Big chain ring vs smaller

[wc1934]

On yesterday's ride, I stayed in the big chainring for almost the entire time (even on climbs - of course I moved freely thruout the cassette- mostly in the middle). I was way less tired and more comfortable than when I did the exact same route last time but in the smaller CR.
Coincidence, or does going slower cause more fatigue or is there another explanation.
Thanks.

[jtakeda]

Spinning is more cardio than mashing the big ring.

You're leg muscles are probably stronger than your cardio so when you are using less legs and more cardio it feels harder.

[regularguy412]

Spinning is more cardio than mashing the big ring.

You're leg muscles are probably stronger than your cardio so when you are using less legs and more cardio it feels harder.

^^^ This ^^^ at least, for me.

I'm more of a sprinter-type -- more fast-twitch -- not so much of a climber. Years ago,, after I got a 'real' bike fit when I purchased my CSI, I switched from 170 mm cranks to 172.5. Now, that doesn't sound like much of a change, but for me it was a big difference. I managed to slow down my cadence just that little bit. It seemed to allow my muscles just that little extra recovery time on every pedal stroke. I mean, I could 'do' the cadence, no problem,, but I'd tend to go into the red zone much more easily. Slowing the cadence and pushing a slightly bigger gear (due to the cranks), seemed to help me a lot with effort vs. recovery vs. over all fatigue. The longer cranks 'converted' into my having a better ability to use the big ring more consistently -- even if I was in a lower gear-inch cog in the back.

As I get older, I find that I run out of 'heart beats'. My max HR has slightly declined in the last few years - from ~ 180 to now down to ~ 175. My resting HR is about the same as it has been for last few years ~ 48. I've measured my resting HR as low as 42. What this all means, to me, is the HR delta is what it is. I don't have those few extra heart beats to throw at a climb. I tend to use a few more matches (read: mash) and turn a slightly higher gear. I use the small ring only as a last resort. because the higher cadence on a climb seems to only build more lactic acid and I don't go as fast, anyway. Also, when turning slower, it's easier for me to concentrate on pushing 'from the hips/glutes''. Those muscles don't seem to be as susceptible to lactic acid build up as the quads.

Mike in AR:beer:

[cmg]

use to be a masher but the knees say no more. spent saturdays ride (lots of rollers, 55 miler) in the 39 for about 70% of the time. only put it in the big ring during the flats. Keeps me from getting dead legs after the ride.

[bikenut]

^^^ This ^^^ at least, for me.

I'm more of a sprinter-type -- more fast-twitch -- not so much of a climber. Years ago,, after I got a 'real' bike fit when I purchased my CSI, I switched from 170 mm cranks to 172.5. Now, that doesn't sound like much of a change, but for me it was a big difference. I managed to slow down my cadence just that little bit. It seemed to allow my muscles just that little extra recovery time on every pedal stroke. I mean, I could 'do' the cadence, no problem,, but I'd tend to go into the red zone much more easily. Slowing the cadence and pushing a slightly bigger gear (due to the cranks), seemed to help me a lot with effort vs. recovery vs. over all fatigue. The longer cranks 'converted' into my having a better ability to use the big ring more consistently -- even if I was in a lower gear-inch cog in the back.

As I get older, I find that I run out of 'heart beats'. My max HR has slightly declined in the last few years - from ~ 180 to now down to ~ 175. My resting HR is about the same as it has been for last few years ~ 48. I've measured my resting HR as low as 42. What this all means, to me, is the HR delta is what it is. I don't have those few extra heart beats to throw at a climb. I tend to use a few more matches (read: mash) and turn a slightly higher gear. I use the small ring only as a last resort. because the higher cadence on a climb seems to only build more lactic acid and I don't go as fast, anyway. Also, when turning slower, it's easier for me to concentrate on pushing 'from the hips/glutes''. Those muscles don't seem to be as susceptible to lactic acid build up as the quads.

Mike in AR:beer:

Your findings appear opposite of what I have always read. I am trying to concentrate on spinning more and conserving energy for the climbs. I am much like you, years of weight lifting. I am strong but the lighter guys kill me on the climbs.

[bikenut]

On yesterday's ride, I stayed in the big chainring for almost the entire time (even on climbs - of course I moved freely thruout the cassette- mostly in the middle). I was way less tired and more comfortable than when I did the exact same route last time but in the smaller CR.
Coincidence, or does going slower cause more fatigue or is there another explanation.
Thanks.

Regardless of what cr you are in, it is your cadence that matters. Since switching to a compact 50/34 crank, I do most of my ride in the big ring utilizing most of the cassette. When I look at some friends with standard cranks, they spend most of the time in the small cr cross chaining to smaller rear cogs. For our abilities, I feel my setup is more efficient.

[MattTuck]

If you are able to ride climbs in the big ring, you are either very light, very strong or not riding very big hills.

The only time that I limit to one chain ring is on recovery days when I stay in the small (on my compact) chain ring the whole ride. Other than that, it is about finding the right gear ratio for my desired cadence and output. Since there is some over lap between the gear ranges accessible from the small and big ring, I adjust mostly for optimal chain line. If I look down and see that I am massively cross chained, I'll move it to the other ring and find the right cog.

[Shortsocks]

I love to climb. I also weigh 130-132 and I'm 5'9. I do not have big engine. Just the way it is...wish it wasn't like that but it is. I ride a 53T and generally never go into the small ring. I ride a slower cadence and I've tried a 50T, to spin more just doesn't work for me. When In climbs, in Texas, I'm never in the small ring.

When in Santa Fe for two weeks though. 5000+ feet of climbing in 15 miles. Yes I do use the small ring. But around here, In Texas, I climb short 11% climbs without even blinking in the 53.

For me it's not a machismo thing. We are all just built differently. I get my ass kicked ALL THE time by spinners.

[carpediemracing]

On yesterday's ride, I stayed in the big chainring for almost the entire time (even on climbs - of course I moved freely thruout the cassette- mostly in the middle). I was way less tired and more comfortable than when I did the exact same route last time but in the smaller CR.
Coincidence, or does going slower cause more fatigue or is there another explanation.
Thanks.

I think you're chasing a red herring with the chainring thing. You probably had a better day, or, if you did the route a few months ago etc then you're just in better shape.

As pointed out you may have more muscular strength vs aerobic strength, but how you feel the day after is more an indication of things like fitness, recovery, diet, etc.

Keep in mind that if your power output was the same then your power output was the same. I had a hard time wrapping my head around this until I experimented on a steep, 6-8 minute climb (for me anyway).

I could be in any gear and I could push 400-600w at the beginning, struggle at 300-400w in the middle, blow up, then slog 200-230w to the top. At the beginning it didn't matter if I used a huge gear (53x15), moderate (53x19, 39x14), or lower (39x17 or so). At the top again it didn't matter if I was slogging a 39x25 or 39x23 or even a 39x21, I still had the same wattage.

[redir]

I agree with CDR too many variables at play. Chalk that one up as coincidence.

[SlackMan]

...You probably had a better day, or, if you did the route a few months ago etc then you're just in better shape...

I agree with the point above. If you want to do this right, pick some future dates over the next few weeks, and designate them now as big or small chainring days. You don't want to decide which chainring to pick the same day that you ride because then how you feel contaminates the choice. Then ride a sample of big chainring days and a sample of small chainring days to see if your impressions of how you feel are borne out.

[MattTuck]

I agree with the point above. If you want to do this right, pick some future dates over the next few weeks, and designate them now as big or small chainring days. You don't want to decide which chainring to pick the same day that you ride because then how you feel contaminates the choice. Then ride a sample of big chainring days and a sample of small chainring days to see if your impressions of how you feel are borne out.

And if you really want the results to be unimpeachable, you should have someone else select whether the randomly selected days will be big or small chain ring days, and they won't tell you which is which. They'll set the bike up for you that day with the appropriate chainring already in gear for your ride, and you won't look down during the whole ride. Need to keep it blinded to avoid any placebo or other effects.

[Ralph]

I'm 73 with 73 year old knees.....so have to treat them carefully. Having said that.....a couple years ago, I started riding with some guys around my age who were faster than me....some a lot faster than I was. I had to keep up, or ride a lot by myself after getting dropped. I was always mostly a spinner in smaller chain ring (how we were taught), but just couldn't go fast enough to keep up in small ring. And truthfully.....in big ring was probably a little afraid of using the small cog side of cassette in big ring. Just figured that was territory I couldn't handle.

Now.....a few are still faster than I am (and a lot stronger), but I don't get dropped any more. I've learned to use that big ring. Got my bikes set up to ride faster. To get on top of the gears, get into an efficient riding position, get the speed up in the big ring, and keep it there. It's true it's mostly flat to rolling hills around here, but just finished up our almost daily 45 miler, and I used every big gear I had this AM (52X13 tallest). Did my share of pulling also. I think in addition to building up the strength to spin the big ring, part of it is confidence you can do it, and then know how. Equipment helps some. Good wheels in the 20-25 MPH range sure help when you're working hard in a pace line.

[triguy66]

I switched to a 50 ring on the front, great for the flats, I run a 26 on the back and hardly ever have to shift into the small ring. Spinners are winners.

[Tony]

One of the things that has helped me this year in both big and small rings is learning how to paint circles. I was always taught to pedal as if I'm scraping poop off my shoe. This is really not pedaling in circles. I listened to Ed, watched his videos and spent months painting circles, not pedaling with just the ball of my feet but my entire foot from ball to heel weighing the entire foot and feeling the whole shoe underneath my foot. Engaging all four muscle group has made a huge difference in performance. This has lead me to change my saddle height and position, cleat position, shoes (fit correctly), insoles. I don't bounce as I spin in lower gears and seem to have more power with less fatigue in the bigger gears.

[Tony]

I would like to add that painting circles has been great for my relationship!
I've learned not to push my wife, so I now paint circles when we ride together. I'll do sets with each leg as I rest the other attached to the pedal, she doesn't even know it :)

[regularguy412]

True -- there are not many 'big, long' climbs in this area of NE Arkansas. Much of the area around here is flat, Mississippi delta land, except for the 'Ridge' which averages 200 to 600 feet above the surrounding terrain. Most of the rides I do include about a 50/50 mix of flats and climbing. I usually end up crossing the Ridge 2 or 3 times. So, yes, I can big ring most of the climbs -- getting out of the saddle for 30 seconds to a minute, from time to time when necessary. Probably the longest sustained climb in this immediate vicinity is about 2 miles, and even that has some undulations in it. So it's not just one steady gradient from bottom to top. It may sound corny, but one of the hardest parts of riding here is dealing with all the short, steep climbs. Most are short - a few hundred meters - up to about a half mile. BUT! most are in that 10 to 12% gradient range. There are even a few that are 'walls' at about 20%. For me, as a non-climber, it really works on my resolve to try and keep a decent average both up and down the back side. Very often, the routine is: climb the steep side and then the dang road kinda levels out on top, so I don't always get the benefit of the 'down side'.

Everybody has to try different stuff to find out what works for them.

Mike in AR:beer:

[wc1934]

Spinning is more cardio than mashing the big ring.

You're leg muscles are probably stronger than your cardio so when you are using less legs and more cardio it feels harder.

That's the premise I've always worked from. However, my quads burned when in the small CR (told them to shut up al la Jens Voigt, but it did not work), but were ok on the day when I was in the large CR. Do you build up more lactic acid when in oxygen debt?

[regularguy412]

That's the premise I've always worked from. However, my quads burned when in the small CR (told them to shut up al la Jens Voigt, but it did not work), but were ok on the day when I was in the large CR. Do you build up more lactic acid when in oxygen debt?

Ermm.. well,,, yes,, If I remember correctly. That's why it's called ANaerobic work. When muscles make work anaerobically, they burn off the phosphate part of the stored energy molecule -- ATP -- Adenosine Tri Phosphate at a high rate. That leaves the energy molecule ADP (Adenosine Di Phosphate),, then AP. Finally, when all of the P (phosphates) in the molecular chain are used,, the muscle has to replenish. It's the burning of the Phosphate (think: matches / phosphorus) whose by-product is Lactic Acid. There was once a theory out there somewhere that espoused the notion that muscles can be 'trained' to actually utilize the Lactic Acid as fuel, but I don't know if it can actually be done. I have never been nor do I claim to be an exercise physiologist. Heck, I didn't even sleep at a Holiday Inn last nite. It's just been a long time since I did any research on this subject.

So I mostly just have my own anecdotal experience with how MY body reacts to the big ring/ small ring (mash vs. spin) theories play out. Slowing down the work CYCLE frequency of the working muscle really helped me with my ability to sustain a given work load. I guess I didn't do so well in picking my parents. My VO2Max is what it is. Spinning helps me more on the flats. I'm not a climber-type.

Mike in AR:beer: