Merckx Experts... What do we have here?

[damocles]

I know there's a number of your forumites that have forgotten more about Merckx's than I will ever know... I'm hoping some of you may shed some light on a recent purchase of mine. I've been longing for a 7-Eleven or Motorola Merckx for sometime, and recently pulled the trigger on one that popped up in my size on eBay. It arrived today from the Netherlands... The seller listed it as mint, and I'm very pleased with the condition. Just a few nicks and chips, but really very fresh otherwise.

The serial numbers are perplexing to me though. I've visited the info on http://www.cadre.org/Merckx/

Left side shows:

4X
A

Right side shows:

A
7575

Questions...


Left side makes sense... A 54cm Corsa Extra. Right side would date this frame back to 1986 or 1987 though, well before a Motorola paint scheme could have existed. I would love to know the approximate age of this frame.
I don't know how I didn't notice it until now, but I also only have water bottle mounts on the down tube. No 2nd mount on the seat tube. Has anyone seen a Merckx before with just the single mount?
I'm missing the seat post binder screw thingy... Anyone know the spec of that and where a good source is?
Does anyone know what era/vintage the Campy bottom bracket and headset are from? I'm still undecided on Campy vs Dura Ace for this build, but obvsiouly have a bit of a head start on the Campy side.


You can see a full gallery of pics here if you're curious and feeling helpful:

https://picasaweb.google.com/alexb604/Merckx?authkey=Gv1sRgCKWl4cb8sfXynQE

[Llewellyn]

What you have there is a nice frame. Well done.

I'd love a proper Merckx one day.

[SpokeValley]

What you have there is a nice frame. Well done.

I'd love a proper Merckx one day.

Ditto that! :banana:

[technicolor]

1) I believe the "Merckx Original Paintwork" decal means the frame was repainted at the Merckx factory. I had a factory resprayed frame that came back with that decal. I'm sure someone will contradict my statement though.

2) Campagnolo seat binder bolt. Can be had many places.

3) Headset is a C-Record and era 1986 - 1992(?)

[texbike]

1) I believe the "Merckx Original Paintwork" decal means the frame was repainted at the Merckx factory. I had a factory resprayed frame that came back with that decal. I'm sure someone will contradict my statement though.

2) Campagnolo seat binder bolt. Can be had many places.

3) Headset is a C-Record and era 1986 - 1992(?)It could also be a Croce or later Athena or Chorus..

Agreed on all points here. I haven't seen an original paint Merckx with that decal. It seems that they're all repaints.

Also, I'd take the Cadre serial # guide with a grain of salt. It really is nothing more than a guide. I've seen multiple inconsistencies in Merckx serial #s over the years that weren't even close to what the guide stated the bike should be.

As for the single set of bottle cage bosses, it isn't unusual to see details like that. There are a ton of different permutations on basic models that have popped up from the factory.

Oh yeah, NICE bike!!! Congratulations.

Texbike

[Johnny P]

what you have there is a nice frame. Well done.

I'd love a proper merckx one day.

+1

[vjp]

+1

A good starting point and then if you dig around you can find out small details to help you narrow it down. I also think it is earlier than the team issue bikes and has a factory re-paint.

Nice bike!

Agreed on all points here. I haven't seen an original paint Merckx with that decal. It seems that they're all repaints.

Also, I'd take the Cadre serial # guide with a grain of salt. It really is nothing more than a guide. I've seen multiple inconsistencies in Merckx serial #s over the years that weren't even close to what the guide stated the bike should be.

As for the single set of bottle cage bosses, it isn't unusual to see details like that. There are a ton of different permutations on basic models that have popped up from the factory.

Oh yeah, NICE bike!!! Congratulations.

Texbike

[damocles]

You guys all rule... :banana:

I just went for a quick 60 minute spin and came back to all this Merckx enlightenment. Thanks!

[Md3000]

There's a hitachi team bike on cadre with almost similar serial no, also corsa extra, from 1989. Maybe it's repainted from that? I've been trying to find answers there myself but I'm still not entirely sure about my own frame. I have 8X Z5741, and I also have no holes on the seat tube for a bottle cage.

[lhuerta]

The frame is either a re-issue from mid 2000s, a team bike respray from mid 80s, or a production frame respray from mid 80s.

First, the “Original Paintwork Merckx” was common on the re-issue frames (mid 2000s) but also late model production frames (e.g. Corsa 0.1).

Second it appears the rear dropouts are stamped “Campagnolo” but hard to tell because of the thick paint. Campagnolo dropouts were more common on late 1980s-frames (before 130mm rear spacing).

Third, original Motorola production colorways from early 90s frames always included chrome (dropouts, frt der tab, both chain stays)…this one has no chrome and judging from paint peel on the dropouts, there is no chrome under the paint either.The re-issue frames also did not include chrome.

Fourth, the lack of pump peg and single H20 boss is more consistent with a team frame, however, it is missing a number braze-on (but not all team frames had number braze-ons). Early 80s frames only had one set of H20 bosses, but this one has a bridgeless BB, which began appearing in about 84-85 .

A couple of additional data points would allow us to narrow production year and model.

What type of tubing? Columbus SLX wasn’t used until about 1985, before that it was primarily Columbus SL and Reynolds tubes. Is the seat tube rifled or smooth?

What is the rear dropout spacing?

What is the geometry?

My best somewhat educated guess, with the info provided, is that this is a mid 80s team frame that was resprayed by Merckx factory.

Enjoy your new bike!

Lou

[Grant McLean]

My guess, based on having a look through the Merckx catalog scans
that I have, is that it's earliest a 91 or 1992 frame through the mid
90's it didn't change. I think that somehow didn't get bottle cage mounts
on the seat tube, or they were removed when it was repainted.

Some things to highlight: in 91 or 1992 the internal rear brake routing
changed to exit from the left side of the top tube, which this frame has.
From 87 to 90 it exited out the top of the tube. (see photos)

Being a repaint, these braze-ons could be suspect, maybe changed.
If it was an earlier Merckx, the gear cable guides would be on top of
the bb shell and chainstay stop.

As others mentioned, the lack of chrome is unusual too, i don't think
it's the replica from the 00s. Most of those i've seen have two cable
stops on the top tube, not internal routing, and ahead forks.

-g

[damocles]

Thanks Lou! Here's a little more info...

55cm Top Tube
54cm seat tube (c-c), 56cm seat tube (c-t)
12.6 cm head tube
Rear spacing measures 126mm by eyeball, although a modern 130mm wheel squeezes in with some fiddling.
"Campagnolo" is definitely stamped on the dropouts, under the paint as you noted.

Help me with the difference between a rifled seat tube or smooth? I'm not sure I understand what either mean...

I think most of this points to an older frame and not a re-issue, but would love to hear your take based on the above. Cheers...

The frame is either a re-issue from mid 2000s, a team bike respray from mid 80s, or a production frame respray from mid 80s.

First, the “Original Paintwork Merckx” was common on the re-issue frames (mid 2000s) but also late model production frames (e.g. Corsa 0.1).

Second it appears the rear dropouts are stamped “Campagnolo” but hard to tell because of the thick paint. Campagnolo dropouts were more common on late 1980s-frames (before 130mm rear spacing).

Third, original Motorola production colorways from early 90s frames always included chrome (dropouts, frt der tab, both chain stays)…this one has no chrome and judging from paint peel on the dropouts, there is no chrome under the paint either.The re-issue frames also did not include chrome.

Fourth, the lack of pump peg and single H20 boss is more consistent with a team frame, however, it is missing a number braze-on (but not all team frames had number braze-ons). Early 80s frames only had one set of H20 bosses, but this one has a bridgeless BB, which began appearing in about 84-85 .

A couple of additional data points would allow us to narrow production year and model.

What type of tubing? Columbus SLX wasn’t used until about 1985, before that it was primarily Columbus SL and Reynolds tubes. Is the seat tube rifled or smooth?

What is the rear dropout spacing?

What is the geometry?

My best somewhat educated guess, with the info provided, is that this is a mid 80s team frame that was resprayed by Merckx factory.

Enjoy your new bike!

Lou

[damocles]

Thanks Grant... Great details here. Very helpful.

My guess, based on having a look through the Merckx catalog scans
that I have, is that it's earliest a 91 or 1992 frame through the mid
90's it didn't change. I think that somehow didn't get bottle cage mounts
on the seat tube, or they were removed when it was repainted.

Some things to highlight: in 91 or 1992 the internal rear brake routing
changed to exit from the left side of the top tube, which this frame has.
From 87 to 90 it exited out the top of the tube. (see photos)

Being a repaint, these braze-ons could be suspect, maybe changed.
If it was an earlier Merckx, the gear cable guides would be on top of
the bb shell and chainstay stop.

As others mentioned, the lack of chrome is unusual too, i don't think
it's the replica from the 00s. Most of those i've seen have two cable
stops on the top tube, not internal routing, and ahead forks.

-g

[texbike]

Help me with the difference between a rifled seat tube or smooth? I'm not sure I understand what either mean...



You will need to shine a flashlight down the SEAT tube and look toward the bottom bracket. If it is SLX (which it should be given the other details), you will see ribs on the inside of the seat tube toward the bottom bracket shell. If it is SL (or possibly 753) it will be smooth all the way down the tube. TSX tubing will have ribs down the entire tube.

Texbike

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks Lou! Here's a little more info...

55cm Top Tube
54cm seat tube (c-c), 56cm seat tube (c-t)
12.6 cm head tube
Rear spacing measures 126mm by eyeball, although a modern 130mm wheel squeezes in with some fiddling.
"Campagnolo" is definitely stamped on the dropouts, under the paint as you noted.

Help me with the difference between a rifled seat tube or smooth? I'm not sure I understand what either mean...

I think most of this points to an older frame and not a re-issue, but would love to hear your take based on the above. Cheers...

A note about the BB, with that many threads showing on the non drive side, I wouldn't be surprised the BB spindle is a 68-type, rather than a '70' type..Cups look like C-Record...small point.

With the BB canble guides, I'd guess a early 90s Corsa Extra..I'll bet with SLX tubing..sloped fork crown..

[KidWok]

Good looking bike! I have a Merckx Professional from around the same time. Keep in mind that the C-Record BB will not work with 9-10 spd era square taper crank sets. The cranks will bottom out on the top of the cups before the spindle is seated.

Tai

[oldpotatoe]

Good looking bike! I have a Merckx Professional from around the same time. Keep in mind that the C-Record BB will not work with 9-10 spd era square taper crank sets. The cranks will bottom out on the top of the cups before the spindle is seated.

Tai

Not true, centaur, Daytona, Athena and Veloce all use the 111, ISO, symmetric BB, like c-record.

[KidWok]

Not true, centaur, Daytona, Athena and Veloce all use the 111, ISO, symmetric BB, like c-record.

Good to know. I mention this because OP had another thread looking for an alloy chorus group.

Tai

[bobswire]

Mine is a 88/89 Corsa Extra 54cm Same BB cable guides as yours but has pump peg and water bottle mounts on both sides.

http://oi41.tinypic.com/70dx1h.jpg

[mmtmatrix]

The frame is either a re-issue from mid 2000s, a team bike respray from mid 80s, or a production frame respray from mid 80s.

First, the “Original Paintwork Merckx” was common on the re-issue frames (mid 2000s) but also late model production frames (e.g. Corsa 0.1).

Second it appears the rear dropouts are stamped “Campagnolo” but hard to tell because of the thick paint. Campagnolo dropouts were more common on late 1980s-frames (before 130mm rear spacing).

Third, original Motorola production colorways from early 90s frames always included chrome (dropouts, frt der tab, both chain stays)…this one has no chrome and judging from paint peel on the dropouts, there is no chrome under the paint either.The re-issue frames also did not include chrome.

Fourth, the lack of pump peg and single H20 boss is more consistent with a team frame, however, it is missing a number braze-on (but not all team frames had number braze-ons). Early 80s frames only had one set of H20 bosses, but this one has a bridgeless BB, which began appearing in about 84-85 .

A couple of additional data points would allow us to narrow production year and model.

What type of tubing? Columbus SLX wasn’t used until about 1985, before that it was primarily Columbus SL and Reynolds tubes. Is the seat tube rifled or smooth?

What is the rear dropout spacing?

What is the geometry?

My best somewhat educated guess, with the info provided, is that this is a mid 80s team frame that was resprayed by Merckx factory.

Enjoy your new bike!

Lou





Also pretty sure that the sticker doesn't mean its a repaint, my motorola leader has the same and I am 99% sure its not a repaint. BUT, that lack of chrome is a bit surprising...

[11.4]

There were always a lot of frames hanging in the shop that someone in Belgium could walk in, buy, and have painted in whatever colors they wanted. These weren't repaints or if they technically were, they were not used frames. Also, there were tubing kits that were still around that would be built up for customers on request. They might look slightly dated or the tubing sets might not even be quite right for the design, but that's how the Merckx factory worked.

This frame doesn't look like it's newer than 1990. Merckx was changing small features all the time, but the bottom bracket hardware dates it a bit earlier. All of the braze-ons do look original, so I don't think anyone thinks it's a mod of an original Merckx. That paint sticker was a standard sticker on Merckx factory paint jobs -- sometimes they were repaints, sometimes original jobs.

Your bike has very clean stay ends and bottom bracket, etc. I don't think this was ever built up and ridden much, so I'd rule out a returned team bike or a rehabbed used bike of any kind. It's good to know it's almost certainly a new bike, and that it's definitely a factory Merckx. Hoever, whether it's a particular year or a particular configuration of braze-on styles or whatever is hard to make hay of, because the factory simply wasn't consistent. I spent a fair amount of time there and rode for two teams sponsored by Eddy. He knew people liked retro bikes and would mix and match to get there. And he didn't keep good records so you'll never really know. Just ride it and enjoy it. It's a beautiful bike.

[damocles]

Cheers for the insights... Your perspective and knowledge makes a lot of sense with what I see here too.

There were always a lot of frames hanging in the shop that someone in Belgium could walk in, buy, and have painted in whatever colors they wanted. These weren't repaints or if they technically were, they were not used frames. Also, there were tubing kits that were still around that would be built up for customers on request. They might look slightly dated or the tubing sets might not even be quite right for the design, but that's how the Merckx factory worked.

This frame doesn't look like it's newer than 1990. Merckx was changing small features all the time, but the bottom bracket hardware dates it a bit earlier. All of the braze-ons do look original, so I don't think anyone thinks it's a mod of an original Merckx. That paint sticker was a standard sticker on Merckx factory paint jobs -- sometimes they were repaints, sometimes original jobs.

Your bike has very clean stay ends and bottom bracket, etc. I don't think this was ever built up and ridden much, so I'd rule out a returned team bike or a rehabbed used bike of any kind. It's good to know it's almost certainly a new bike, and that it's definitely a factory Merckx. Hoever, whether it's a particular year or a particular configuration of braze-on styles or whatever is hard to make hay of, because the factory simply wasn't consistent. I spent a fair amount of time there and rode for two teams sponsored by Eddy. He knew people liked retro bikes and would mix and match to get there. And he didn't keep good records so you'll never really know. Just ride it and enjoy it. It's a beautiful bike.

[seanile]

the reissues werent chromed whereas nearly all the originals had some amount of chrome if i'm remembering right. so id be leaning toward a reissue.

[texbike]

There were always a lot of frames hanging in the shop that someone in Belgium could walk in, buy, and have painted in whatever colors they wanted. These weren't repaints or if they technically were, they were not used frames. Also, there were tubing kits that were still around that would be built up for customers on request. They might look slightly dated or the tubing sets might not even be quite right for the design, but that's how the Merckx factory worked.

This frame doesn't look like it's newer than 1990. Merckx was changing small features all the time, but the bottom bracket hardware dates it a bit earlier. All of the braze-ons do look original, so I don't think anyone thinks it's a mod of an original Merckx. That paint sticker was a standard sticker on Merckx factory paint jobs -- sometimes they were repaints, sometimes original jobs.

Your bike has very clean stay ends and bottom bracket, etc. I don't think this was ever built up and ridden much, so I'd rule out a returned team bike or a rehabbed used bike of any kind. It's good to know it's almost certainly a new bike, and that it's definitely a factory Merckx. Hoever, whether it's a particular year or a particular configuration of braze-on styles or whatever is hard to make hay of, because the factory simply wasn't consistent. I spent a fair amount of time there and rode for two teams sponsored by Eddy. He knew people liked retro bikes and would mix and match to get there. And he didn't keep good records so you'll never really know. Just ride it and enjoy it. It's a beautiful bike.

Fantastic post as always!

Texbike

[damocles]

So I got the Merckx built up and took it on it's first ride today... Here's a quick iPhone pic. I thought you guys might like to see how it turned out. I'm super thrilled with it. Will get my proper camera out and do some shots and details for the image gallery in the next day or so...

[velotrack]

Great build, and that white flite is icing on the cake. Not just because the fact that I sold it to you. :)

[ultraman6970]

Ultra approves!!

[damocles]

I did tell ya that it was going to a great home! Thanks again Velotrack!:banana:

Great build, and that white flite is icing on the cake. Not just because the fact that I sold it to you. :)

[Grant McLean]

This frame doesn't look like it's newer than 1990. Merckx was changing small features all the time, but the bottom bracket hardware dates it a bit earlier. All of the braze-ons do look original, so I don't think anyone thinks it's a mod of an original Merckx. That paint sticker was a standard sticker on Merckx factory paint jobs -- sometimes they were repaints, sometimes original jobs.



Did this paint scheme exist before the Motorola team?
I don't have a 1991 catalog, but the 7-Eleven colour is widely
featured in the 1990 version, and Motorola is in the 1992 catalog.

7-Eleven didn't became Motorola until 1991, so this example frame
is either a repaint of an earlier frame, or if it's original paint
then it's unlikely to be older than 91/92.

-g

[c-record]

I really like Merckx bikes. :)

[Md3000]

Beautiful !!

[catchourbreath]

I have an Basso Gap from the mid 80's and a couple of things were different than any Basso Gap from that era. No Chrome underneath and a Pump Peg. I contacted them and they told me that it's legit and just sometimes they made them like that. I wouldn't be surprised if Merckx was a similarly working business where they kinda just did things because maybe that month the chrome place was on vacation, or they had other tubesets to use up. If most things point to it being from a certain era, don't let other things steer you off of that.

[damocles]

True story... ;)

I really like Merckx bikes. :)

[ultraman6970]

Post yours :D

Beautiful !!

[Md3000]

It's here: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=153342 :banana:

[Emerxil]

Maybe it could be useful to someone...
A7575 = early 1988, Corsa Extra, frame repainted and rebuilt in 1992 at EMC at the earliest, X = SLX.
Z5741 = Pro SLX, late 85/beginning of 1986. Any consideration of paid options (chrome plating, fixing of second bottle, slides, fork crown, seat stays etc) is unfortunately a waste of time.

[colker]

I thought those short semi horiz. drop outs and bridgeless chainstays were only from early 90s on.

[Emerxil]

It's been the normal "short" Campagnolo dropouts - in EMC since 1980, bridgeless chainstay - since 1984.