the hour record

[Climb01742]

i watched "the impossible hour" and "la course en tete" over the weekend. it got me thinking. why didn't lance ever attempt the hour? looking back at the history of the hour, it's like a rollcall of cycling's giants, especially post WWII. there is something mythic and timeless about the hour...it's almost like it is a duty, a tribute of respect to the sport and its history to attempt the hour. in our era, big mig did it. tony rominger did it. but today the hour seems like a sideshow. imagine if one august, after the tour, both jan and lance had taken a month to train. i'm a lance fan but i gotta fault him for not attempting the hour. seems selfish to not at least try it once. to attempt the hour is, i think, a tribute to the sport, an act of historic honoring of the sport. what happened to the hour?

here's a neat site:

http://www.bikecult.com/bikecultbook/sports_recordsHour.html

[zeroking17]

... to attempt the hour is, i think, a tribute to the sport, an act of historic honoring of the sport. what happened to the hour?



I believe that your question already includes the seeds of an answer. I've never felt that Armstrong genuinely desired to honor the sport that brought him fame and fortune.

[bironi]

Graeme Obree's book, Flying Scotsman. Not only was he a young amateur, but he trained by listening to his body more than pure data.

Byron

[loctite]

I believe that your question already includes the seeds of an answer. I've never felt that Armstrong genuinely desired to honor the sport that brought him fame and fortune.


POST OF THE DAY

[Fixed]

bro how much money would it bring him? cheers :beer:

[zeroking17]

bro how much money would it bring him? cheers :beer:


Fixed, you took the words right out of his mouth.

[1centaur]

"I've never felt that Armstrong genuinely desired to honor the sport that brought him fame and fortune."

Nor, by implication, has Ulrich, nor Lemond, nor many others. I do not think it's valid to say lack of an hour record attempt by a top time trialist implies a lack of desire to honor the sport. I bet if one looked at the motivations of those who have attempted the hour record, the primary rationale was ego and/or fame, plus possibly money (for someone) - they thought they could do it and wanted deeply to be viewed as the best. Not one of those people has achieved Armstrong's fame, fortune and accolades (reflecting the increase in pay as well as Lance's 7-Tour record). Yet every one of those riders suffered very deeply in making his attempt - would even one of them say his primary motivation was to honor the sport? Armstrong has less reason to attempt the record than they did, though I thought his ego and competitive nature might win the argument.

During his competitive years, given his training regimen, he would not have peaked for an hour record quickly after the Tour. While others have been able to fit the attempt in their schedules, that's not the way hyper-methodical Armstrong worked. He would have had to do it this year or, as teased in 2005, in an off year from his last Disco obligation Tour. I suspect he felt a little old at the end of the 2005 version (and showed his consistent tendency to fade towards the end of TTs), so I would not be surprised if he thought that going all out for a 2006 hour record might result in failure. Would failure in the attempt do more for cancer research than riding the 7-Tour wave? No (the work on the attempt last year probably told him what the economics would be). Would it make cycling more popular or better regarded? No. Bottom line - he'll do it if he thinks he will succeed, but he does not need to do it and frankly I would see it as a sign of weakness rather than character if he chose to do it now. As for honoring the sport, he's done a lot for cycling and claims to love the sport, the equipment, the people, and the activity. What more he will do remains to be seen, but to my eye he has done plenty already.

[Sandy]

I don't see why Lance Armstrong has any obligation of any kind to attempt to better the hour record. How many cyclists even attempt to better the record? Not many, I would think.

It is his choice to enter whatever he wants. We can't and really shouldn't place our values on him. He has his own perspective and his own value system.

I think that we are often much too critical of athletes who have made remarkable performance accomplishments. It as if no matter how well they have performed, it is not enough. This being said by those of us whose accomplishments are almost meaningless compared to the elite athletes.


Getting ready to attempt to better the hour record,

Supersonic Speedster Simpleton Serotta Sandy

[jerk]

testing conducted by armstrong and his people and sponsors determined that he would not in all likelyhood be able to break the hour record. so after alot of money spent, they abandoned the program.

jerk

[Sandy]

testing conducted by armstrong and his people and sponsors determined that he would not in all likelyhood be able to break the hour record. so after alot of money spent, they abandoned the program.

jerk

Do you think that it would be wise for me to spend zillions of dollars to determine if I would be able to break the hour record?? :)


Supersonic Speedster Serotta Sandy

[93legendti]

"I've never felt that Armstrong genuinely desired to honor the sport that brought him fame and fortune."

Nor, by implication, has Ulrich, nor Lemond, nor many others...

Great posts! Nor did Hinault, Kelly, Riis, JaJa, Olano, Gontchar (Hontchar) or other stars. Those that like to rip Lance may not understand he was paid by his sponsors to win certain races, to wit, the TdF. He fulfilled his contract. If he hadn't, you can bet one of the gossip mongerers would have informed us how Lance had screwed his team.

I am sure if he attempted the Hour and succeeded he would have been ripped here (by some) as greedy, anti-social, not nice, a bad driver, only caring about winning, blah, blah, blah. You can also bet if he did attempt the Hour and failed he would have been ripped here. Geez, the guy is retired and people still like to rip him. I wonder if he was still racing and was in the TdC would the races still be shown on ESPN at 1 and 2 a.m.? I think not.

[Sandy]

Well said. It is easy to criticize. Much harder to perform.



Sandy

[jerk]

Do you think that it would be wise for me to spend zillions of dollars to determine if I would be able to break the hour record?? :)


Supersonic Speedster Serotta Sandy

yes sandy,

send the jerk a check and we'll get the wind tunnel booked, the ada wheels on order and the walser frame prepped. the jerk'll take care of tracking down some east german doctors too.

jerk

[93legendti]

yes sandy,

send the jerk a check and we'll get the wind tunnel booked, the ada wheels on order and the walser frame prepped. the jerk'll take care of tracking down some east german doctors too.

jerk

Sandy might like some of those female East German swimmers that were kicked out of the last Olympics!

[SPOKE]

in his final effort to set another record the UCI would coume up with a way to find fault. the only way for Lance to prove he didn't dope, no matter if he should set the record or not, would be to donate his body to the UCI for about 6 weeks so they can test for everything.
why would anyone subject themselves to this mess. especially when he was already the most tested athlete on the planet.

[Sandy]

Sandy might like some of those female East German swimmers that were kicked out of the last Olympics!

I think that Kevan was one of those swimmers. :rolleyes: :)


Swimming Submerging Snorkeling Sinking Sandy

[93legendti]

I think that Kevan was one of those swimmers. :rolleyes: :)


Swimming Submerging Snorkeling Sinking Sandy

Just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water...

[BBB]

Geez, the guy is retired and people still like to rip him. I wonder if he was still racing and was in the TdC would the races still be shown on ESPN at 1 and 2 a.m.? I think not.

Perhaps you should ask why this is?

Move to Australia and you will find the TdF being shown live on free to air TV every single night in July. An Australian cyclist hasn't won the TdF once, much less seven times and yet the TdF is shown live because there is genuine interest in the race rather than it being a vehicle that some smarty pants thought would make a few quick bucks.

[93legendti]

Perhaps you should ask why this is?

Move to Australia and you will find the TdF being shown live on free to air TV every single night in July. An Australian cyclist hasn't won the TdF once, much less seven times and yet the TdF is shown live because there is genuine interest in the race rather than it being a vehicle that some smarty pants thought would make a few quick bucks.

Is that a rhetorical question?

In your last post about Australia you didn't make your country sound that inviting, so I think I will pass. :)

[BBB]

The clever ruse worked then!! :)

[keno]

Late this past summer I had the chance to chat with one of the top coaches in Carmichael's group while at TTown and I asked him what ever happened to Lance's hour record attempt. He told me that the tests indicated that Lance would break the record but not "smash" (the word used) it. I guess smash is where the man was at.

keno

[Climb01742]

my aim in posting wasn't to "slam" lance. i'm a fan. but maybe i see the hour record differently than most. eras in cycling change so much, but the hour is one challenge that endures and links eras (especially now that the "athlete's" record has been instituted). like the non-metric mile in track. there's no reason to run the mile anymore, yet if a high school runner does and gets close to 4 minutes, it places them in historic perspective. its a connection to roger bannister and jim ryan. the hour is like that, i think. no one is obligated, of course. and my point is not to turn this into a pro- or anti-lance thread. the hour is a cool, historic touchstone, i think.

[William]

It's not "the ***** that kills" to him.



Have fun and go fishing Lance. :beer:


William

[Andreu]

...a spectator sport the hour is not going to get bums on seats in the markets that matter i.e. USA. I have seen a couple of hour attempts and unless you are linked personally to the person who is riding then it lacks a certain je ne sais quoi (French for: I know not what).
People would not want to watch anyone ride the hour if they are accustomed to watching spectator sports like basketball where there is an ad break every 10 minutes and baskets scored every 1 minute.

It makes sense (to me anyway) that the specialists of today like Lance do not want to do it from a marketing point of view and also from a sport (probably sport psychology) point of view with everything hinging on that one attempt when temperature, air pressure and lots of other factors can easily derail an attempt.
A

[keno]

take a look at http://www.cyclingmasters.com/results/records.html. In particular, take a look at what the women and old guys have done for a bit of perspective.

keno

[Ken Lehner]

i watched "the impossible hour" and "la course en tete" over the weekend. it got me thinking. why didn't lance ever attempt the hour? looking back at the history of the hour, it's like a rollcall of cycling's giants, especially post WWII. there is something mythic and timeless about the hour...it's almost like it is a duty, a tribute of respect to the sport and its history to attempt the hour. in our era, big mig did it. tony rominger did it. but today the hour seems like a sideshow. imagine if one august, after the tour, both jan and lance had taken a month to train. i'm a lance fan but i gotta fault him for not attempting the hour. seems selfish to not at least try it once. to attempt the hour is, i think, a tribute to the sport, an act of historic honoring of the sport. what happened to the hour?

here's a neat site:

http://www.bikecult.com/bikecultbook/sports_recordsHour.html

One simple answer: Armstrong knew from testing that he couldn't do it. He knew exactly what kind of power he could generate in the non-aero position, exactly what his drag numbers were, and they didn't measure up to the performance in the hour record that he would have wanted. There was no reason to try when he knew he would fail.

[Sandy]

take a look at http://www.cyclingmasters.com/results/records.html. In particular, take a look at what the women and old guys have done for a bit of perspective.

keno

So keno, for the 135 + years group in the team sprint, was the 135 + for the entire team or for each member in the team?? :rolleyes:


Simple Sandy

[Climb01742]

...a spectator sport the hour is not going to get bums on seats in the markets that matter i.e. USA. I have seen a couple of hour attempts and unless you are linked personally to the person who is riding then it lacks a certain je ne sais quoi (French for: I know not what).
People would not want to watch anyone ride the hour if they are accustomed to watching spectator sports like basketball where there is an ad break every 10 minutes and baskets scored every 1 minute.

It makes sense (to me anyway) that the specialists of today like Lance do not want to do it from a marketing point of view and also from a sport (probably sport psychology) point of view with everything hinging on that one attempt when temperature, air pressure and lots of other factors can easily derail an attempt.
A

are spectators necessary for an athletic achievement? is a marketing opportunity necessary too? playing devil's advocate here. there are many reasons why an hour attempt doesn't make "sense"...but is that "sense" leading us in a direction that's good or bad?

[e-RICHIE]

all the guys that attempted the hour record were either complete
road cyclists or professional time trialists (boardman, obree).
the hour record once was a baseline standard by which riders
of different generations could be measured. that is no longer
the case. just as racing the 6 day circuit in the winter once was,
the hour record is no longer relevant in today's cycle sport world.

"the universe is expanding."
alvy singer

[Climb01742]

all the guys that attempted the hour record were either complete
road cyclists or professional time trialists (boardman, obree).
the hour record once was a baseline standard by which riders
of different generations could be measured. that is no longer
the case. just as racing the 6 day circuit in the winter once was,
the hour record is no longer relevant in today's cycle sport world.

"the universe is expanding."
alvy singer

true. i'm in the minority here but i find this truth saddening. cycling without the hour record is like, well, cycling without steel frames. :rolleyes:

[ada@prorider.or]

well i think there is a simple reason
these days pro cyclsit only ride for the money
this means if there where a huge amount of money they could earn let say a million they would do it
even if they beat it for 1 second

i think thats the only reason
these days they do not cycle anymore for the fun of it
there to much other things involved

[e-RICHIE]

true. i'm in the minority here but i find this truth saddening. cycling without the hour record is like, well, cycling without steel frames. :rolleyes:

i set the hour record on my steel frame;
it took 57 minutes.

[zeroking17]

i set the hour record on my steel frame;
it took 57 minutes.


Metric or imperial?

[Climb01742]

a lot of the hour records were set on steel!

[93legendti]

are spectators necessary for an athletic achievement? is a marketing opportunity necessary too? playing devil's advocate here. there are many reasons why an hour attempt doesn't make "sense"...but is that "sense" leading us in a direction that's good or bad?

No spectators aren't necessary. But some one needs to foot the bill for the costs. Right? So if no one watches, whose going to pay?

[93legendti]

well i think there is a simple reason
these days pro cyclsit only ride for the money
this means if there where a huge amount of money they could earn let say a million they would do it
even if they beat it for 1 second

i think thats the only reason
these days they do not cycle anymore for the fun of it
there to much other things involved

You mean, pro cyclists used to ride without "money"??! Isn't the definition of "pro" someone who gets paid to do something? :confused:

[Climb01742]

No spectators aren't necessary. But some one needs to foot the bill for the costs. Right? So if no one watches, whose going to pay?

in the past, i'd guess the sponsors paid. bet trek would have footed the bill for lance, or giant for jan. i can't argue that a record attempt makes any economic sense; it doesn't. but does everything have to make economic sense? seems to make historic sense. i'd go back to my mile analogy. why run the mile vs 1500 meters? history is the only reason, and a good one, i think.

[e-RICHIE]

a lot of the hour records were set on steel!

i don't think more than 2 weren't.

[Andreu]

are spectators necessary for an athletic achievement? No
is a marketing opportunity necessary too? No

But unfortunately the world doesn't work like that anymore or at least the world that we see through television and the media in general. There are many reasons for this but a significant factor is "big corporate money" and if it is not there then why would Lance get involved? There is too much to risk for too little benefit.

Is that "sense" leading us in a direction that's good or bad? Its leading us generally in a bad direction. We will continue to be fed more races that appear the same since everybody will work out what they have to do to race them (i.e. no cyclocross in the winter, no track racing etc. etc.)

Grumpily,
A

[93legendti]

in the past, i'd guess the sponsors paid. bet trek would have footed the bill for lance, or giant for jan. i can't argue that a record attempt makes any economic sense; it doesn't. but does everything have to make economic sense? seems to make historic sense. i'd go back to my mile analogy. why run the mile vs 1500 meters? history is the only reason, and a good one, i think.

"but does everything have to make economic sense? "

No, but Pro Cycling is a business, right? Does your business make economic sense? I hope so. I find it interesting that people are so free with other people's money.

"seems to make historic sense." To you--maybe you should pay? :)

[ada@prorider.or]

You mean, pro cyclists used to ride without "money"??! Isn't the definition of "pro" someone who gets paid to do something? :confused:

well i you get paid 10 million a year
and the less in the team earn 100.000 a year a free travel around the world
its not too bad

[93legendti]

well i you get paid 10 million a year
and the less in the team earn 100.000 a year a free travel around the world
its not too bad

Now, I am really confused. You are going to pay me 10 million a year?!

[gone]

but does everything have to make economic sense?
Sadly, in this day and age, I believe the answer is "yes"

[ada@prorider.or]

Now, I am really confused. You are going to pay me 10 million a year?!

no lance did and jan and i know few others

[93legendti]

no lance did and jan and i know few others
They paid me?

[keno]

are coming to mind.

keno

[Andreu]

first?
imho

[93legendti]

I want my $200.

[Climb01742]

"but does everything have to make economic sense? "

No, but Pro Cycling is a business, right? Does your business make economic sense? I hope so. I find it interesting that people are so free with other people's money.

"seems to make historic sense." To you--maybe you should pay? :)

93legend, most of the decisions we make for our business do make economic sense. but a number of them don't, happily. did giving all our folks bikes for christmas make economic sense? you see, i'll spend my money for something i believe in. even if -- or particularly if -- it doesn't make economic sense, but human sense. so i'm walking my talk. luckily, we can afford it. don't you think lance or jan, or their respective bike sponsors, could afford an hour attempt?

[72gmc]

don't you think lance or jan, or their respective bike sponsors, could afford an hour attempt?

Climb, I'm beginning to think you and I are of similar sensibilities (whether that is a good thing or not is for you to decide).

I like the idea of the hour attempt, and I also like the recently abandoned long standalone time trial a la GP Eddy Merckx. Lance did win that with Eki. I still think a 'patron' with a sense of history would have kept trying at L-B-L, and given Paris-Roubaix a serious attempt...

[Andreu]

they can afford it (although you'd be surprised how much it costs to put the hour record show on). But long term what is the payback?....and if they fail they lose a lot of face.
I just think that the payback for them does not warrant all the effort that they have to put in to achieve a result which is not 100% guaranteed - especially if you can not put out the necessary wattage for the time (as was implied in an earlier post). I just don't think riding the track for the top guys is part of their calendar anymore it neither fits in from a financial point nor fits in from a sport/prestige aspect. There is a small % of guys who ride the track and the road but they have less to lose and would never be high on final GC in a gran tour. Someone like Bradley Wiggins might go for it as he is a bit of a TT/track specialist - but do you know who he is?
A

[Climb01742]

andreu, i do know who brad wiggins is. i'm not strenuously arguing against your point, because it is a logical, rational one. so let me argue for the irrational: should we only attempt things we're certain to achieve? part of succeeding is risking failure. when someone sets out to climb everest -- a real climber not the social adventurers who pay to be escorted up -- are they assured success? are they assured good weather? and what's the payback? again, your points are valid and very sound. mine are romantic and unsound. but isn't sport so glorious partly because it is romantic, unsound and risky?

[93legendti]

93legend, most of the decisions we make for our business do make economic sense. but a number of them don't, happily. did giving all our folks bikes for christmas make economic sense? you see, i'll spend my money for something i believe in. even if -- or particularly if -- it doesn't make economic sense, but human sense. so i'm walking my talk. luckily, we can afford it. don't you think lance or jan, or their respective bike sponsors, could afford an hour attempt?

Do you have shareholders and/or a board of directors to answer to? I am not trying to argue with you and I have no idea how big your company is, but when you are dealing with sponsorship of a bicycle racing team, the shareholders and/or board of directors can be a little funny when it comes to what they perceive is a trivial matter, like the Hour. On the other hand, remember what happened to Mercury when they did not get in the TdF?
Non-cycling Americans finally "get" the Tour. Do you think non-cycling Americans will "get" the Hour?

Then there is the whole issue of when the Hour attempt should be done--early season, mid-season, late season? What race(s) would be sacrificed to make the attempt? Eddy said the hour was one of the hardest events he had ever done. Surely such an effort (and the preparation for it) would cut into other races/recovery. Now, if the UCI were to make it an annual "race" as part of the World Championships, with a nice bonus for anyone who broke the Hour record---now you are onto something!

[Climb01742]

Do you have shareholders and/or a board of directors to answer to? I am not trying to argue with you and I have no idea how big your company is, but when you are dealing with sponsorship of a bicycle racing team, the shareholders and/or board of directors can be a little funny when it comes to what they perceive is a trivial matter, like the Hour. On the other hand, remember what happened to Mercury when they did not get in the TdF?
Non-cycling Americans finally "get" the Tour. Do you think non-cycling Americans will "get" the Hour?

Then there is the whole issue of when the Hour attempt should be done--early season, mid-season, late season? What race(s) would be sacrificed to make the attempt? Eddy said the hour was one of the hardest events he had ever done. Surely such an effort (and the preparation for it) would cut into other races/recovery. Now, if the UCI were to make it an annual "race" as part of the World Championships, with a nice bonus for anyone who broke the Hour record---now you are onto something!

93, your points are logical and well-reasoned too. i can't argue that you're wrong. i guess what i'm arguing for is an alternative set of criteria, a different yardstick. and no, we don't have shareholders, we're small and private, and always will be private. it's easier to have an alternative, or broader, set of values as a private company. public companies are, i think, handcuffed by wall street...golden handcuffs but handcuffs nevertheless.

[andy mac]

i'm with you climb. for love not money to quote your company...


i read a great quote a few years back. i think it was from the coach of the australian rugby team.


"to win without risk is victory without glory"



seems like lance was in a hurry to retire at the end. pity.

[Andreu]

Climb0, I am with you all the way. I have a very quixotic idea (dating from circa 1569) about what cycling is about. I guess I am in a pragmatic mood today.
I think the only people who dream of such things like riding cyclo cross in the winter, racing the gran tours, doing the hour record, Paris-Roubaix and then popping back home for the local club 10 mile time trial, are largely in the amateur ranks and frequent internet fora/forums.
Interesting point about risking failure. I too am a Lance Armstrong fan but maybe one of his weaknesses, and Ulrich's too, is their ability to risk failure in other races like the hour record. They lead very controlled lives and they are very succesful at what they do but I think you summed it up best with the word "glorious". I would hardly call any of Ulrichs or Armstrongs successes "glorious" (apart from Armstrong's fight against cancer which was nothing short of a miracle). Eugène Christophe coming 7th in the 1913 Tour de France now that was glorious.
A

[Climb01742]

risking failure is what puts eddy in his own league, i think. eddy competed in everything, whether he was healthy or not, or at the top of his game or not. to watch him ride is to watch desire and competitive fire personified. he wasn't elegant or graceful on a bike, but he was glorious, i think.

[Andreu]

risking failure is what puts eddy in his own league, i think. eddy competed in everything, whether he was healthy or not, or at the top of his game or not. to watch him ride is to watch desire and competitive fire personified. he wasn't elegant or graceful on a bike, but he was glorious, i think.
Agreed

[MartyE]

For my .02 Lance didn't disrespect cycling history/tradition but an hour
attempt (failed or not) would have been a big nod towards it.
It also may have done much to secure Lance's legacy in cycling
(not that he needs it to have a legacy), and quite possibly softened
the negative feelings towards him.
Given the specialization we see in most sport (cycling notwithstanding)
I doubt that we will ever see another cannibal, let alone a sweep
of the 3 grand tours by one rider.

As a matter of speculation, given Lance's known technoweenie
tendencies which catagorywould he have made the attempt in? Tradtional steel frame or open catagory (CF, Aero bars etc.)?

marty

[Lost Weekend]

I think Lance has done all he needs to do for cycling- plus the dude is probably worn out tired, what with 7 in a row and all the women problems.
His efforts are better served in the fight against cancer- benifits all of humanity much more then a 1 hour bike ride.

[jerk]

cycling teams are not run like the businesses on the scale of what 93legendti presents; despite all the sponsorship and all the money, the final choice of lance armstrong's racing program rested with lance armstrong. his only guarantee to the corporate sponsor was one more tour de france. he could have raced against roy munson and no one else at wells ave for third place if he wanted.

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

...he could have raced against roy munson and no one else at wells ave for third place if he wanted.

jerk

i've pondered this and, ya' know what?
the math just doesn't add up atmo.

[jerk]

i've pondered this and, ya' know what?
the math just doesn't add up atmo.


use that binary conversion program imho bro.

you'll figure it out yo.

[manet]

did eddy use all the science of the day to test his
ability to break the record?

[e-RICHIE]

did eddy use all the science of the day to test his
ability to break the record?


no -
stephen hawkings was still in a stroller.

[jerk]

no -
stephen hawkings was still in a stroller.

really? the jerk thought he became paralyzed later.

[fiamme red]

did eddy use all the science of the day to test his
ability to break the record?Is that a rhetorical question?

[manet]

no -
stephen hawkings was still in a stroller.

... hitchcock snickers

[Climb01742]

I think Lance has done all he needs to do for cycling- plus the dude is probably worn out tired, what with 7 in a row and all the women problems.
His efforts are better served in the fight against cancer- benifits all of humanity much more then a 1 hour bike ride.

my thoughts on the hour aren't directed specifically at lance. jan hasn't tried one either. not since boardman has a "big" (or semi-big) name rider tried, i believe. in my original post, the question of what happened to the hour was directed at bike racing in general today. from eddy's day to chris boardman's day, cycling seemed to have a place for the hour. no longer. my criticism isn't specifically of lance -- once again, i'm a big lance fan. it just seems that by losing a place for the hour, cycling is a bit poorer.

as an aside, lance's greatest gift is inspiration, i think. wouldn't attempting to ride faster than anyone ever has for an hour be inspiring? even more so if it was the athlete's record...just man, bike and a track? ultimately, the hour is meaningless, which is what gives it it's meaning, if you see what i, er, mean. ;)

[William]

no -
stephen hawkings was still in a stroller.

http://growabrain.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/hawking.jpg

YO BRO! Don't be dissing on my bro Steve. :no: He's a brilliant man who's contributed much to science and our understanding of the universe.....besides, he'd dust any and all of you in an hour attempt....relatively speaking of course. :butt:


William

[e-RICHIE]

wasn't dissin' - just sayin'.
he is science.

[William]

wasn't dissin' - just sayin'.
he is science.

Bonus pack 'O Twizzlers! ;)



William