Wheels, bikes parts, ethics, etc.

[Mud]

Personally I have no problem with Cees, Carbon Sports, wheelbuilders, framebuilders coming on the forum and being forced to defend what they say about their product. There are enough riders using the product to put their feet to the fire about claims.

Forums are information. Aside from the fact that my wife and I ride Serotta I gain more understanding about riding, training, components, diet, etc etc by being part of the forum and ocassionally making a miniscule contribution.

Any discussion about wheels is a winner with me. For example, Ada wheels, Lightweights and some others cost much more than say Eric's Zip/Hugi at 1130grams. If his wheels were built with Tune hubs they would cost more but still be much less than others and weigh the same.

So we can talk about cost/value all day but there must be a difference, I just don't know what it is.

A few days ago Cees got roasted about dimples. Maybe his approach was wrong, but are dimples better??? I will never go fast enough to find out but I am curious.

I would like to know why a pro rider would choose one component over another if he has to pay retail for it. Questions, questions! With a forum full of people who pride themselves on being knowledgable, why cut off possible debate.

Bruce aka Mud the Roadie

[saab2000]

It can be a fine line between defending your ideas and promoting your product. I think the thing to remember here is the name in the upper left corner of the screen. This forum is sponsored by Serotta and we are all guests here. There has been amazing tolerance for other bike people here, even direct competitors.

The way to keep it that way is for everyone to remain civil and to remember that this forum is not a democracy with free speech. The rules are spelled out by the very benevolant dictator. I have no problem with the rules.

Everyone who builds and/or manufactures bike stuff who hangs out here has a website or an e-mail. If we need to know more about it we can contact that person directly, but to abuse the rules of the forum, and the inevitable breakdown of civility, is what will lead to the shutdown of the forum, as happened once before.

In order to keep the forum, we have to follow the rules. Simple as that. Most who were here before and remember when it was shut down remember how badly that sucked. This is the best forum and we need to keep it going.

[ada@prorider.or]

Personally I have no problem with Cees, Carbon Sports, wheelbuilders, framebuilders coming on the forum and being forced to defend what they say about their product. There are enough riders using the product to put their feet to the fire about claims.

Forums are information. Aside from the fact that my wife and I ride Serotta I gain more understanding about riding, training, components, diet, etc etc by being part of the forum and ocassionally making a miniscule contribution.

Any discussion about wheels is a winner with me. For example, Ada wheels, Lightweights and some others cost much more than say Eric's Zip/Hugi at 1130grams. If his wheels were built with Tune hubs they would cost more but still be much less than others and weigh the same.

So we can talk about cost/value all day but there must be a difference, I just don't know what it is.

A few days ago Cees got roasted about dimples. Maybe his approach was wrong, but are dimples better??? I will never go fast enough to find out but I am curious.

I would like to know why a pro rider would choose one component over another if he has to pay retail for it. Questions, questions! With a forum full of people who pride themselves on being knowledgable, why cut off possible debate.

Bruce aka Mud the Roadie
of course i want to discus constuctions and many cycling related topics but please let we put bussiness related discussion out of forum

any thing other i am happy to discus
cees

[zeroking17]

Personally
Any discussion about wheels is a winner with me. For example, Ada wheels, Lightweights and some others cost much more than say Eric's Zip/Hugi at 1130grams. If his wheels were built with Tune hubs they would cost more but still be much less than others and weigh the same.

So we can talk about cost/value all day but there must be a difference, I just don't know what it is.



For pro riders, it's the combination of lightness and stiffness of carbon wheels that makes the difference.

[Mud]

People can be civil and still discuss. Insofar as Serotta is concerned I think they stack up pretty well with what is out there and have taken some hits delivered here and not gotten crazy over it. If they get thin skinned over criticism of the ST (which I love) then I am sure there will be far more defenders than attackers. (An earlier post).

Knowledge is power. I cannot afford to try every wheels set and despite good intentions and the offer by an earlier post, I don't think there is a real desire on the part of Ada or anyone else to pass around 50 sets for us to test.

I bought my wife a wheelset based on what people said on this forum but I always need to know more. We can be civil and still learn.

[ada@prorider.or]

I bought my wife a wheelset based on what people said on this forum but I always need to know more. We can be civil and still learn.

well simply wheel test sould performed by dealers and distrubutor in the country people are in

[Sandy]

I can understand an individual wanting to point out some discrepancies in what has been said about his or her product. To correct statements, that simply are not true, makes sense. But one must not cross the line by attempting to use the Serotta Forum in a direct manner to try to sell his or her products.

Tom Kellogg, Dave Kirk, Sacha White, Richard Sachs,...., are excellent examples of how it should be done. They add greatly to the content of the forum, but never even come close to crossing the line. They are most professional in how they post.



Sandy

[zeroking17]

I can understand an individual wanting to point out some discrepancies in what has been said about his or her product. To correct statements, that simply are not true, makes sense. But one must not cross the line by attempting to use the Serotta Forum in a direct manner to try to sell his or her products.

Tom Kellogg, Dave Kirk, Sacha White, Richard Sachs,...., are excellent examples of how it should be done. They add greatly to the content of the forum, but never even come close to crossing the line. They are most professional in how they post.



Sandy


Sandy, in my eyes you're the Cesar Millan of the Serotta forum. :)

[zank]

Tom Kellogg, Dave Kirk, Sacha White, Richard Sachs,...., are excellent examples of how it should be done. They add greatly to the content of the forum, but never even come close to crossing the line. They are most professional in how they post.


Oh man! Sandy, I hope I never crossed the line in the past! I hope someone would have told me if I did...

Doh! Oh wait. My wife just told me that you probalbly meant I don't have anything good to offer. That I can believe. I'll go back to my corner now.

[ergott]

Oh man! Sandy, I hope I never crossed the line in the past! I hope someone would have told me if I did...

Doh! Oh wait. My wife just told me that you probalbly meant I don't have anything good to offer. That I can believe. I'll go back to my corner now.


No way Zank. Sandy just overlooked you. Keep on posting!!

[dirtdigger88]

http://www.rtkconsulting.com/Images/Photos/Commentary/My-line-in-the-sand.jpg

go ahead- cross it -

I dare ya

Jason

[ergott]

[IMG]
go ahead- cross it -

I dare ya

Jason

Oh yeah?

[zank]

You guys are way too nice.

My wife actually did make fun of me though. And she said it was well-deserved. Ouch!

No way Zank. Sandy just overlooked you. Keep on posting!!

[dirtdigger88]

Oh yeah?


dude-

you sunk my battle ship!!!

zank which is worse to not be mentioned or to be mentioned for doing bad things


Jason

[Sandy]

I actually sunk your battleship, but you didn't see me. :)

Submarine Sandy

[spiderlake]

Call me crazy but I don't see where Cees crossed a line when asking his question a few days ago. That question led to some great observations from Chief and Fly that took a few minutes to soak in but I actually felt like I learned something. Their responses, IMHO, were far better than those comments along the lines of search google or test it out at the local wind tunnel.

I'll never be able to afford a pair of high end wheels, doubtful I will ever ride a frame the likes of Sachs, Kirk, White, Zank, et al or even buy a pair of wheels from Ergott. Does that mean I can't learn anything from them? Of course not! Case in point, Cees helped my wife and I locate a PRIME location in Courchevel to watch stage 10 of the TDF. His directions were perfect and had we not listened to him, we would have setup further down the mountain and missed all the action in the tight sections near the finish. I find something of value in most posts but there are a few comments that just seem inane (perhaps mine included) and without merit.

I guess I don't understand the problem with being able to interact with people intimately involved in the bike profession. Frame builders, wheel builders, mechanics, owners, messengers, current pros, former pros, wannabees (me), visonaries, luddites and revolutionaries. What a great cross-section of the sport we have here on the Serotta forum.

[zank]

zank which is worse to not be mentioned or to be mentioned for doing bad things


Jason

I think I would rather keep a low profile.

[slowgoing]

IMHO, people are crossing the line all over the place on the forum. Some try to justify it in one way or another, but there really is no justification. They are using the forum as a marketing tool, plain and simple. My response is to steer as far away from them as possible and to give my business to the forum participants who show the most marketing restraint. Two good examples of that are Tom Kellogg and Cees - active, informative and engaging participants, but nary a word about their products.

[Ginger]

Zank, I think you're cool...you answer questions about your stuff and thank people for allocades, but you're not here pushing it...
Cees posts very interesting questions that make people think further than the end of their front wheel and I always learn from the answers. The others mentioned along with the Jerk, Kirk P, and DWG abide by the forum rules as well...

Some others don't.

My question is how many people have read the rules lately? (Located in the handy dandy sticky post at the top of each forum.)

There is a fine line between answering questions and marketing goods. I'm glad I don't have to walk line that here!

[Tom Byrnes]

What Spiderlake said.


I guess I don't understand the problem with being able to interact with people intimately involved in the bike profession. Frame builders, wheel builders, mechanics, owners, messengers, current pros, former pros, wannabees (me), visonaries, luddites and revolutionaries. What a great cross-section of the sport we have here on the Serotta forum.



We will not all agree on exactly where "The Line" is. I believe that Ben Serotta and his colleagues will politely, but firmly, let any person who they believe has "crossed the line" to stop. Bless Ben and his crew for their tolerance and openmindedness.

I am in favor of open, unrestricted discussions of all cycling topics and things. We all benefit and learn from the comments and contributions made by people who could be perceived as competitors of Serotta. ATMO, "the competitiors" who do post on the Forum regularly have exhibited good taste and do not commercialized their posts.

Tom

[zeroking17]

I guess I don't understand the problem with being able to interact with people intimately involved in the bike profession. Frame builders, wheel builders, mechanics, owners, messengers, current pros, former pros, wannabees (me), visonaries, luddites and revolutionaries. What a great cross-section of the sport we have here on the Serotta forum.


I agree. At the same time, conspicuous by their absence are contributions by the Serotta folks themselves. I'd be interested to read more posts from the designers and builders in Saratoga Springs. When Serotta speaks, people listen.

The most interesting forums focus on ideas, not individual personalities. The best hosts lead by example.

[Kevin]

I can understand an individual wanting to point out some discrepancies in what has been said about his or her product. To correct statements, that simply are not true, makes sense. But one must not cross the line by attempting to use the Serotta Forum in a direct manner to try to sell his or her products.

Tom Kellogg, Dave Kirk, Sacha White, Richard Sachs,...., are excellent examples of how it should be done. They add greatly to the content of the forum, but never even come close to crossing the line. They are most professional in how they post.



Sandy

Sandy,

As usual you are 100% correct. There is a fine line between participation in the forum and self-promotion. I agree that Tom Kellogg, Dave Kirk, Sacha White, Cees and Richard Sachs are all fine examples of individuals who do not cross the line into self-promotion.

Kevin

[Dr. Doofus]

the dozen or so people who really know what they are talking about on this forum are mostly dudes who make some fine sheeyat

they have no need to self-promote. they've already proved what they need to prove

if you think the craftsmen on this forum self-promote, you're an idiot

some guys who have bike shops say good things about what they carry. they also don't carry crap.

deal, bros, deal.

doof self promotes. with every inflammatory post, he builds up the name -- whether you love it or hate it --before flooding the market with some lifelike action figures. doof is gonna get stinking rich off those babies.

[ergott]

the dozen or so people who really know what they are talking about on this forum are mostly dudes who make some fine sheeyat

they have no need to self-promote. they've already proved what they need to prove

if you think the craftsmen on this forum self-promote, you're an idiot

some guys who have bike shops say good things about what they carry. they also don't carry crap.

deal, bros, deal.

doof self promotes. with every inflammatory post, he builds up the name -- whether you love it or hate it --before flooding the market with some lifelike action figures. doof is gonna get stinking rich off those babies.

Anatomically correct doll right?

[Dr. Doofus]

Anatomically correct doll right?

correct

and

enhanced

aycttttb, bub

[ergott]

correct

and

enhanced

aycttttb, bub

Where do the batteries go?

Will there be an AC option for extra power?

[93legendti]

IMHO, people are crossing the line all over the place on the forum. Some try to justify it in one way or another, but there really is no justification. They are using the forum as a marketing tool, plain and simple...

Yes, I agree. Some couch their promoting in the form "discussion", but when every other post from these select forumites repeat their fondness for a "certain" niche bicycle and a company they are associated with
happens to sell such a bike AND such company is mentioned repeatedly
in their posts, then, IMHO, you see the use of the forum as a marketing tool for non-Serotta bicycles.

On the one hand, people like Sachs, Kirk and Kellogg (there are many others as well, just can;t think of them off hand) seem to go out of their way to avoid being commercials for their products: they only answer direct questions about their bikes and their responses exhibit virtuous brevity. As a result, they reap benefits from being here out of respect for their opinions, contributions, as well as from positive statements by other forumites. On the other hand, you see the forumites who join a discussion about Serotta and another bicycle co., or 2 different Serotta models and seem to always mention their own bicycle company.

Could you ever imagine Richard Sachs, Dave Kirk or Tom Kellogg joining a discussion about a CSi vs. a CDA and respond by talking about their own products?

Anyway, it is Serotta's house. If it is ok with Serotta, it is ok with me.

(Disclaimer: nothing I've written here refers in anyway to a certain "Belgian" living in Massachusetts. :D )

[Kevan]

I got Sandy.

(Never make that mistake again....)