Preserve or restore?

[shamsixnine]

Curious as to what the forumites think/feel about restoring vintage "collectible frames. There is a trend now with cars not to restore but to preserve vintage automobiles. After all, it can only truly be original once.
I saw some restoration work on an old cinelli frame, and the restored frame came out probably nicer than when it left the Cinelli shop forty or so years ago. But I came away with thinking that the original was nice the way it was. Granted your frame, do what you want, but may be a pause is in order, and think about what is being taken away.

[thirdgenbird]

Frames?
I'm cool with both. I would lean to preserve, but it all depends on the application and history.

My Tommasini was bought new by my dad. I will keep it around as long as I can, and it would need to get very rough before I restored it. It wears patina well and serves as my "Sunday bike" with a period looking build.

My Colnago has modified cable stops and Joe Bell paint from a previous owner. The paint durability and quality is far beyond the original standards but it doesn't bother me at all. I actually prefer it here. This is my normal bike that sometimes sees unfavorable conditions with a modern build.

Components?
I like the look of fresh parts even if it is on a well worn frame. This can come through replacement, refinishing the original parts, or updating to non period spec parts. (I love modern drivetrains on 80s/90s steel)

[bikingshearer]

I'm a member of the "it's your bike, make it so you will like it" camp. Just don't hack off derailleur hangers or cable stops (the latter is occasionally okay if they are really rusted) or doing anything else structurally that can't be undone. That probably includes powder coating, but I'm not sure.

I love seeing old stuff that has been well preserved and kept in original, or at least period-correct, livery and parts. For folks who like doing that, I say "hooray." I'm happy to ogle.

For bikes I own, I ride them except for one wall hanger I have for sentimental reasons. Since I am a 56 year old Clydesdale who lives where significant hills feature in almost every ride, the gearing that a "period correct" set-up mandates just will not get it done for me. So although my frames (all steel) date between 1967 and 1986, they have all been spread to 130mm in the rear and I run more modern gear on them (Shimano 9-speed on one, Campy 10-speed on everything else) so I can ride them where I live. Mr. Triple is my friend, and I loves me my 30x29 or 26x26 low gears. Some I have had repainted (always wet paint, always by Ed Litton), some not, depending on a sliding scale of how beat up the finish is and how much I like/hate the color. I have yet to face the dilemma of a vintage frame with a pristine paint job in a color I detest, so I am not sure what I would do there.

[tiretrax]

If you own it free and clear, do what you want with it. I'd prefer to see an old road frame ridden as a fixie with crazy color accessories than to have it rust under a porch.

I like the resto-mod approach, and I might do one someday with modern road componentry.

[parris]

I think a big factor is just what defines collectible? My 84 Club Special is a very nice bike but I wouldn't put it in the collectible category.

[texbike]

A person should do what they want with their bike. However, I would hope that a person would recognize a bike that has some historical context and work to preserve it for that reason versus an outright, total restoration.

I personally lean toward the preserve versus restore camp. After getting a few quotes last fall to refinish a De Rosa (including the chrome), I realized that it is also MUCH cheaper to just preserve a bike. :eek:

Texbike

[zmudshark]

Considering a repaint, without the chrome lugs, of my Cinelli SC, bought new by me in 1984.

[sean]

I think there are valid arguments for and against. Personally, I do like a little wear and tear on an older frame. Shows it has a bit of a story. But I can say that I have a couple frames that I would love to have perfectly restored.

However, I'm totally with you about some restored frames looking better than the original. To me, the handmade flaws are my favorite part. It shows that someone touched it and it wasn't made by a machine.

It's something I see in digital repro decals a lot. Lines are too sharp, registration is perfect, no bleed through on colors. All the great stuff that added to the charm of the original.

[shamsixnine]

I just want to be clear, I originally posted, it's your frame do what you want-not judging here. What I am saying, is that it's worth noting that it might make sense in some cases to really give some thought about getting rid of the original paint, scraping off original decals and such. Bikes are made to be ridden, not wall art but some frames that might have some significant historic value, may be better off left alone. Not so much as a collectible, but historic record.

[Scuzzer]

If you own it free and clear, do what you want with it.

I agree 100% but sometimes what you want to do with it is only temporary. I got a used '73 Paramount for my 16th birthday (1981) and proceeded to ride the heck out of it including loaded touring across Europe on it in '82 and '87. The paint was beat and after the 1987 trip dad decided for my birthday I'd get a repaint. I jumped at the chance and had one of the coolest looking bikes on campus the next spring.

Anyone remember what was cool in '88? Once I graduated from college and had the funds to do most anything I wanted to a bike all I wanted for my old Paramount was to look like it should. I ended up sending it to Waterford for an original repaint. Had I been a bit more patient I might have valued the scrapes the dings I put in the paint over the years.

[professerr]

***

[jvp]

Peter Weigle gave a presentation at the cirque de cyclisme in Leesburg VA a few weeks ago on this subject. First he displayed a 1950s? french bike he found and cleaned up, in rough/fair condition. He explained how he felt he needed to leave it as-is for the most part. Then he presented a 70s raleigh that he repainted, re-decaled, modified, etc. It looked very cool and he explained how he didn't feel torn about the project since so many similar raleighs like it were made. If you search his flickr pages you can see both bikes I'm sure.

[pbarry]

I think there are valid arguments for and against. Personally, I do like a little wear and tear on an older frame. Shows it has a bit of a story. But I can say that I have a couple frames that I would love to have perfectly restored.

However, I'm totally with you about some restored frames looking better than the original. To me, the handmade flaws are my favorite part. It shows that someone touched it and it wasn't made by a machine.

It's something I see in digital repro decals a lot. Lines are too sharp, registration is perfect, no bleed through on colors. All the great stuff that added to the charm of the original.

Well said. I've avoided buying a few beautiful repainted frames here, that, in original condition, would have been an easy sale to me. And, they've lingered in the classifieds. A repaint on a vintage frame makes me wonder if it was absolutely thrashed, and was unsalable as-is, or if the owner is slightly OCD, and a few nicks were too much. Before and after images are always good.

My short list of frames that suffer a decrease in value because of restoration: Vintage Cinelli, (pre-Colombo), vintage DeRosa, original Rene Herse, Mario Confente. There are certainly others.

[paredown]

My tastes are catholic on this and many other things--

I don't like seeing repaints done badly--too thick, too glossy, too much clear--on old frames where you want to see the lug shorelines.

I think that if you have a rare bike (say a Confente, a first CA Masi, a 60s Cinelli (especially if it is dusty rose) or even one of the few early frames by Merckx or Tom Ritchey)--you should probably not repaint, but clean, polish, wax and preserve instead.

If there are a lot of examples of the frame, and it is beat--repaint or powder coat, hang modern parts on it and ride the heck out of it.

If you have a frame with some damage, repaint and repair--it gets a new lease on life.

[DCilliams]

If I was going to do a total repaint, where can I get ahold of vintage decals? I see a few on ebay every now and then.

[Tim Porter]

I was faced with some choices when I signed up to do L'Eroica the year before last. I had my Richard Sachs that I got in 1983 that was eligible for the ride (25+ years old, steel, DT shifters, etc.).

BUT, I needed a functional bike that could safely handle about 100 miles of mostly gravel roads with long climbs. The frame had been repainted by Joe Bell 7-8 years before, so I was good to go in that regard. My old Campy drivetrain still sort of worked but the lowest gear available was a 42-21 and the old Campy shifters were notoriously slippery and wouldn't stay in gear.

Now, all this can be made to work (and I have since reinstalled the old drivetrain for the less crazy conditions I usually ride in), but I went ahead and installed a VeloOrange crank with 34/48 rings, a 28-14 freewheel, NOS Campy SR pedals, clips and straps, VO ratcheting shifters (NOT indexed, that's against the rules), and horror of horrors, a Shimano long cage RD. I also found a repro Cinelli 64 bar and new Cinelli stem for belt and suspenders/safety's sake. I put on a set of modern Campy Chorus brakes in aluminum. Then I put on my repro Turbo saddle and some repro brake lever hoods and I was fine. Schwalbe Ultremo ZX tires in 28mm on old GP4s on my original Campy hubs worked great

The Frankenbike rode and functioned beautifully. It was the only Sachs there, I'm pretty sure. I wasn't eligible to register my bike in the L'Eroica registry, but that was not something I cared about. I would do the same again in a heartbeat.

So I come down on the side of making the bike a rideable piece of machinery set up for the conditions you'll face.

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a583/porterphoto1/file_zpsf8db272c.jpg

[martl]

I like mine preserved. Every paint chip tells a story.

http://fstatic1.rennrad-news.de/f/ow/m8/owm8vy38bvrk/medium_7797155102_81d33f3eb2_o.jpg?0 (http://fotos.rennrad-news.de/p/308346)

http://fstatic1.rennrad-news.de/f/5y/6q/5y6qgp70awe2/original_CinelliModB-007.jpg?0 (http://fotos.rennrad-news.de/p/308351)

http://fstatic1.rennrad-news.de/img/photos/2/0/9/0/_/large/Kessels_009.jpg?0 (http://fotos.rennrad-news.de/p/217811)

http://fstatic1.rennrad-news.de/img/photos/2/0/9/0/_/large/Automoto-2490.jpg?0 (http://fotos.rennrad-news.de/p/65118)

[thirdgenbird]

I was faced with some choices when I signed up to do L'Eroica the year before last. I had my Richard Sachs that I got in 1983 that was eligible for the ride (25+ years old, steel, DT shifters, etc.).

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a583/porterphoto1/file_zpsf8db272c.jpg


Swap the RD out for a silver veloce mid cage and that bike is near perfection.

[Tim Porter]

thirdgenbird: Thanks for the recommendation--do you mean a current Veloce model? Will look into it.

When I see bikes like martl's, I get the purity of leaving them original, but in my case I had to ride this thing at 40+ mph down unfamiliar long descents and up crazy gravel roads so I was bit conservative.

[redir]

I like to keep mine preserved but if it's really rusty then it's not gonna look good and will be even harder to preserve. Sometimes they just need a repaint.

There's probably some knowledgeable vintage people here but I know for a fact there are many over on the classic vintage forum at bikeforums.net. I've gotten a lot of help over there including remakes of vintage decals. I can't remember then name of the company now though.

[thirdgenbird]

thirdgenbird: Thanks for the recommendation--do you mean a current Veloce model? Will look into it.

When I see bikes like martl's, I get the purity of leaving them original, but in my case I had to ride this thing at 40+ mph down unfamiliar long descents and up crazy gravel roads so I was bit conservative.

Yep. The one from 3-4 years ago might look a little nicer due to the smaller outer plate, but it may not be worth hunting for. Here is the current one.

http://www.bike24.com/i/p/8/5/19658_00_d.jpg

[Tim Porter]

Thanks thirdgenbird. Will look into it--I wonder if it'll accommodate the wider chain width from BITD . . . .

[texbike]

There's probably some knowledgeable vintage people here but I know for a fact there are many over on the classic vintage forum at bikeforums.net. I've gotten a lot of help over there including remakes of vintage decals. I can't remember then name of the company now though.

Classic Rendezvous has a list of preservation/restoration sources including a section for decals -

www.classicrendezvous.com/Resources.htm .

CR itself is a great resource, but be careful - they can be a bit curmudgeony and "get off my lawn!".

Texbike

[thirdgenbird]

Thanks thirdgenbird. Will look into it--I wonder if it'll accommodate the wider chain width from BITD . . . .

Good question. At the very least, it should probably accommodate a 9spd chain which should be a good match for your chainrings. Not sure how it would work with your freewheel. 9spd chains on 8spd work great.

[redir]

Classic Rendezvous has a list of preservation/restoration sources including a section for decals -

www.classicrendezvous.com/Resources.htm .

CR itself is a great resource, but be careful - they can be a bit curmudgeony and "get off my lawn!".

Texbike

Hahah yeah true, that's a good one too.

[Columbus SLX]

I vastly prefer preservation to restoration, unless the frame is too far gone to want to ride. I have an '89 de rosa that looked terrible when I got it, so I did a restoration (before & after images here (https://plus.google.com/photos/107298173103845317566/albums/5656477357920769969)). When the damage does not include rust, I would simply wax it (use a colored wax to match the paint, so you don't get white crusties everywhere in the paint chips).

I had a similar question with a 1960s Cinelli Mod. B in rough shape from being stored in a leaky shed, and chose to just do a grease service and heavy cleaning & waxing on it. It was too cool to repaint.

It's a moving target, and each person has to ask and answer it by himself.

On the question of decals, I've used Cyclomondo/Greg Softley (the Australia guy) and IMO his artwork is NOT good. He uses stock fonts and tweaks them to sort of look close, but De Rosa and Colnago are two examples that look very wrong. I spot fake & poorly repainted De Rosas on ebay all the time because I can see his decals on 'em.

JR at Velocals (http://www.velocals.com/servlet/StoreFront) was willing to make fresh decals from my Illustrator files, which came out great. Well, they are not as opaque as I'd like, but that's only an issue with white lettering on a dark paint color.

[Jack Crank]

Wish I could say that I was always in the preserve over restore camp but I ride the mad hell out of my bikes and they just deteriorate over time. Unfortunately, those stunning old paintjobs just don't hold up over time they way you wish they would. I have a '72 Jack Taylor that I had to take off the road for fear of slaughtering it wholesale until I can afford a straightening, a proper 3 color repaint and some decals.

Damn you Jack Taylor for having such lovely paint...
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3563/3585301359_7eeb95a3f1_b.jpg

[martl]

I had a similar question with a 1960s Cinelli Mod. B in rough shape from being stored in a leaky shed, and chose to just do a grease service and heavy cleaning & waxing on it. It was too cool to repaint.

[x] post PICS!!!!

(mine is a '61 :D)

[Jack Crank]

[x] post PICS!!!!

(mine is a '61 :D)

F'in f'real man.

[paredown]

F'in f'real man.

Everybody has a bike that they regret not keeping, and mine was the Cinelli B I started racing on (prolly 60s) --actually my brother's but he was cool with me racing on it.

I got excited by new stuff--and found a great deal on a Falcon San Remo team replica (all Campy) and could not afford to buy the 'B' when my brother dumped it.

That and my Frejus track bike--I would love to have them both still in my possession....

[Jack Crank]

Everybody has a bike that they regret not keeping, and mine was the Cinelli B I started racing on (prolly 60s) --actually my brother's but he was cool with me racing on it.

I got excited by new stuff--and found a great deal on a Falcon San Remo team replica (all Campy) and could not afford to buy the 'B' when my brother dumped it.

That and my Frejus track bike--I would love to have them both still in my possession....

A frejus track is on my one-a-these-days list for sure. NY history right there.

[cbresciani]

I have bikes that have been restored and original. I have a mid 70's Pogliaghi track bike that wears its patina well that I rode in the late 70's. And I have a mid 80's Pogliaghi road bike that was repainted by Ed Litton that looks incredible! I guess since I have a history with the track bike and I know where the patina comes from I wouldn't change that. But a bike that I don't have that history with... I wouldn't have a problem repainting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Columbus SLX]

[x] post PICS!!!!

(mine is a '61 :D)

Not mine, a client's, but if it were a 53 I woulda bought it!

It was years ago and I can't remember why we didn't have rubber on it for this photo shoot, but there was a reason - a shame because it looks kinda funny.

It was entirely encased in a layer of rust when he wheeled it into the shop.

[martl]

tréz cool! Though the chromed seatlug makes me wonder if it isn't an SC frame with a B fork?! But the seat tube decal says Mod. B i guess?