specialist :)

[bikinchris]

Yes. It's the Tour de France, not the Tour de France's nicest smoothest roads. Those cobbled roads belong in the Tour more than the Mall in London. Plus, this discussion wouldn't be happening if the weather wasn't so bad.

Didn't they have cobbles in the Tour just a few years ago? I seem to remember one of the Schlecks crashing out really bad.

Don't forget Bernard Hinault abandoned after cobbled crashes.

[pbarry]

I'm guessing you never watched Lemond at the 1983 and 1989 World Championships, or the Top Tens and Podiums at LBL, Milan-San Remo and Paris-Roubaix. Heck, Duclos-Lasalle doesn't win the 92 Roubaix without LeMond. Without getting shot, who knows what LeMond accomplishes in those lost years.

Meanwhile, Fignon won Fleche-Wallone and Milan SanRemo and was always in the mix for hillier races.

To say those guys never made an impact outside the Tour is ridiculous.

^^ Yep. Gets it.

LA made LeTour his primary objective, and made a science of it: Pre-riding every stage, peaking in the first week in July, avoiding dangerous Spring Classics. He approached the race season with only one goal.

A true all-rounder rides track as well..

Merckx

[cfox]

^^ Yep. Gets it.

LA made LeTour his primary objective, and made a science of it: Pre-riding every stage, peaking in the first week in July, avoiding dangerous Spring Classics. He approached the race season with only one goal.

A true all-rounder rides track as well..

Merckx

Science is right, mainly in the form of a creepy Italian doctor named after a fancy sports car. LA had the financial freedom and backing from sponsors to target a single race. Trek/oakley/nike wanted one thing: a TDF win. It was pretty hard to compete with an infrastructure set up to be so hyper-focused on one race.

[pbarry]

^^ I was trying to avoid that part of the science. You said it more articulately than I ever could have.

[CunegoFan]

Science is right, mainly in the form of a creepy Italian doctor named after a fancy sports car. LA had the financial freedom and backing from sponsors to target a single race. Trek/oakley/nike wanted one thing: a TDF win. It was pretty hard to compete with an infrastructure set up to be so hyper-focused on one race.

Sounds just like all the riders who filled out the top five or ten of the Tour.

[rab]

Armstrong used science in both good and bad ways. Obviously the doping but he also was obsessive with the intricacies of maintaining his equipment, positioning, aerodynamics etc. A percent here and there adds up.

Adding on the some of the above, I propose Ventoux is used regularly only with some switchbacks changed into CX style run-ups as well. HUPthefxxkup peloton!

Seriously, I do like the idea of adding elements which disrupt the current script of making big gains in the TT, then expanding their lead or minimizing losses in the mountains. Maybe even the playing field a bit more?

[Vamoots58]

shoulders of the best all-around rider with the most complete team in Paris. I wasn't necessarily a Nibali fan before Stage 5, certainly not rooting against him, but WOW that was an amazing all around performance by a guy that can clearly ride when the road turns upward and time trial at least well enough to be in contention. Bring back the TTT and get rid of the max time differenecs there and keep the cobbles!

[Grant McLean]

When was the last time week 1 was as exciting as this year?

How quickly they forget... last year's start in Corsica was incredible.

-g

[saab2000]

Science is right, mainly in the form of a creepy Italian doctor named after a fancy sports car. LA had the financial freedom and backing from sponsors to target a single race. Trek/oakley/nike wanted one thing: a TDF win. It was pretty hard to compete with an infrastructure set up to be so hyper-focused on one race.

While the laboratory aspect is undeniable, so is the meticulous preparation he did. He and his teams definitely reconned the mountains and time trials. There was a day not long ago when this kind of prep was unheard of in cycling.

Blame a lot of things but you can't fault LA for his meticulous preparation and readiness. Additionally, he rarely crashed. You don't win 7 TdF titles in the laboratory alone or just with injections because we can justifiably assume that many of his competitors had much the same 'medical help'. Yet they all fell by the wayside.

I'm no LA apologist but it's ignoring reality to think that he finished 1st all those years solely due to blood bag science

As to cobbled roads, yes. They are the same for everyone, just like the mountains and crosswinds and time trials.

[FlashUNC]

While the laboratory aspect is undeniable, so is the meticulous preparation he did. He and his teams definitely reconned the mountains and time trials. There was a day not long ago when this kind of prep was unheard of in cycling.

Blame a lot of things but you can't fault LA for his meticulous preparation and readiness. Additionally, he rarely crashed. You don't win 7 TdF titles in the laboratory alone or just with injections because we can justifiably assume that many of his competitors had much the same 'medical help'. Yet they all fell by the wayside.

I'm no LA apologist but it's ignoring reality to think that he finished 1st all those years solely due to blood bag science

As to cobbled roads, yes. They are the same for everyone, just like the mountains and crosswinds and time trials.

To your point, you can argue Lance doesn't win that first tour if he doesn't avoid that crash on the Passage Du Gois on Stage 2. That was the "this stage is too ridiculous" complaint du jour back then.

http://www.nbcsports.com/files/nbcsports/styles/gallery_slide/public/migrated_images/080627_1999_2ndstage_h.jpg?itok=CQShlRI5

[saab2000]

To your point, you can argue Lance doesn't win that first tour if he doesn't avoid that crash on the Passage Du Gois on Stage 2. That was the "this stage is too ridiculous" complaint du jour back then.

http://www.nbcsports.com/files/nbcsports/styles/gallery_slide/public/migrated_images/080627_1999_2ndstage_h.jpg?itok=CQShlRI5

IIRC, he and his team knew of the dangers and went to the front to lead across that section of road. He stayed on the bike pretty well throughout most of his career, which is no coincidence and totally unrelated to any doping.

But yeah, that was a gruesome stage...... Spectacle and interesting but not great from a sporting standpoint. I remember it too.

[FlashUNC]

Credit where credit's due. He realized the road that was underwater for half the day would probably be the place a bad crash would happen. Alex Zulle didn't.

But the Passage was far more a case of stunt casting than the cobbles in stage 5. Can't imagine how slick that thing was.

[Waldo]

Specialism for the Grand Tours has been around for years, not just Lance or Indurain but Fignon or LeMond also never made huge impact outside of the Tours. When Indurain won on TT skill and hanging on in the climbs, people were mad that a true climber could never win! It never ends really.. But I agree at least Indurain and Lance were good at more than just a single biking skill.

Fignon won the Giro, Milan-San Remo twice, Fleche, Criterium International and many other races throughout his career. He was 8 seconds from pulling off a Giro-Tour double in '89. He was not a TdF specialist by any stretch of imagination. Look at his palmares (http://www.memoire-du-cyclisme.eu/palmares/fignon_laurent.php) and you'll see that he raced and got results in a crapload of races. Lemond began the TdF specialization. I believe there are quotes from him on this subject, but at least he started many other race days. It was LA who began the whole hide-from-race-day-drug-testers thing except a few designated Tour prep events thing.

[Waldo]

If anything, it's become a TTer's event, albeit TTers who can climb well enough: Indurain, Ulrich, Riis, LA, Cuddles, Wiggo & Froome. Pantani was a clear exception (Schleck, too, if you you consider him an echt winner), and Contador won both ways, but for the most part this year's expected showdown between Alberto and Froome in the long ITT on the last weekend was following the usual playbook.
Yesterday's events did a good job of tearing up that playbook, and I think that's to the Tour's benefit.

Or not: Delgado, Sastre, Contador (MUCH more of a climber than TTist), Pantani. Wiggo and Froome dieted themselves so thin that they looked more like climbers that TTists. Riis won with a 60% hematocrit. You can also look at it as heavier guys' (LA, Riis, Ullrich, Indurain (yes, him too), et al.) doping to a great extent neutralized pure climbers' advantage in the mountains and they killed them in TTs. Which makes Cuddles the exception. Does Quintana's TT prowess make him a time trialer rather than a climber?

[Frankwurst]

WWES
(What would Eddy say?)

Probably not a damn thing. He'd race.:beer:

[thwart]

OK, it's time...