Horrific Crash at Manhattan Beach GP - Bad USAC Officiating in SoCal?

[beeatnik]

https://www.giveforward.com/fundraiser/9d15/ronnie-toth-s-recovery-fund

Ronnie is a friend, please keep him in your prayers.

Cycling In The South Bay putting USAC officials on blast. Seth, the blog author, is also a friend.

http://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/pay-up-and-please-go-die/

ShovelHD, would love your take on the above. Limited facts and all.

[gavingould]

interesting. wouldn't USAC insurance cover his injuries?

[ptourkin]

http://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/pay-up-and-please-go-die/

The other incident they are discussing is Chris "Cono" Contreras of Velo Pasadena, which is apparently still in litigation.

[Admiral Ackbar]

interesting. wouldn't USAC insurance cover his injuries?

I've always understood that USAC races are "race at your own risk" i.e. "it aint our problem if you get broke off"

[Uncle Jam's Army]

interesting. wouldn't USAC insurance cover his injuries?

USAC insurance covers up to $25K, which is good, but nowhere near enough to cover my friend's shattered hip and pelvic bone. He's at $75K and rising (no, he doesn't have his own insurance :confused:).

[pavel]

USAC insurance covers up to $25K, which is good, but nowhere near enough to cover my friend's shattered hip and pelvic bone. He's at $75K and rising (no, he doesn't have his own insurance :confused:).

"Ronnie is currently in the ICU from an accident while ridding his bike and will require many special surgeries to correct extensive facial and structural injuries. These surgeries may not be covered by his insurance and will run tens of thousands of dollars. "


So does he or does he not have his own health insurance?

[christian]

That South Bay cycling blog is the dumbest rant site on the internet. I assume anything on there is an exaggeration, error, or blatant lie.

Also, I'm all for single-payer healthcare, but if he was racing 1/2/3 without health insurance, Jesus, really? All racing insurance is capped and supplementary to your own coverage. Frankly, USCF should make proving you have insurance coverage mandatory for getting a license.

[pavel]

This is why i ask whether he had insurance or not. The crowdfunding site makes it sound like he is underinsured, which is something I can understand.

But the idea that a person with 1.5 years of race experience entered a pro/1/2 crit field and crashed himself out... should be blamed on anyone other than that person... is insane to me.

And the idea that a person with 1.5 years of race experience entered a pro/1/2 crit feild WITHOUT health insurance seems incredibly irresponsible and selfish, if not downright stupid - and now others are being called upon to step in and claim responsibility for his bills. How does that not anger you on an intellectual level?

There seems to be something profoundly wrong here.

[beeatnik]

This is why i ask whether he had insurance or not. The crowdfunding site makes it sound like he is underinsured, which is something I can understand.

But the idea that a person with 1.5 years of race experience entered a pro/1/2 crit field and crashed himself out... should be blamed on anyone other than that person... is insane to me.



There seems to be something profoundly wrong here.

Many would be underinsured for the type of injuries he suffered. His wife is a nurse and may have a sense of how catastrophically expensive his care will be.

[pavel]

So did he have insurance or no?

[beeatnik]

So did he have insurance or no?

When his nose is reattached and he can speak, I'll ask him.

[ultraman6970]

Sorry for this question ok? No bad intentions just want to know...

The articles say face surgery and stuff... did he had multiple face fractures??? Jaw?? Nose broken??

[hida yanra]

I'm confident that USAC insurance has paid out to someone, somewhere- but over a decade of racing I've yet to meet anyone or hear of anyone that got paid by them.

The closest I've gotten is "a guy on the internet knows someone", so ... there's that.

Also, by its terms, USAC insurance pays last and has a tiny cap- meaning (as I read it) that anyone with any insurance of any sort won't be able to get anything out of them.

Could be wrong on the fine print of the race insurance policy, but I personally know many people who have tried to get USAC to pay and none that have succeeded.

[shovelhd]

First, I am sorry for your friend. I wish him the best with his recovery.

USAC insurance is supplementary insurance. Anyone that races at any level that depends on USAC insurance for health care in a race is taking a huge risk. Read the waiver. Read the disclaimers. If you sign without doing that you are taking your own risk. USAC has plenty of money and plenty of lawyers. Suing USAC is not a winning proposition.

Now about the race. All I know is what was written in the pv cycling rant and what I saw watching Rasaan Bahati's video. It looked to me like every NCC race I've ever done. Fast, aggressive, and dominated by UCI teams. Lots of pushing, shoving, bumping, and chopping. Nothing unusual there. The sprint was out of a wide turn with one or two good lines but it was plenty wide enough. I don't get the beef about the barriers. Those barriers are used everywhere in this country for criterium racing. They are not designed to protect riders from injury. They are designed to keep spectators off the course. You want padding on them? Are you willing to pay $100 entry fees? There's no need for padding as long as you stay off of the barriers.

I'm not sure what the issue is with "USAC Officials". What is it specifically that you have a problem with?

I will tell you that any rider that goes from Cat5 to Cat1 in one season is a suspect rider in my eyes. Until I ride with them or speak to those I trust that have ridden with them, I don't trust their bike handling skills. I'm all for rider education, and take part in it myself. I wish that USAC made it a priority, but that is not USAC's mission. They exist as the American arm of the UCI, which is associated with the IOC. Their mission is to develop riders for the world stage. They pick and choose their devo riders and let everyone else fend for themselves. That's the system as it exists today. I have significant issues with this system, and I do what I can to try and change it. What have you done to change it? Boycotting races does nothing as USAC runs most of the racing in this country. Writing blog posts isn't accomplishing anything. Do something constructive. Talk to your LA coordinator. Attend the offseason meetings. The administration in Colorado is approachable, get in touch with them with a coherent, reasonable suggested course of action. Start the dialog.

[pbarry]

First, I am sorry for your friend. I wish him the best with his recovery.

USAC insurance is supplementary insurance. Anyone that races at any level that depends on USAC insurance for health care in a race is taking a huge risk. Read the waiver. Read the disclaimers. If you sign without doing that you are taking your own risk. USAC has plenty of money and plenty of lawyers. Suing USAC is not a winning proposition.

Now about the race. All I know is what was written in the pv cycling rant and what I saw watching Rasaan Bahati's video. It looked to me like every NCC race I've ever done. Fast, aggressive, and dominated by UCI teams. Lots of pushing, shoving, bumping, and chopping. Nothing unusual there. The sprint was out of a wide turn with one or two good lines but it was plenty wide enough. I don't get the beef about the barriers. Those barriers are used everywhere in this country for criterium racing. They are not designed to protect riders from injury. They are designed to keep spectators off the course. You want padding on them? Are you willing to pay $100 entry fees? There's no need for padding as long as you stay off of the barriers.

I'm not sure what the issue is with "USAC Officials". What is it specifically that you have a problem with?

I will tell you that any rider that goes from Cat5 to Cat1 in one season is a suspect rider in my eyes. Until I ride with them or speak to those I trust that have ridden with them, I don't trust their bike handling skills. I'm all for rider education, and take part in it myself. I wish that USAC made it a priority, but that is not USAC's mission. They exist as the American arm of the UCI, which is associated with the IOC. Their mission is to develop riders for the world stage. They pick and choose their devo riders and let everyone else fend for themselves. That's the system as it exists today. I have significant issues with this system, and I do what I can to try and change it. What have you done to change it? Boycotting races does nothing as USAC runs most of the racing in this country. Writing blog posts isn't accomplishing anything. Do something constructive. Talk to your LA coordinator. Attend the offseason meetings. The administration in Colorado is approachable, get in touch with them with a coherent, reasonable suggested course of action. Start the dialog.

Thank you for the articulate and reasoned response. Cheers

[bcroslin]

I don't get it. How was he allowed to cat up from a 5 to a 1 in 18 months? I didn't know that was something you could do.

[christian]

I don't get it. How was he allowed to cat up from a 5 to a 1 in 18 months? I didn't know that was something you could do.5 wins in road races with 50 starters or more and it's mandatory. There are lots of combinations which would get you 50 pts and a mandatory upgrade, but that's the simplest one.

[shovelhd]

Absolutely. It is easier in some parts of the country than others. It's all about the points. If one picks and chooses the right races, you can do it in a year. Stage races are popular for this reason alone.

[carpediemracing]

First, I also hope the best for the rider who was injured.

Although not a 1 a local rider went from Cat 5 in March/April to getting 2nd in a Pro/1/2 race in August, so in 5 months of 2010. He did it all in crits, earning his upgrades the hard way. He's a super savvy rider, an extremely good bike handler, etc. When I raced against him (he won every Cat 3 race that we both entered) I just assumed he'd been riding for years. He was smooth, fluent, and exuded proficiency. I never saw him make a mistake, and I'm pretty picky about that kind of stuff. Ends up he started riding the prior fall. I couldn't believe it. He recently did really well in the NE Crit Week, a series of P12 crits in the area.

The blog rant seemed a bit odd - is it saying the rider crashed himself out while sprinting by himself? If that's the case then being a 1 or a 2 or a 3 wouldn't have made a difference. He could have been winning a Cat 3 race solo and still made the same error. Of course anyone can make those errors, even a top pro - just think of the two infamous crashes in the Tour where sprinters sprinted directly into stationary objects that were very visible (policeman and the barriers). Those crashes were the result of rider error, not much else. Sure people blamed the policeman for taking pictures but the rider wasn't even looking where he was going. In more related stuff in 2010 there was a race where the sprinter leading out the field crashed himself out, causing massive mayhem behind. The sprinter is a former (multiple time?) Masters National Crit Champ, ex-Olympian for a country other than the US, and he was probably 50 feet clear of everyone else when he crashed himself out. It would have been fine except his bike bounced around a lot and took out a bunch of people, which then caused others to crash.

I haven't seen the video of the SoCal race or anything but those were my first thoughts.

Shovel and I know each other and we both feel strongly about rider education. Racing skills get forgotten in the wattage/interval/training stuff everyone things about. It's tough because right now there is no test/check on rider skills. Upgrades are mainly done through results. How they earned the result is not really a question. I am trying to change it from the bottom up but it's definitely an uphill battle. Most new/future racers are more concerned with Ultegra vs DA or SRAM vs Shimano or which carbon wheels to buy. The reality is that a 105 bike that fits and has good wheels will bring anyone to 90% of their ultimate potential. Learning how to race is the key to knowing how to race.

Long time promoter and racer here.

[ShaneAtSilca]

Hope the rider heals well. Don't have much else to say except:

From the blog post

a battleground environment in which the most aggressive racers throw elbows, dive-bomb turns, brake-check, hip-check, and engage in a whole host of ····ty maneuvers that have nothing to do with bike racing and everything to do with risky, violent intimidation. The worst offenders are well known, both the masters and the pros.

However, this isn’t the fault of the racers...

I get uncomfortable with this kind of reasoning.

Moreover, the nature of his crash — a single rider sprinting, perhaps with his head down, in a straight line, into side barriers, with no other riders hitting him seems to indicate that his bike handling skills were not on a par with his Cat 1 license.
This seems self evident. Can't imagine the scenario where an official recognizes someones inability to sprint safely on their own and pulls them from a race over it though.

[elcolombiano]

I was at the MBGP last Sunday with my family. I happened to be at turn number 4 when the crash happened. It seemed to be about 300 feet or so beyond that turn. The sound of Ronnie hitting the orange rails was horrific. I heard the crash, saw a bike and a rider go down and then watched groups of sprinters pass around him. The ambulance personnel by the fire department were literally asleep as they did not even hear the crash. There was a chain of people yelling "medical" to get the ambulance crew in motion. I seemed like a minute before the ambulance even started its engine and headed out towards the crash scene. I continued walking towards my parked car many blocks away with my family. While walking we latter saw the ambulance pass us with the sirens continually sounding and confirmed this was a serious accident. I feel bad for my friend whom I ride with who was the head guy responsible for all the barriers and maintaing safety at the MBGP. I don't know what to say if I see him at one of my rides this weekend. I think I am not going to say anything.