Play in Chris King Hubs

[Splash]

250km on a brand new set of Chris King Hubs (with ceramic bearings) and i see play in them when the wheel set is mount into the bike.

how much play in the hubs is considered normal / acceptable?

These hubs were installed by a mob in USA as part of my ENVE wheel sets.


Splash

[cfox]

A new set of King hubs will always develop play after a few rides. A tiny bit of play is ok before the quick release is tightened, but there should not be any play once the wheels are tightened into the frame. Don't ride around with super loose hubs; you'll either smoke the bearings or the freehub will slip. They are easy to adjust. Go to King's website and download the hub user manual; it explains all this stuff.

[mktng]

Happened to me. Just tightened the bearing cups a bit with their fancy hub tool. Plays gone. Hubs are solid! :)

[Splash]

great!

the play is there after the quick release is tightened.

why should there be play on brand new hubs?

i want to ride tomorrow morning (in 6 hours time) and I am wary about doing damage. Do i need a special tool?

perhaps this is the cause of the squeaks when out of the saddle?


SPlash

[mktng]

New things just settle after a few hundred kms. It's normal. I'm going to say.. Yes.. You need the king tool. I did. I had the same little play side to side with skewers tightened down. If you can't get it fixed ASAP, you can ride it... But over a long period of time it'll wear the bearings faster... Could possibly damage the hub too. I rode my hubs with a slight play for 100-200kms before addressing the problem.... Only because the king hub tool wasn't easy to find in town.

[Splash]

i have just read the manual online and it is not clear how it can be done whilst the hubs are already mounted into the wheel set.

i may cancel the ride tomorrow morning now. :-(

I do not have this special tool and need to order one.

how do you tighten the play with hub already installed in the wheel set?


SPlash

[cfox]

great!

the play is there after the quick release is tightened.

why should there be play on brand new hubs?

i want to ride tomorrow morning (in 6 hours time) and I am wary about doing damage. Do i need a special tool?

perhaps this is the cause of the squeaks when out of the saddle?


SPlash

The hubs are packed with a lot of grease and use heavy seals. When the extra grease squeezes out and the seals loosen up a bit, you get play. It's just the hubs breaking in. And, no, you don't need any special tools, just a set of allen keys. The only tool is the cup holder for the front hub, but the hubs can be adjusted easier without the thing. Again, all of this is online on King's website. The downloadable hub manual explains how to tighten the hubs better than any of us can.

[Splash]

thanks.

i understand these hubs need 50 + hours to break in before they work at their best.

Your thoughts on this?

Could this play be a source of squeak noise when pumping hard and out of the saddle?


SPlash

[AngryScientist]

The hubs are packed with a lot of grease and use heavy seals. When the extra grease squeezes out and the seals loosen up a bit, you get play. It's just the hubs breaking in. And, no, you don't need any special tools, just a set of allen keys. The only tool is the cup holder for the front hub, but the hubs can be adjusted easier without the thing. Again, all of this is online on King's website. The downloadable hub manual explains how to tighten the hubs better than any of us can.

correct.

i've got two pairs of King R45's and both needed to be adjusted after a few hundred miles. if you have any mechanical competency you can do the job in less than 3 minutes with a set of allen keys.

[cfox]

i have just read the manual online and it is not clear how it can be done whilst the hubs are already mounted into the wheel set.

i may cancel the ride tomorrow morning now. :-(

I do not have this special tool and need to order one.

how do you tighten the play with hub already installed in the wheel set?


SPlash

Huh? It's easy. The rear hub can be adjusted while the wheel is on the bike. Loosen the tiny allen bolt on the split donut shaped ring on the non-drive side, then stick the allen key into the slot next to the bolt, turn the donut ring a bit tighter, then tighten the allen bolt again. Check for play. If none, go ride, if it still has play, do over until the ring is tight enough not to have play. Don't just honk down on it, though, you will over-tighten the ring onto the bearings.

front hub. take the wheel off. stick 5mm allen keys (i think) into each side of the hub. Loosen the lock ring, turn the adjustment cup (the one with the grooves in it) 1/8 turn, the re-tighten the lock ring. Put it back on the bike and check for play. Re-do if you still have play. All of this should take 5-10 minutes.

[Splash]

Thanks guys. Will spend some time on this tomorrow. I think i will right the next morning now. The weekend is here and i will spend more time on this tomorrow morning.

Bloody interesting though! Again - your assistance is really much appreciated.

Check out this Youtube video on running in Chris King Hubs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ9D-V_O3pE


Splash

[mktng]

Ah. I needed a tool for my rear classic hub.

[Splash]

do you guys use the little springs for each side of the skewer?

Or do you remove them?

What is their purpose?


Splash

[firerescuefin]

Huh? It's easy. The rear hub can be adjusted while the wheel is on the bike. Loosen the tiny allen bolt on the split donut shaped ring on the non-drive side, then stick the allen key into the slot next to the bolt, turn the donut ring a bit tighter, then tighten the allen bolt again. Check for play. If none, go ride, if it still has play, do over until the ring is tight enough not to have play. Don't just honk down on it, though, you will over-tighten the ring onto the bearings.

front hub. take the wheel off. stick 5mm allen keys (i think) into each side of the hub. Loosen the lock ring, turn the adjustment cup (the one with the grooves in it) 1/8 turn, the re-tighten the lock ring. Put it back on the bike and check for play. Re-do if you still have play. All of this should take 5-10 minutes.

^ This...it should take you no time...No special tool necessary.

[mktng]

Hm. Maybe my lock ring or bearing cups were a bit seized. My bad for the bad info.

[cfox]

do you guys use the little springs for each side of the skewer?

Or do you remove them?

What is their purpose?


Splash

yes, leave them! they are there to move the nuts away from the dropout when you loosen the quick release. They make removing and installing the wheel much easier/faster.

[shovelhd]

Splash should buy a bicycle maintenance book or spend a couple hours on Sheldon's site. Time well spent.

[11.4]

You don't need anything more than allen keys for any Chris King hub. On the Classic, the rear is handled just like the front -- two allen keys to loosen the axle, adjust, and then re-tighten. The R45 has the little allen bolt that makes it a bit easier, but it wasn't hard to begin with.

One thing: What does sometimes happen is that when spoke tension is added to your hub, the shell can stretch slightly. King usually gets the bearing cartridge outside diameter just right so this stretching doesn't make the cartridge bearing loose, but sometimes that does happen. The bearing is held in by the axle assembly and locking nuts, but it can cause the wheel to rock slightly. If you loosen the axle, the bearing may even fall out if this is going on. It's easy to detect, it isn't very frequent, but if you tighten up the hub as described in this thread and you still have play, don't rule this out. Fixing it is usually a matter of shipping the wheel to CK.

[Splash]

ok - done the rear hub.

the front hub does not allow me to insert any allen keys.

check out these photos.....

what to use then?

splash

[dave thompson]

Huh? It's easy. The rear hub can be adjusted while the wheel is on the bike. Loosen the tiny allen bolt on the split donut shaped ring on the non-drive side, then stick the allen key into the slot next to the bolt, turn the donut ring a bit tighter, then tighten the allen bolt again. Check for play. If none, go ride, if it still has play, do over until the ring is tight enough not to have play. Don't just honk down on it, though, you will over-tighten the ring onto the bearings.

front hub. take the wheel off. stick 5mm allen keys (i think) into each side of the hub. Loosen the lock ring, turn the adjustment cup (the one with the grooves in it) 1/8 turn, the re-tighten the lock ring. Put it back on the bike and check for play. Re-do if you still have play. All of this should take 5-10 minutes.
^ this ^ the 5mm Allen key goes right into the end of the hub, it's shown in your pic.

It would help you immensely if you would pay a good mechanic to show you how to do things. Also if possible buy a copy of the Park Tool book of Bicycle Repair ( http://www.parktool.com/product/big-blue-book-of-bicycle-repair-3rd-edition-BBB-3 )it's one of the very best available and gives precise instructions on tuning and maintenance of the components of your bike.

[Splash]

ahhh. of course. sorry.

i was looking for a similar allen key hole in the side of the cup - like the rear hub

great links.


thanks dave.

splash

[Black Dog]

Did you download the manual from the Chris King web site?

[Splash]

not yet - but i will.

i did review it, but did not click - no excuse - sorry.

splash

[Black Dog]

My question was not meant with anger. Just curious. Not all manuals are used friendly.

[ergott]

Pro tip.

Get some washers form the hardware store (if you don't already have some) that can take the place of the dropout ends. Then tighten the quick release with them in place to check hub adjustment with the QR load on. You will be able to detect any excess drag from being overtightened that way better than just spinning the wheel.

[Splash]

My question was not meant with anger. Just curious. Not all manuals are used friendly.

no worries, i did find this manual a bit awkward and less user friendly thank others...

splash

[Splash]

Pro tip.

Get some washers form the hardware store (if you don't already have some) that can take the place of the dropout ends. Then tighten the quick release with them in place to check hub adjustment with the QR load on. You will be able to detect any excess drag from being overtightened that way better than just spinning the wheel.

interesting - will do. could over tightened quick release be a cause of creaks, squeaks?


SPlash

[Vamoots58]

seven sets of wheels built around CK hubs, I have found them to be absolutely indestructible when properly serviced. I own both the R45 and Classic hubs tool kits, and while they were not cheap at about $160 each, they pay for themselves quickly. The tools are as well thought out and made as the hubs and the complete breakdown, service and reassembly is not particularly difficult. I have seen many posts on similar forums bemoaning the need to adjust CK bearings and the cost of the tool kit. Odd to me that every other high quality, mechanical system we own requires regular service and most don't complain, but have to service your hubs and...

[ergott]

interesting - will do. could over tightened quick release be a cause of creaks, squeaks?


SPlash

Probably not from any adjustment issues. A quick release is more likely the culprit.

[Splash]

how could a quick release be the culprit of squeaks, etc?

SPlash

[mktng]

Squeaking could one of few things. First Haha. Make sure it's the wheel making noise. Second. Check for dry spokes/nipple contact points.

[ergott]

Some don't clamp tight enough and squeak at the dropout interface. Sometimes the axle if not greased can creak. A good Shimano or Campagnolo skewer will solve that.

[jbay]

Some don't clamp tight enough and squeak at the dropout interface. Sometimes the axle if not greased can creak. A good Shimano or Campagnolo skewer will solve that.The smooth (i.e. non-serrated) end-caps on King front hubs (Classic model at least; I haven't used an R45 front hub) can squeak when used with aluminium dropouts. Sadly, not even a Shimano skewer will help with that. Only grease will do.

-- John

[11.4]

Dura Ace skewers in Chris King hubs are a rather tight fit. The skewer can creak against the hex hole in the ends of the hub. I've found that sometimes the skewer needs a little bit of very fine carbide paper to knock the ridges off the extrusion. That's just to get it to slide through the hub, but it also tends to make some squeaks go away.

Also, bearing cartridges can squeak against the hub shell. And if you don't have the front hub (or the rear classic hub) tightened quite enough, the locknut will squeak against the adjustable race. All of that benefits from some lubrication.

BTW, King has some very nice clear YouTube videos, most of them also posted on their website. For practically anything including a complete dismantling, they make it very easy.

[oldpotatoe]

seven sets of wheels built around CK hubs, I have found them to be absolutely indestructible when properly serviced. I own both the R45 and Classic hubs tool kits, and while they were not cheap at about $160 each, they pay for themselves quickly. The tools are as well thought out and made as the hubs and the complete breakdown, service and reassembly is not particularly difficult. I have seen many posts on similar forums bemoaning the need to adjust CK bearings and the cost of the tool kit. Odd to me that every other high quality, mechanical system we own requires regular service and most don't complain, but have to service your hubs and...

Since we are talking about bicycle hubs. I think some(and me too) bemoan the fact that CK hubs, for a bicycle hub, is comparitivly, very complicated and proprietary, where many other bicycle hubs, also very long lasting, are not.

Record hub to OVH are 2 5mm allen, a 17mm open end and a 2.5mm allen..also well thought out tools, about $20. Bearings are just 5/32 bearing balls..nothing unique(isn't one of the rear CK hub bearings like $70??)..

CK hubs are beautiful, work great, and come in colors..just really complicated for a bike hub, IMHO.

[jbay]

Dura Ace skewers in Chris King hubs are a rather tight fit. The skewer can creak against the hex hole in the ends of the hub. I've found that sometimes the skewer needs a little bit of very fine carbide paper to knock the ridges off the extrusion. That's just to get it to slide through the hub, but it also tends to make some squeaks go away.Oh good. It's not just me. I asked King support about exactly that issue, thinking I might have some end-caps whose interior dimension was slightly off and they said they were unaware of such an issue.

However, I attacked it the other way, using a rat tail file to slightly enlarge the inside of the end caps.

-- John

[11.4]

Since we are talking about bicycle hubs. I think some(and me too) bemoan the fact that CK hubs, for a bicycle hub, is comparitivly, very complicated and proprietary, where many other bicycle hubs, also very long lasting, are not.

Record hub to OVH are 2 5mm allen, a 17mm open end and a 2.5mm allen..also well thought out tools, about $20. Bearings are just 5/32 bearing balls..nothing unique(isn't one of the rear CK hub bearings like $70??)..

CK hubs are beautiful, work great, and come in colors..just really complicated for a bike hub, IMHO.

If we had to apply this rule about being complicated to the personalities of people on this forum, we'd have to kill the bunch of ya.

I don't really see it as complicated. It works really well, it's super reliable, and opening it and cleaning it is as simple as it gets. It takes a specialty tool to clean a 7700 free hub, but with two allen keys you can pop off the CK free hub and then just spray it out with TriFlow. And even if you don't, it just never fails. Everything is both replaceable and repairable. I don't mind that kind of complexity. I've watched so many hubs suffer from design flaws -- Dura Ace 7800, a couple Tune hubs, most any hub that Zipp has ever used, and -- the saddest of all -- Alchemy's UL hub. I've never seen anything like that from the boys in Portland.

[11.4]

Oh good. It's not just me. I asked King support about exactly that issue, thinking I might have some end-caps whose interior dimension was slightly off and they said they were unaware of such an issue.

However, I attacked it the other way, using a rat tail file to slightly enlarge the inside of the end caps.

-- John

This is one way to do it, but you are rounding out the hex hole that you need to open up the hub. When you look closely at a Dura Ace skewer shaft (almost any vintage), you can see that they are drawn and have one or two fairly sharp miniature ridges running lengthwise as a result of the extrusion. Not sure why they have to have those, but they do. You just knock those off without taking off any of the metal of the shaft itself, and they fit fine.

[jbay]

I don't really see it as complicated. It works really well, it's super reliable, and opening it and cleaning it is as simple as it gets.I'll add that CK hubs are the only ones I've used that - touch metaphorical wood - have held up to tandem (ab)use. We've eaten Phil Wood and Hope(less) for breakfast and have seen other brands fail under other teams.

I have avoided Campag hubs since the (large) flange on my C-Record record hub cracked in less than 6 months of use and Campag didn't want to know.

-- John

[jbay]

This is one way to do it, but you are rounding out the hex hole that you need to open up the hub. When you look closely at a Dura Ace skewer shaft (almost any vintage), you can see that they are drawn and have one or two fairly sharp miniature ridges running lengthwise as a result of the extrusion. Not sure why they have to have those, but they do. You just knock those off without taking off any of the metal of the shaft itself, and they fit fine.Thanks for the pointer. I didn't notice ridges in the skewer shaft before, but I'll look more carefully next time.

After my own modification, there was still plenty of meat left for an allen-key to engage, but "slightly" does bear emphasising.

-- John

[Splash]

I read that CK hubs are just run in at around 50 hours before they perform at their best.

Is this correct?

Any thoughts on this process for running in the hubs?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ9D-V_O3pE



SPlash

[dave thompson]

I read that CK hubs are just run in at around 50 hours before they perform at their best.

Is this correct?

Any thoughts on this process for running in the hubs?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ9D-V_O3pE



SPlash
Just ride yer bike!

[11.4]

I read that CK hubs are just run in at around 50 hours before they perform at their best.

Is this correct?

Any thoughts on this process for running in the hubs?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ9D-V_O3pE



SPlash



I think you add a zero to that number.

But you are obsessing. If your hubs are loose at all, you'll feel the brake blocks rubbing on climbs. And you can spot it instantly when the wheels are installed on your bike.

[Vamoots58]

Can't argue about the relative complexity of the ring drive
assembly versus others like spring & pawl. That being said, for my own experience, with the regular service, I have yet to have had occasion to need to replace a bearing. I have replaced the rubber seals and compression rings, but not the bearings. The question becomes whether the durability and function of the design represents an appropriate return on money and time investment. For me, the simple answer has been yes.

Since we are talking about bicycle hubs. I think some(and me too) bemoan the fact that CK hubs, for a bicycle hub, is comparitivly, very complicated and proprietary, where many other bicycle hubs, also very long lasting, are not.

Record hub to OVH are 2 5mm allen, a 17mm open end and a 2.5mm allen..also well thought out tools, about $20. Bearings are just 5/32 bearing balls..nothing unique(isn't one of the rear CK hub bearings like $70??)..

CK hubs are beautiful, work great, and come in colors..just really complicated for a bike hub, IMHO.

[cat6]

Huh? It's easy. The rear hub can be adjusted while the wheel is on the bike. Loosen the tiny allen bolt on the split donut shaped ring on the non-drive side, then stick the allen key into the slot next to the bolt, turn the donut ring a bit tighter, then tighten the allen bolt again. Check for play. If none, go ride, if it still has play, do over until the ring is tight enough not to have play. Don't just honk down on it, though, you will over-tighten the ring onto the bearings.

front hub. take the wheel off. stick 5mm allen keys (i think) into each side of the hub. Loosen the lock ring, turn the adjustment cup (the one with the grooves in it) 1/8 turn, the re-tighten the lock ring. Put it back on the bike and check for play. Re-do if you still have play. All of this should take 5-10 minutes.

just followed this for same issue. thanks!

[estuche]

a new set of king hubs will always develop play after a few rides. A tiny bit of play is ok before the quick release is tightened, but there should not be any play once the wheels are tightened into the frame. Don't ride around with super loose hubs; you'll either smoke the bearings or the freehub will slip. They are easy to adjust. Go to king's website and download the hub user manual; it explains all this stuff.

this!

[jwess1234]

If you, will be servicing your own hubs, I recommend the CK manuals and this is also helpful: http://www.embrocationmagazine.com/online/clean-ring-drive