Race Bike Rationale

[Chris]

This is not about one material vs the other, well not in the traditional sense of what makes the best bike. Instead I'm interested in thoughts about racing these carbon bikes that are expensive relative to many of their counterparts and the competitive advantage that makes them worth the extra cost. Full disclosure, I race a Speedvagen so I'm a bit of a hypocrite in the cost argument here.

I bring this up because I was talking to my buddy who owns a shop that sells Specialized and he sponsors a local team. Over the last two weekends, four different riders have crashed their high-end specialized frames and broken them. Each rider now has to replace that frame in order to continue to be able to race. These frames are $3000 plus. When you compare the S-Works aluminum at ~$2000 or the Allez aluminum at less than $1000, is there a performance difference that exceeds the durability issue. Sure the cost differential is the first thing that catches your eye, but to me, the cost coupled with the relative fragility of the high end carbon compared to an aluminum frame (my buddy stacked it hard on Saturday on his CAAD 10 and raced on Sunday) doesn't seem like a great deal for a racer.

[oldpotatoe]

This is not about one material vs the other, well not in the traditional sense of what makes the best bike. Instead I'm interested in thoughts about racing these carbon bikes that are expensive relative to many of their counterparts and the competitive advantage that makes them worth the extra cost. Full disclosure, I race a Speedvagen so I'm a bit of a hypocrite in the cost argument here.

I bring this up because I was talking to my buddy who owns a shop that sells Specialized and he sponsors a local team. Over the last two weekends, four different riders have crashed their high-end specialized frames and broken them. Each rider now has to replace that frame in order to continue to be able to race. These frames are $3000 plus. When you compare the S-Works aluminum at ~$2000 or the Allez aluminum at less than $1000, is there a performance difference that exceeds the durability issue. Sure the cost differential is the first thing that catches your eye, but to me, the cost coupled with the relative fragility of the high end carbon compared to an aluminum frame (my buddy stacked it hard on Saturday on his CAAD 10 and raced on Sunday) doesn't seem like a great deal for a racer.

Those crashes that killed the carbon frames could have killed a steel or aluminum frame also.

Difference is the $ involved and the ability to (perhaps) fix the metal bikes.

For typical US racing, 3 or 4 corner, industrial park crits, I'd get something cheap..like a Gunnar roadie with Veloce stuff and go crash and smash away..or any of a number of le$$ expensive aluminum frames and do the same.

The metal bike won't mean you won't win that day or any day.

Fit(bike fit)
Fitness
Fat(lack thereof on the rider)
Finesse

makes for successful riding and racing.

Lots of ego involved sometimes.

[e-RICHIE]

...sells Specialized and he sponsors a local team. Over the last two weekends, four different riders have crashed their high-end specialized frames and broken them. Each rider now has to replace that frame in order to continue to be able to race. These frames are $3000 plus...

Is the price, for a sponsored rider, really $3000 for a frame atmo?

ps

arrange disorder

;);):p
;);):p
:cool::cool::)

[shovelhd]

I race a mid level carbon frame that costs $1649.00 MSRP. I got it through a crash replacement program for half that. Most major manufacturers have a similar deal. Anyone paying MSRP for a crash replacement frame isn't asking the right questions.

The guys who are really taking the risks are the guys on Waterfords, Gaulzettis, etc. Custom frames with long lead times. My race bike is a tool. If I break it I replace it, and I can afford to replace it.

[oldpotatoe]

i race a mid level carbon frame that costs $1649.00 msrp. I got it through a crash replacement program for half that. Most major manufacturers have a similar deal. Anyone paying msrp for a crash replacement frame isn't asking the right questions.

The guys who are really taking the risks are the guys on waterfords, gaulzettis, etc. Custom frames with long lead times. my race bike is a tool. If i break it i replace it, and i can afford to replace it.

hear hear!!!

[shovelhd]

Carbon can be relatively easy and inexpensive to repair. My teammate snapped his Orbea top tube at the head tube. Calfee fixed it for $400. Rides like new.

[shovelhd]

hear hear!!!

I was talking about my bike, not me.

[oldpotatoe]

I was talking about my bike, not me.

Tools not trophies!!

[Chris]

Is the price, for a sponsored rider, really $3000 for a frame atmo?

ps

arrange disorder

;);):p
;);):p
:cool::cool::)

I'm sure those guys get a break. I'm talking about just in the grand scheme of things. The local cat five racer who isn't sponsored and those guys seem to be the ones riding the nicest bikes, that just seems like a lot to me to worry about going through corner with 20 guys.

[AngryScientist]

the way i look at it is that, if you're not a sponsored racer, you need to have a back-up bike ready to go. crash the main rig, race the back-up. as long as the racer rides a fairly common sized bike, you can get used frames cheap on ebay all day long, buy, swap components and you're back in business.

it's all about fitness and ability. if i've trained correctly for any event and my bike snaps in half the day before the event, i'll do just as well with just about any other bike that fits under me.

[e-RICHIE]

I'm sure those guys get a break. I'm talking about just in the grand scheme of things. The local cat five racer who isn't sponsored and those guys seem to be the ones riding the nicest bikes, that just seems like a lot to me to worry about going through corner with 20 guys.

In my experience it's never been any different than now, except
maybe the price of things. But the ratio seems the same atmo.

[ShaneAtSilca]

I know several guys who have a "crit bike" for that reason.
If you're not in industry or sponsored to the point that you can shrug off the cost of replacing your nicest (see: Most Expensive) frame, putting it at risk in a cat 3-4-5 crit is a high potential cost, low potential benefit proposition.

[Lewis Moon]

I race a mid level carbon frame that costs $1649.00 MSRP. I got it through a crash replacement program for half that. Most major manufacturers have a similar deal. Anyone paying MSRP for a crash replacement frame isn't asking the right questions.

The guys who are really taking the risks are the guys on Waterfords, Gaulzettis, etc. Custom frames with long lead times. My race bike is a tool. If I break it I replace it, and I can afford to replace it.

Yep. Those are Sunday "Ice Cream Ride" bikes...or bikes for the "My bike leaning on stuff" photos on FB. Racing bikes are tools to sharpen you.

[nathanong87]

This is not about one material vs the other, well not in the traditional sense of what makes the best bike. Instead I'm interested in thoughts about racing these carbon bikes that are expensive relative to many of their counterparts and the competitive advantage that makes them worth the extra cost. Full disclosure, I race a Speedvagen so I'm a bit of a hypocrite in the cost argument here.

race what you can replace.

[carpediemracing]

I tell people who race to get two bikes. I usually have two bikes so if I mess one up I have a reserve. If you can buy two of the bikes then it's probably not a major hardship to crash one. One of my friends got hit by a car, his bike was absolutely totaled, it was a high end Specialized (Tarmac/Red?). I happen to visit him a month or so later and I was surprised to see his bike in pristine shape in the basement.

"You got the bike fixed???"
"No, that's the spare bike. You told me to get a second bike so I bought two of the same bike."
"Oh."
I didn't realize he listened to me. Ha.

The stories behind the $10k bikes are an important part of why they race them. In this state there are some very wealthy people. One person dropped about $3000 to have a video made up of his first win (montage of pictures and stuff). He probably won $100 but that wasn't the point. Another showed up at a crit with a realistically $10k bike (based on shop discounts, custom carbon Parlee + Lightweights + brand new Campy Record + all sorts of exotic tidbits). They might be driving a $100k car daily, and go home to a $1-4 million house. Heck, some of the members here might be in that kind of fiscal level. I didn't realize this until after I was out of the bike biz but that's the way it is for some people. A local shop manager said they have this one customer, old guy, fan of cycling, and he'll go and buy various limited edition bikes. The last bike I know of was a limited edition Bianchi that was $10k, he just came in, said he wanted one, paid, and left. One of the local (now-ex-) racers drives a new Nissan GT-R. It's an $80k? car, however you cut it, worth more than all the cars we have put together, plus the trailer, plus maybe the last 5-6 cars we've had before.

On the other hand one guy actually apologized for his very nice bike. I commented on how nice it was at a race and the guy apologized, a bit embarrassed. He said that the shop owner of the club happens to ride the same size bike as him so he buys the owner's cast off bikes at a massive, massive discount. He said that everyone comments on his bikes but they're relatively inexpensive and he figured he might as well ride a nice bike for the same price. He was riding a limited edition Pinarello with Campy 11s Record and Zipps, I think it was a few thousand $ ($3500? $4500?). I asked because I was wondering if the owner was selling at cost or even employee type prices, but no, he was giving the rider a proper deal.

Just to be clear I'm not one of those people. I buy my bikes, I buy judiciously (my last three carbon wheels were used wheels), and I back out when it gets risky for me.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Nothing wrong with racing an expensive bike if you (a) can replace it when you crash, (b) can't afford to replace it but knowingly take the risk or (c) just want something really special for the occasion.

I met a guy at a local bike shop who was picking up his brand new $18,000 TT bike that he only uses for sprint triathlons. Does someone need a Lightweight disc and $1500 aerobar for a 12 mile bike leg? Probably not, and there's a decent chance someone will accidentally knock his bike off the rack in transition. But after a few tris, he fell head over heels for the sport and really wanted something different. The shop owner tells me he has nearly a dozen cars in his collection, so I'm guessing that $18K is a rounding error for him. I am lightyears away from whatever income bracket he inhabits, but it's fun to see a guy so excited about bikes.

In springing for my Seven, I also picked up a CAAD9 on the forum to serve as my race bike. I designed the Seven to be raceable, but I highly doubt I'd actually race it, and never in a crit. Replacement isn't in my budget. The CAAD9 fits great, rides great and I'd be very sad to destroy it. But if that did happen, I could track down another one and be out on the road again. Having a backup ready to go, however, would just piss off my wife.

[Chris]

I probably contributed to this swing to the financial aspect of it, but that wasn't my intent. I am more interested in the idea that for the guy running around the local/regional scene, who isn't a pro and getting a bike/mechanic provided, are these ultra light and seemingly fragile frames, the best choice as a race machine? I get Peter's point that any other frame might have been toasted in those crashes, but my buddy on the aluminum frame raced the next day. Another friend told me that the Soundpony (local team) lost 4 frames the weekend of Tulsa Tough to crashes. It just seems that we have tipped the scales a little far to lightest, stiffest, fastest, etc.

[commonguy001]

Back when I raced our team had some pretty good deals on the sponsor bikes (Bianchi) and most of us rode San Lorenzos which were a cheap scandium frame.
They rode ok and were pretty tough as I saw many survive some good crashes. If it did need to be replaced I'm pretty sure it didn't cost us much although I had two that never needed replacement.

One of our masters 50+ guys rode a really nice Merckx he ended up trashing it in a 40 minute crit, he had plenty of coin but replaced it with a San Lorenzo...

I'm not made of money so I'd ride something I could throw away and not worry about.

[John H.]

This- Don't race what you can't afford to replace.
That goes for high-end frames (be they carbon or some bespoke frame), DI2, Enve wheels, etc.
Sure they offer a performance advantage but you don't want to be in the poorhouse if you crash.
Take into account your own ability and also the category that you race in.
Seriously consider skipping crits in the rain unless it is part of a stage race.
High-end carbon fractures easily. Look at any of the broken S-works frames or similar frames. Bars can smash toptube, stays break pretty easy if you get T-boned.
I think the money for a race bike is the next level down- Like the Specialized "pro" or an aluminum like a Caad10.
Or even a carbon frame that has already been repaired.

Nothing wrong with racing an expensive bike if you (a) can replace it when you crash, (b) can't afford to replace it but knowingly take the risk or (c) just want something really special for the occasion.

I met a guy at a local bike shop who was picking up his brand new $18,000 TT bike that he only uses for sprint triathlons. Does someone need a Lightweight disc and $1500 aerobar for a 12 mile bike leg? Probably not, and there's a decent chance someone will accidentally knock his bike off the rack in transition. But after a few tris, he fell head over heels for the sport and really wanted something different. The shop owner tells me he has nearly a dozen cars in his collection, so I'm guessing that $18K is a rounding error for him. I am lightyears away from whatever income bracket he inhabits, but it's fun to see a guy so excited about bikes.

In springing for my Seven, I also picked up a CAAD9 on the forum to serve as my race bike. I designed the Seven to be raceable, but I highly doubt I'd actually race it, and never in a crit. Replacement isn't in my budget. The CAAD9 fits great, rides great and I'd be very sad to destroy it. But if that did happen, I could track down another one and be out on the road again. Having a backup ready to go, however, would just piss off my wife.

[John H.]

I do know a guy who crashed in a tt (head down, hit the front wheel of a spectator on side of the road).
In addition to severe whiplash he broke his frame (Shiv tt), Zipp disc and aero front wheel, tt helmet, expensive "smart skinsuit and booties)- it was an expensive day.
The only saving grace is that he was waiting for a Specialized McClaren tt helmet and Reynolds RZR wheel to arrive. Had they arrived, he would have killed those as well.

[EDS]

I probably contributed to this swing to the financial aspect of it, but that wasn't my intent. I am more interested in the idea that for the guy running around the local/regional scene, who isn't a pro and getting a bike/mechanic provided, are these ultra light and seemingly fragile frames, the best choice as a race machine? I get Peter's point that any other frame might have been toasted in those crashes, but my buddy on the aluminum frame raced the next day. Another friend told me that the Soundpony (local team) lost 4 frames the weekend of Tulsa Tough to crashes. It just seems that we have tipped the scales a little far to lightest, stiffest, fastest, etc.

Most Cat 3s and 4s on decent teams are able to purchase bikes at a significant discount, so don't assume the $6k bike cost the guy or gal $6k (more likely between 50% and 75% of that amount).

Most manufacturers also offer discounted crash replacement frames (so $1k instead of $3k for a new frame). Still a lot of money but every bit helps. Having friends also helps because I know many local racers who will help out their buddies with a bike or parts to bridge the gap before they can replace the items damaged in a crash.

Thanks to the good people at Calfee, Ruckus and others, carbon frames can be repaired for a lot less than buying a new frame.

[shovelhd]

I think it's a bit presumptuous for anyone to question what a racer chooses to race. It's their bike. It's their skin. It's their money.

The CAAD10 is a very nice frame but it doesn't hold a candle to what I race on. I'm the one pinning the number on so I get to decide which tools I use. You won't hear me whining at the replacement cost if I trash it in a race.

[CunegoFan]

$369.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqMOKi8E4Mb7NSlsBOJO1m2v!Q~~_35.JPG

[hida yanra]

Instead I'm interested in thoughts about racing these carbon bikes that are expensive relative to many of their counterparts and the competitive advantage that makes them worth the extra cost.
<snip>
relative fragility of the high end carbon compared to an aluminum frame (my buddy stacked it hard on Saturday on his CAAD 10 and raced on Sunday) doesn't seem like a great deal for a racer.
As has been mentioned, bicycles are a rounding error for some- and working at the shop I've often been surprised by whom those were and what they rode.

Relative fragility- depends. Some high-tensile, super-light carbon bikes are pretty brittle, but some carbon bikes can take a TON of abuse before anything significant happens. However- I've seen a TON of broken metal bikes. One cannondale caad9 was a christmas present, and on christmas someone's coffee mug got knocked off a table and onto the top tube- game over. The bike literally never got ridden.

Also worth noting, if you break an aluminum frame "it's all over"
Break a high-end carbon frame and it's usually repairable for quite a bit less than "manufacturer's crash-replacement" cost or buying the reference CAAD9/10.
I'm currently riding a rather fancy carbon bike that had cracked along the top tube and cost me sorta-nothing, had a local aerospace fancy-carbon-things friend repair it, presto-super-bike-o, my outlay... not much.

I can't do that with alum, and the outlay to do it with steel is quite a bit higher (equipment costs limit the number of people who can do it)

Carbon bikes truly are better and faster. End of story, promise. I used to be part of the "caad and aluminum is all a racer needs" mafia, then I spent some time with folks who are fast on a national level and found out that I was wrong.
How fast does one "need" to be before deciding that you should seek out a better bike? That's a whole different issue.

I usually tell my poor racer friends to look for lightly-broken carbon bikes- they really are a great bang-for-the-buck.

For typical US racing, 3 or 4 corner, industrial park crits, I'd get something cheap..like a Gunnar roadie with Veloce stuff and go crash and smash away..or any of a number of le$$ expensive aluminum frames and do the same.

The metal bike won't mean you won't win that day or any day.

Fitness
Finesse
Fat(lack thereof on the rider)
Fit(bike fit)

I rearranged those 'F's for you- love the list! I'll start using it if you don't mind.
Depending on what a racer wants in life, I'd just send them out there on the cheapest thing that won't fall apart.

My experience is that if a racer "NEEDS" something, someone else will show up to give it to them.
If people aren't giving you gear, "need" probably isn't the right term.
Examples from my team: One guy went from 5-2 in a season and was doing okay in the Cat 1/2 races at the end of the season. Wins all the way, he was an animal. He did it all on a Caad 3 with a Tiagra 9 speed drivetrain that was already beat to hell and the worst sort of Easton clinchers you can imagine. Like this image, but worse.
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Cannondale-R800-CAAD3-1997-road-bike-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/mIQAAMXQ~TtRKmxS/$T2eC16dHJHIE9nysfCCHBRKm)RoRQQ~~60_35.JPG

He legit needed a better bike, and he got one.
+35 4/5 guy? Even if they train a ton, odds are good they don't need anything better than they've got, no matter what they've got.

I think it's a bit presumptuous for anyone to question what a racer chooses to race. It's their bike. It's their skin. It's their money.

The CAAD10 is a very nice frame but it doesn't hold a candle to what I race on. I'm the one pinning the number on so I get to decide which tools I use. You won't hear me whining at the replacement cost if I trash it in a race.
^^^ this guy actually "needs" a good race rig, and he knows what's up.

another person's money is theirs, not mine. hurrah capitalism.
Good things are good, nicer things are nicer.

I'm racing on a nice carbon bike that is a few years old now- were I to have to replace it right now I'd buy a used "pretty much anything" and flog it until I got fast enough make my boss to buy something nicer.

~generalities only- all bicycles including HPVs exist along the same continuum YMMV.

[Black Dog]

I think it's a bit presumptuous for anyone to question what a racer chooses to race. It's their bike. It's their skin. It's their money.

The CAAD10 is a very nice frame but it doesn't hold a candle to what I race on. I'm the one pinning the number on so I get to decide which tools I use. You won't hear me whining at the replacement cost if I trash it in a race.

There is no way that any frame on planet earth is so much better than a bike like a CAAD 10 that it would make a measurable difference towards winning or loosing under almost every race situation. This is especially true at the weekend racer level. It really is the engine. I personally don't care what people ride as you said it is their money and their prerogative and certainly do not judge in any way.

[nathanong87]

The CAAD10 is a very nice frame but it doesn't hold a candle to what I race on

http://media.ziptied.com/members/files/270/gifs/sotheresickburn.gif

[Lewis Moon]

Over the course of my racing career I’ve gone from riding bikes that were made with the equivalent of gas pipe (SP) to those made with the equivalent of steel foil (S3). Over that time my bike has lost ~4 pounds, is stiffer, more comfortable and just better. I used to pay ~ $300 for frames when I started and now a good S# frame goes for around $1400. Check the inflation calculator here: http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ that price is just about spot on. I'll be looking for a carbon frame in the near future and expect to get socked for a bit of dosh, but I also expect that frame to be lighter and stiffer still. Time, technology and inflation march hand in hand.

[shovelhd]

There is no way that any frame on planet earth is so much better than a bike like a CAAD 10 that it would make a measurable difference towards winning or loosing under almost every race situation. This is especially true at the weekend racer level. It really is the engine. I personally don't care what people ride as you said it is their money and their prerogative and certainly do not judge in any way.

This is a shortsighted point of view. I've won races by less than a tire width. You mean to tell me that no part of the other guy's bike could have been improved enough to make a hundredth of a second's difference?

All you CAAD10 sycophants, I have already said that they are a very nice frame. To say that a "weekend racer" doesn't "need" anything more than that is just going down the same old want/need, have/have not, politically tinged battle that never ends well here.

How come it's ok for recreational riders to own several high zoot bikes but racers, especially crit racers, shouldn't be on anything more than what recreational riders deem appropriate? I don't tell you what to buy. Why are you telling me?

[Chris]

I wasn't being presumptuous. I don't care what you ride. Like I said, I ride/race a speedvagen. It's a great bike and I take the risk that if I stack it in some crash at a crit then I have to replace it. There's a difference between what you ride and what the best tool for the job might be. My point/question was is the uber light ultra sexy carbon bike the best tool for the job? Lots of people have made the point that it might be. It's just a discussion.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

I think someone needs to call us out (collectively) when we say "I don't judge others for riding nice stuff in a race." From what I've seen, many/most racers are happy to judge some guy showing up and racing Cat 4/5 on a $10,000 machine. And the same thing happens in bike shops by shop employees (I've never understood that), and on group rides. It seems to be some sort of unwritten code that says you have to be "X" fast to ride "Y" bike. My wife rides a Seven with Enve wheels, not because she races or is particularly fast, but because the bike actually fits her and the wheels are damn fun (and she sorta stole my wheels and won't give them back). Trust me, she gets plenty of judging looks, especially if she's out for a slow, "look at the birds" ride.

[Chris]

This is a shortsighted point of view. I've won races by less than a tire width. You mean to tell me that no part of the other guy's bike could have been improved enough to make a hundredth of a second's difference?

All you CAAD10 sycophants, I have already said that they are a very nice frame. To say that a "weekend racer" doesn't "need" anything more than that is just going down the same old want/need, have/have not, politically tinged battle that never ends well here.

How come it's ok for recreational riders to own several high zoot bikes but racers, especially crit racers, shouldn't be on anything more than what recreational riders deem appropriate? I don't tell you what to buy. Why are you telling me?

I don't think anyone is telling you what to ride. Stay on task and stop taking things so personally. I don't know you and I can promise you that I wasn't thinking about you when I posed the question. The only judgment I'm feeling in this thread has been from your posts.

[shovelhd]

Excellent point. Attitudes abound everywhere. I used to be surprised at what I saw showing up at the Cat5 start line, but I'm not anymore. I certainly don't judge anyone for it, until they start whining about their broken frame.

[hida yanra]

There is no way that any frame on planet earth is so much better than a bike like a CAAD 10 that it would make a measurable difference towards winning or loosing under almost every race situation. This is especially true at the weekend racer level. It really is the engine. I personally don't care what people ride as you said it is their money and their prerogative and certainly do not judge in any way.

<Edit: looks like I'm late to the party:>

If I can give you a list of dudes that didn't win crits because of the size of their tyres, I guarantee you that a super-high-end carbon super-bike vs good alloy bike is worth a bit.

[shovelhd]

I don't think anyone is telling you what to ride. Stay on task and stop taking things so personally. I don't know you and I can promise you that I wasn't thinking about you when I posed the question. The only judgment I'm feeling in this thread has been from your posts.

I'm not taking any of this personally, nor am I directing any of my comments to you directly. It's a conversation. I guess I failed in this regard. I can see how you could feel that way based on how I wrote my comments.

[Chris]

Excellent point. Attitudes abound everywhere. I used to be surprised at what I saw showing up at the Cat5 start line, but I'm not anymore. I certainly don't judge anyone for it, until they start whining about their broken frame.

Absolutely agreed. Again, my question was simply one about utility for the racer. Not about what people need/should be racing on.

[kgreene10]

My personal experience leads me to disagree with the claim that equipment doesn't matter unless you are a high-level racer. I'm still a Cat 4 and I put out 4.2 w/kg at FTP and I have a pretty lame sprint at about 1,100 w when I'm going good. I notice a real difference in a race if I'm on my carbon bike or my ti bike. The carbon bike allows me to accelerate and close gaps much easier and I climb faster. There's a lot of stop-start in lower level races so good acceleration is important and harder for us older guys. As for climbing, I did Tour of the Gila and I can't imagine racing that only ti bike.

My carbon frame is incredibly thin walled and brittle. It's a one-crash machine. But when I did crash it, I got it expertly repaired for $200. It's for sale, btw, in the classifieds as I have two of the same bike. But my point is that I wouldn't race my ti bike over carbon. I've never tried alu, so can't speak to that. Of course, I would be very happy to try the OP's Speedvagen. How much is shipping to Austin?

[Chris]

My personal experience leads me to disagree with the claim that equipment doesn't matter unless you are a high-level racer. I'm still a Cat 4 and I put out 4.2 w/kg at FTP and I have a pretty lame sprint at about 1,100 w when I'm going good. I notice a real difference in a race if I'm on my carbon bike or my ti bike. The carbon bike allows me to accelerate and close gaps much easier and I climb faster. There's a lot of stop-start in lower level races so good acceleration is important and harder for us older guys. As for climbing, I did Tour of the Gila and I can't imagine racing that only ti bike.

My carbon frame is incredibly thin walled and brittle. It's a one-crash machine. But when I did crash it, I got it expertly repaired for $200. It's for sale, btw, in the classifieds as I have two of the same bike. But my point is that I wouldn't race my ti bike over carbon. I've never tried alu, so can't speak to that. Of course, I would be very happy to try the OP's Speedvagen. How much is shipping to Austin?

Ha. How tall is you anyway? I race down there some, maybe we can see how the grass is greener sometime.

[hida yanra]

Chris (OP):
these conversations pretty well always get taken off track, but I think your original question was a reasonable one.

Utility is REAL tough to define and tougher to quantify.
Seems to me that most all modern road bikes are "good enough to race", and that buying improvements/speed is both possible and also not "necessary".

Carbon things are often better- they are also often repairable in ways that metal either is not capable of, or is not cost effective to do.

[Chris]

The repair ability issue is a strong argument being made here. Things like that were what I was interested in. Not the class warfare.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

One of the takeaways I'm getting from this is that people read different things into the word "need." I think it's a combination of goals and relative ability. The odds of me winning a race are pretty slim; I'm there to get some kicks and race for 15th. If I end up 14th or 16th, it's all pretty much the same. If I actually started training with purpose, set clear goals, and brought my ability on par with other guys at the front, then my needs will change.

It's sort of like tire choice with race cars. If you ask a Porsche to race a Yaris, then any tires will do (within reason). Similarly, if I stuck any of the Blue Train guys on my CAAD and dropped him into a Cat 4 crit, of course he would win. He doesn't "need" much of anything to beat us chumps. But that's not the point. The better comparison (especially for those who are racing to win) is if you are racing two Porsches (or to Yarises/Yari). Then, tire choice will matter quite a lot. And similarly, someone who has the talent to win and is racing equally talented guys should care quite a lot about what frame (or wheels, or gruppo...) he chooses. That's not to say one has to buy the most expensive thing. Bikes get crashed, and durability will be more or less of a purchasing factor for different riders. But I think it changes the mental calculus a bit.

[shovelhd]

Absolutely agreed. Again, my question was simply one about utility for the racer. Not about what people need/should be racing on.

I think we have answered this. Your argument (or postulate, premise, or whatever you'd like to call it) is based on a limited set of data, the example you posed in the OP.

Aluminum frames are not inherently more damage resistant than carbon. I could show you dozens of CAAD frames that didn't make it.

Aluminum frames are generally not cost effective to repair. Carbon is easily and relatively cheaply repaired.

Crash replacement policies of major manufacturers reduce replacement cost to well below retail. In my case it was 50%.

[christian]

I race cat 5 crits on a Colnago Extreme Power. Used carbon is cheap enough these days that these discussions about high cost don't make any sense. If I crash it, I'll buy texbike's C50 for a grand. Big whoop. It's a bicycle.

[bcroslin]

but racing an aluminum frame doesn't look pro! ;)

why anyone would race on a $10k bike of any kind for a pair of socks and false sense of pride is beyond me. but, it's not my money so whatever.


Aluminum frames are not inherently more damage resistant than carbon. I could show you dozens of CAAD frames that didn't make it.


While that might be true I know a collegiate racer that rode a CAAD10 for a season and was involved in several crashes. His drive-side chain stay was nearly crushed flat and yet he was still able to race the frame and podium several more times before finally throwing the frame away.

[shovelhd]

It's definitely not for everyone.

[54ny77]

why eat tuna sushi when star kist is the same thing?

;)



why anyone would race on a $10k bike of any kind for a pair of socks and false sense of pride is beyond me. but, it's not my money so whatever.

[hida yanra]

collegiate racer <snip> <summarized: bad choices>

I've seen collegiate racers do a wide range of things I wouldn't find to be advisable or contributory to the safety of those around them. Sometimes they didn't have any repercussions, sometimes they did.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

I've seen college kids do a wide range of things I wouldn't find to be advisable or contributory to the safety of those around them. Sometimes they didn't have any repercussions, sometimes they did.

Fixed it for ya.

[hida yanra]

as someone who was mentoring a bunch of collegiate racers the last two years- "yes"

There was great fun-having in the races, I could always tell who could have given more by how much "fun-having" there was in the evenings before the next day's pedaling contests.

[dan682]

why anyone would race on a $10k bike of any kind for a pair of socks and false sense of pride is beyond me. but, it's not my money so whatever.


Why is it a false sense of pride to podium in a 4/5 race? In what category is one allowed to start being proud of winning?

[54ny77]

didn't you get the memo?

you're only allowed to opine, ride an expensive bike, or be worthy of recognition in general on an online bike forum if you're under or simply un-employed, riding 400 mi./wk., wear xs sized clothes, and "killing it" as cat 3 pack fill. oh and have at least 1 full all-white kit and sport 10cm of bar drop. don't forget the lycra booties.

:p

Why is it a false sense of pride to podium in a 4/5 race? In what category is one allowed to start being proud of winning?

[Rusty Luggs]

Is there a better reason for buying a high end carbon racing frame than to race it?

[sevencyclist]

I don't race on aluminum or carbon bikes. I only race on steel frames.

Because that is the only material I have. :banana:

[Ti Designs]

I think y'all have missed one key point: Any four guys wearing lycra and riding bikes is a bike race.


Christian, just for comparison, what was your most expensive car crash?

[texbike]

Christian, just for comparison, what was your most expensive car crash?

Now THIS should be interesting... :)

Texbike

[shovelhd]

didn't you get the memo?

you're only allowed to opine, ride an expensive bike, or be worthy of recognition in general on an online bike forum if you're under or simply un-employed, riding 400 mi./wk., wear xs sized clothes, and "killing it" as cat 3 pack fill. oh and have at least 1 full all-white kit and sport 10cm of bar drop. don't forget the lycra booties.

:p

Outstanding!

[christian]

Christian, just for comparison, what was your most expensive car crash?The car we totaled in Colorado in 2005 had few usable parts left - the engine came off the mounts etc.

Figure with the parts and about 800 hours of labor building it, replacement cost would be somewhere around $200,000-250,000. We were lucky that that crash was in a cheap car, actually. A World Rally car would be three times the cost.

Obviously, I didn't own the cars.

But yeah, only race what you can replace.

[christian]

Is there a better reason for buying a high end carbon racing frame than to race it?i like this guy!

[Tandem Rider]

Race the best you can afford, you define afford. Why else are you going to buy it? Are you going to train hard enough to race well and then give everyone else an advantage?

Buy it, chamois up, number up, GO!

[bcroslin]

Why is it a false sense of pride to podium in a 4/5 race? In what category is one allowed to start being proud of winning?

I keep forgetting that weekend racing for 40-50 year old's is SERIOUS BUSINESS. :p

Look, racing bikes is supposed to be about fun but what I see too often is old dudes buying VERY expensive bikes and racing them because they seem to think the more expensive the bike the faster they'll be. It's just not true. I happen to live in an area where there's a huge tri community and it's not out-of-ordinary to see guys show up on the training ride on a $15k TT rig and get blown out the back when the pace picks up and they're left scratching their heads. The fastest guys I know are riding aluminum bikes and frames made from carbon that was state of the art in 2005. It's not the arrow, it's the indian.

[stien]

I still don't see the problem with getting an epic deal on an uber expensive rig. In theory, did my bike cost more than your car? Maybe, but I didn't pay that.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

I keep forgetting that weekend racing for 40-50 year old's is SERIOUS BUSINESS. :p

Look, racing bikes is supposed to be about fun but what I see too often is old dudes buying VERY expensive bikes and racing them because they seem to think the more expensive the bike the faster they'll be. It's just not true. I happen to live in an area where there's a huge tri community and it's not out-of-ordinary to see guys show up on the training ride on a $15k TT rig and get blown out the back when the pace picks up and they're left scratching their heads. The fastest guys I know are riding aluminum bikes and frames made from carbon that was state of the art in 2005. It's not the arrow, it's the indian.

You win for ridiculous post of the day.

[christian]

Yeah, God knows it's more sensible to waste Sunday mornings racing around an office park on a $1500 Allez with Ultegra than it is to waste Sunday mornings racing around an office park on a $2300 Colnago with Record.

[bcroslin]

You win for ridiculous post of the day.

Do I get a pair of socks and a water bottle?

[54ny77]

here's a thought: worry about yourself, not others. like you said, enjoy the ride, it's about fun, right?

you live in god's waiting room (a.k.a. florida), maybe those old guys on pricey rigs are, well, just plain slow?

the fastest "old" guys i know (let's call 'em 55-60+), who happen to have various state, nat'l and world titles, and who could hand many a young chap who fancies himself "epic" their dirty chamois, ride very expensive carbon bikes. go figure!

:banana:

I keep forgetting that weekend racing for 40-50 year old's is SERIOUS BUSINESS. :p

Look, racing bikes is supposed to be about fun but what I see too often is old dudes buying VERY expensive bikes and racing them because they seem to think the more expensive the bike the faster they'll be. It's just not true. I happen to live in an area where there's a huge tri community and it's not out-of-ordinary to see guys show up on the training ride on a $15k TT rig and get blown out the back when the pace picks up and they're left scratching their heads. The fastest guys I know are riding aluminum bikes and frames made from carbon that was state of the art in 2005. It's not the arrow, it's the indian.

[mcteague]

Titanium! Not indestructible but damned near.

Tim

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Do I get a pair of socks and a water bottle?

You want both? Getting greedy!

I've ridden in your 'hood a little bit (in-laws are retired in St. Pete). Yep, there are some guys who are not at risk of breaking any speed limits who nontheless ride expensive machines. But I've also ridden with some 65+ former road and track champs who live down there, and they also ride expensive stuff (and ripped my legs off). Both groups seem to be having a blast riding their bikes, which is sorta the point of all of this.

[ThaRiddla]

race what you can replace.

Never has a truer word been spoken

[shovelhd]

Do I get a pair of socks and a water bottle?

13 weeks into 2014. I could buy a few of those.

http://i331.photobucket.com/albums/l453/shovelfl/bikeforums/cash_zpse72e3b38.jpg

This is not the first time this train of thought has been expressed on this forum. I would seriously like to understand where it is all coming from, in a non-confrontational way.

Is it because there are old guys racing?
Is it because there are fast old guys?
Is it because there are old guys racing who could be faster than you?
Is it because you think amateur racing is silly?
Is it because you think awarding prizes for amateur racing is silly?

What is it about old guys racing that drives you to mock us?

[54ny77]

http://www.ted.me/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/naked-man_bicycle_not_young_in_sex-201x300-1.jpg

Will race for clothing primes.

:banana:

[shovelhd]

You did not ask for permission to post my naked ride picture. My attorney will contact you shortly. What size was your Meivici?

[AngryScientist]

some of these comments are simply laughable. anyone who throws a leg over a bike and pins a number is OK in my book, it takes at least some base fitness and a desire to improve ones self to compete in any athletic endeavor.

the money involved in racing bicycles is comically low compared to some other pursuits "old guys" can have, which dont involve near the athletic ability.

[gemship]

Does it make any sense at all to race a bike on an amateur level?

Even a 1500$ bike is just the stepping stone. There is the cost of riding apparel, food, entry fees, a vehicle to get you there with your bike(s) and fuel costs.

I recently met a woman on a date and as I learned more about her she told me of a time she enjoyed competing in triathlons. I think she was 33 maybe 35 years old at the time, she stated that she was really good at the swimming and running but the biking not so much. She narrowed it down to one simple thing, bikes are mechanical and she simply was not inclined. I did ask her about her bike and the "fit" she looked at me puzzled, this was her response. What I gathered from her experience is some people just don't get bike maintenance and really understand how brakes and gear changes work. So we have a lot of folks that really just reduce riding a bicycle to pedaling when at a competitive level there is so much more to it than that. I think to be successful and have fun on a bike especially racing you have to be somewhat of a geek in terms of being mechanically inclined.


Personally I love the idea of racing a bike or even fast club rides but there is another reality at least for me, I enjoy my health regarding not being injured. I have read of to many accidents on this forum alone to really embrace the idea of racing. In that sense who cares about the bike? Your lucky to be able to finish the ride with out skinning yourself.

[bcroslin]

13 weeks into 2014. I could buy a few of those.

http://i331.photobucket.com/albums/l453/shovelfl/bikeforums/cash_zpse72e3b38.jpg

This is not the first time this train of thought has been expressed on this forum. I would seriously like to understand where it is all coming from, in a non-confrontational way.

Is it because there are old guys racing?
Is it because there are fast old guys?
Is it because there are old guys racing who could be faster than you?
Is it because you think amateur racing is silly?
Is it because you think awarding prizes for amateur racing is silly?

What is it about old guys racing that drives you to mock us?

Just FYI - I'm no spring chicken myself and as 54ny77 mentioned the average age of the riders in my neck of the woods is geriatric. It just seems like this thread got real serous real fast for some reason. I was being a bit of a smart ass probably because it's pouring rain here and I didn't get to ride this morning. But I still say it's not the bike but the legs pedaling it. With that said, and since you asked, I do indeed feel like amateur racing can be a little silly and I say that as someone who races. I stopped racing crits because I was tired of dealing with humorless type-A's talking about training with power and bragging about how amazing they're new $10k bike is. I took up CX and mtb racing and I've never looked back because the people are so much more fun and everyone understands we have jobs to go back to on Monday morning so it's in all of our best interests to not try and kill each other for socks and a turn on the podium.

Anyway, no mocking or judging. If my post came off that way I apologize.

[54ny77]

Hey man, I ride aluminum.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/occupybikes_zps6bd65b7f.png (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/jpmz06/media/Bike/occupybikes_zps6bd65b7f.png.html)

You did not ask for permission to post my naked ride picture. My attorney will contact you shortly. What size was your Meivici?

[gemship]

Just FYI - I'm no spring chicken myself and as 54ny77 mentioned the average age of the riders in my neck of the woods is geriatric. It just seems like this thread got real serous real fast for some reason. I was being a bit of a smart ass probably because it's pouring rain here and I didn't get to ride this morning. But I still say it's not the bike but the legs pedaling it. With that said, and since you asked, I do indeed feel like amateur racing can be a little silly and I say that as someone who races. I stopped racing crits because I was tired of dealing with humorless type-A's talking about training with power and bragging about how amazing they're new $10k bike is. I took up CX and mtb racing and I've never looked back because the people are so much more fun and everyone understands we have jobs to go back to on Monday morning so it's in all of our best interests to not try and kill each other for socks and a turn on the podium.

Anyway, no mocking or judging. If my post came off that way I apologize.


Your post is duly noted and no apologies required. The ego's that scoffed at you are just that and they take themselves way too seriously. It's one of those things we can read about and have a laugh at...the human comedy of first world problems for some on the Paceline forum. As if to justify themselves and to what end?- I guess if it makes them feel better about what they do with their time, the money they spend, etc, etc.

[shovelhd]

Just FYI - I'm no spring chicken myself and as 54ny77 mentioned the average age of the riders in my neck of the woods is geriatric. It just seems like this thread got real serous real fast for some reason. I was being a bit of a smart ass probably because it's pouring rain here and I didn't get to ride this morning. But I still say it's not the bike but the legs pedaling it. With that said, and since you asked, I do indeed feel like amateur racing can be a little silly and I say that as someone who races. I stopped racing crits because I was tired of dealing with humorless type-A's talking about training with power and bragging about how amazing they're new $10k bike is. I took up CX and mtb racing and I've never looked back because the people are so much more fun and everyone understands we have jobs to go back to on Monday morning so it's in all of our best interests to not try and kill each other for socks and a turn on the podium.

Anyway, no mocking or judging. If my post came off that way I apologize.

No need to apologize. You race cross and MTB. I'm sorry you had a negative experience racing road. I haven't had that same experience. Good luck with your season.

[shovelhd]

Your post is duly noted and no apologies required. The ego's that scoffed at you are just that and they take themselves way too seriously. It's one of those things we can read about and have a laugh at...the human comedy of first world problems for some on the Paceline forum. As if to justify themselves and to what end?- I guess if it makes them feel better about what they do with their time, the money they spend, etc, etc.

Can we try and keep this non-confrontational?

I'll ask you the same questions. What is it that makes you feel this way?

[gemship]

Can we try and keep this non-confrontational?

I'll ask you the same questions. What is it that makes you feel this way?

you already have been confrontational and I put my two cents in. :rolleyes:


Seriously it's a funny ego driven thread that truly is ridiculous on any given level. Not much to say here at all. You guys really are just lucky to make thru a race without road rash, broken collarbones etc.

[54ny77]

Have you ever done anything competitively? A pickup game in hoops, maybe tennis, running, volleyball, bbq cooking contest, spelling bees, even chess?

Some folks are competitive. Some activities are designed around competition with others, or even with oneself. Are you going to make fun of 10 year olds at a national spelling bee because it's amateur spelling?

You're making your own judgement as to something's value or importance. Consider, you're just as right or wrong as anyone else who chooses to do what they do, for whatever reason they do it.


Seriously it's a funny ego driven thread that truly is ridiculous on any given level. Not much to say here at all. You guys really are just lucky to make thru a race without road rash, broken collarbones etc.

[Joachim]

13 weeks into 2014. I could buy a few of those.

http://i331.photobucket.com/albums/l453/shovelfl/bikeforums/cash_zpse72e3b38.jpg

This is not the first time this train of thought has been expressed on this forum. I would seriously like to understand where it is all coming from, in a non-confrontational way.

Is it because there are old guys racing?
Is it because there are fast old guys?
Is it because there are old guys racing who could be faster than you?
Is it because you think amateur racing is silly?
Is it because you think awarding prizes for amateur racing is silly?

What is it about old guys racing that drives you to mock us?

Whatever

[christian]

amateur spelling?If there were a professional orthography circuit, I wouldn't be stuck here at work now. I'd be reaping the spoils of being a professional speller. It'd be like being a copy editor, but even more baller!

[carpediemracing]

I keep forgetting that weekend racing for 40-50 year old's is SERIOUS BUSINESS. :p

Look, racing bikes is supposed to be about fun but what I see too often is old dudes buying VERY expensive bikes and racing them because they seem to think the more expensive the bike the faster they'll be. It's just not true. I happen to live in an area where there's a huge tri community and it's not out-of-ordinary to see guys show up on the training ride on a $15k TT rig and get blown out the back when the pace picks up and they're left scratching their heads. The fastest guys I know are riding aluminum bikes and frames made from carbon that was state of the art in 2005. It's not the arrow, it's the indian.

Not sure if you're mixing tri and road stuff but I'm pretty sure that most of the mass start racers who have nicer bikes know that the bike doesn't mean that much. It's fun to think about, it's fun to buy stuff, but in the end the reality is that the bike, except for fit and at some level wheels, doesn't make that much difference.

For tris I can't say because I don't know many tri people.

you already have been confrontational and I put my two cents in. :rolleyes:

Seriously it's a funny ego driven thread that truly is ridiculous on any given level. Not much to say here at all. You guys really are just lucky to make thru a race without road rash, broken collarbones etc.

Not answering the question only discredits you.

I should point out that since I can't climb well I basically race only crits, which I think are the safest races for me.

Although racing is inherently dangerous by definition, for me there's much less perceived danger in a race than in a group ride or even, at some level, a solo training ride. It's unlikely in a crit to deal with a texting driver in a car or cars running red lights or stop signs, I get to recon the course and know it within a lap or three (although most of them I already know), and the others around me are at least minimally aware of proper riding technique in a group. Finally if I think it's really bad (dangerous riders or whatever) I can always bail, and in some races I've done just that.

Example of something I haven't dealt with in a race - this car started accelerating when I was directly in front of it, after I started moving from a full stop at a 3 way stop sign.
https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t1.0-9/313470_10150393400223824_402547330_n.jpg

He's almost stopped here:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t1.0-9/307429_10150393407448824_111773467_n.jpg

I wear a helmet cam when I train primarily so that if I get killed out there my wife will have some idea of what happened. I'm a risk averse rider/racer and that is one of many things I do to minimize the chances of an incident when I'm out training.

Racing for me is usually about doing the best I can. Nowadays it's also about sharing my experience and helping others do the best they can (so in the B races on Tuesday Nights I specifically try not to do well but instead try to help other less experienced racers, by my choice). Again, a detail, when I say "best they can" I mean on that day, given their fitness, equipment, etc. I'm not a good person to talk to about training.

My recent efforts led to this race report (http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2014/05/racing-ccap-tuesday-night-race-may-27.html). If you don't feel like reading it it's basically me responding to other racers's requests for help with "how to race", resulting in a massive transformation in terms of racing technique and tactics in just one week. Nothing about equipment (except relating to fit), just technique and an approach to life.

Prior efforts led to holding clinics to teach new racers some basics of racing. Shovel was one of the instructors from the beginning, the only one to help with all three years of clinics. He's not local so he was driving 3 hours to arrive at 7:30 AM to help with the clinic. It's usually cold and miserable and it's not something for everyone. Other than free entry he didn't get anything out of it so to label him as any kind of self centered person is a mistake. He's since started a similar clinic at a series of training races, free to the racers, staffed by folks like him, volunteers. Shovel is too modest to point out the things he does for the sport.

Yes, I did a Masters race last Saturday and I tried to do well for myself. There are days where I want to see how well I can do, not see how many racers I can teach about wind direction.

Since sometime in March I've been on a 1-2 hour per week schedule. I've been eating mainly hot dogs, hamburgers, and ice cream. Despite this non-training I've been having a blast at the races this year, they've been tons of fun.

Racing is about what the rider takes away from it. You may have your opinions on what racing is about, but for me, and for many others, it's an engaging, fascinating, never-mastered sport that lets one strive to be the best they can.

[shovelhd]

you already have been confrontational and I put my two cents in. :rolleyes:


Seriously it's a funny ego driven thread that truly is ridiculous on any given level. Not much to say here at all. You guys really are just lucky to make thru a race without road rash, broken collarbones etc.

:fight:

Asking a few questions is confrontational? Meanwhile you mention ego twice. Everyone has an ego, even you. What makes yours different than mine?

Luck is part of staying upright in races but skill, awareness, and common sense are much more important factors. I had my wheel chopped hard at 35mph a few weeks ago. It probably would have taken a less experienced racer down. Dumb stuff happens. It's how you handle it that matters.

[gemship]

[QUOTE=carpediemracing;1565720]

"Not answering the question only discredits you."

In this case no. You are wrong. I stated my opinion as others have. The question directed toward me was already answered so nothing more to add. I don't expect to convince anyone here that how I live my life is the right way or my views are the right ones.

I do respect you for frowning upon street riding and believing it can be more dangerous than your racing, that is your perceived reality.
It's just an opinion....get over yourselves.

[gemship]

Have you ever done anything competitively? A pickup game in hoops, maybe tennis, running, volleyball, bbq cooking contest, spelling bees, even chess?

Some folks are competitive. Some activities are designed around competition with others, or even with oneself. Are you going to make fun of 10 year olds at a national spelling bee because it's amateur spelling?

You're making your own judgement as to something's value or importance. Consider, you're just as right or wrong as anyone else who chooses to do what they do, for whatever reason they do it.

Hey Swoop that you?

[Joachim]

Hey Swoop that you?

Swoop would say that no one here knows what they are talking about

Besides, I thought his thread is about race bikes... Now it turned into something about Freudian Es, Ich and Uber-ich

[gemship]

Swoop would say that no one here knows what they are talking about

Besides, I thought his thread is about race bikes... Now it turned into something about Freudian ego's.

Well Joachim you gotta appreciate the situation. You see I was asked if I was swoop by the guy that I asked if he was swoop. This is a long standing question. I really don't know who swoop is, still trying to figure that one out:p

[54ny77]

that cracked me up. i had know idea what the heck you were talking about. i asked you that same question some time ago?

too funny.

anyone know what happened to swoop by the way? did he finally step into a transformation machine a la "brundlefly" and become one with his speedvagen?

Well Joachim you gotta appreciate the situation. You see I was asked if I was swoop by the guy that I asked if he was swoop. This is a long standing question. I really don't know who swoop is, still trying to figure that one out:p

[gemship]

that cracked me up. i had know idea what the heck you were talking about. i asked you that same question some time ago?

too funny.

anyone know what happened to swoop by the way? did he finally step into a transformation machine a la "brundlefly" and become one with his speedvagen?

It was one of those cabin fever threads from a while ago. I got flamed by a bunch of members for saying I didn't think Betsy and Frankie were quite so innocent and then you came out of left field with the hey swoop is that you question. Yeah it's funny... I figured I would play along. I assume swoop is this controversial figure around here but alas his time was long before mine.

[CunegoFan]

I happen to live in an area where there's a huge tri community and it's not out-of-ordinary to see guys show up on the training ride on a $15k TT rig and get blown out the back when the pace picks up and they're left scratching their heads.

Triathlon is hilarious. Guys running four and a half hour plus marathons in IMs obsessing about which "super" bike they need to buy and they are like thirty pounds overweight. It always cracks me up.

[wildboar]

.

[wildboar]

Personally I love the idea of racing a bike or even fast club rides but there is another reality at least for me, I enjoy my health regarding not being injured. I have read of to many accidents on this forum alone to really embrace the idea of racing. In that sense who cares about the bike? Your lucky to be able to finish the ride with out skinning yourself.


Don't forget the cost of the helmet cam:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1S9xB9FBMM

[brando]

There are a lot of photographers at amateur bike races. Gotta look fast.