I feel so sorry for him . . .

[BumbleBeeDave]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/06/news/leipheimer-people-dont-want-hear-say-dont-blame_332160

BBD

[Elefantino]

The headline is the story. Period.

[earlfoss]

What a piece of trash he is. From doping as early as the early 90's to racing unsanctioned events while serving a suspension for doping, and the list goes on and on and on.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brando]

Don't know Levi, maybe he's garbage. But from what I've seen, he's a decent dude who had a decent career that's run it's course. Guys are still doping and winning, he obviously's not, so that's the end of his road. Sounds like he still got a lot out of cycling with his fondo, volunteering, movie, wife and farm living up in Sonoma. If you can pity all that, you must be a big hoss.

[pdmtong]

Levi, IMHO, is NOT a decent dude. I have run into him 4x, twice after his namesake fondo ended and twice at sea otter. all four times, there was hardly anyone around, no where else to be, and he was so irritated to give me or my daughter the time of day for a picture, all this when he was at the peak of his popularity. Really, you can't spare 15 seconds? I get that folks in the spotlight get tired of that but given the circumstances, it wouldn't have been that hard to engage a fan let alone a kid.

Also, does the guy even bother to ride down the line of the folks supporting his Fondo before the start? Noooooooo...just stays up front with all the 5 hour finishers and you never see the guy.

And lastly, he eeks out a "confession" to the santa rosa press democrat once his hand is forced? like George, both made a ton of money and have comfy lives. but, like George, I was once a fan but now his poster is long gone off the wall.

as for the fondo, GREAT ride but I will NEVER ride it again. the ride no longer sells out in hours...probably more due to participant fatigue than levi apathy. I get he makes no money from it, but I'm done with my Levi support.

[54ny77]

"VN: The 2012 edition of your grand fondo was held right before the USADA report came out; you had almost a full year before the 2013 edition to brace yourself for any potential backlash, as the namesake of the event. What was that like?

LL: We sent out an email to everyone who has ever done the fondo, and I personally answered a lot of the replies...."

---------------

For some reason, I never got a reply when I responded to that email....

Like pdmtong said, he sang the tune once he faced the prospect of a different kind of kit--a state-supplied, one-size-fits-all version.

http://mychinaconnection.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/sing-like-a-canary.jpg

[El Chaba]

Levi, IMHO, is NOT a decent dude. I have run into him 4x, twice after his namesake fondo ended and twice at sea otter. all four times, there was hardly anyone around, no where else to be, and he was so irritated to give me or my daughter the time of day for a picture, all this when he was at the peak of his popularity. Really, you can't spare 15 seconds? I get that folks in the spotlight get tired of that but given the circumstances, it wouldnt have been that hard to engage a fan let alone a kid.

Also, does the guy even bother to ride down the line of the folks supporting his Fondo before the start? Noooooooo...just stays up front with all the 5 hour finishers and you never see the guy.

And lastly, he eeks out a "confession" to the santa rosa press democrat once his hand is forced? like george, both made a ton of money and have comfy lives. but, like george, I was once a fan but no his poster is long gone off the wall.

as for the fondo, GREAT ride but I will NEVER ride it again.


I will confirm your experiences with Levi...I have had two similar ones. A$$hole.

[eippo1]

Just thought I'd leave this here:
http://www.fatcyclist.com/2011/09/18/a-letter-from-odessa-gunn/

Also, Odessa is still hot, but what's with the Peta shirt? They're like the tea party animal rights equivalent. Crazy might get attention, but it never gains mainstream support.

P.S. But posting the link, I'm not actually supporting the guy. Always heard he was kind of a douche.

[earlfoss]

If the story of doping in the women's peloton in the same era ever comes out, I'd bet there's some pretty wacky stuff that was happening in that scene. Odessa Gunn, Dede Barry, Lynn Gaggioli, Genvieve Jeanson, etc etc. I've heard talk over the years that at least in the USA it was just as dirty as the men's peloton.

That's a side note though. Odessa was a sight to behold at the St. Paul capitol crit back in the mid 90's. WOW. She was quite a looker back then.

[charliedid]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/06/news/leipheimer-people-dont-want-hear-say-dont-blame_332160

BBD

Why take it so personally? Do you feel it somehow puts you in a bad light as a "cyclist"?

If we would just stop idolizing professional athletes, we would all be better off.

[charliedid]

If the story of doping in the women's peloton in the same era ever comes out, I'd bet there's some pretty wacky stuff that was happening in that scene. Odessa Gunn, Dede Barry, Lynn Gaggioli, Genvieve Jeanson, etc etc. I've heard talk over the years that at least in the USA it was just as dirty as the men's peloton.

That's a side note though. Odessa was a sight to behold at the St. Paul capitol crit back in the mid 90's. WOW. She was quite a looker back then.

Really? What she looked like is your lasting memory?

···

[eippo1]

Really? What she looked like is your lasting memory?

···

I belive the comment was rather tongue-in-cheek given the sentence and goes with the playful nature of this whole thread.

[charliedid]

Levi, IMHO, is NOT a decent dude. I have run into him 4x, twice after his namesake fondo ended and twice at sea otter. all four times, there was hardly anyone around, no where else to be, and he was so irritated to give me or my daughter the time of day for a picture, all this when he was at the peak of his popularity. Really, you can't spare 15 seconds? I get that folks in the spotlight get tired of that but given the circumstances, it wouldn't have been that hard to engage a fan let alone a kid.

Also, does the guy even bother to ride down the line of the folks supporting his Fondo before the start? Noooooooo...just stays up front with all the 5 hour finishers and you never see the guy.

And lastly, he eeks out a "confession" to the santa rosa press democrat once his hand is forced? like George, both made a ton of money and have comfy lives. but, like George, I was once a fan but now his poster is long gone off the wall.

as for the fondo, GREAT ride but I will NEVER ride it again. the ride no longer sells out in hours...probably more due to participant fatigue than levi apathy. I get he makes no money from it, but I'm done with my Levi support.

Levi doesn't owe you anything.

If you were hoping for a one on one personal moment and didn't get it, so what? Standing around in a group of people in those situations is no way to judge a person.

When you DID support him, how did you feel about his PED use at the time?

So, Levi doesn't want to be your friend, who cares?

[charliedid]

I belive the comment was rather tongue-in-cheek given the sentence and goes with the playful nature of this whole thread.

Hardly

[54ny77]

The public owes him nothing either.

He made his bed, now he gets to sleep with a hot wife and 22 varieties of animals.

I can never understand these guys who all want to "give back" to the sport.

How about giving back all the prize money and contracts to guys they cheated over the years who weren't doping? The stove pictured in his house probably cost more than the salary of a bottom rung domestic pro.

Levi doesn't owe you anything.

If you were hoping for a one on one personal moment and didn't get it, so what? Standing around in a group of people in those situations is no way to judge a person.

When you DID support him, how did you feel about his PED use at the time?

So, Levi doesn't want to be your friend, who cares?

[El Chaba]

The public owes him nothing either.



I can never understand these guys who all want to "give back" to the sport.

.

Usually when these guys want to "give back" to the sport, they have figured out a way to take something else from the same sport

[charliedid]

The public owes him nothing either.

He made his bed, now he gets to sleep with a hot wife and 22 varieties of animals.

I can never understand these guys who all want to "give back" to the sport.

How about giving back all the prize money and contracts to guys they cheated over the years who weren't doping? The stove pictured in his house probably cost more than the salary of a bottom rung domestic pro.

I'm cool with that, but what does his wife being "hot" have to do with anything?

[oldpotatoe]

The public owes him nothing either.

He made his bed, now he gets to sleep with a hot wife and 22 varieties of animals.

I can never understand these guys who all want to "give back" to the sport.

How about giving back all the prize money and contracts to guys they cheated over the years who weren't doping? The stove pictured in his house probably cost more than the salary of a bottom rung domestic pro.

Yep, I guess it makes them feel better about themselves when they partially bare their soul....and when they say some crap about 'giving back'.

He said it, he knew the rules and the consequences and cheated and lied anyway. And he is financially comfy because of his cheating. Give back your $ you got while cheating, go find a job in a grocery store.....like my thief of a biz partner who's wife knew he was a thief, his wife knew he was a cheat and liar, she is almost as culpable. She lives the good life with the little hairy backed gnome.

[Tony]

All right, time for a blond joke, the cheat and liars :)

There is a magic mirror in this bike shop. If you told a lie it would
suck you in.
One day a brunette walked into this bike shop. She walked up to the mirror and
said 'I think I'm the most beautiful woman in the world' and it sucked her
in.
The next day a redhead walked into this bike shop. She walked up to the mirror
and said 'I think I'm the most beautiful woman in the world' and it sucked
her in.
Then the next day a blond walked into this bike shop. She walked up to the
mirror and said 'I think...' and it sucked her in. : )

[BumbleBeeDave]

I belive the comment was rather tongue-in-cheek given the sentence and goes with the playful nature of this whole thread.

I was not at all intending this thread to be playful.

For some reason, I have far worse feelings about Lance, George, and Levi than other dopers who have come out. While I am far from warm and fuzzy about people like Van de Velde, it's just a tiny bit easier to understand domestiques who were told to do this or get thrown off the team.

Levi was one of the wannabee GC biggies who was no such person. Right now I am dead sure I will never have anything to do with any event in the future that has any connection to Lance, George, or Levi, and I can't understand anybody who would pay big money just to share the road with them.

BBD

[54ny77]

.....

[pdmtong]

Levi doesn't owe you anything.

If you were hoping for a one on one personal moment and didn't get it, so what? Standing around in a group of people in those situations is no way to judge a person.

When you DID support him, how did you feel about his PED use at the time?

So, Levi doesn't want to be your friend, who cares?

Sea otter sure - go ahead and blow off "fans". His choice.

At the second and fourth editions of a ride he named after himself I think that's a different story

It's too bad Levi didn't want to be my friend. :-(

[alessandro]

Levi is boring. Aside from being a liar, he doesn't have anything interesting to say, so why would anyone pay attention? I accompanied friends to The Levi Effect in 2012, and I still want my 90 minutes back. The man has all the personality of a glass of dishwater.

[spacemen3]

Levi is boring. Aside from being a liar, he doesn't have anything interesting to say, so why would anyone pay attention? I accompanied friends to The Levi Effect in 2012, and I still want my 90 minutes back. The man has all the personality of a glass of dishwater.
Absolutely. I remember some article where he was talking about how much energy was wasted over a race from shifting. Maybe if he shifted less he might have been able to actually attack in a big race instead of suck wheel. :)

[tiretrax]

Pobre cito! I nicknamed him Levi Leipwhiner many years ago.

[harlond]

How about giving back all the prize money and contracts to guys they cheated over the years who weren't doping?When people say stuff like this, I think of Diogenes and his lamp.

[CunegoFan]

For some reason, I have far worse feelings about Lance, George, and Levi than other dopers who have come out. While I am far from warm and fuzzy about people like Van de Velde, it's just a tiny bit easier to understand domestiques who were told to do this or get thrown off the team.


Good ol' Vande Velde, who went on to race for Liberty Seguros, a team with a much more extensive doping program than Postal, then for CSC, a team that outsourced its doping support to the same doctors used by Liberty Seguros. Let's also remember that after he claims he gave up doping out of the goodness of his heart, he managed to take fourth overall at the Tour, right between Dennis "Humanplasma" Menchov and Frank "Dr. Fuentes" Schleck. But he was "forced" into doping. Sounds legit.

Isn't it time to give up this good guys and bad guys view of doping and embrace the reality that since the early 90s the entire sport has been an exercise in blood vector doping and anyone who wanted to race Div 1/Pro Tour/World Tour needed to dope to achieve the level of performance needed to race at that level? No one had to force anyone to dope. Riders did it willingly because that was the only way to get to where they wanted to go.

Personally I never liked Leipheimer's racing style but this hand wringing over his doping is bogus. What would it have mattered if he had not doped? His place would have been taken by one of the thousands of others using EPO who were one or two heads down the totem pole.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

...

[CunegoFan]

I can never understand these guys who all want to "give back" to the sport.


Did you ever consider that most of these guys like cycling just like the member here do? Money for development teams is not exactly easy to find. If Hincapie or Danielson or Leipheimer want to help out then why should anyone turn away the dollars?

[e-RICHIE]

Did you ever consider that most of these guys like cycling just like the member here do? Money for development teams is not exactly easy to find. If Hincapie or Danielson or Leipheimer want to help out then why should anyone turn away the dollars?

Because they have ethical standards that trump dollars atmo.

I can't comment on what happens outside the lines, but as far as the inside
goes, I don't think these (any) cheaters should have a presence on any level.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool::):p
:p;):rolleyes:
:cool::cool::mad:

[BumbleBeeDave]

Isn't it time to give up this good guys and bad guys view of doping and embrace the reality that since the early 90s the entire sport has been an exercise in blood vector doping and anyone who wanted to race Div 1/Pro Tour/World Tour needed to dope to achieve the level of performance needed to race at that level? . . .

I said I have a TINY bit more sympathy for domestiques. Not saying ANY of these people get a free pass in my book.

BBD

[54ny77]

Agreed. An admitted doper and cheat like Levi, involved with youth cycling teams/leagues, is just so absurd on every level I dunno what to say.

Essentially the tag line is: "I enjoyed very meaningful success in professional bike racing, doped for a big chunk of it (which enabled the success), but now I'm here to be honest with you. Ignore my unwitting--but still very comfortable--retirement, and listen to me when I say just say no to doping."

It's about as ridiculous as hearing the same thing from Nancy Reagan.

Because they have ethical standards that trump dollars atmo.

I can't comment on what happens outside the lines, but as far as the inside
goes, I don't think these (any) cheaters should have a presence on any level.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool::):p
:p;):rolleyes:
:cool::cool::mad:

[e-RICHIE]

Agreed. An admitted doper and cheat like Levi, involved with youth cycling teams/leagues, is just so absurd on every level I dunno what to say.


I feel the same about all of them, even Vaughters atmo. Writing an op-ed piece in the NYT doesn't
change my point of view. You cheat. You get caught. You cheat and don't get caught, but later
admit to cheating. Any combination thereof. You're out of the game. Well, that's how I'd like it to be.

[goonster]

When people say stuff like this, I think of Diogenes and his lamp.

This. Well played.

[Nags&Ducs]

I'm cool with that, but what does his wife being "hot" have to do with anything?

Nothing. But she's hot. Or not. Personally, she's got nice big cans, but that's about it. Oh, but wait, what's that got to do with it? Nothing, once again. Just bs commentary.:beer:

[Mark McM]

Agreed. An admitted doper and cheat like Levi, involved with youth cycling teams/leagues, is just so absurd on every level I dunno what to say.

How you do feel about ex-convicts being involved with "scared straight" programs that try to keep kids out of becoming criminals?

You'd think that a reformed ex-doper would have a lot more street cred' regarding keeping young athletes away from PEDs.

[torquer]

The ex-cons usually don't have accessories like hot wives and Wolf ranges (priced more like Lightweight Obermayers, which, for all I know, is more than what low-level pros make in a year) as part of the presentation.

[54ny77]

As far as I'm aware, the ex-cons involved with scared straight programs don't have a comfy retirement having earned millions in their cycling career (yes, cycling, that fringe sport of riding a bicycle for a living), run charitable organizations and gran fondos, have a couple dozen varieties of rescue animals on their ranch in an affluent northern California suburb, etc.

If I was a parent with a kid in cycling, I'd want them to have guidance from someone who doesn't dope and has achieved success, however "success" is measured, and who points out that the lying, cheating cyclists like Levi, Armstrong, etc. are frauds.

And if I really wanted a "scared straight" cyclist to teach 'em a few life lessons, I'd hire Chad Gerlach.



How you do feel about ex-convicts being involved with "scared straight" programs that try to keep kids out of becoming criminals?

You'd think that a reformed ex-doper would have a lot more street cred' regarding keeping young athletes away from PEDs.

[e-RICHIE]

As far as I'm aware, the ex-cons involved with scared straight programs <cut>
That's right. And they're not ex-cons, they're cons. Or at least that the way it was when Scared Straight began at the state prison in Rahway. These were imprisoned men and women who were engaging youngsters, They weren't ex-cons, though some may have become ex-cons.
And if I really wanted a "scared straight" cyclist to teach 'em a few life lessons, I'd hire Chad Gerlach.Agreed. Levi is selling something. George is selling something. Vaughters runs a team. The others wrote books. Keep them out of the sport.

[earlfoss]

Frankly I'm amazed that Tom Danielson somehow still has a spot on Garmin. He was just as unrepentant as Levi though he did have the good sense to not race unsanctioned races while serving his suspension. Still I think had he been a couple years older when the ban happened he'd be retired today as well.

Stories of his personal life that have leaked out even as recent as a few months ago make him seem like a pretty huge tool.

I don't think Levi would make a great ambassador of cycling for younger people. He might be a nice guy but I think his time in cycling is over. To scare people straight I'd think that you'd have to show remorse for what you've done and seem sincere about it.

He can go be a nice guy in r/c car racing or hot air ballooning.

Maybe Odessa could start racing again and he could be her support crew.

[don compton]

Levi, IMHO, is NOT a decent dude. I have run into him 4x, twice after his namesake fondo ended and twice at sea otter. all four times, there was hardly anyone around, no where else to be, and he was so irritated to give me or my daughter the time of day for a picture, all this when he was at the peak of his popularity. Really, you can't spare 15 seconds? I get that folks in the spotlight get tired of that but given the circumstances, it wouldn't have been that hard to engage a fan let alone a kid.

Also, does the guy even bother to ride down the line of the folks supporting his Fondo before the start? Noooooooo...just stays up front with all the 5 hour finishers and you never see the guy.

And lastly, he eeks out a "confession" to the santa rosa press democrat once his hand is forced? like George, both made a ton of money and have comfy lives. but, like George, I was once a fan but now his poster is long gone off the wall.

as for the fondo, GREAT ride but I will NEVER ride it again. the ride no longer sells out in hours...probably more due to participant fatigue than levi apathy. I get he makes no money from it, but I'm done with my Levi support.
I had the unfortunate experience of meeting him at the Norcal bike shop in Santa Rosa. I was just in the shop looking at clothes with my wife and there he was. I said high to him and told him I had been following his accomplishments for years and wished him the best. No expression, no thanks, nothing. Kind of a DICK. After learning of the real reason of his success and my brief experience with him, I wouldn't give him the time of day.
Time to look at the new guys and their successes.

[FlashUNC]

A cheater feels he got cheated, my heart breaks.

And now has his name on an event that does nothing but burnish his reputation and keep him in the public limelight.

Sonoma is gorgeous and the causes the ride supports are noble ones, but I'll not be doing the ride as long as Levi's name is on the thing.

[pdmtong]

A cheater feels he got cheated, my heart breaks.

And now has his name on an event that does nothing but burnish his reputation and keep him in the public limelight.

Sonoma is gorgeous and the causes the ride supports are noble ones, but I'll not be doing the ride as long as Levi's name is on the thing.

Actually, I think you should do the ride as part of your move out here.
It is expensive. But you get road closures and a full lane to ride in, good food, and unreal vistas. it is not an easy ride since 70% of the climbing is between miles 30-65. I dont often pass folks up hill but on the levi ride I was reeling in folks left and right, only because this is how riding is in the bay area and if you are from the flats you will be punished. FWIW I rode it with a 34-26 low.

The view off king ridge down the coast was worth it alone.

Even though I live here, I am not one to drive up that day do the ride and drive home unless I had the motivation of an organized ride.

The only thing I did not like is finally getting through the start by 8:30am, enjoying my rest stops and finishing around 5:00 only to find most of the better food gone and the music packing up. ···? there were hundreds of folks BEHIND me so it's not like I am soooo slow to be the last person in. For $150 I want my beer and food a the finish.

So yea, I will talk out of both sides and say boo on Levi but yay on the ride itself...its the only century I have been on that I felt engaged the whole time and did not suffer from mile 80+ boredom...

[cfox]

A little turd like Levi absolutely did owe fans at least the time of day. There are countless athletes (appox. 1 quadrillion times more famous) who appreciate and treat fans well. He should be thankful anyone recognized him in the first place. Oh, and count me in the "met Levi...what a DICK club". He never accomplished nearly enough to cop any kind of attitude. I'm glad whatever it was he had is now over.

[earlfoss]

Yeah what Odessa looked like certainly is my lasting memory. Quite a looker at the time!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CunegoFan]

I wonder where you guys intend to find cycling's equivalent of virgin spinsters to run the sport.

[pbarry]

A little turd like Levi absolutely did owe fans at least the time of day. There are countless athletes (appox. 1 quadrillion times more famous) who appreciate and treat fans well. He should be thankful anyone recognized him in the first place. Oh, and count me in the "met Levi...what a DICK club". He never accomplished nearly enough to cop any kind of attitude. I'm glad whatever it was he had is now over.

Taking a p*ss at a trade show 20 years ago, EM appeared at the urinal next to me. Moving towards the sinks, I started a conversation about Ti frames, which he was interested in building. He could not have been more gracious or unflappable with my fandom or business idea.

Gave me his card, which will never be pried from my cold dead hands. :cool:

Only GL and Hampsten have that same kind of one-on-one form among the greats I've met.

[rwsaunders]

If he wanted to make amends and give something back, he'd start by removing his name from the Gran Fondo. I'm sure that it could survive without him.

[Elefantino]

Let's just say cycling took 1991-2007 off. 2008, 2009 and 2010 mostly off.

Since then it is as pure as the driven snow.

[cfox]

Taking a p*ss at a trade show 20 years ago, EM appeared at the urinal next to me. Moving towards the sinks, I started a conversation about Ti frames, which he was interested in building. He could not have been more gracious or unflappable with my fandom or business idea.

Gave me his card, which will never be pried from my cold dead hands. :cool:

Only GL and Hampsten have that same kind of one-on-one form among the greats I've met.

Cool story. Guys like EM, GL, and Andy have accomplished enough to cop an attitude, and yet they don't. It's always the C-list guys that have the insecure attitude crap.

[sitzmark]

Let's just say cycling took 1991-2007 off. 2008, 2009 and 2010 mostly off.

Since then it is as pure as the driven snow.

Before 1991 too. ;)

[oldpotatoe]

Did you ever consider that most of these guys like cycling just like the member here do? Money for development teams is not exactly easy to find. If Hincapie or Danielson or Leipheimer want to help out then why should anyone turn away the dollars?

Because they are scumbags..must have courage of your convictions.

[sitzmark]

Because they are scumbags..must have courage of your convictions.

As are an estimated 90% of riders during the day. Wasn't just the riders who were scumbags. UCI should have just shut down pro cycling for 20 years ... but they didn't ...

[oldpotatoe]

As are an estimated 90% of riders during the day. Wasn't just the riders who were scumbags. UCI should have just shut down pro cycling for 20 years ... but they didn't ...

UCI, like ohh so many pro sport governing bodies, will NOT call attention to things like doping..else it may kill their sport..FIFA comes to mind, those guys get tested?...or MLB, or NFL or NHL or NBA or..put alphabet governing body here.

[FlashUNC]

I'd rather the dopers send an apology to the Christophe Bassons' and Filippo Simeoni's of the world.

Somehow I think that's unlikely.

[oldpotatoe]

I'd rather the dopers send an apology to the Christophe Bassons' and Filippo Simeoni's of the world.

Somehow I think that's unlikely.

Right after LA went on Oprah, regardless of how you feel about that theater...Andy Hampsten came in the shop the next day and was a happy, happy guy...Greg was pretty happy too.

[sitzmark]

UCI, like ohh so many pro sport governing bodies, will NOT call attention to things like doping..else it may kill their sport..FIFA comes to mind, those guys get tested?...or MLB, or NFL or NHL or NBA or..put alphabet governing body here.

Nope, governing bodies have conflicting interests. We all know (or had/have a grounded suspicion) whats going on, but we still watch(ed). Pro sports is pro sports - "extra advantage" goes with the territory. Sometimes it's worse than others depending on technology and diligence of oversight.

As an athlete during the "bad times" you choose your course of action - pretend like nothing's going on and get spit out, conscientiously object and don't play, or play to win. Cheating in cycling has been a part of the sport for a VERY long time. (As in most pro sports where $$ are on the line and the cancer is progressively moving downstream into "amateur".) It was UCI's responsibility to police the playing field and they didn't ... or didn't do it very well. Trying to expunge history after the fact is laughable.

The sad part is that it starts early - kids learn what they have to do to make the college ranks and then the pros. Someone like Levi can at least tell them the truth about the lay of the land ... and the consequences. All decisions have consequences. Respect is worth more than wealth and by all measures he and the riders of the day don't garner much respect. Thus LL's realization that no one wants to hear what he has to say.

I don't condone the decisions they made, but I do understand the environment in which the riders worked - not unlike typical corporate business environments. For the most part, that's what pro sports is - corporate business. What appear to be easy decisions are often very complicated and bigger than any individual(s) involved. Unfortunate that human nature is what it is ...

Through charity rides, I've had the chance to talk/ride with LL (and Odessa), Hincapie, Horner, Danielson, King, Roche, Eisel, Zabriskie, and others involved before and during the shake out. All were always cordial. Didn't go down the path of autographs and high expectations - not my nature - so wasn't disappointed with the outcome of any interactions with them.

[torquer]

It is expensive...
For $150 I want my beer and food a the finish.
...its the only century I have been on that I felt engaged the whole time and did not suffer from mile 80+ boredom...
Expensive? Gran Fondo NY was $289!
(But I don't get the whole GF thing, anyway, especially on roads I can ride any day of the week for free.)

[BumbleBeeDave]

Expensive? Gran Fondo NY was $289!
(But I don't get the whole GF thing, anyway, especially on roads I can ride any day of the week for free.)

I consider the cause and the amenities I'm getting on the road for my money. D2R2 is under $100, has a great lunch stop and bash at the finish line, and the ride benefits a worthy local charity that's concerned with protecting exactly the country we're riding through.

GFNY, as far as I know, is for profit, and they'd have to do an AWFUL lot for me to make it worth $289. Yeeow.

BBD

[Mark McM]

Cool story. Guys like EM, GL, and Andy have accomplished enough to cop an attitude, and yet they don't. It's always the C-list guys that have the insecure attitude crap.

Just wondering ...

The forum has expressed their views that certain riders who weren't/aren't dopers and were/are gracious to cycling fans, and certain other riders who were/are dopers and were/are not gracious to cycling fans. Does the forum also have views about which riders were/are dopers but are otherwise nice people, or riders who never doped but behave like real jerks? Or is there no middle ground regarding riders personalities and doping?

[CunegoFan]

As are an estimated 90% of riders during the day. Wasn't just the riders who were scumbags. UCI should have just shut down pro cycling for 20 years ... but they didn't ...

It would have to have shut it down for a lot more than 20 years. Drugs have been an integral part of cycling from the very beginning, going back more than a hundred years. The anti-doping rules made by the UCI were never intended to be followed. There was a tacit understanding between all involved that those rules were window dressing for the rubes. That is why it is ridiculous to consider doping as cheating during that era.

With all the riders knowing what was up, the team staff knowing what was up, the race organizers knowing what was up, the national and international governing bodies knowing what was up, the cycling media knowing what was up, any fan with a brain knowing what was up, apparently the only people who were unaware were naive cyclotourists and the general public, which does not care about cycling let alone bike racing.

[cfox]

Just wondering ...

The forum has expressed their views that certain riders who weren't/aren't dopers and were/are gracious to cycling fans, and certain other riders who were/are dopers and were/are not gracious to cycling fans. Does the forum also have views about which riders were/are dopers but are otherwise nice people, or riders who never doped but behave like real jerks? Or is there no middle ground regarding riders personalities and doping?

You are quoting me, but I certainly can't speak for the forum. Me? I don't really care about the doping, and I think it's foolish to try to parse out the dopers and non-dopers. They all did/do it, some are cool guys, Levi is a confirmed douchebag. That is all I'm commenting on.

You do ask an interesting question, though. It certainly seems guys like Tyler were given a pass by a lot of folks because he's such a nice guy.

[BumbleBeeDave]

For me there's several factors in play. I'm far more likely to give a (semi-) free pass to somebody like Tyler who expresses convincing remorse AND has not profited immensely from his cheating.

The apology of someone who is still very well off as a result of their cheating begs the question of why they don't give up their ill-gotten gains if they are REALLY sorry.

Someone who is still rich from their cheating AND who offers a totally unconvincing apology (Lance) or tries to pretty obviously gloss it all over (George) gets short shrift from me.

Levi may not have profited immensely from his cheating, but this is not the first place I have heard repeated stories about his lack of character and/or people skills.

BBD

[tiretrax]

For me there's several factors in play. I'm far more likely to give a (semi-) free pass to somebody like Tyler who expresses convincing remorse AND has not profited immensely from his cheating.



The amount of $ shouldn't be a factor. Tyler Hamilton wanted to be in the cool bunch and get a white lunch bag. He continued to dope long after he left USPS, and he was caught repeatedly, forcing him to retire. Now that he can't race, he wants to come clean and to be viewed as a good guy. Seriously? And, don't get me started with Landis. I only hope he loses his lawsuit so he doesn't become enriched.

The only thing that separates LA is that he tried to destroy those who tried to shine a light on doping. Using Livestrong as a shield (I don't know why people are going after me when I've done so much for people with cancer) is reprehensible and also unforgivable.

[enr1co]

Preventing the cheaters from profiting is hard to control. What could be controlled is stripping the cheats names out of the record books and at least give their huge egos a kick in the teeth. Let themselves be the only ones worshiping their
meaningless trophies or framed jerseys.

Levi's Tour Suisse, TOC, etc. Same with Hincapie and other cheats. Makes me ill to see Hincapie acknowledged for longevity/most TdF finishes or "best US classics rider"- such BS.

[Black Dog]

The interesting foot note is that Tyler and Landis lost all their money and relationships over the doping. Guys like Lance, George, and Levi, got to keep most of both. The first two paid a price, albeit unwillingly. What is the lesson; fight the omertà and the sanctions and loose. Keep your mouth shut and win…some things never change.

[torquer]

A different way of looking at these two groups (in Black Dog's post), is that Tyler and Landis got caught, then denied and doubled down (collecting money from supporters and book buyers), and then lost whatever they they could have comfortably retired with. Maybe this was greed on their part, maybe simple delusion (once you get away with something for a while, why expect that you won't get away with it forever?)
Landis, with his whistleblower suit, ATMO, still hasn't smelled that batch of coffee.

George and the Garmin guys took their medicine (which you're welcome to judge as weak, but that's a separate debate) and retired or came back and kept their head down.

Levi seems to have joined LA somewhere in the middle, both admitting guilt while offering excuses, refusing to give up the limelight.

I respect some more than others, but in the end, its all just showbiz, and there are plenty of other choices at the multiplex.

[peanutgallery]

they'll all be broke (and single) in a few years

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000GKsVW4U_HVg/s/650/650/Levi-Leipheimer-Odessa-JTM-0646.jpg

Levi is outkicking his coverage, now that there's no more income and he's around all the time? The rest of the crew will go kinda the same way, karma

[brando]

The interesting foot note is that Tyler and Landis lost all their money and relationships over the doping. Guys like Lance, George, and Levi, got to keep most of both. The first two paid a price, albeit unwillingly. What is the lesson; fight the omertà and the sanctions and loose. Keep your mouth shut and win…some things never change.

Landis lost his career but he does have a 25% interest in Lance's money as a "whistleblower".

[CunegoFan]

Preventing the cheaters from profiting is hard to control. What could be controlled is stripping the cheats names out of the record books and at least give their huge egos a kick in the teeth. Let themselves be the only ones worshiping their
meaningless trophies or framed jerseys.


Good luck with that. Here is the resulting top ten for pretty much every significant race since EPO became endemic.

1. (blank)
2. (blank)
3. (blank)
4. (blank)
5. (blank)
6. (blank)
7. (blank)
8. (blank)
9. (blank)
10. (blank)

[rwsaunders]

The interesting foot note is that Tyler and Landis lost all their money and relationships over the doping. Guys like Lance, George, and Levi, got to keep most of both. The first two paid a price, albeit unwillingly. What is the lesson; fight the omertà and the sanctions and loose. Keep your mouth shut and win…some things never change.

That's because Hamilton and Landis chose to spend their money on legal fees to defend themselves against being called out on something that they eventually admitted to doing. That in itself was pretty damned stupid.

[Dead Man]

Everyone doped, most probably still do.

As to who is an asshole and who isn't.... why? What do they owe you? Do they owe you more consideration than anyone else owes you? Does getting paid money to race bikes require a person develop an open and outgoing personality, if that's not something that comes natural to him?

If you walked up to a stranger and wanted to chat him up and take your picture with him... does he owe you that? What if he wasn't super receptive to you? Would you be offended by that, and years later, tell people what an asshole that guy IS? What if he's just a generally socially inept introvert and doesn't deal with direct attention well? What if he gets moody when he has low blood sugar.... like.... you know..... when he's out riding? You can judge a guy's character in 1-2 minutes?

I can't. Some of you must be almost telepathically perceptive.

That's not as bad as the guys judging character by 15 second video clips "shared" on facebook... but it's getting into the neighborhood.

Someone mentioned hero worship. Yup... I don't get it. I have climber (rock/alpine/ice) friends who worship famous climbers and follow their lives and try to chat them up at American Alpine Club dinners. Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it doesn't.

Athletes, especially those in sports like bike racing and climbing - extremely elitist self-serving, ego-swelling sports attracting "A types" and defectively compulsive personalities - come from the middle class. They aren't raised from birth to be public speakers or good PR reps. They're just guys doing what they love, and one thing leads to another and suddenly they're famous. It doesn't change your social abilities, and it's ridiculous to think it should.

[Black Dog]

That's because Hamilton and Landis chose to spend their money on legal fees to defend themselves against being called out on something that they eventually admitted to doing. That in itself was pretty damned stupid.

That is what I said, they fought against the sections, lost money and much more. It was stupid in hindsight to fight the charges. But they must have thought that they could win or someone counselled them to do so against their better judgement. Those that just said only what they had to say and nothing more (things like we all stopped doping in 2006…that truck load of BS) walked away with most if not all their money. At the end of the day, Landis and Tyler paid a high price and I suspect that it changed them, in some ways, for the better. I would also suspect that they are sorry for all the collateral damage that they caused. The others who ultimately got away with it with almost zero real contrition are the same cheaters they have always have been.

Professional sports is a business, first and last. We are the consumers of their entertainment; real or fictional. It like many a business is about $$ first and ethics second. People lie, cheat, steal to serve their own ends, and sports are no exception. This is why we have laws, moral codes, etc…

I love watching races because of the landscape that they are played out across, and secondly the drama (physical and tactical) that unfolds in the heat of competition, doped or not. I do not concern myself if it is real or not, it is entertainment. When I want to see real sport played they way it should be played I watch my young kids play soccer and admire their smiles as they play, winning or loosing.

[crankles]

DO the Grasshoppers instead. Same roads, less people,. more fun, less expensive. Actually, I think you should do the ride as part of your move out here.
It is expensive. But you get road closures and a full lane to ride in, good food, and unreal vistas. it is not an easy ride since 70% of the climbing is between miles 30-65. I dont often pass folks up hill but on the levi ride I was reeling in folks left and right, only because this is how riding is in the bay area and if you are from the flats you will be punished. FWIW I rode it with a 34-26 low.

The view off king ridge down the coast was worth it alone.

Even though I live here, I am not one to drive up that day do the ride and drive home unless I had the motivation of an organized ride.

The only thing I did not like is finally getting through the start by 8:30am, enjoying my rest stops and finishing around 5:00 only to find most of the better food gone and the music packing up. ···? there were hundreds of folks BEHIND me so it's not like I am soooo slow to be the last person in. For $150 I want my beer and food a the finish.

So yea, I will talk out of both sides and say boo on Levi but yay on the ride itself...its the only century I have been on that I felt engaged the whole time and did not suffer from mile 80+ boredom...

[rwsaunders]

^ What I always thought that sucked as well was that Hamilton and Landis both reached out to the public to help finance their defense, basing their pleas for help on being unjustly accused. Does anybody remember the "Floyd Fairness Fund" or the "I Believe Tyler" campaign? Puke

[pbarry]

Good comparison.

Climbing today is about where pro cycling was in the late 80's/early 90's. A dozen superstars, everyone else making squat, and begging sponsors for gear.

I dated one of the free climbers from that era, and attended trade shows, speaking engagements, AAC events with her. Not once, did she fail to ask a fan what their name was, how long they'd been climbing, what their favorite routes were, etc. Even when someone would interrupt a dinner conversation, she was always gracious and took a few moments to engage them.

I get your point, but if you're going to be in the show, and pro sports are a SHOW, then I think there are a few basic civil things an athlete can do to engage the public that buys the gear they use, and the mags that shill the gear, and encourage a youngster or a newbie as others did for them before they had palmares. If you don't want to be in the show, then go to Yosemite, and solo the toughest routes and don't tell anyone about it.

Everyone doped, most probably still do.

As to who is an asshole and who isn't.... why? What do they owe you? Do they owe you more consideration than anyone else owes you? Does getting paid money to race bikes require a person develop an open and outgoing personality, if that's not something that comes natural to him?

If you walked up to a stranger and wanted to chat him up and take your picture with him... does he owe you that? What if he wasn't super receptive to you? Would you be offended by that, and years later, tell people what an asshole that guy IS? What if he's just a generally socially inept introvert and doesn't deal with direct attention well? What if he gets moody when he has low blood sugar.... like.... you know..... when he's out riding? You can judge a guy's character in 1-2 minutes?

I can't. Some of you must be almost telepathically perceptive.

That's not as bad as the guys judging character by 15 second video clips "shared" on facebook... but it's getting into the neighborhood.

Someone mentioned hero worship. Yup... I don't get it. I have climber (rock/alpine/ice) friends who worship famous climbers and follow their lives and try to chat them up at American Alpine Club dinners. Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it doesn't.

Athletes, especially those in sports like bike racing and climbing - extremely elitist self-serving, ego-swelling sports attracting "A types" and defectively compulsive personalities - come from the middle class. They aren't raised from birth to be public speakers or good PR reps. They're just guys doing what they love, and one thing leads to another and suddenly they're famous. It doesn't change your social abilities, and it's ridiculous to think it should.

[rab]

Setting higher expectations for pro athletes is ultimately unrealistic.
Just like anything else, you get a broad cross section of personalities, the common denominator is they are gifted at their professional discipline.
After that, they are going to be as diverse as most other random samples from society, for good and bad.
Some are quite intelligent, get along well with others, face up great etc.
Some are flat out stupid, have no social skills or understanding of general expectations of social situations, and come across essentially like assholes. And everything in between.
Really wouldn't be much different than hero worshipping the CEO of a big company in my mind. The classic "they all put their pants on one leg at a time" mindset.

I have a few friends who have had multiple encounters with Levi, all said he came across quite nice, little shy maybe, but nobody had a single negative, and a couple of these guys are pretty no BS, would be looking for a reason to dislike if anything. They all think he is a dick for doping and his admission.

Free market. don't like the product/company, don't buy the product.