Travel bike wheelset - Wheelbuilders input appreciated

[donevwil]

I'm in need of a nice, durable, stiff wheelset that will be the primary set for my S&S Potts.

The challenges/desires are:

I weigh 230-240#
Am pretty easy on equipment.
Want reduced spoke count, 24h/28h (?), to facilitate packing in a 10" S&S case.
Are a nice wheel for everyday riding if not a go-to wheelset.
Weight is not of primary importance.
I am open to all rim widths, but 23mm is preferred for interchangeability.


Some current data points (wheels I have):

Old set of Mavic Cosmos - Surprisingly nice, stiff wheelset for a bottom rung offering. 24/28 straight pull spokes and bullet proof. These have been my travel wheels for the last 13 years, but they are on their last legs. These wheels are why I believe a 24/28 wheelset can be built for me. Maybe it's the straight-pull spokes ?
HED Ardennes CLs - Have proven extremely durable, but the rear is simply to squirrely (lacking in lateral stiffness I presume) for confident hi-mph descending and sprinting.
Custom 36 spoke H-Plus tb14 on 9spd Chours hubs w/ Sapim double butted rear & cx-rays in front - handling is great, but packing 36 spoke wheels with current bike in 10" case is not possibile and I would like to avoid a 12" case.
Custom 28h A23 front/32 H-Plus Arch rear on WI hubs - These were a spec myself and have someone build them wheelset, originally with an A23 OC rear. Dismal failure as the A23s are too light for me and the OC rear was garbage. Move to the Arch helped, but I'm going to give these to my wife.
Custom 36 spoke Velocity Synergy on 9 spd Athena hubs w/ DT double butted f & r - My off road wheels. Durable, heavy and dead on the road.


I typically run Grand Bois Cypres 32s, but may very occasionally step down to 28s or up to 35s for special cases. I've spoken to a few local wheel builders, but they all pick one of the extremes (36 spoke and just deal with the packing, or something too similar to the HEDs to make me think they understood my current issues). So instead of asking the builders here one-by-one, I'm hoping this post is acceptable.

Please recommend some rims, hubs, spoke-count, etc. If a builder doesn't want to divulge any trade secrets please PM me. I want to buy.

Thanks

[dan682]

I'm just an amateur wheelbuilder, but I've built many sets for myself and friends. I'd recommend the black Campy record hubs 32/32, with Pacenti SL23 rims and DT comp or Sapim race spokes front and rear. The SL23s seem to be much sturdier and better finished than the A23s. I read many reports of difficult tire mounting on the SL23s but have had no issues with mine, using Stan's tape.

[donevwil]

I'm just an amateur wheelbuilder, but I've built many sets for myself and friends. I'd recommend the black Campy record hubs 32/32, with Pacenti SL23 rims and DT comp or Sapim race spokes front and rear. The SL23s seem to be much sturdier and better finished than the A23s. I read many reports of difficult tire mounting on the SL23s but have had no issues with mine, using Stan's tape.

Your recommendation is a pretty standard, solid wheelset, but not much different from the 32h Archetype/WI I currently have. Fine wheel, just doesn't have the stiffness or durability I want/need. Granted that may be more an issue of the build quality, I just don't know.

[Steve in SLO]

You may want to make sure that you stay away from anything proprietary. If you are traveling to a relatively remote area and break something you want to have replacements readily available.

[dan682]

You could do a DT RR585 rear, super solid and heavy, but it's 19mm wide. I have one with a 20 spoke rear wheel, great quality rim. I can't think of any similar 23mm rims though.

Oldpotatoe will probably chime in soon...

[donevwil]

You may want to make sure that you stay away from anything proprietary. If you are traveling to a relatively remote area and break something you want to have replacements readily available.

I used to think that way, but the best wheels I've travelled with is the last 25 years have all been proprietary to some degree (Campy Scirrocco, Vento and Mavic Cosmos and Ksyrium). If some rare straight pull hub combined with a difficult to procure rim yields the wheel I'm dreaming of I'm willing to take the chance.

You could do a DT RR585 rear, super solid and heavy, but it's 19mm wide. I have one with a 20 spoke rear wheel, great quality rim. I can't think of any similar 23mm rims though.

I would prefer 23mm, but am open to any width. DT appears to have quite a few offerings.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm in need of a nice, durable, stiff wheelset that will be the primary set for my S&S Potts.

The challenges/desires are:

I weigh 230-240#
Am pretty powerful when I've got some miles in my legs, but I am pretty easy on equipment.
Must support packing is a 10" S&S case without excessive head pounding (read 36 spoke).
Are a nice wheel for everyday riding if not a go-to wheelset.
Bike has Paul Racer Ms with no barrel adjusters (by design) so 23mm rims are ideal to allow effortless wheel swaps with other sets I've currently got. I am open minded to other widths, however.
Not going to put a $$ limit on this for the time being because I don't want that to dictate the build. Less is better and anything approaching 4-figures would be difficult.

Some current data points (wheels I have):

HED Ardennes CLs - have proven extremely durable, but the rear is simply to squirrely (lacking in lateral stiffness I presume) for confident hi-mph descending and sprinting.
Custom 36 spoke H-Plus tb14 on 9spd Chours hubs w/ Sapim double butted rear & cx-rays in front - handling is great, but they are heavy, can be questionable on hi-speed descents in a crosswind and packing 36 spoke wheels is a virtual impossibility with such a large bike (I've tried).
Custom 28h A23 front/32 H-Plus Arch rear on WI hubs - These were a spec myself and have someone build them wheelset, originally with an A23 OC rear. Dismal failure as the A23s are too light for me and the OC rear was garbage. Move to the Arch helped, but I'm going to give these to my wife.
Custom 36 spoke Velocity Synergy on 9 spd Athena hubs w/ DT double butted f & r - My off road wheels. Durable, heavy and dead on the road.
Old set of Mavic Cosmos - Surprisingly nice, stiff wheelset for a bottom rung offering. 24/28 straight pull spokes and bullet proof. These have been my travel wheels for the last 15 years, but they are on their last legs. These wheels are why I believe a 24/28 wheelset can be built for me. Maybe it's the straight-pull spokes ?


I typically run Grand Bois Cypres 32s, but may very occasionally step down to 28s or up to 35s for special cases. I've spoken to a few local wheel builders, but they all pick one of the extremes (36 spoke and just deal with the packing, or something too similar to the HEDs to make me think they understood my current issues). So instead of asking the builders here one-by-one, I'm hoping this post is acceptable.

Please recommend some rims, hubs, spoke-count, etc. If a builder doesn't want to divulge any trade secrets please PM me.

Thanks

230-240 pounds, 36h minimum unless pretty stout rim. Velocity or Miche hubs, 36h, Mavic A719. DT Comp, Sapim Race spokes laced 3 cross, brass pro lock nipples.

Wide, 36h, stout for you.

If 36 a show stopper, 32 H+son, Record hubs, DT/Sapim Comp/Race spokes, brass pro locks. Remember, no such thing as a free lunch, light wheel means not as reliable for you.

[donevwil]

230-240 pounds, 36h minimum unless pretty stout rim. Velocity or Miche hubs, 36h, Mavic A719. DT Comp, Sapim Race spokes laced 3 cross, brass pro lock nipples.

Wide, 36h, stout for you.

If 36 a show stopper, 32 H+son, Record hubs, DT/Sapim Comp/Race spokes, brass pro locks. Remember, no such thing as a free lunch, light wheel means not as reliable for you.

This is pretty similar to the responses I've gotten from other wheelbuilders, 36 spokes, or maybe, but not recommended, 32. End of story, thank you for coming.

Why then do my $250 in '01, 13 year old, 20K + mile, 24/28 spoke Mavic Cosmos wheels work so well (straight pull hubs/spokes and what I understand are just Open Pro rims) ? Surely a wheelset of similar construction with newer, specifically chosen components could be built to hit the target ? No ?

[biker72]

I have a set of relatively inexpensive 36H Mavic CXP 33 laced to Ultegra hubs. Simple but stout.

[oldpotatoe]

I have a set of relatively inexpensive 36H Mavic CXP 33 laced to Ultegra hubs. Simple but stout.

Not wide but great choice, nice rims, spoke number and hubs.

[thwart]

Old set of Mavic Cosmos - Surprisingly nice, stiff wheelset for a bottom rung offering. 24/28 straight pull spokes and bullet proof. These have been my travel wheels for the last 15 years, but they are on their last legs. These wheels are why I believe a 24/28 wheelset can be built for me. Maybe it's the straight-pull spokes ?

I've also been impressed with a couple sets of Cosmos I've had over the years. Still own one set. Mavic has not been producing this sort of durable, non-flashy wheelset for awhile. Too bad.

[Bob Ross]

This is pretty similar to the responses I've gotten from other wheelbuilders, 36 spokes, or maybe, but not recommended, 32. End of story, thank you for coming.

I've got no suggestions, just wanted to commiserate: I feel your pain.
From what (little) I know about wheelbuilding 36h does indeed sound like the right choice for someone your size...and from what (slightly more, most of it first-hand) I know about packing S&S coupled bikes, I know that 36h just Will. Not. Work.

Or at least Won't. Be. Fun.

[donevwil]

I've got no suggestions, just wanted to commiserate: I feel your pain.
From what (little) I know about wheelbuilding 36h does indeed sound like the right choice for someone your size...and from what (slightly more, most of it first-hand) I know about packing S&S coupled bikes, I know that 36h just Will. Not. Work.

Or at least Won't. Be. Fun.

From my perspective 36h, or even 32, is the easy, safe answer, not the only answer. As previously shared the 24h/28h Mavic Cosmos were perfectly acceptable. My thinking is that with modern rims and a skilled custom hand build the result could only be better.

Maybe I need to be looking for a factory built wheel.

[dan682]

I think a 24/28 with some of the slightly heavier wide rims, like the H+son, would probably work, but the pro wheelbuilders on here want to build wheelsets they can guaranteed will stay true for years. They would question why you care about saving 72 grams in spokes when you weigh 230 pounds.

[donevwil]

I think a 24/28 with some of the slightly heavier wide rims, like the H+son, would probably work, but the pro wheelbuilders on here want to build wheelsets they can guaranteed will stay true for years. They would question why you care about saving 72 grams in spokes when you weigh 230 pounds.

Reduced spoke count to facilitate packing. That's it. To the first order I could care less about the weight.

I agree regarding the "guaranteed" point, same feedback I've gotten from local builders.

[crupshaw]

Go 24-28 (or even 32 rear), but with straight-gauge spokes. They'll be heaver than double butted, but the added cross-section makes them stiffer.

[donevwil]

Go 24-28 (or even 32 rear), but with straight-gauge spokes. They'll be heaver than double butted, but the added cross-section makes them stiffer.

Makes sense, but I'm not a wheel builder and have no local talent to approach. Ultimately this thread was intended to FIND a wheel builder who had an out-of-the-standard-36h-box idea and the confidence to pull it off.

[oldpotatoe]

Go 24-28 (or even 32 rear), but with straight-gauge spokes. They'll be heaver than double butted, but the added cross-section makes them stiffer.

Not as reliable as all else being equal and double butted spokes regardless of number of spokes. 24/28, 450 gram rim, straight gauge spokes, for this gent, well, this wheel builder of 29 years would not build it. Nor would I with double butted spokes unless the rim is in the 600 gram range, like a DT 585.

[oldpotatoe]

Makes sense, but I'm not a wheel builder and have no local talent to approach. Ultimately this thread was intended to FIND a wheel builder who had an out-of-the-standard-36h-box idea and the confidence to pull it off.

I thought 36h was a Non starter for S&S? 32 hole DT 585, Mavic CXP-33, Velocity ProElite(Tubulars baby!!).

[donevwil]

Not as reliable as all else being equal and double butted spokes regardless of number of spokes. 24/28, 450 gram rim, straight gauge spokes, for this gent, well, this wheel builder of 29 years would not build it. Nor would I with double butted spokes unless the rim is in the 600 gram range, like a DT 585.

My experience is exactly as OP states, the best riding, most durable hand built wheels I've owned were all 36h (rear) with rims over ~460g. I love my H-Plus TB14/Campy set, they just won't fit in my S&S box.

Ultimately I'm not seeing any burly, ~550-600g, 24 & 28 hole rims to pair with, for example, a set of DT Swiss straight pull hubs.

I thought 36h was a Non starter for S&S? 32 hole DT 585, Mavic CXP-33, Velocity ProElite(Tubulars baby!!).

I believe something like this will be the fallback. I have never had issues with 28h fronts so it would come down to a wheelset with mix-match rims. I like the idea of the Mavic A719 you recommended earlier in 32h rear.

What would be a complementary 23-24mm wide, eyeleted 28h rim for the front ?

[oldpotatoe]

My experience is exactly as OP states, the best riding, most durable hand built wheels I've owned were all 36h (rear) with rims over ~460g. I love my H-Plus TB14/Campy set, they just won't fit in my S&S box.

Ultimately I'm not seeing any burly, ~550-600g, 24 & 28 hole rims to pair with, for example, a set of DT Swiss straight pull hubs.

DT 585...Velocity Deep V, Velocity Fusion..

[donevwil]

DT 585...Velocity Deep V, Velocity Fusion..

Sorry, I should have added in ~23mm width.

[spartanKid]

The Kinlin XR-380 might be the stiffest thing out there. But it's only 20 mm wide.

The XC-279 though, is 23 mm wide and 28 mm deep, available in 20/24/28 holes.

Edit: the XC-279 is ~500 g.

[Duende]

230-240 pounds, 36h minimum unless pretty stout rim. Velocity or Miche hubs, 36h, Mavic A719. DT Comp, Sapim Race spokes laced 3 cross, brass pro lock nipples.

Wide, 36h, stout for you.

If 36 a show stopper, 32 H+son, Record hubs, DT/Sapim Comp/Race spokes, brass pro locks. Remember, no such thing as a free lunch, light wheel means not as reliable for you.

+1

Been down this road.

Archetypes, record 32, Dt comps, brass nipples EQUALS no rear wheel flex for my 200-210 frame.

Honestly, at your weight.... I don't know how you could be safe with anything of a lower spoke count.. unless you went with Shamals or something.

[donevwil]

+1

Been down this road.

Archetypes, record 32, Dt comps, brass nipples EQUALS no rear wheel flex for my 200-210 frame.

I've already got this wheelset with WI hubs, looking for something more packing friendly.

I think we've beaten the 32 or 36 spoke recommendation to death. I'm already set on that front.

Honestly, at your weight.... I don't know how you could be safe with anything of a lower spoke count.. unless you went with Shamals or something.

13-15 years and ~20,000 trouble free miles on a $250 set of 24F/28R Mavic Cosmos' would suggest otherwise. Let alone many years of racing and training on 90's era Ventos and Siroccos with nary an issue.

If a set of factory wheels is the answer to my question then I'm all for it, any recommendations ?

[jamesutiopia]

I pack 32/32h wheels in the 10" S&S box ~30 times a year and am in your weight class. Wheels don't actually last 12 months because the TSA does a crappy job re-closing my bike luggage, and the wheels are the first thing to suffer...

Used to have Hed Belgiums, but now I just use Velocity Synergies because they are much easier to source. I wouldn't worry about having your travel bike be as high-zoot and lively as possible-- strong & serviceable, but dead, wheels on a bike that fits are miles better than even the fanciest rental bike.

Another thing to consider, if your bike is new and your shop/builder stocks S&S boxes: The tolerance on the plastic boxes is +/- 1/2", which is a huge difference when things are tight! You might try swapping the box and get a larger one through luck of the draw...

[mdeeds71]

My experience:

I use 32/32 HEDs to King Hubs with Veloflex 25s.

Frame is a roughly 58 sloper from IF with 44 bars, straight blade fork.

If I get it right and I mean just right, it all fits into the 10"...but instead of taking multiple hours to pack and only to get nervous about TSA or any other country inspector opening...I pack one item outside of the box and it all fits so much better.

As a pilot I pull as my luggage a standard size rollerboard. Inside that I place the handlebars with cabling and all of my other travel/work clothing still fits since the bars fit and take very limited volume. All else to include helmet, clothing, shoes and bike are in the box. There is no issue with the fit and then subsequent reopening/closing by TSA.

If you want durability with performance go with OP and his suggestions and put the bars into a travel roller luggage.

I even had Fulcrum 1s that I was originally using and my bars still did not fit well.

I am actually looking for another clincher build of HED 23s or Pacenti/King or White is anyone is willing to build for me? 3 emails out and no responses to include some on Paceline.

[Lionel]

If a set of factory wheels is the answer to my question then I'm all for it, any recommendations ?

campy Neutron. Bomb proof.