Help with value of a Moots

[TomP]

Hi all,

I am looking at this Moots on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271500327469?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

I would really appreciate if you could give me your opinion of the condition and price / value.

Thanks so much.

Tom

[Idris Icabod]

I have a 10 year old Moots Compact SL that I have been close to selling in the past and listed, but changed my mind. I had multiple offers around $2K including a Reynolds fork and King HS. This seems pretty reasonable to me at the buy it now price. Stem and seatpost I could have sold 20 times over!

[BirkWinn]

If you can get it close to the starting price that's a steal. Condition seems to be excellent! Even old Moots frames look brand new. If anything happens to it you can send it to Moots and have them refinish it and true the frame. Can't go wrong with a moots especially there top of the line frame

[pdmtong]

Small or large sizes of anything are not easily found especially for rsl with only 3-4 years production. This is early model since non moots fork. Having +1 is nice to future proof. New price is closer to $5k plus tax so even the bin is a good price if this is what you want

[malcolm]

Dream rides in moab has the rsl with fork for I think $4630

[oldpotatoe]

If you can get it close to the starting price that's a steal. Condition seems to be excellent! Even old Moots frames look brand new. If anything happens to it you can send it to Moots and have them refinish it and true the frame. Can't go wrong with a moots especially there top of the line frame

About $4600 new, F/F...1/2 of that screaming good deal. I think it'll go for about $2500-$2700....

[happycampyer]

I have seen that frame in person and it's in excellent condition (don't know the owner, but saw it in the shop being disassembled). The BIN price is very reasonable imo.

[Ahneida Ride]

My guess would be 2K.

But then if it fits ....

[pjmsj21]

Hi

I'm just curious as to how a Moots is able to retain its value as compared to a Seven, Serotta, IF which seem to go for less but with similar retail prices?

[cnighbor1]

However I think it is a MOOT point!
Charles
PS if that frame hasn't any issues than a great buy Has ti doesn't wear out like other frame materials

[pdmtong]

Hi

I'm just curious as to how a Moots is able to retain its value as compared to a Seven, Serotta, IF which seem to go for less but with similar retail prices?

cult following
excellent fabrication
clean aesthetic
stock sizes that ride great
few if any whacked custom designs

[texbike]

Hi

I'm just curious as to how a Moots is able to retain its value as compared to a Seven, Serotta, IF which seem to go for less but with similar retail prices?

IMO, it's the reputation that the company has developed over the years. The other companies that you mention have great reputations as well (except perhaps Serotta at this point), but none of them have managed to achieve the cult status that Moots has. I think it has to do with their use of the cute little Alligator or something like that. ;)

Texbike

[enr1co]

Ive a Moots Compact size 52 (stock size) with Enve 2.0 fork, King sotto voce headset headed to the selling block as I ended up getting a non sloping Ti frame.

The frame is a 2008 but new-ish condition, hardly ridden, less than ~600 miles on it. Enve fork and CK headset less than 300 mi.

PM if interested.

[malcolm]

However I think it is a MOOT point!
Charles
PS if that frame hasn't any issues than a great buy Has ti doesn't wear out like other frame materials

I agree with everything else stated above, but mostly it's just much better known.

Quoted the wrong post meant to get the one concerning moots holding their value.

[tuscanyswe]

Hi

I'm just curious as to how a Moots is able to retain its value as compared to a Seven, Serotta, IF which seem to go for less but with similar retail prices?

Speculating here. But serotta and seven (more so serotta) both offer custom geo (I know moots do as well but thats rare). Custom geo inevitable leads to some bikes looking poorly. To ad more "damage" serottas were often were painted in pretty bold custom paint. In total it leads to less % of the frames being desirable to the 2nd hand market and over time that trickles down to the "nice" frame as well. And for Seven i don't think its as popular of a brand as moots.

Moots never changed much to their designs either so why buy a new when the used is 99% of the new? In fact these days i prefer the ones from a few years back.

[texbike]

cult following
excellent fabrication
clean aesthetic
stock sizes that ride great
few if any whacked custom designs

I think that all of these are key and have allowed Moots to maintain it's brand identity across their entire line. Nothing whacky or crazy (well too wacky or crazy) to dilute their identity and what they stand for. Other builders that have stuck to their guns as well have reaped the same benefits. Sachs and Kirk are two examples that immediately come to mind. Their bikes tend to hold their value better than certain contemporaries that make arguably equal bikes. I honestly believe it's because they've decided what they want to be, have stuck with it, and perfected their creations to reflect those values.

In the words of the Avett Bros - Decide what to be and go be it. In my mind, Moots has done that and I'm willing to bet that when cyclists speak of high-end Titanium bikes, they're often one of the very first (if not the first) names that come to mind. Bravo to Moots for doing what they do.

Texbike

[bobswire]

I think that all of these are key and have allowed Moots to maintain it's brand identity across their entire line. Nothing whacky or crazy (well too wacky or crazy) to dilute their identity and what they stand for. Other builders that have stuck to their guns as well have reaped the same benefits. Sachs and Kirk are two examples that immediately come to mind. Their bikes tend to hold their value better than certain contemporaries that make arguably equal bikes. I honestly believe it's because they've decided what they want to be, have stuck with it, and perfected their creations to reflect those values.

In the words of the Avett Bros - Decide what to be and go be it. In my mind, Moots has done that and I'm willing to bet that when cyclists speak of high-end Titanium bikes, they're often one of the very first (if not the first) names that come to mind. Bravo to Moots for doing what they do.

Texbike

I must say I agree with this, I've owned Merlin, Seven and Moots, they all rode the same ( pristine) but there was something about the Moots I like the best even though the Seven seemed more designer and the Merlin with its history.

[tiretrax]

All the above are why the hold their value. Not many outliers or weird bikes out there. Eriksen's, too (he's one of the founders).

That bike is a steal. I'd bid on it if it were a 56-58 even though it's the last thing I need right now.

[CunegoFan]

I have been thinking of maybe selling mine and putting the money toward an Ericksen. Is the value of a traditional geo frame less than a compact? By how much?

[beeatnik]

Hi

I'm just curious as to how a Moots is able to retain its value as compared to a Seven, Serotta, IF which seem to go for less but with similar retail prices?

1. The weldz look great online.
2. Regular cats know they make great MTBs (Ti was big in that world in the 90s).
3. You get best in class performance without the guilt of buying a Tarmac or a Roubaix
4. When you see one in person beside other bikes, it's like seeing a MacBook Air next to a Dell at Starbucks.

[campy man]

+1 ... I agree, seems like the custom geo offered on a lot of recent Legend Ti frames makes them a less desirable. I have seen a few recent framesets that look like choppers.

In 2004 when I ordered my Legend Ti, I requested Serotta duplicate the geo and ride quality of my stock Csi ... simply make a lighter Csi. The salesman/fitter at the LBS really pushed hard for a taller front end and a few other geo changes.


speculating here. But serotta and seven (more so serotta) both offer custom geo (i know moots do as well but thats rare). Custom geo inevitable leads to some bikes looking poorly. To ad more "damage" serottas were often were painted in pretty bold custom paint. In total it leads to less % of the frames being desirable to the 2nd hand market and over time that trickles down to the "nice" frame as well. And for seven i don't think its as popular of a brand as moots.

Moots never changed much to their designs either so why buy a new when the used is 99% of the new? In fact these days i prefer the ones from a few years back.

[tigoat]

Watch out for that creaky PF30 BB...Moots do not look the same like they did 10 years ago when Brad the best welder was there.

[John H.]

This- Metal bikes and PF30 is Voodoo.
I had an RSL mtb that I sold because I could not make it quiet. And I am a good wrench.
I would also want to know if bike was specifically designed for that fork. Enve forks have a shorter axle to crown than most forks.

Watch out for that creaky PF30 BB...Moots do not look the same like they did 10 years ago when Brad the best welder was there.

[poff]

Chris King PF30 solves all of the creaking issues, at least for me it does.

[beercan]

Have a vamoots sl and always wondered in the new rsl felt any different, that one was on ebay earlier but I didn't see what it ended at, interesting that it has a normal head tube.

[pdmtong]

Have a vamoots sl and always wondered in the new rsl felt any different, that one was on ebay earlier but I didn't see what it ended at, interesting that it has a normal head tube.

the first ones shipped with enve forks and all had std HT.

now, moots fork is std and 44mm inset is optional so you will see both the normal and the fat headtube

[happycampyer]

the first ones shipped with enve forks and all had std HT.

now, moots fork is std and 44mm inset is optional so you will see both the normal and the fat headtubeThe RSL was originally designed around an Alpha-Q GS-40 fork, but shortly after the RSL was introduced Alpha-Q (well True Temper, Alpha-Q's parent) declared bankruptcy and Alpha-Q stopped production. So for a time, Moots offered the RSL with an Enve fork, and then they worked directly with a carbon manufacturer (which, as I understand it, makes forks for Enve, Trek, among others) to produce forks to their own specifications. Their forks look a lot like the Alpha-Q's, although they don't have the glue-in inserts. As you note, the original RSL's had standard headtubes for 1-1/8" steerers. The tapered steerer option wasn't added until a couple of years later.

On the topic of why Moots frames hold their value so well, this is what I wrote last fall about used ti prices in a thread asking about the value of a used Spectrum:

Having followed the market for used ti bikes a little more than casually over the last decade or so (and contributed my fair share to it), here's my take.

The majority of frames fetch somewhere between $1k and $1.5k, regardless of how much they cost new. So a relatively desirable $3k frame may lose 1/2 or more of its value, but a $4.5k frame (fancy paint, custom geo, butted tubes, etc.) may lose 2/3 or more of its value. Older frames, particularly ones with 1" headsets, or frames in odd sizes, with unusual geometries, or with very, how shall we say, personalized paint jobs typically sell at the low end of that range, and sometimes lower than $1k. A handful of frames sell for more than $1.5k, but only rarely for more than $2k.

In terms of brand resale value, the one that seems to hold its value the best is Moots, by far. My observation why that is is that the vast majority of Moots' frames are stock, are rarely painted, and their new prices have not gone up substantially over the last 5 - 10 years. So people have a pretty good idea what to expect when they buy one used, and that it's not going to be that different from buying one new. Almost all of the Moots I've sold over the years have sold for 60+% of what I paid for them new. From what I've observed, Spectrums have not enjoyed any special treatment in the used market vs. other premium, custom brands.

I would note that it is not unusual for used RSL's to sell for more than $3K. Another interesting thing I've noticed is that, even though Kent Eriksen founded Moots and has had on staff at any given time one of Moots' best welders (first Chris Moore and now Brad Bingham), the few used Eriksens that I have seen for sale on eBay and elsewhere do not retain their values as well as Moots. Again, I think it has to do with the stock vs. custom aspect—is the tube selection and geometry for rider x going to suit rider y? With Moots, a used stock frame is a $350 bead-blast refresh away from looking indistinguishable from a brand new frame.

This is not to say that, just because their resale value is higher, they are necessarily "better." A custom bike (in terms of geometry, tube selection, finish, etc.) may be better/preferable for a given rider, but the premium paid for those features is unlikely to be recouped upon resale.

To beercan's question, having owned three SLs and and RSL, I can say that the RSL is much stiffer than the SL. The SL rides like a regular Vamoots/Vamoots CR, but is lighter.

On the topic of PF-BB30, it's a double-edged sword. The giant bottom bracket shell gives the big tubes a landing pad with minimal overlap, and results in a really stiff bottom bracket. The downside is, the frames aren't popped out of a mold, so my guess is that there inevitably will be some frames that are going to be more susceptible to creaks than others no matter how precise the builder is. And choice of bearings/adapters etc. will be another factor. I have two ti frames with PF-BB30 (a 4-year old RSL and a Pronto), and neither creaks, but I know others who have had PF-BB30 ti bikes and have had issues, and there are plenty of complaints online.

[jimoots]

Personally I think USD2000 is a very good price for an '12 RSL w/Enve fork. USD2900 is getting up there but still probably in the 'fair price' range considering how new it is, and that it's an RSL.

I paid USD1685 + paypal fees + shipping to Australia (which ended up being free) for an '09 Compact with Enve 2.0 and CK headset. I don't think I'd call that a bargain, nor expensive - just a fair 'off-ebay' price.

I find that eBay goes for a premium because there are so many buyers and the sellers fees are pretty steep. 10% of sale price, if you sell it, and of course everyone knows there is 2.4% if accepting payment by PayPal.

Down here in Australia, second hand Moots frames go for about $3k and RSL's are $4k-ish.

And as many others have already said... Moots age extremely gracefully. A very future-proof purchase, no doubt.

[11.4]

Everyone has already said it, but I'd concur strongly that Moots has the best resale of pretty much any Ti frame. First and foremost, they abstained from weird designs as discussed above, so it's like buying an MX-Leader or a Richard Sachs -- you know what you're getting and it is built to ride, not just to fit someone's outlandish idea of what fits.

The one point I'd emphasize is that with a Chris King PF30 bottom bracket, the Moots frames don't creak. We've got several on our team and I think a FSA was the only outright creaky bottom bracket, but SRAMs were ok and the Kings have been flawless. Almost everyone is on King now and we've had zero problems. The bottom bracket shell is a high precision fixture and a precision fit to the King bottom bracket. BB30 bottom brackets got everybody sensitive to noise and fit issues, much of which were addressed by PF30. But while I've seen plenty of noisy frames, the newer frames and bottom brackets are much better, with the King/Moots combination being simply flawless.

Everything about a Moots frame is done well -- threaded welded fittings for water bottle cages instead of riv-nuts, superb TIG welding, immaculate bare metal finish. One has to search for a complaint about Moots frames -- probably the worst I can muster is that the decals can be fragile, but then Moots will send you replacements no charge. It's a great frame, even at a premium price.

[mcteague]

Ouch! That Enve fork needs to be taken off that frame ASAP! So ugly.

Tim

[oldpotatoe]

Watch out for that creaky PF30 BB...Moots do not look the same like they did 10 years ago when Brad the best welder was there.

Butch might disagree...I would too. Sold Moots in 2000 and in 2013. Plus Moots PFBB30 is not worse than any PFBB30.

[Beldar77]

The auction for frame referenced in the OP is ending soon. Right now the winning bid is $2600. It is my bid.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271500327469?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

I did not see the request from the seller to contact him if you have less than a 5 feedback score. I feel bad about that. If anyone wants to jump in it still seems like a good deal given how much bike this could be built up nicely ( probably more bike than I need).

I intend to honor the bid of course If I am the winner ( unless he exercises his right to cancel out my bid) I sent him a message several hours ago.

[oldpotatoe]

The auction for frame referenced in the OP is ending soon. Right now the winning bid is $2600. It is my bid.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271500327469?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

I did not see the request from the seller to contact him if you have less than a 5 feedback score. I feel bad about that. If anyone wants to jump in it still seems like a good deal given how much bike this could be built up nicely ( probably more bike than I need).

I intend to honor the bid of course If I am the winner ( unless he exercises his right to cancel out my bid) I sent him a message several hours ago.

Good luck, you will not be disappointed if you get to own it, ride it..

This too if you don't get the RSL

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=149420