Building Forward Momentum After Hill Apex

[Splash]

I need your tips/advice on building and rolling momentum after reaching Hill Apex.

When I reach all hill apexes, I always slow down, lose energy and ultimately lose any forward rolling momentum I built up well during the preceding climb. This is a weakness of mine and I need to better understand how I can stop losing the forward rolling momentum after I reach Hill Apexes.

From 6:17 of this Youtube link explains exactly what I go through.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVvr2ihAfAk

The guy talks about increasing leg speed/cadence (by at least 8-10 RPM) first before downshifting into a harder gear - after reaching the hill apex.

Your thoughts, tips and recommendations?


Splash

[Joachim]

Don't slow down, you should time your efforts better so that when you get to the top, you can keep going.

[Splash]

that's just it. i don't slow down during climbs. i only slow down because i cannot sustain the same intensity at this point - as i did with the preceding climb - after i reach the hill apex.

splash

[oldpotatoe]

that's just it. i don't slow down during climbs. i only slow down because i cannot sustain the same intensity at this point - as i did with the preceding climb - after i reach the hill apex.

splash

Sounds like a problem for Mr TiDesigns..

[Ti Designs]

Sounds like a problem for Mr TiDesigns..

I put my ex-girlfriend on the back of my tandem, that's not one of the problems we have. Just yesterday we crested the hill and had little problem catching the guys in front of us - they were on motorcycles...


I watched the video, why do so many guys making instructional videos on climbing look like they're linemen in the NFL??? Those who can't do...


The way I see it, the problem is a lack of understanding and/or practice of the pedal stroke. You think there's one way to pedal a bike, if you want to go faster you do it harder, if you want to (Read: need to) recover you pedal softer. And somehow in there you think that your muscles know when to fire and when not to.

Let's look at the two large muscle groups that do most of the work. Most people overuse their quads because they learned how to walk a long time ago and that's the muscle your brain says pushes down on the ground. That may be true when you're standing, but it doesn't work when you're in the saddle. If you're extending from the knee when the pedal is at 3:00, the pedal is going down, you're pushing forward. What's more, you're probably using your quads from 11:00 all the way down to 6:00, and muscles don't get blood flow under tension, so for most of that you're both doing very little useful work and starving your muscles at the same time. You would be much better off breaking the pedal stroke down into smaller segments where each muscle is effective, and teaching your body how to use one (sometimes two) muscle in just that zone. For example, quads can only push forward, so they're only effective from 11:00 to 2:00. Glutes can only push down, so think 1:30 to 4:30, perhaps 1:00 to 4:00 if you run a lot of setback in your position. The real trick isn't getting the muscles to fire, it's getting them to relax at the right point in the pedal stroke.

If you learn how to use each muscle, you also learn that the two large muscle groups are very different. The glutes are huge, wide and powerful, and they leverage your body weight on the pedals They can generate torque, but gravity is a constant, so they're never going to generate much leg speed - at least not on this planet. Quads push the pedal out of the way going over the top - there's almost no limit to how fast this can happen. The quads are a longer, much thinner muscle group so they can't handle the torque output that the glutes can.

So, let's put this into the context of the OP's question - how does one generate speed over the top of a hill. Hills mean torque, torque means adding the momentum of upper body movement with the strength of the glutes. Smaller muscle groups have very little to add here, learn how to keep them relaxed. Going over the top of the hill means you're still in your climbing gear, but the resistance has eased. It's just shifted from the need for torque to the need for leg speed. Switch to the other large muscle group, which hasn't been working going up the hill, and push the pedals forward over the top.

Sadly, this learning is best done in the winter when spending time sitting on a trainer is almost acceptable... By the fall I'll have my pedal stroke class on video.

[1centaur]

One thing you can do in the summer is do twenty seconds of glute pushing and then 20 seconds of quad "kicking" on the flat, and repeat, until you get used to that transition.

Then when getting to the crest and feeling the slope stop requiring the glutes that transition will come more naturally.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Another excellent explanation from Ti Designs. Someone needs to compile his posts into a book on cycling mechanics.


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[OtayBW]

The real trick isn't getting the muscles to fire, it's getting them to relax at the right point in the pedal stroke.
This rings true for me - especially having just come in from today's ride with a lot of climbing and sustained effort. I don't know 11:00, 3:00, or whatever - it's all kind of intuitive - but I can feel what you're saying.

[93legendti]

Another excellent explanation from Ti Designs. Someone needs to compile his posts into a book on cycling mechanics.


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+1.

Today, I climbed Mt. Hermon, in the Golan Heights. Even with a decent warmup, which isn't possible because the town below, Majdal Shams, is bustling and the streets are steeper than the climb, it would be a brute of a climb. The steepest parts always seem to face into the wind. Ti Designs kept popping in my head and I made sure to concentrate on my glutes and quads firing at the appropriate times.

[Splash]

TiDesigns.

thank you in taking the time to respond. Biomechanics is a wonderful science!

The information you posted was invaluable, but i need some further clarification if it fully answered my OP....

My OP was to seek advice on building and rolling momentum after reaching Hill Apex, and not before or on (over) the apex.

i notice you referred to my OP as to how does one generate speed over the top of a hill.

Just wanting to check-in to ensure that your reference to over the top of a hill means the same as building momentum after reaching the hill apex?

if not, I would be interested to read any further input you may have....?

Do i need to increase my RPM after I pass the hill apex before i shift down into a harder gear?

Is there anything in that youtube video that is incorrect regarding this topic?


splash

[macaroon]

It's a mental thing. You need to pedal over the top of the climb rather than easing off when you see the top.

[aramis]

It's a mental thing. You need to pedal over the top of the climb rather than easing off when you see the top.

When I first started riding I had the same problem of not having momentum over the crests. It was because I was pushing too hard (or didn't have the fitness) and/ or mentally stopped pushing at the top. It's better to ease up before the summit and push harder up and over. If you have a power meter just sustain the same power over the top which will usually involve dropping quite a few gears. It's funny, if you look at your power meter going over a crest and you don't think about it you go from say 250-300 watts to 100 watts. It not like if the hill was 100 meters longer you would drop that much power, it's mostly mental ( oh I am done, don't need to push anymore!).

[christian]

It's just mental; you just want to spin the same cadence as when climbing and if you're in the same gear, it basically means you fail to put any power to the ground and immediately slow down.

Shift to a harder gear, pick a point 200 meters from the top and keep the power on until you get there.

[Joachim]

I suggest buying a pair of climbing wheels, maybe Lightweight Ventoux. Those will definitely help.

[shovelhd]

Ti may disagree but I think it's best to keep the power on and increase cadence as you crest. Shift up only once you hit what would be a high cadence for you.

[carpediemracing]

To increase speed over the top means you need to continue the effort you've been maintaining. Increasing it more than that usually means going way anaerobic. Discounting the anaerobic bit (which is actually what I do in very jumpy type groups since it seems to work best for me) you want to keep your body going in the "same way" as you climb. Your body won't know you're not climbing anymore, basically.

Your pedaling is related to your heart rate. Spin up really fast and your heart rate will follow. When I climb I am usually pretty close to my limit. As the grade eases if I don't shift up and keep my cadence within, say, 4-6 rpm, my heart rate skyrockets. Most people (me included) think "Hey, I timed my effort perfectly". The reality is that you blew yourself up by changing your rhythm - probably by pedaling faster - even if you reduced power.

So for me I keep the "pressure" the same, keep cadence the same, and shift up as I crest. It's actually a lot of shifting in a short amount of the, 3-4-5 shifts ever 2-4 rpm increase (this keeps cadence within a 4-5 rpm window).

By keeping the effort the same for the body the load doesn't change. You keep the power output level, you keep your body working at the same rate, and you will increase speed naturally as you encounter less gradient.

I found this worked when I was at my limit staying with a fast/steady group (Gimbels ride and I was surrounded by much better riders than me).

However the one drawback is that you're in a "hill situation" in terms of cadence and snap/acceleration. It's hard to accelerate when you're more bogged down than not. For me if someone made moves I couldn't respond when using this technique, I just plugged along and hoped someone would bridge the gap.

If you're not at your limit at the top then you can leverage that to hurt those that are.

If I go deep into the red I could follow the moves but I had to increase cadence and effort and I was redlined for a good few minutes trying to recover from the short-ish effort at the top of the hill. That's the "anaerobic" scenario I describe at the beginning, and it's usually what I do when I'm in trouble. I have a limited number of these efforts and then I'm done.

[Black Dog]

Just tell yourself that the hill ends 25 meters after the apex. You will be flying over the apex. Seriously. Your problem is not physical it is psycological and this is a common problem.

[Splash]

interesting thoughts - thanks for sharing!

WRT link shown in OP, do you agree with what the guy stated about increasing cadence by about 8-10 RPM before shifting down to a harder gear - after cresting?


Splash

[christian]

Sure, but that'll naturally happen if you don't ease up - grade relaxes and power stays constant, angular velocity of pedals goes up. He key is to keep the power on. I'm not much of a powermeter proponent, but this is one area where it helps. If you see the power drop from 260 to 160 watts at the top, it's irrefutable proof you've eased off.

[Splash]

Thanks Christain.

I am not at the PowerMeter stage either and do not have one fitted.

What would be the next best measure as an alternative (to power for detecting rate of power output to the pedals) on my Sigma Rox 9.1?

SPlash

[christian]

The bottoms of your feet is the next best alternative. If the pressure on the bottom of your feet eases off, you're not pedaling with as much force.

[Joachim]

Splash, sorry man, but you are WAY overthinking this. You need to pedal, ride and stop trying to over analyze all the minutiae when it comes to cycling. Ride the hills, pedal harder as you go over the top, change to a harder gear and pedal more. It's really not that difficult and doesn't need three pages.

[OtayBW]

Splash, sorry man, but you are WAY overthinking this. You need to pedal, ride and stop trying to over analyze all the minutiae when it comes to cycling. Ride the hills, pedal harder as you go over the top, change to a harder gear and pedal more. It's really not that difficult and doesn't need three pages.
+1.
However, in fairness, there is probably more information come out of this thread than the one trying to identify optimal sunglasses to buy/wear for rides >100 km....:rolleyes:

[jamesutiopia]

Just tell yourself that the hill ends 25 meters after the apex. You will be flying over the apex. Seriously. Your problem is not physical it is psycological and this is a common problem.

+1. If you can't raise your cadence, shift up to maintain your power output for another few seconds.

It's all mental

[fiataccompli]

I don't know if this is sound training advice or not (and I don't intend it to be...it's only my experience), but I noticed an evolution in my own riding (prior to more formalized training & racing) where originally I would give any climb all i had and then almost coast over the crest as a reward. From there, I evolved to having a resolve to never decrease speed climbing a hill and usually to have a slight increase through the crest & over the brow. Both of these were really solo ride approaches (perhaps, not terribly social riding habits) and more mentally driven than anything else. Not saying that I always succeeded in holding a speed or even accelerating, but it was a goal and probably helped me find a pace that worked, to get into a groove on slightly longer climbs and all that. Since then I've started using a power meter and so it's different & certainly more objectively measured. I think the evolution started one day when i was riding with a friend who observed my approach to hills and asked me why a strong climber was giving away the crest of the hill like I was...haha! and so, the competitive streak was sparked!