OT: who feels worse today?

[gary135r]

Lindsey Jacobellis, or Bode Miller?

[Keith A]

What a bogus lie she told just after the final was over. She said she was trying to grab her board to stabilize herself. Yeah right :no:

She was doing a little showboating and it cost her the gold. I would have had much more respect for her if she would have fessed up, instead of trying to cover it up.

[gary135r]

What a bogus lie she told just after the final was over. She said she was trying to grab her board to stabilize herself. Yeah right :no:

She was doing a little showboating and it cost her the gold. I would have had much more respect for her if she would have fessed up, instead of trying to cover it up.
she did change her story later in a Bob Costas interview, basically admitting what everybody knew. She was showboating.

[David Kirk]

Yes she was showing off..........she screwed up.........she's 20 years old. Cut her a bit of slack.

When I was 20 I could barely make a fist let alone win a silver medal.

Dave

[Keith A]

Yeah Dave, she is still a youngster and she made a rookie mistake. I've got no problem with her trying to show off a little, but either you got to stick it or pay the price. Just don't lie about what you did -- that's lame at any age.

I am glad to her she owned up to it later.

[ti_boi]

Whatever--she is still (young) but a highly compensated person...she has won many events and has mega-endorsements....now she has 'move' named after her and everyone will always laugh about it....Schadenfreud.....

[lnomalley]

i have zero tolerance for this armchair opinion crap. miller knows something you don't.. he knows it doesn't matter. as for the girl... she did great. she's a great KID in a sport that has one thing right about more than anyother sport.. the kids know that it isn't about winning it's about doing and being. the color of the medal really really doesn't matter. she rocked it.

[ergott]

She'll definetly have a story to tell for the rest of her life. A lot more exciting to listen to than if she just won it.

[gary135r]

miller knows something you don't.. he knows it doesn't matter.
If it doesn't matter why does he race? Why does he accept all that money in endorsements? Why is he on the cover of every magazine you pick up now when he can just say no comment. curious.

[ergott]

If it doesn't matter why does he race? Why does he accept all that money in endorsements? Why is he on the cover of every magazine you pick up now when he can just say no comment. curious.

Don't you know? He's way too cool to care about winning.

If you believe that I got a bridge for sale here.

[Sandy]

Don't you know? He's way too cool to care about winning.

If you believe that I got a bridge for sale here.

Wrong place. It belongs in the Classified section. :)


Selling Sandy

[lnomalley]

i'm talking about the winning. it's not just the winning. the winning as meaning is what doesn't matter. the precious medal count doesn't matter. the over focus on winning and gold and all that crap. quick.. who won the downhill two olympics ago? (no googling). who won three olympics ago? where is billy johnson? hear ingemar stenmark mentioned much lately in pop culture? it doesn't really matter.

..
on another note... there is a famous psych study on rewards. they took a bunch of school kids that love to read for pleasure. and they started paying them after each book they completed. you know what happened? the kids read less books and reported less pleasure in reading. things are never the same in meaning from the couch or through the tv scveen. i am not saying that winning isn't preferable or that it isn't fantastic...it's the doing that matters. it's about competing and letting it all hang out and pushing the envelop and all the crap you go through. the results are secondary. why do you think a 120 guys show up every weekend to race cat 3 here... and 100 of them know they aren't strong enough to win? and only one guy can win and still the next week.. another 120 guys line up.

.. don't take my word for it.. read up on miller... he says it out loud. getting a podium in a race used to occupy my thoughts all the time. it drove me. and then i got a few podiums and it felt great.. but it really didn't matter. i still train hard. i still race to win.. but it's in context. it's not that imortant. you know what the kid said that won the half pipe...? he said... the olympics are about family. that was pretty honest.

that's what i mean. i am not trivializing winning.. it's just not the meaning. especially in ski racing (which i came into cycling from).. you have to push so far to the edge that sometimes you cross over. you do one of three things. you nail the edge of the envelope, you cross over, or you fall short. the results are just secondary to that.

how many guys in any race in any sport actually have a realistic shot at winning? how many teams inthe tdf actually have guys on the squad that can win the tdf?

..
end rant. you either get it or you don't. enjoy.

[ergott]

i'm talking about the winning. it's not just the winning. the winning as meaning is what doesn't matter. the precious medal count doesn't matter. the over focus on winning and gold and all that crap. quick.. who won the downhill two olympics ago? (no googling). who won three olympics ago? where is billy johnson? hear ingemar stenmark mentioned much lately in pop culture? it doesn't really matter.

..
on another note... there is a famous psych study on rewards. they took a bunch of school kids that love to read for pleasure. and they started paying them after each book they completed. you know what happened? the kids read less books and reported less pleasure in reading. things are never the same in meaning from the couch or through the tv scveen. i am not saying that winning isn't preferable or that it isn't fantastic...it's the doing that matters. it's about competeting and letting it all hang out and oushing the nevelop and all the crap you go through. the results are secondary. why do you think a 120 guys show up every weekend to race cat 3 here... and 100 of them know they aren't strong enough to win? and only oneguy can win and still the nect week.. another 120 guys line up.

.. don't take my word for it.. read up on miller... he says it out loud. getting a podium in a race used to occupy my thoughts all the time. it drove me. and then i got a few podiums and it felt great.. but it really didn't matter. i still train hard. i still race to win.. but it's in context. it's not that imortant. you know what the kid said that won the half pipe...? he said... the olympics are about family. that was pretty honest.

that's what i mean. i am not trivializing winning.. it's just not the meaning. especially in ski racing (which i came into cycling from).. you have to poush so far to the edge that sometimes you cross over. you do one of three things. you nail the edge of the envelope, you cross over, or you fall short. the results are just secondary to that.


Much better explaination.

[gary135r]

..
end rant. you either get it or you don't. enjoy.
Good points. I just think that when you have a personality like Miller's he leaves himself open to critique because he has voiced his opinion on numerous
topics and people, and I feel he falls into that spoiled athlete cliche where he enjoys the trappings of fame but tells everybody to leave him alone. If you notice other olympic atheletes aren't held to the standard he is and people mostly agree that the olympics are about competition as opposed to winning (the Media being the exception). That being said, He is a local boy and I wish him well. I did not start this poll to kick either participant while they were down, more so as a question about the human drama that is sports in general. Cheers.

[lnomalley]

What a bogus lie she told just after the final was over. She said she was trying to grab her board to stabilize herself. Yeah right :no:

She was doing a little showboating and it cost her the gold. I would have had much more respect for her if she would have fessed up, instead of trying to cover it up.


there was no bogus lying involved. coming to terms with a mistake.. a split second mistake in a race of reactions and instincts... in front of a global audience.. before you've had a chance to make your own personal meaning out of it, and in the absence of a pat on the bike for just being genuine enough to get excited about winning like any 20 year old might...
watching her come to terms with it.. and be not reactive or defensive.. or even angry...

that kid has class. lying isn't even the right word.
it's just a very human foiblie.. a little homer simpson 'doh' that this time cost the race. we all have those moment.. but rarely under so much scritiny and with such gravitas. the kid was and is amazing. lying? not at all... just dealing.

[lnomalley]

Good points. I just think that when you have a personality like Miller's he leaves himself open to critique because he has voiced his opinion on numerous
topics and people, and I feel he falls into that spoiled athlete cliche where he enjoys the trappings of fame but tells everybody to leave him alone. If you notice other olympic atheletes aren't held to the standard he is and people mostly agree that the olympics are about competition as opposed to winning (the Media being the exception). That being said, He is a local boy and I wish him well. I did not start this poll to kick either participant while they were down, more so as a question about the human drama that is sports in general. Cheers.

the world needs more asss*holes (hi jerk).miller's willingness to be one in the public eye is refreshing and real and.. does what its supposed to do.. keeps us entertained with trivial crap to talk about.

[e-RICHIE]

the world needs more asss*holes (hi jerk).miller's willingness to be one in the public eye is refreshing and real and.. does what its supposed to do.. keeps us entertained with trivial crap to talk about.


agreed.
very austen-esque yo.

[Kevan]

before crossing the finish line. Let's not forget that video clip and that young guy who spilled on the slick road about 100 yards short of the finish line and ended up running his bike to the line only to come in second.

It'll happen again.

[lnomalley]

before crossing the finish line. Let's not forget that video clip and that young guy who spilled on the slick road about 100 yards short of the finish line and ended up running his bike to the line only to come in second.

It'll happen again.
my favorite was zabel.. i love that dude and it broke my heart when he double fisted victory saluted and got pipped.

[andy mac]

kids, a little real world 201:

the networks/press are trying to drum up interest/ratings/readership etc so they pick up on the smallest things and try to create a story. and they blow stuff way out of context.

bode etc doesn't chase the press, the press chase him. they need him.

in regards to wrecking in ski racing, it happens every day in every event. it just so happens to suck when it's in the olympics which may only happen once in a skier's career.

the olympics is a crap shoot, as any one ski race is a crap shoot. that's why in the ski world far more respect is given to the annual world cup titles determined over a whole season.

in regards to lindsey, i bet she feels worse about it than those upset with her here...

:beer:

[lnomalley]

kids, a little real world 201:

the networks/press are trying to drum up interest/ratings/readership etc so they pick up on the smallest things and try to create a story. and they blow stuff way out of context.

bode etc doesn't chase the press, the press chase him. they need him.

in regards to wrecking in ski racing, it happens every day in every event. it just so happens to suck when it's in the olympics which may only happen once in a skier's career.

the olympics is a crap shoot, as any one ski race is a crap shoot. that's why in the ski world far more respect is given to the annual world cup titles determined over a whole season.

in regards to lindsey, i bet she feels worse about it than those upset with her here...

:beer:

thank you for articulating what i couldn't. dead on right.

[Sandy]

Agreed (about the dead on right).


Skiing Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

the olympics is a crap shoot, as any one ski race is a crap shoot. that's why in the ski world far more respect is given to the annual world cup titles determined over a whole season.



uh - that's the title bode won?

[Sandy]

Others skied better than Bode. No one snowboarded (is that a word?) better than Lindsey. She lost it. He never won it. Hence, Lindsey feels worse.



Skiing Snowboarding Snowflake Sandy

[andy mac]

uh - that's the title bode won?


absolutely. not quite sure of your point e-miester?



it also strikes me that a real beauty of sport is that it throws up all these things we would never have imagined.

beautifully predictably unpredictable!

[Kirk Pacenti]

Yeah Dave, she is still a youngster and she made a rookie mistake. I've got no problem with her trying to show off a little, but either you got to stick it or pay the price. Just don't lie about what you did -- that's lame at any age.

I am glad to her she owned up to it later.

Keith,

I couldn't agree more! My wife and I thought "how lame" when she gave the line about "stabilizing" her board. Sure she showboated, I would have too in that position. I don't blame her for doing it one bit, frankly I was hoping for a 360*!

But at least have the guts to say you were showboating and it cost you! It seemed to me the interviewer really wanted to push the issue, asking her a second time about the "method air"....I am sure the producers fed her that line!

I know she copped to it later, but I am sure only after she saw the video and her coach chewed her out over it. You could see how ticked he was as soon as it happened. The real shame of it is that she did out race everyone at the top...just to loose it in the last 120 yards....ouch!

[e-RICHIE]

absolutely. not quite sure of your point e-miester?



it also strikes me that a real beauty of sport is that it throws up all these things we would never have imagined.

beautifully predictably unpredictable!


my point is that bode has proven his mettle.
i am agreeing with you in that the world cup
is the blue riband of his sport. heck - he's not
even a downhiller - yet he took major cwap for
losing a medal in that event and getting fifth.
either the media or the fair weather fans are
ignorant or just simple-minded; this guy is
at the top of the sport, he is an individual, and
he quite the pioneer in a american kind of way,
yet it's the americans that line up to poke at him.

[andy mac]

my point is that bode has proven his mettle.
i am agreeing with you in that the world cup
is the blue riband of his sport. heck - he's not
even a downhiller - yet he took major cwap for
losing a medal in that event and getting fifth.
either the media or the fair weather fans are
ignorant or just simple-minded; this guy is
at the top of the sport, he is an individual, and
he quite the pioneer in a american kind of way,
yet it's the americans that line up to poke at him.



then i think we can agree to agree.

:beer:

(i will argue that he is a downhiller though. he has won multiple world cup DH races and the world championships. he is one of the extremely rare and amazing skiers who can win in any discipline.)

[Dr. Doofus]

doof does

his dog kicked his azz this morning

that golden beyotch can wrestle, imho

aycttttb






is there something going on in italy before tirreno? huh?

[Keith A]

Kirk -- I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that saw it that way. Sure she's young, but it appears that she has had a fair amount of competitive experience -- so she isn't some naive little child.

As far as lnomalley's comment about her not lying, then what was all that she said regarding trying to stabilizer herself while in the air by grabbing the board? :no:

What bugged me about it is the fact that in our society it appears to me that no one wants to take responsibility for their actions. Everyone wants to blame someone else or make an excuse for what they did. And here is an Olympic silver medalist doing the same thing.

[gary135r]

it also strikes me that a real beauty of sport is that it throws up all these things we would never have imagined.

beautifully predictably unpredictable!
exactly! I believe that's why we inherently love sports. The randomness of it all. Living that moment (that's why taped sports sucks) and having experienced those same emotions ourselves no matter what the scale of competition might be.

[Ray]

She's gotta feel worse because she had it SOOOOOO freakin' won! It was what it was - it doesn't detract from what a great boarder she is. But I feel bad for her because it was such a spectacular f#uck up on such a grand stage that no matter what else she does in her career, she'll likely always be remembered mostly for that. So, no, it's not that serious or terrible compared to other stuff that happens in the world every day, but she obviously felt bad about it - she was crying for long enough afterward. Too bad she couldn't laugh at herself when it happened, but who among us could have???

As others have said, winning an individual ski race is almost a random event, which is why Bode's world cup wins mean a whole lot more than his Olympic "failures", such as they are. He still rocks - I like his attitude.

-Ray

[e-RICHIE]

<snipped>Too bad she couldn't laugh at herself when it happened, but who among us could have???
is that a rhetorical question?

As others have said, winning an individual ski race is almost a random event, which is why Bode's world cup wins mean a whole lot more than his Olympic "failures", such as they are. He still rocks - I like his attitude.
-Ray
agreed, cuz. zamattafact - unlike other sports stars, whether "real"
or simply created by the press, miller never even said he'd medal
or predicted anything of the sort. the media is cutting down at the
knees a story they might have started in the first place.

hey - thanks for reading.

[Too Tall]

Prediction: The coach's clinic will "tag" a new terminology that will become forgotten as to it's origin in a few yrs.

"If you are sure you have it won for g-d sakes don't doa Lindsay".

Oh good grief.

[shaq-d]

it may not be about winning, but it is about meeting goals and expectations. tdf riders who can't win ride for their teams; teams that can't win ride for sponsorship time on tv, sprinting, jersey colours, etc. everyone has expectations.

and when you're in the lead of the olympics and u have a clear gold, well, then it IS about winning, because you're there to meet your goals. and no way in hell you can tell me that someone who is 2 seconds away from a gold doesn't want the gold. it's totally different, in other words, if you're on the starting grid and u're in it for the experience/love, versus when you're 2 seconds away from gold. the latter point in time/space is a whole different shtick. it's also where people show their true colours and mettle.

anyway, i agree she's feeling way more down on herself than any of us could.

sd

[Needs Help]

First of all, snowboard cross is hardly an Olympic event. It's a made up event that the US must have rammed through the Olympic committee somehow in effort to score more gold medals and gain TV viewership. In my opinion, if there aren't at least 6 countries in the world that have an organized series of competitions for the sport throughout the preceding 10 years, it shouldn't be an Olympic event.

Secondly, the girl lied, and she lied again, and then she stonewalled Bob Costas about her lying. In the interview I saw, she never fessed up to hotdogging off the jump, and Bob Costas was doing his best to try and steer her into saying the right thing during the whole interview, but she would have none of it. First, she said she was having trouble with that jump all week and that's why she fell. Then, she said she didn't know how far back the other competitors were--implying that she had no reason to hotdog it--yet the instant replay showed her looking back up the course, and it appeared she knew she had a big lead. Finally, she said that "maybe" she wasn't concentrating fully when she went off the jump. None of that remotely describes what actually happened.

I think everyone can understand the exuberance that comes with winning an Olympic gold, and to express that while she was boarding was just a touch of irrational exuberance, but lots of athletes in other events have celebrated too early and lost as well. That happens in sports, and it will happen again.

She was clearly dismayed after the finish, and you could tell she knew she blew it and that she was having a hard time coming to grips with it. And, we as spectators can empathize with that horrible feeling and can readily forgive such a foible. But then she told all the lies about what happened--and that is something I can't empathize with. In my opinion, she showed her true character there, so I'm with Keith--I don't think she's an Olympian in any sense of the word.

[David Kirk]

First of all, snowboard cross is hardly an Olympic event. It's a made up event that the US must have rammed through the Olympic committee somehow in effort to score more gold medals and gain TV viewership. In my opinion, if there aren't at least 6 countries in the world that have an organized series of competitions for the sport throughout the preceding 10 years, it shouldn't be an Olympic event.

Secondly, the girl lied, and she lied again, and then she stonewalled Bob Costas about her lying. In the interview I saw, she never fessed up to hotdogging off the jump, and Bob Costas was doing his best to try and steer her into saying the right thing during the whole interview, but she would have none of it. First, she said she was having trouble with that jump all week and that's why she fell. Then, she said she didn't know how far back the other competitors were--implying that she had no reason to hotdog it--yet the instant replay showed her looking back up the course, and it appeared she knew she had a big lead. Finally, she said that "maybe" she wasn't concentrating fully when she went off the jump. None of that remotely describes what actually happened.

I think everyone can understand the exuberance that comes with winning an Olympic gold, and to express that while she was boarding was just a touch of irrational exuberance, but lots of athletes in other events have celebrated too early and lost as well. That happens in sports, and it will happen again.

She was clearly dismayed after the finish, and you could tell she knew she blew it and that she was having a hard time coming to grips with it. And, we as spectators can empathize with that horrible feeling and can readily forgive such a foible. But then she told all the lies about what happened--and that is something I can't empathize with. In my opinion, she showed her true character there, so I'm with Keith--I don't think she's an Olympian in any sense of the word.

Tough room.

Dave

[e-RICHIE]

who feel worse today?
[ ] Lindsey Jacobellis
[ ] Bode Miller
[ ] Duck Cheney

[Keith A]

This is the image that Lindsay was hoping everyone would remember from her Olympic event -- which is a sweet move on her way to what should have been a gold medal...

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/2006/02/17/gallery.boardwipe/1_014831574.jpg

Unfortunately, it is this that will be remembered...

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/2006/02/17/gallery.boardwipe/6_014831580.jpg

[e-RICHIE]

that first pic is telling for other reasons...
that's a palmer board. there was a nice
piece on shaun palmer last night. despite
having the background that he has, i came
away from the interview actually liking and
rooting for the guy.

[David Kirk]

that first pic is telling for other reasons...
that's a palmer board. there was a nice
piece on shaun palmer last night. despite
having the background that he has, i came
away from the interview actually liking and
rooting for the guy.

Palmer might be one of the best all around natural athletes of our time. I had a chance to do some skateboarding with him way back in the day and his power and finesse was a sight to behold. I hope he can stay clean.

Lindsey rocks.

Dave

[Keith A]

I'm sure her board sponsor was not sad at all about her method grab -- this will certainly give him plenty of exposure, probably more so than if she would have landed it.

Hey maybe that’s it. This was all a marketing ploy to gain more media attention than what would have occurred if she would have simply finished the race and won the gold. Somehow, I knew it was all Climb’s fault :D

[Keith A]

BTW, did anyone see Bode in the Super-G this weekend? He hit one of the gates and went off course and almost ate it, but managed to stay upright on just one ski...impressive.

[Tom]

What blows me away is when they slow things down and you see the skis bending and vibrating like they're made of jelly. You ever seen those skis in real life? They're as stiff as a 2 by 8! The forces they're undergoing are just amazing.

[andy mac]

Tough room.

Dave


totally agree. armchair critics always are...

[93legendti]

...Secondly, the girl lied, and she lied again, and then she stonewalled Bob Costas about her lying. In the interview I saw, she never fessed up to hotdogging off the jump, and Bob Costas was doing his best to try and steer her into saying the right thing during the whole interview, but she would have none of it. First, she said she was having trouble with that jump all week and that's why she fell. Then, she said she didn't know how far back the other competitors were--implying that she had no reason to hotdog it--yet the instant replay showed her looking back up the course, and it appeared she knew she had a big lead. Finally, she said that "maybe" she wasn't concentrating fully when she went off the jump. None of that remotely describes what actually happened.

...But then she told all the lies about what happened--and that is something I can't empathize with. In my opinion, she showed her true character there, so I'm with Keith--I don't think she's an Olympian in any sense of the word.

I think we need a Congressional investigation.

[lnomalley]

here's a funny and reality based concept. actually two concepts for the price of one:an olympian is someone that goes to the olympics. someone that doesn't go to the olympics is not an olympian (in this case it is actually black and white by definition). one's personal feelings about morality don't factor into it.

splitting is the act of experiencing the world in two categories... all good or all bad. it's an infantile defense mechanism and is very common and i am not going to try and take it on here. but when someone says something like.. you are either for us or against us.. or they presume a discreet good and evil.. they are splitting reality. reality tends to be very complex. splitting is often times a poor representation of what happens because it involves distorting the complexities involved in the gestalt (the whole reality). distortions are typically well distorted and by nature unreal.


i hardly think watching this kid try to define and make some sort of meaning out of a personal unconscious flick of the board (a method air) and the resulting crash (doh) and have to publicly defend it (that's the part i find offensive)... by working through the what i am sure is overwhelming reality of it all (including the silver medal which is an amazing and ultimately a personal accomplishment) to be called a liar seems a bit.. um.... silly at best.

watching someone rationalize an experience before they are able to understand it or integrate it into their psyche has nothing to do with lying. it's a different psychological process entirely. i find it a little disturbing to see it comprehended on this level. these kinds of mistakes are made every day in sport... this one is magnified and distorted by a media that is trying to deal with a really boring olympics that is being out watched by american idol 2 to one.

go out and do any bike race and listen to every dude in every category talk about their race after the race. no one deals much in reality because they are still integrating the reality into a personal psychological narrative. this weekend alone i heard a teammate talk about how he was 5th wheel coming into the sprint when in fact he was behind me. was he lying? no.... reality and the truth are slaves to the ego and adrenaline and pride and all sorts of good stuff. he felt like he was 5th wheel and that's good enough for me. (i pulled a muscle and sat up and still rolled in 15th.. which is really sucky result wise for me.. and now i'm injured to boot).

do i believe that she thought she was going to reach down and stablize her board as she did every other time? yes! did she do a method because she was celebrating the obvious win? yes. was this a reflective decision making process or fairly subconscious? i am going to argue it happend in a millisecond and came from the adrenaline and intensity of the circumstances. is she paying the consequences? yes. absolutely. the finish line is what judges you.
i just find it disturbing that it's even being talked about this way. we use sport to work out ourselves.. to define who we are. those atheletes out there represent our ideals, fantasies, and part so of our egos and wishes... but all of these attributes are imagined and ultimately not real (go out and race.. get good at it.. and you see that it has nothing to do with anything but you) . what is real is that a girl crashed because she lacked wisdom and experience. she still did great.. i cherish every second place i've ever won. 20 years old is still young for developing wisdom.
one is losing touch with reality when they confuse what they are working out on the back of any athlete. this girl's story is imporant. there is a morality tale there. it is an object lesson in talent and patience. the olympians all represent archetypes almost by definition..w e certainly package them as gods. and this girl's story.. on the existential level... is an important one... and it's all 100% human... don't count your eggs before they hatch. she isnt the first one to work this out.. we all have in our lives. she just did it larger than life.
but in reality.. none of this has anything to do with you or me or anyone but her.

end rant.