The Shaming of the SRAM

[peanutgallery]

You came into my life like puppy love, free shifters that I won at superweek that matched the neon green of my Oakley Radars. I was never sorrier, its like you gave me herpes - the "gift" that keeps on giving. You turn up in my life with almost every bike purchase and disappoint me each and every time. Each and every time I swear I'll never do it again, but still I take you back.

The form in which you turn up does not matter, I have diligently bled your disc brakes hundreds of times for seemingly no reason, looked the other way when anodization peels off components after just a few rides, silently cringed as your "chain" snap/crackle/pops over your "cassette" in the most JRA of situations. I have helpfully pointed out to other riders that they routed their rear der. cable incorrectly and that was the only problem with their shifting. Now I have this ever growing pile of junk that I cannot even give to someone to use. Not so with the Campy or Shimano pile, they seem to always live on after I stop using them. A second life on a kids bike, a commuter or a neighbors bike

The final straw was yesterday, as I was diligently cleaning and servicing my ATB after an awesome week of riding in Pisgah the chainring bolt pulled right thru the chainring of my X9 crank that was maybe 2 months old. Seriously, WTH? Who threads a chainring, they're like 3mm wide? A replacement is like what, $75. The crank was $150

I have suffered the indignity of this relationship for far too long. My cycling friends belittle my road bike with a 15 year old campy crank because the SRAM it came with crapped the bed, self esteem is at an all time low.

It's over, it's not me it you. Going to the shop and getting Alivio or something. Just give me an address, I need to send you all this broken stuff so it can be disposed of properly.

Rant complete

[firerescuefin]

As I tell the young guys that work for me....Never marry the stripper. You've learned your lesson.

[gospastic]

oldpotatoe just busted a nut while reading this

[texbike]

Hilarious post! Life's too short to ride SRAM. :)

Texbike

[oldpotatoe]

oldpotatoe just busted a nut while reading this

Just smiling. Many that either rides with or works on this junque knows of what you speak. I know a big boy at QBP that just got hired at splam specifically to address many of the issues mentioned. So....they know their 'stuff' is seriously poor when actually used but have known this for a 'while'. Unmonitored Asian factories pumping out poorly designed, then made, stuff. But it's light!!

Used to be cheap and light, and poor, now it's just light and poor.


Fun.....

Even more than a few product managers, seeing all the issues their OE bikes have, are leaping back to shimano.

This will probably degrade to a 'you snob, my red/black/yellow stuff has.....blah, blah.

I'm a ready!!

[jr59]

oldpotatoe just busted a nut while reading this


my thoughts exactly!

[Saint Vitus]

So what you're saying is that friends don't let friends ride SRAM?

[rnhood]

I took my Red group off after six months, and literally threw it in the trash bin. it remains today the worst cycling related purchase I ever made.

[bcroslin]

I rode SRAM for years and suffered the indignities of drive trains that never quite worked correctly. I actually made a mechanic buddy of mine so angry after working on my red FD that he swore he would not touch the bike again.

It wasn't until I dusted off my 17 year old MTB with an XT drive train and started riding it and everything worked like the day it was new that I decided enough was enough and switched to Shimano. I've never looked back and couldn't be happier.

[josephr]

well written rant!!

My experiences with SRAM have been limited to a couple of occasional bike rental while on vacation. Seemed functional enough, but here and everywhere I hear of SRAM problems enough to avoid it. Shimano has never let me down and always been smooth and bulletproof. But, I'm under the impression that SRAM's OEM program is so strong that the big bike companies see a sizeable chunk in profitability. Sort of like Schwalbe --- great for OEM, but when it comes time to replace, customers are going to examine their options.
Joe

[vav]

Posts # 14 and 15 :p

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=147824&highlight=common+mistakes

[distanc3]

Thanks for the funny read this morning!

[Z3c]

So reality is finally taking hold. I still have the 7970 I bought in 2009, have moved to ~ 4 frames and still works perfectly..

Let's keep this pot bubbling; has Campy been responsible for an innovation since the skewer? Granted, the skewer was important but in my cycling lifetime they have been a follower. Please don't point to having 11 speed first; that doesn't qualify for innovation in my book as it is just adding a cog and a clic.

Cables under the tape=S
Cassettes not freewheels=S
Index shifting=S
Dual Pivot brakes=S
Integrated brake/shifters=S
Improved front shifting via chainring ramps=S
Outboard bearing BB's=S
Electronic shifting(reliable)=S(Campy still does not offer extra shift buttons!)
Hyd Disc on road=S

?=C

[45K10]

So reality is finally taking hold. I still have the 7970 I bought in 2009, have moved to ~ 4 frames and still works perfectly..

Let's keep this pot bubbling; has Campy been responsible for an innovation since the skewer? Granted, the skewer was important but in my cycling lifetime they have been a follower. Please don't point to having 11 speed first; that doesn't qualify for innovation in my book as it is just adding a cog and a clic.

Cables under the tape=S
Cassettes not freewheels=S
Index shifting=S
Dual Pivot brakes=S
Integrated brake/shifters=S
Improved front shifting via chainring ramps=S
Outboard bearing BB's=S
Electronic shifting(reliable)=S(Campy still does not offer extra shift buttons!)
Hyd Disc on road=S

?=C

Cables under tape sorry, Campy had that first by a long shot

[fiamme red]

Cables under tape sorry, Campy had that first by a long shotI think he means aero brake levers that appeared in the early 1980's with Shimano AX.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3043/2549310799_aa002b3cd1_b.jpg

[Lewis Moon]

Used to be cheap and light, and poor, now it's just light and poor.



Well....that's a business model. Smarm is the "Kleenex" of the bike world: spend more on advertising (Pro teams, etc) than on product design and development and QA/QC.

[Z3c]

I think he means aero brake levers that appeared in the early 1980's with Shimano AX.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3043/2549310799_aa002b3cd1_b.jpg


Yep, this is what I'm referring to..

[Z3c]

Well....that's a business model. Smarm is the "Kleenex" of the bike world: spend more on advertising (Pro teams, etc) than on product design and development and QA/QC.

Man, I hope Kleenex doesn't sue you for slander..

[R2D2]

Indexed shifting was Suntour.
Electronic shifting was MAVIC.

Shimano followed at times.

[thirdgenbird]

So reality is finally taking hold. I still have the 7970 I bought in 2009, have moved to ~ 4 frames and still works perfectly..

Let's keep this pot bubbling; has Campy been responsible for an innovation since the skewer? Granted, the skewer was important but in my cycling lifetime they have been a follower. Please don't point to having 11 speed first; that doesn't qualify for innovation in my book as it is just adding a cog and a clic.

Cables under the tape=S
Cassettes not freewheels=S
Index shifting=S
Dual Pivot brakes=S
Integrated brake/shifters=S
Improved front shifting via chainring ramps=S
Outboard bearing BB's=S
Electronic shifting(reliable)=S(Campy still does not offer extra shift buttons!)
Hyd Disc on road=S

?=C

Dual pivot brakes existed long before shimano brought them to market.

I believe outboard bearings did too.

[wallymann]

Too expensive, C is too small to push the envelope in this way.

S has the deep pockets and the engineering expertise to make good ideas work in the real world. I also submit that most of the S innovations have been around for a long time....nothing is truly new in cycling as a quick search of the patent database always shows. S also created dynadrive pedals and biopace chainrings, so they're not batting 1000 but they do pretty damn good. much respect to them for all their good products.

C makes durable and functional and *desireable* tackle. Well the last was true until the just-released 4-arm crank design appeared!

[ColonelJLloyd]

Yeah, that list is cute, but it's almost entirely incorrect!

Shimano did not invent the freehub. Pretty sure Bayliss was making freehubs pre-war.

[Lewis Moon]

Man, I hope Kleenex doesn't sue you for slander..

It's an example among many: companies that rely on name recognition and familiarity rather than quality to sell their products. The strategy is to cheapen a product up to the threshold where customers are forced to start looking elsewhere. TV shows do this all the time. A "great" season is often followed by firing all the writers, cheapening production and reaping profits gained from reduced costs....at the expense of any quality.

Wall Street thinks you're stupid.

[oldpotatoe]

So reality is finally taking hold. I still have the 7970 I bought in 2009, have moved to ~ 4 frames and still works perfectly..

Let's keep this pot bubbling; has Campy been responsible for an innovation since the skewer? Granted, the skewer was important but in my cycling lifetime they have been a follower. Please don't point to having 11 speed first; that doesn't qualify for innovation in my book as it is just adding a cog and a clic.

Cables under the tape=S
Cassettes not freewheels=S
Index shifting=S
Dual Pivot brakes=S
Integrated brake/shifters=S
Improved front shifting via chainring ramps=S
Outboard bearing BB's=S
Electronic shifting(reliable)=S(Campy still does not offer extra shift buttons!)
Hyd Disc on road=S

?=C

Ya mean shimano or suntour cuz more than a few were suntour.

Plus some others, like DP brakes and electronic shifting were way before shimano.

C-first to 9s, 10s and 11s also. I don't mind shimano, have a Campagnolo tattoo but scram is real crappola.

[shovelhd]

Where's that popcorn smiley?

I have mentioned this before but I have an SRAM Red Yaw SRM that shifts beautifully with 7970. It's no Hollowgram or Clavicula in the weight department but it is plenty stiff.

[malcolm]

Cables under tape sorry, Campy had that first by a long shot

Not so sure, Old potato would know but I think pre integrated brakes/shifting shimano put the brake cables under the tape first, again not sure, but my first bike with under the tape cables was shimano 600, still have it and it still works, only shimano I own except mtn bike stuff.

For campy once you invent the parallelogram derailleurs who cares.

I have sram shifters with shimano derailleurs on a mtn bike and they work great, they were on there when I bought it.

[Z3c]

Where's that popcorn smiley?

I have mentioned this before but I have an SRAM Red Yaw SRM that shifts beautifully with 7970. It's no Hollowgram or Clavicula in the weight department but it is plenty stiff.

Nevermind; misread..

[Z3c]

Ya mean shimano or suntour cuz more than a few were suntour.

Plus some others, like DP brakes and electronic shifting were way before shimano.

C-first to 9s, 10s and 11s also. I don't mind shimano, have a Campagnolo tattoo but scram is real crappola.

I realize S wasn't first with electronic hence the (reliable)..

My apologies to Suntour as needed; that is on the fringe of my cycling lifetime/awareness..

Again, I don't consider # of speeds to be an innovation, just a modification/improvement.

[oldpotatoe]

I realize S wasn't first with electronic hence the (reliable)..

My apologies to Suntour as needed; that is on the fringe of my cycling lifetime/awareness..

Again, I don't consider # of speeds to be an innovation, just a modification/improvement.

Well, many of the mentioned things and most, are not innovations but improvements or just changes. DP brakes are an improvement of caliper brakes, for instance.

Scram doesn't do anything but copy, poorly.

[wallymann]

Yeah, that list is cute, but it's almost entirely incorrect!

Shimano did not invent the freehub. Pretty sure Bayliss was making freehubs pre-war.

bayiss was the innovator

als interesting is the hybrid freehub/freewheel (and flawed) maillard helicomatic design.

http://www.borgercompagnie.com/helicomatic/html/images/diagram.jpg
http://www.borgercompagnie.com/helicomatic/html/images/maillard_700_(5).jpg

[shovelhd]

Were they first with hydraulic road brakes?

[thirdgenbird]

Yeah, that list is cute, but it's almost entirely incorrect!

Shimano did not invent the freehub. Pretty sure Bayliss was making freehubs pre-war.

I thought that one was wrong too but couldn't come up with the name.

[thirdgenbird]

Were they first with hydraulic road brakes?

That was magura in the early 90s I think

[ColonelJLloyd]

..als interesting is the hybrid freehub/freewheel (and flawed) maillard helicomatic design.

I don't even like typing the word. ;)

[batman1425]

Ugh, my wifes round town bike has a helicomatic hub. What a colossal POS. If the bike wasn't such a great deal, I would have passed on it just because of that. But $125 for a literally unused (still factory grease on the chain and hardly a nick in the paint) Bianchi Speciale from the early 80's was too good to pass up.

[rwsaunders]

Levi liked Red and posted so on Twitter...

[rwsaunders]

Wait...Levi posted this too...(courtesy of Bike Snob)

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

...

[oldpotatoe]

Wait...Levi posted this too...(courtesy of Bike Snob)

I know big Ed(spam royalty)reads this....at least I won't get a call from him so he can yell at me(like I did in the shop, what a classy guy)...

[bikingshearer]

Improved front shifting via chainring ramps=S

If Shimano didn't index their front derailleurs (on the short list for the worst bike part idea ever to catch on IMHO) and did their left brifter the way Campy did (i.e., a bunch of micro-clicks that is, as a practical matter, the same as friction), then ramps and pins would not be necessary. The proverbial solution to what was a non-existent problem.

[gearguywb]

I love me some Campy......

Having said that, I switched all of my bikes to SRAM a few years back when Campy went 11 and I couldn't afford the price of a new group to build an incoming bike.

While not sexy, SRAM has certainly worked for me.

[peanutgallery]

SRAM, now that it's over between us - let me count the ways that I loathe thee

1: one is for the average number of rides between brake bleeds

2: two is for the number of everything that I keep around "just in case" something breaks randomly and I know the bike shop won't stock one

3: three is the number of gears that my rear der. moves when I only wanted 2 - or was it 1?

4: four is for the number of versions of any particular current part, no one knows (or cares) about the differences between any of them

5: five is for the number of gears that I can use that don't make noise

6: six is for number of rides that my der. pulleys last - are they made out of butter? and why do they cost like $45 to replace?

7: seven is for the number of rides that a rear der. seems to last. usually it detonates right after I replace the pulleys

8. eight is for the number of gears on my 20 or so year old beater atb that work flawlessly after way too much abuse

9. nine is for the number of hells that I hope SRAM engineers, finance and marketing people have to go thru when they pass from this particular plane of existence. I sincerely hope that one of them involves having to interact with Frank Day for any period of time

SRAM, we're never going to get back together - heading to the bike shop after work and I'm buying angry

Have a great weekend and ride safe

[shovelhd]

I love me some Campy......

Having said that, I switched all of my bikes to SRAM a few years back when Campy went 11 and I couldn't afford the price of a new group to build an incoming bike.

While not sexy, SRAM has certainly worked for me.

Heretic!!! Stone him!!!!

[C50]

I don't know who invented it but my Campagnolo corkscrew absolutely is the finest wine opening device I have ever used and this makes my post ride hydrating very pleasant.

[brockd15]

Is there a hierarchy of faultiness in Sram gear?
I've only ever used a crankset, a cassette, and a few chains from them.

[Web1111a]

The 8 speed shimano cassette fans chain from sram work fine

[zachateseveryth]

Is there a hierarchy of faultiness in Sram gear?
I've only ever used a crankset, a cassette, and a few chains from them.

I haven't had any issues with my stuff outside of a front derailleur cage getting tweaked. The cranksets, cassettes, bottom brackets, and chains tend to be pretty functional/durable. Other people have had issues with shift quality, particularly on the front, and the occasional lever breaking.

That said, SRAM/Avid hydro brakes should be avoided at all costs.

[hida yanra]

...
9. nine is for the number of hells <snip> I sincerely hope that one of them involves having to interact with Frank Day for any period of time

baaaahahaha
:banana::banana:

[Elefantino]

I don't know who invented it but my Campagnolo corkscrew...
Shimano did.

...

You should have heard the collective groan when we got in a new cross bike with Apex. Lifetime free adjustments means we will see it, often.

[Red Tornado]

Always had Campy on the road bikes. Good stuff, no complaints. Much of it lasting & functioning well much longer than I expected. I know many riders who have jumped to SRAM, and by their own admission, regretted it. I'll stick with the big "C", thank you.
Been using SRAM stuff on mountain bikes since Grip Shift first hit the scene. Their dirt stuff always worked really well for me. Not sure why the difference between road & dirt stuff......

[ShaneAtSilca]

The hate is strong here.

I believe the bicycling world is a better place for the existence of SRAM if for no other reason than having additional choices. We are not better off in a world where the only choice for shifting our mountain bikes is Shimano, And for years before the launch of Force the decline of suntour and a lack of OE presence from campagnolo made the OEM road retail market in the US a virtual monopoly. That was not a better situation than the current market. Don't like the parts? Thats fine. But god I don't want to see the market without them.

[azrider]

Meh....

Been riding/racing SRAM for 5+ years. Nothing really to see here.

[oldpotatoe]

If Shimano didn't index their front derailleurs (on the short list for the worst bike part idea ever to catch on IMHO) and did their left brifter the way Campy did (i.e., a bunch of micro-clicks that is, as a practical matter, the same as friction), then ramps and pins would not be necessary. The proverbial solution to what was a non-existent problem.

Like octa-stink...an answer to a not asked question.

But I digress, shimano isn't bad, scam is awful.

[oldpotatoe]

Is there a hierarchy of faultiness in Sram gear?
I've only ever used a crankset, a cassette, and a few chains from them.

, just start at the top and then go to the bottom....

Start at red...end at apex

Start at XX, end about x7

[oldpotatoe]

The hate is strong here.

I believe the bicycling world is a better place for the existence of SRAM if for no other reason than having additional choices. We are not better off in a world where the only choice for shifting our mountain bikes is Shimano, And for years before the launch of Force the decline of suntour and a lack of OE presence from campagnolo made the OEM road retail market in the US a virtual monopoly. That was not a better situation than the current market. Don't like the parts? Thats fine. But god I don't want to see the market without them.

Really? I'll bet car dealers when the Yugo showed up said the same thing.

Maybe the car market needs a Zil.

[EDS]

I have not had any problems with the first generation SRAM rival group and 2010 SRAM Red group I have, despite each having over 15,000 miles on them.

[oldpotatoe]

I have not had any problems with the first generation SRAM rival group and 2010 SRAM Red group I have, despite each having over 15,000 miles on them.

See, always 10%.....

[ceolwulf]

I have likewise not had any trouble with the sole SRAM part I own. It holds my Garmin up faultlessly :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[oldpotatoe]

I have likewise not had any trouble with the sole SRAM part I own. It holds my Garmin up faultlessly :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Give it time....

[4Rings6Stars]

I'm a campy guy but got a bike this spring with Force on it and so far it's been great. Can't speak to long term reliability though....

If any if you guys are seriously throwing away SRAM groups...I will happily take them off your hands. I've put a freeze on bike spending and have a frame that needs to be built up...

[azrider]

I'm a campy guy but got a bike this spring with Force on it and so far it's been great. Can't speak to long term reliability though....

If any if you guys are seriously throwing away SRAM groups...I will happily take them off your hands. I've put a freeze on bike spending and have a frame that needs to be built up...

OldP snarky comment coming in 3.............2...............

[Fishbike]

Going to the shop and getting Alivio or something.


Rant complete


That is what me really laugh!

[oldpotatoe]

OldP snarky comment coming in 3.............2...............

Snarky....if it walks like a duck.....

[Shoeman]

If any if you guys are seriously throwing away SRAM groups...I will happily take them off your hands. I've put a freeze on bike spending and have a frame that needs to be built up...

I'll take all you guy's care to throw away!!!!!! Have had no trouble with my Rival, Force or Red Groups. Red front shifting can be a problem, but that's only if you don't have a clue as to what to do with it.

[oldpotatoe]

I'll take all you guy's care to throw away!!!!!! Have had no trouble with my Rival, Force or Red Groups. Red front shifting can be a problem, but that's only if you don't have a clue as to what to do with it.

Like change the fder to 6700, along with cogset and chain... The 'clue'.

[velotrack]

I took my Red group off after six months, and literally threw it in the trash bin. it remains today the worst cycling related purchase I ever made.

That sounds like a very poor financial decision to me. Like mentioned earlier, seriously. Just give them to me. I'm sure I can make use of it on a commuter. 1x10 SRAM stuff ain't bad.

[BryanE]

Sram XX1 mountain bike equipment has worked great for me.
I have it on both my mtn bikes.
After this thread I'll avoid any road Sram gear.

[eBAUMANN]

That sounds like a very poor financial decision to me. Like mentioned earlier, seriously. Just give them to me. I'm sure I can make use of it on a commuter. 1x10 SRAM stuff ain't bad.

Yup, gotta agree here. Front shifting has been pretty abysmal on every pre-yaw SRAM 2x10 group I have had the displeasure of working on. Yaw fd's seem to work a little better but still...from my experiences, nothing tops campy's front shifters (with the micro clicks). I am very curious about S11 though...

Personally, I've never broken any SRAM parts. I have however witnessed plenty of casualties, but part of me wonders how much user error (in setup/operation) might have to do with it, as those using SRAM (no offense) seem to be more concerned with riding their bike and less about maintaining it.

That said...

I do ride (and like) SRAM on my 1x10 (and now 1x11) cx bikes, the rear shifting works fine and most importantly, they are the only ones to mate a clutch rd to a road shifter AND offer gutted left levers, which is pretty damn useful for 1x cx purposes.

That said...

Its campy and shimano for me on anything with 2 chainrings.

[mtechnica]

"75% of the time the front shifts every time."

- Sram

[Shoeman]

Like change the fder to 6700, along with cogset and chain... The 'clue'.

That is one of them, dump the Ti cage Red in favor of the Steel cage Red is another option. I also had luck with different chainrings as well as a lot of sensitive tweaking. Generally you can't just throw it on there & hope it works. Unlike Shimano with one eye closed and a hand tied behind your back.

[regularguy412]

The 8 speed shimano cassette fans chain from sram work fine

I recently decided to try a Scram 6,7,8 speed chain (w/removable link -- the first I've EVER used). Shifts are really good on my Shimano 8-speed cassette using 8-speed STI shifters. And, it's quite unexpectedly, QUIET running. (This lack of noise is in direct opposition to what I hear from my buddy's full Red-equipped Flek Madone 6.5. Even when he's BEHIND me in the draft I can hear the 'rattley rattle rattle' of the chain on the cogs. And the rear der. iIS correctly aligned! I will admit that I rarely see the Madone miss a shift with the Double Tap levers.

MIke in AR:beer:

[regularguy412]

Like change the fder to 6700, along with cogset and chain... The 'clue'.

I laughed out loud for real on this one.

Mike in AR:beer::hello:

[FlashUNC]

SRAM's great if you want to buy a new group every year. It's like a car lease. And the beta tester at the same time.