Moved cleats back. Move saddle?

[makoti]

I asked this in the thread about foot pain, but didn't get a response so I'll try it on its own.
Like the poster in that thread, I have problems on longer, hillier rides with my toes hurting (both feet). 90% of the time, no trouble. Just when I get much over 70 miles or lots of climbing. Sidis. Used them for years & years.
I've tried moving my cleats (speedplay. Again, used for years) back. Didn't have much room, but I can feel a difference.
My question: Should I move the saddle by the same amount? If so, how? I am thinking up & forward, but am not sure. We're talking maybe 2-3mm.
Thanks.

[macaroon]

I would probably leave the fore/aft position. You may find your saddle needs to come down though, moving your cleats back effectively shortens the "reach" of your pedal stroke slightly. And with cleats further rearward, you may find you're more likely to pedal with a slightyl flatter foot.

[roydyates]

Maybe your feet are swelling and restricting your circulation? Did you try wearing your shoes extra loose?

[Black Dog]

For the sake of a few mm I doubt that you would notice a difference in terms of set back. If you are going to move the saddle match the distance that you moved your cleats (cleats back = saddle forward).

[rauce]

Move your saddle forward the same distance you move your cleats back.

[mtechnica]

i would probably leave the fore/aft position. You may find your saddle needs to come down though, moving your cleats back effectively shortens the "reach" of your pedal stroke slightly. And with cleats further rearward, you may find you're more likely to pedal with a slightyl flatter foot.

+1

[unterhausen]

I would probably try moving the seat forward a little bit before I would try lowering it.

[makoti]

Thanks everyone. Kind of what I thought (although for some reason I had it in my head the seat would come up). I'll ride it a bit more to see if it feels like it need adjustments.
+1 to the feeling a bit flat-footed, though. I noticed that right away.
I don't think it's constriction. The shoes are very well broken in & I've ridden the same model for years. It's only on long or really hilly stuff that the toes go.
We'll see. Thanks again.

[Splash]

it would be good to know what happens to our feet 3/4 into long rides - why don't we get feet soreness at the start of the journey? what else can be done to delay the onset of the foot soreness besides changing cleat position and seat height?

i read that if you lower your saddle you place more body weight on you rear end and less weight placed on the feet.

i am guessing that moving your saddle down would also reduce optimal crank angle of your leg - hence power output.

i also believe pedalling technique has an impact on foot soreness. some great tips on and explanation on pedalling efficiency at .09 secs into this youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z04uoO7U_SA

changing cleat position may well also impact on pedalling efficiency.


let us know how you get on....


splash

[giordana93]

If you were maxed out on seat height before change, you will want to drop seat a hair, like 3mm. Fore aft is not as simple b/c of balance feedback, i.e. finding that point where you can take weight off your hands but not be so far back that you cannot put weight into the pedal stroke. This changes with cleat position (as it does when trying to balance yourself standing on ball of foot versus heel). I'll go against the above suggestions and say you might even want to push saddle back to find that point, because the rearward cleats encourage more of a rearward grinding pedal style than a spinning nose of saddle style. Completely ymmv, just don't change too much at once.

[giordana93]

Shouldn't be too long before ti-d chimes in wrt pedaling efficiency, etc. the video posted above is a bit dated as far as current theories go

[Splash]

wow - keen to learn what the current theory on pedalling technique is...


splash

[giordana93]

Sorry. Didn't mean to imply there was sth. terribly wrong with the video, just that the whole "scrape your shoes" thing has been around since lemond's book in the 80's and it is not like he originated it. Otoh, there really are a huge number of studies about pedaling by academics. Their biggest weakness is they must isolate just a static pedaling situation and technique whereas in the real world, every ride has multiple, dynamic changes in technique, based on cadence, grades, sprint vs time trial vs cruising, in saddle, out, etc. or, for that matter, cleat placement

[Pyramor]

Take a look at Steve Hogg's website: http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/FAQ/ There is a lot of great information on bike fit including saddle height, position and cleat position. Since I have been following his advice I have resolved several issues dealing with pain and numbness. He has nearly 30 years experience in bike fitting and his theories seem valid and effective.

[makoti]

Well, hell. I thought I posted this hours ago...
I was surprised with how big a difference in feel moving the cleats back 2-3mm made. The shoe, the pedal stroke both feel different. It feels a bit choppy right now, but after three rides, it is starting to feel "normal" again. I had never felt that much difference when I moved the saddle. Up/down/back/forward - none of it made me just feel different like this did.

[makoti]

Take a look at Steve Hogg's website: http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/FAQ/ There is a lot of great information on bike fit including saddle height, position and cleat position. Since I have been following his advice I have resolved several issues dealing with pain and numbness. He has nearly 30 years experience in bike fitting and his theories seem valid and effective.

Have you tried the midfoot setup? That just seems so...wrong. But I'm learning that a lot of stuff I thought I "knew" is not quite as correct as it used to be. ;)

[Ti Designs]

There really are a huge number of studies about pedaling by academics. Their biggest weakness is they must isolate just a static pedaling situation and technique whereas in the real world, every ride has multiple, dynamic changes in technique, based on cadence, grades, sprint vs time trial vs cruising, in saddle, out, etc. or, for that matter, cleat placement

They really should print this on the header of every study...

I've read countless studies of cycling dynamics and almost all of them start with a question that has no one answer, so the outcome is pointless. Let's take a simple machine - two binary inputs, four possible outputs. Some of the outputs fall under the heading of "don't care", but you get the point, it's more complicated than a single answer. The human body on a bike is a billion times more complicated than a 4 state machine, you can't boil it down to a single answer (no, not even EPO) My method is to take an intelligent look at first the structure (the skeletal system of the rider), then at the large muscle groups which act on the system.

[Splash]

ti designs.

can you advise what improvements can be made on the pedalling technique shown in this link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z04uoO7U_SA


splash

[shovelhd]

I know my foot position and pedaling motion change depending on what I am doing. Cruising in a crit, hammering off the front, doing steady state intervals, sprinting, climbing, or just smelling the roses, they are all a little bit different.

What the OP should strive for is balance and comfort to be as good or better than before the change.

[Ti Designs]

can you advise what improvements can be made on the pedalling technique shown in this link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z04uoO7U_SA

Just getting a better idea of what's happening would be a good start. Let's start with her fit - she's outside of her range of motion. Watch her pedal, notice every time the pedal gets to the far point from her hip, say around 5:00, her hip gets pulled down and forward. This is called a pull reflex, it's a defense mechanism that muscles have, yank on them and they pull back. This would be fine if she were walking and tried to overextend her foot, because her tibialis would fire and her foot would pull back. When you're walking, when your foot is off the ground it's free to go anywhere. That fails on a bike, the pull reflex works the same way, but the foot is attached to a pedal which is attached to a crank which is attached to a frame... The next moving part up the chain is her hip. A little tug on the hip doesn't seem like much, 80 tugs per minute for a few hours sounds horrible.

Much of the video suffers from the same problem as most coaching - you "just do it". In the very early going he says that most cyclists get the push down phase right. Really? Most of the time when I'm doing a fitting I'll stop the pedal at 3:00 and ask the rider to push down. Then I'll ask them which muscle they're using. Most people are baffled by this. They've done it many, many times, yet they've given no though to what they've been doing this whole time. Pay attention, learn what it is you're doing, then ask if it's the right thing. Most people push down on the pedal at 3:00 by firing their quads. The vastus lateralis extends the leg at the knee. From any cycling position I can think of, that's not pushing down. it's pushing forward. Pushing down would be extending at the hip using the glutes.

The video is hard for me to watch. It reminds me of the old Woody Allen line "those who can't do, teach. those who can't teach, teach gym". Her fit isn't good, her muscle control within the drills needs work, his explanations are weak... As I'm recording my own video series, I find myself asking if mine aren't as bad if not worse.

[Tony T]

I asked this in the thread about foot pain, but didn't get a response so I'll try it on its own.
Like the poster in that thread, I have problems on longer, hillier rides with my toes hurting (both feet). 90% of the time, no trouble. Just when I get much over 70 miles or lots of climbing. Sidis. Used them for years & years.

I also have Sidi, and used to get pain only in my right big toe only after about 40mi of riding.
This solved my problem (I have the older version): http://www.specialized.com/us/en/ftr/shoes/road-shoes/body-geometry-sl-footbeds

[Splash]

Tony T.

I too have pain in my right big toe and use Sidis.

Why do think these footbeds you posted helped solve your pain when i assume you used both footbeds (one for each foot)?

Did you need to stand on the "Arch-O-Meter" at a Specialized dealer to determine the optimum level of foot contour like what the link states?


Splash

[giordana93]

Just getting a better idea of what's happening would be a good start. Let's start with her fit - she's outside of her range of motion. Watch her pedal, notice every time the pedal gets to the far point from her hip, say around 5:00, her hip gets pulled down and forward. This is called a pull reflex, it's a defense mechanism that muscles have, yank on them and they pull back. This would be fine if she were walking and tried to overextend her foot, because her tibialis would fire and her foot would pull back. When you're walking, when your foot is off the ground it's free to go anywhere. That fails on a bike, the pull reflex works the same way, but the foot is attached to a pedal which is attached to a crank which is attached to a frame... The next moving part up the chain is her hip. A little tug on the hip doesn't seem like much, 80 tugs per minute for a few hours sounds horrible.

Much of the video suffers from the same problem as most coaching - you "just do it". In the very early going he says that most cyclists get the push down phase right. Really? Most of the time when I'm doing a fitting I'll stop the pedal at 3:00 and ask the rider to push down. Then I'll ask them which muscle they're using. Most people are baffled by this. They've done it many, many times, yet they've given no though to what they've been doing this whole time. Pay attention, learn what it is you're doing, then ask if it's the right thing. Most people push down on the pedal at 3:00 by firing their quads. The vastus lateralis extends the leg at the knee. From any cycling position I can think of, that's not pushing down. it's pushing forward. Pushing down would be extending at the hip using the glutes.

The video is hard for me to watch. It reminds me of the old Woody Allen line "those who can't do, teach. those who can't teach, teach gym". Her fit isn't good, her muscle control within the drills needs work, his explanations are weak... As I'm recording my own video series, I find myself asking if mine aren't as bad if not worse.

Finally the voice of reason. I must admit that when I first made my snarky remark about the video I had not even watched the whole thing. Just seeing the teacher, his "model student" and the dated diagram, I had seen enough. Then feeling guilty after Splash's reply, I watched the whole thing and felt much like Ti, as in it's a good thing youtube is not peer-reviewed. Her position is off, her bike set up is is downright dangerous (if ever there were an argument for needing a set back post for a given rider, she is it), and that final "attack pedaling" sequence is just wrong. Watch any good powerful rider and note how quiet their upper body is. Yes, some folks have a slight rocking rythm in certain situations, but it is not something to consciously strive for and surely not out of the saddle, jeez talk about wasted motion.

By the way, would like to keep thread a little on topic, as my foot has also been an issue the last few years, across multiple shoes and pedal systems...

[Splash]

No worries Giordana93 - I was not offended at all. Great input.

It is great to peer review this your tube as it now appears obvious of what not to do.

Ti Designs - To paraphrase your statement - we should not push down at 3.00 position with our quads, but instead we should push down by extending at the hip using the glutes.

Can you provide a video showing this movement?

At what clock position should we stop pushing using this method? What happens next?


Splash

[Tony T]

Tony T.
I too have pain in my right big toe and use Sidis.
Why do think these footbeds you posted helped solve your pain when i assume you used both footbeds (one for each foot)?
Did you need to stand on the "Arch-O-Meter" at a Specialized dealer to determine the optimum level of foot contour like what the link states?
Splash

I just read a post here a year or so ago about the Specialized footbeds being better and more comfortable than the ones that came with Sidi and decided to give it a try. I just got the Red ones on-line (didn't bother with going to a dealer for the Arch-O-Meter).

This was just something new for me to try (I always like to try new things), and wasn't for the big-toe pain (I had tried moving the cleats and shims, but didn't help with the big-toe Pain) As the pain was minor, and only came about after 40 miles (I usually ride anywhere from 30mi-75mi), I just learned to live with it — but low and behold, with the Specialized Red footbeds, no more Big Toe pain, even after a 75 mile ride. Now this might not work for you, but even if it doesn't, the Specialized inserts are much better than what Sidi uses. If you have a Specialized Dealer near you, then might as well try the Arch-O-Meter, if not and you have a normal arch, just go with the Reds (for $30, worth it)

[Splash]

Great tip = Thanks Tony T - Will do it!

What is it out our right big toes? Grrrrrrr - Why does the left big toe not hurt as well?


Splash

[Tony T]

Great tip = Thanks Tony T - Will do it!
What is it out our right big toes? Grrrrrrr - Why does the left big toe not hurt as well?
Splash

BTW, for me it was also only one toe (think it was the right, but been a year, and not sure, maybe it was the left)

[Splash]

Well, it is my right big toe in my case.

Do you place any stuffing inside your sides when not in use - to provide a healthy space inside when the time does come to use them?


Splash

[Tony T]

Well, it is my right big toe in my case.
Do you place any stuffing inside your sidis when not in use - to provide a healthy space inside when the time does come to use them?
Splash

No, not even in the winter when I can go a month or more w/o a ride.

[Splash]

Ti Designs.

Do you disagree with anything state din this link below:

https://www.bikejames.com/strength/which-muscles-are-used-during-the-pedal-stroke/

?


Splash

[makoti]

Tony T - Thanks for the link.
I was actually thinking of going into RoadRunner Sports near me & seeing about footbeds. They have Superfeet that they mold (or, just stick in an oven until softer & it forms to your foot). Some are supposed to be "low volume" for cycling & such. Has anyone ever tried these?

[Tony T]

Tony T - Thanks for the link.
I was actually thinking of going into RoadRunner Sports near me & seeing about footbeds. They have Superfeet that they mold (or, just stick in an oven until softer & it forms to your foot). Some are supposed to be "low volume" for cycling & such. Has anyone ever tried these?

I tried Superfeet (but not molded as you described) and hated them. Some guys like them. I prefer Specialized.

[kykr13]

The Specialized footbed made a big difference to me too. One day I just started having a problem at around 30mi, and that's all I needed. By their description I guessed on blue and it worked. For me I think the metatarsal bump was the biggest help.


I actually just got the new ones and will ride with them tomorrow. New shoes, probably time to replace these too. Sounds like the new are designed the same as the old, but sold without shims that I didn't need anyway. Going to find out shortly...

[makoti]

The Specialized footbed made a big difference to me too. One day I just started having a problem at around 30mi, and that's all I needed. By their description I guessed on blue and it worked. For me I think the metatarsal bump was the biggest help.


I actually just got the new ones and will ride with them tomorrow. New shoes, probably time to replace these too. Sounds like the new are designed the same as the old, but sold without shims that I didn't need anyway. Going to find out shortly...

Off to the LBS tomorrow to see if what they have will work. Specialized Blue. Can't wait to try the Arch-O-Meter! Coooollll... ;)

[Splash]

http://thesportfactory.com/site/trainingnews/Pedal_Triangles_to_Ride_Faster_253.shtml

here is a great link...

splash

[Pyramor]

Have you tried the midfoot setup? That just seems so...wrong. But I'm learning that a lot of stuff I thought I "knew" is not quite as correct as it used to be. ;)
No, I moved the cleats (Speedplay 4 hole shoes) as far back as they would go. It helped alot, especially since I am anything but a sprinter. Would like to try mid-foot position but that would take a custom shoe. Hogg intends to design/produce an extended cleat plate for more rearward movement, but hasn't gotten around to it yet.

[phutterman]

Just as another datapoint, I moved my cleats back several mm a few months ago, and (to my surprise) didn't really feel anything especially different with regard to pedal stroke.