Schwinn Paramount Discussion

[BirkWinn]

I own a 1988-89 Schwinn Paramount 50th Anniversary not with the Gold Forks. It's full Dura Ace and a beautiful bike. My questions is why do folks love Paramounts and what makes them so special. I understand they are handmade by Waterford but who's hands touched the bikes? How skilled were thy? Why are they not as dollar valued as much as other handmade frame builders. Do they stack up to other American frame builders from the 90's and earlier. Love to hear what you folks think.

[witcombusa]

They are production bikes. They are not meant to be judged against custom frame builders end product. In the day they were "nice enough" and a decent value...

[Scooper]

The appreciation and mystique of Paramounts is as much about history as it is about the level of craftsmanship IMHO. In the late thirties Frank Schwinn wanted to create an American made track bike that could compete with the world's best in performance, quality, and price. Many 6-day racers thought he succeeded. Even during the early seventies boom, Schwinn supplemented the factory Paramount production by contracting with very talented framebuilders like Don Mainland in Racine to increase the production volume while maintaining its reputation for high quality. At the time, quality control of lots of production bikes competing with the Paramount really suffered.

Disclaimer: my dad worked for Schwinn for thirty years in the fifties, sixties, and seventies, and in those days Schwinn was like a big extended family.

Waterford has a section on its website devoted to Paramount history for anyone that's interested.

Paramount - The Early Years (http://waterfordbikes.com/w/culture/paramount/paramount-the-early-years/)

The Classic Era - 1958-1979 (http://waterfordbikes.com/w/culture/paramount/classic-era/)

Paramounts in Waterford 1980-1994 (http://waterfordbikes.com/w/culture/paramount/paramounts-in-waterford-1980-1994/)

PDG Series Bikes - 1989-1994 (http://waterfordbikes.com/w/culture/paramount/pdg-series-bikes-1989-94/)

Determining the Date of Manufacture (http://waterfordbikes.com/w/culture/paramount/paramount-dating/)

Here are three Paramounts in my collection. Front to back: 1940 Emil Wastyn built track bike, 1972 chrome P15-9 brazed by Don Mainland, 1987 Waterford built Paramount "Standard".

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/1938%20eBay%20Paramount/ThreeGenerationsofParamounts2md.jpg

This is my custom Waterford RS-22 in 953 stainless impeccably brazed by Dave Wages. Waterford is the spiritual successor to the Schwinn Paramount.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Waterford%20B07014/Waterford953RS-22withlugs_zpsc1d9fd27.jpg

[djg21]

They are production bikes. They are not meant to be judged against custom frame builders end product. In the day they were "nice enough" and a decent value...

The Paramount OS I owned in the early 90s was my first really nice bike and it was not a production bike in any sense. Might you be thinking of the production "Paramounts" ("PDG") that were made in Taiwan and sold by Schwinn for a while in the early 2000s?

The Waterford-built Paramounts were at least as good as any steel frame made by any frame builder that made "custom" or high-end bikes at the time. Of course, there always have been people willing to pay a hefty premium for the privilege of having certain names on a downtube, despite the fact that other bikes of comparable or better quality could be had for less.

[parco]

+1

[Ralph]

I had a 50th Anniversity Paramount, 56 CM red.....not the special with gold fork. Believe it was made by Mark Mueler. Rode it a few years, talked with Frank Schwinn about redoing it......so sent it back to be redone. Came back better than new. It was sold on E bay a few years ago.....Someone out there has a nice frame.

[Ralph]

I had a 50th Anniversity, 56 CM red.....not the special with gold fork. Believe it was made by Marc Mueller. Rode it a few years, talked with Frank Schwinn about redoing it......so sent it back to be redone. Came back better than new. It was sold on E bay a few years ago.....Someone out there has a nice frame. Also earlier....1973...Has a P 15 Triple crank all chromed model. Prettiest bike I ever owned. Then in 74, bought a p13 race model. Nice bike. All Campy Neuvo Record.....49-52 chainrings, sew ups, and 14-24 5 speed freewheel.

[biker72]

This is a 73 Paramount I really regret selling.
I had a Waterford built 91 that was OK but I really liked this 73 better.

http://graphicfxs.com/Paramount/Paramount13.jpg
http://graphicfxs.com/Paramount/Paramount2.jpg

[BobC]

They were the gold standard for US-made racing bikes back in the day.

For me, I went to Nats in Albany riding one wayyyyy back in the day.

[classtimesailer]

Growing up, I had a '74 Raleigh catalogue and a Schwinn catalogue. I ended up buying a U-08 with my paper route money. If I had room in my marriage, I would seek a Raleigh Team and a Chrome Paramount like that one near the top of this thread. The catalogues reeked of quality.

[Steve in SLO]

I had a friend who I worked with in college that commuted on his Paramount track bike from the 50s. It was dropdead gorgeous, although really well used. I have had an appreciation for the Paramounts since, especially after having read about their history in American racing. I've always jonesed for a chrome Paramount, and as a matter fact just found a P13-9 and I'm having it shipped to me now.
:hello::hello:Woo hoo!:hello::hello:

[SPOKE]

I'm a fan of the Paramounts. I've had a couple of the late 1980's OS frames that i really liked but sold them.....wish I had them back in the collection. I still have 3 of the 50th anniversary frames. 2 are built and one is NOS that I picked up last November. All three are the black with gold fork. IMO these frames are as nicely constructed as any semi-production frame that was available during that time. I also think these particular frames have a nicer ride quality than the OS Paramounts that I sold.

[pinkshogun]

my 3 Paramount moments in chronological order:

-found a blue/red speckled PDG Paramount in the trash
-could have bought a sweet 1973 Paramount track frame for fair money and passed
-paid for a 1973 opaque green P15 on Ebay for a song only to receive a SunTour shifter instead. i did get a prompt refund from the seller

[Ken Robb]

[QUOTE=
Disclaimer: my dad worked for Schwinn for thirty years in the fifties, sixties, and seventies, and in those days Schwinn was like a big extended family.

My dad was a driver for Roscoe Laundry in Chicago and Schwinn was one of his customers. Lucky for me because he got the insider deal on a Schwinn Traveler ("English Racer" w/3 spd Sturmey Archer and bottle generator lighting) for my 11th Birthday Gift. I was beyond thrilled. :banana:

[cnighbor1]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/8379107@N03/sets/


Here is Robert Freeman's photos site with lotos of Paramount photos to view
I have two Waterford Paramounts I enjoy riding

[Duende]

I would never consider a Paramount to be a "Production" bicycle. Maybe they are not as exotic or of limited build numbers as some. However except for a small few virtuoso builders out there... one would be very hard pressed to find a frame build (or paint job) of higher quality imo.

Every last detail on my daily driver is stunning. It's a columbus SLX criterium frame with 74 degree HT and 73 ST that I turned into a single speed. Maybe not the most worthy use of this frame, but I enjoy it.

[bluesea]

^ I think the Match Paramount personifies that earlier criterium geometry, combining tasteful aesthetics with its white DT panel and script "Schwinn" font.

[miguel]

i have a 1988 50ann/nongold pmount. it's pink, or "strawberry" which is what i think they put in the catalog. its a great frame, flexy the right way and has great road feel. columbus slx i think. i have it built up with rival and chris king everything. pretty sure it weighs about 21lbs. i can do 100 miles on it no prob. kind of wish i had a nice stem that isnt as flexy as the 3ttt quill i have on there but whatever.

here's a photo
http://24.media.tumblr.com/228d35ab94fe24ca19e71e3f7fec8fbf/tumblr_mqnj8aqIWG1qavji0o1_1280.jpg
right before a 200k

[witcombusa]

The Paramount OS I owned in the early 90s was my first really nice bike and it was not a production bike in any sense. Might you be thinking of the production "Paramounts" ("PDG") that were made in Taiwan and sold by Schwinn for a while in the early 2000s?

The Waterford-built Paramounts were at least as good as any steel frame made by any frame builder that made "custom" or high-end bikes at the time. Of course, there always have been people willing to pay a hefty premium for the privilege of having certain names on a downtube, despite the fact that other bikes of comparable or better quality could be had for less.

No, I mean they were built in batches, with one guy brazing 50 forks, another putting dropouts into chainstays, etc. They were not built to order, tubesets picked, angles adjusted, custom bikes. Many people touched each bike "on the line".

Nothing wrong with that, it is what it is.

[Scooper]

No, I mean they were built in batches, with one guy brazing 50 forks, another putting dropouts into chainstays, etc. They were not built to order, tubesets picked, angles adjusted, custom bikes. Many people touched each bike "on the line".

Nothing wrong with that, it is what it is.

Custom geometry was always an option for a slight upcharge, although the choice of tubing was limited. Early on, all of the framesets were brazed by Emil or Oscar Wastyn. After the war, Ovie Jensen then George Flagle brazed the Paramounts at the Schwinn factory, but production then moved back to the Wastyns' shop. Then, in the late fifties, Frank Greco, Frank Brilando, and Wanda Omelian brought production back into the Chicago factory. In the mid-sixties, Louise Redman joined Wanda as the primary brazers. During the early seventies, some of the frames, especially those to be chrome plated, were farmed out to Don Mainland in Racine. In 1980, production moved from Chicago to Waterford, WI, under the management of Marc Muller. Some very talented builders, including Dave Wages, have worked at Waterford over the years.

[Keith A]

Don't know why, but I've always had a thing for the Paramounts. I have two '89 SLX tubed ones and a last generation Match built Paramount. Only one is built and I don't ride it as much as I should, but it is a nice ride. BTW, I'm pretty sure Dave Wages built this one.

I need to update this picture as I've changed some things since this was taken...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=949&stc=1&d=1084908403

[sparky33]

This 1986 Paramount belongs to a friend. It's a beauty, mint. SLX, Dura Ace, Cinelli. Good stuff.

I took it for a spin. The ride was very good, at its best when cruising along in the big ring. I don't think I would trade my modern steel and modern handlebars, but it's a lovely bike. The highlight for me was the 6 speed Dura Ace, just perfect... easy, crisp and quiet.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/18/mu9adeby.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/18/3e9uqe3u.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/18/9y4eny3y.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/18/y7a9edan.jpg

[Yossarian]

To the OP's original question, I think in the day of the Schwinn Paramount they were one of the few US frames of a high quality made. After Schwinn's demise #? the later non-Schwinn made models, and maybe Waterford's of today, are bought by people who remember "Schwinn Quality" (don't laugh).

I read this in the classifieds section, under a PSA for a PDG Paramount.

When Schwinn came out with the Paramount Design Group (PDG) series of frames, I think they really cheapened the Paramount name. Before that, if you had a Paramount, you knew you really had a special hand built frame with a pedigree that was the equal to most frames around. While the PDG frames were nice frames, they just weren't the same standard as the Waterford or Chicago built Paramounts. I think many people bought them, thinking, wow, I've got a Paramount. Schwinn made a comeback later with the Match made Paramounts, but I believe the damage was done by that time and most people were not then associating the name Paramount with the finest frames in the world.

While I don't disagree, I don't entirely agree with the statement either. I think the PDG line, which were well made, was Schwinn's attempt to compete with a changing market. Companies like Trek and Specialized were taking over the US market they had for so many years. Tapping into that Paramount reputation might have been a good move, but in the end to little to late.

[ElvisMerckx]

i have a 1988 50ann/nongold pmount. it's pink, or "strawberry" which is what i think they put in the catalog.

I've got the same '88 50th frame and the catalogue. In it the paint is called "neon orchid".
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7337/12570697723_bb5e41f74d_c.jpg

[bikingshearer]

I can't speak to Paramounts of the vintage the OP asked about, but I know that for me, coming into the sport as a teenager in the early 70s, the Paramount was the one really good bike you could count on actually seeing in person. I was very lucky - I grew up in an area where cycling was very big in my impressionable youth and I was able to feast my orbs on a fair number of great bikes. But that was never on demand, and usually not for nearly long enough to really drink in how special that bit of Italian or French or British unobtanium was (we were just on the cusp of seeing the first top-drawer Japanese stuff at the time). But I could always walk into the Schwinn shop and ogle a Paramount, pretty much for as long as I wanted. That had an impact, and I suspect the same is true for many of a certain age.

All my bikes are marques I lusted after many, many moons ago and could not afford then. My 1967 Paramount (no, it is not even remotely period-correct equipped) is definitely of that ilk. I rode it just this past weekend and was reminded how well designed and well built it was and remains. But the nostalgia factor is definitely a significant part of my enjoyment of it.

[palincss]

To the OP's original question, I think in the day of the Schwinn Paramount they were one of the few US frames of a high quality made.


In the 60s and 70s they were the only high quality US production bicycle frames, and they were as good as anything being made elsewhere in the world.

[rodcad]

I've got the same '88 50th frame and the catalogue. In it the paint is called "neon orchid".
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7337/12570697723_bb5e41f74d_c.jpg

That is a beautiful bike and my size to boot.

[John H.]

I spent my formative years in South Eastern Wisconsin.
It gave me a great appreciation for Paramounts.
A Paramount was THE pro bike in that area in that era (80's).
Aren't there still a few ex-Paramount builders around that build in that style?
Kent Merrick, Dennis Kilfoy, and maybe a few others?

[Keith A]

Dennis Kilfoy actually lives in my area, but I'm not sure if he's in the bike building business anymore. His website had been down since 2008.

[John H.]

If he did I bet it would look like a Paramount.

[Keith A]

If he did I bet it would look like a Paramount.i've seen his work and you are correct.

[Scuzzer]

I could always walk into the Schwinn shop and ogle a Paramount, pretty much for as long as I wanted.

I grew up in the middle of farm country in Ill and the only high end racing bike I ever saw was the used Paramount hanging in the window of the hole in wall Schwinn shop in the next town over. They didn't even have a new one on display.

I spent plenty of time looking at that bike through the glass and dreaming of how it would ride.

My 1967 Paramount (no, it is not even remotely period-correct equipped) is definitely of that ilk. I rode it just this past weekend and was reminded how well designed and well built it was and remains. But the nostalgia factor is definitely a significant part of my enjoyment of it.

My dad bought that used 73 Paramount for me on my 16th birthday in 1981. I rode it this past Sat for 2.5 hours and it was just as fun as the first time I threw my leg over it. I'm sure nostalgia plays a huge role in how I perceive the ride quality these days but who cares, I had a huge smile on my face at the end of ride.

[bikingshearer]

. . . . I had a huge smile on my face at the end of ride.

And isn't that the point of this cycling thing, at least for those of us who are not looking to make our living at it?

[miguel]

i have a 1988 50ann/nongold pmount. it's pink, or "strawberry" which is what i think they put in the catalog.
I've got the same '88 50th frame and the catalogue. In it the paint is called "neon orchid".

ahem
http://www.trfindley.com/flschwinn_1981_1990/1988_05.html
http://38.media.tumblr.com/9c7fc2f33b04d060f9a4f1695e0322db/tumblr_n7dmyrrQnf1qavji0o1_1280.jpg
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/1024747/revenge-of-the-nerds-joints-o.gif

[jr59]

I spent my formative years in South Eastern Wisconsin.
It gave me a great appreciation for Paramounts.
A Paramount was THE pro bike in that area in that era (80's).
Aren't there still a few ex-Paramount builders around that build in that style?
Kent Merrick, Dennis Kilfoy, and maybe a few others?

Well wouldn't Dave Wages bikes have that same style? How about Jon Sotherland?

http://www.sotherlandbikes.com

[tv_vt]

I grew up in the Chicago area in 50's-60's-70's. Big track scene in that area then with the Kenosha velodrome. Paramounts were the coolest bikes to own. Bike racing was such a cult, totally nothing like today. No way to get news of any international races. I had a coveted Peugot poster of Bernard Thevenet winning the Tour, riding in the Alps.

Not sure what happened, but the 80's Paramounts didn't speak to me at all. Maybe by the time the 50th anniversary frames came out, the Euro brands had made enough inroads to make the Paramounts seem outdated and definitely more 'production' and less 'elite.'

Still think of the Paramounts as the best US bikes in the 70's. Imagine if I actually looked at their geometry now, I'd think the angles were too steep for me. Just guessing, but track racing was in their blood, so I'm thinking steep angles.

[Ralph]

My mid 70's road racing model P13 Paramount 23" (as they called it) was 73/73. Came with 49/52 (42/52 was optional as I recall) NR crankset and 14-24 5 speed freewheel. Don't remember if the more touring oriented P10's and P15's were different angles. Believe not. Think all the road bikes near that size were advertised 73/73.

[cegerer]

... I had a coveted Peugot poster of Bernard Thevenet winning the Tour, riding in the Alps ....

Like this? ;) Photo taken in my basement in the late 70s. My Assenmacher in the foreground, brother's Bob Jackson on the rollers, mystery bike in background.

Photo 2: my 1975 P-13 circa 1978-79. By this time, I had the frame re-painted from silver to red with braze-on water bottle and shifter bosses added and some components upgraded to Super Record and some drillium of course. Sold the frame the following year and used most of the parts to build the Assenmacher.

[palincss]

My mid 70's road racing model P13 Paramount 23" (as they called it) was 73/73. Came with 49/52 (42/52 was optional as I recall) NR crankset and 14-24 5 speed freewheel. Don't remember if the more touring oriented P10's and P15's were different angles. Believe not. Think all the road bikes near that size were advertised 73/73.

My 1972 P15 was also 73/73. 22" frame.

[unterhausen]

Not sure what happened, but the 80's Paramounts didn't speak to me at all. Maybe by the time the 50th anniversary frames came out, the Euro brands had made enough inroads to make the Paramounts seem outdated and definitely more 'production' and less 'elite.'
by the mid to late '70s. Paramounts were dated looking and the Italian bikes were exciting. At that time, they were dirt cheap, less than $1500 in today's dollars. I have looked back and wish I bought the Paramount the local shop couldn't get rid of, it fit me and I think they wanted less than the frame on my bike cost for a full Campagnolo Record bike with silk tubular tires

[palincss]

by the mid to late '70s. Paramounts were dated looking and the Italian bikes were exciting. At that time, they were dirt cheap, less than $1500 in today's dollars. I have looked back and wish I bought the Paramount the local shop couldn't get rid of, it fit me and I think they wanted less than the frame on my bike cost for a full Campagnolo Record bike with silk tubular tires

Possibly the collapse of the Bike Boom by 1975 may have had something to do with their inability to sell the bike.

[Scooper]

My mid 70's road racing model P13 Paramount 23" (as they called it) was 73/73. Came with 49/52 (42/52 was optional as I recall) NR crankset and 14-24 5 speed freewheel. Don't remember if the more touring oriented P10's and P15's were different angles. Believe not. Think all the road bikes near that size were advertised 73/73.

The P13s, P10s, and P15s were all 73/73. The P14 track bikes were 74/74. Bikes with custom geometry could differ.

This is from the 1976 catalog.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Schwinn%20Publ%20Pages/1976ParamountGeometryTables.jpg