interesting dario quote about disc brakes

[Climb01742]

from his facebook page:

'One of the main functions of disc brakes is to solve the problems of the carbon wheels manufacturers. Solve problems of the wheels is not my job.' --Dario Pegoretti

[redir]

What does he mean by that? Because wet carbon wheels don't brake as well?

[hummus_aquinas]

I think he's trying to say he won't be adding disc tabs to any of his frames any time soon. :cool:

[merckx]

Primary challenge is heat, second is stopping efficiency, third is complexity and final is weight.

[merckx]

Fifth is aesthetics.

[oldpotatoe]

Fifth is aesthetics.

Add $ in there.....for frame/fork/hubs/calipers/rotors/hubs....

[MattTuck]

Three cheers for Dario! :banana:

Hip Hip Hooray!


I'm no fan of disc brakes, but I appreciate Dario calling a spade a spade... this is solution to a self-invented problem. One of the things I admire about a bicycle is, despite all its engineering and materials science advancements, its simplicity. Disc brakes just seem to run counter to that.

[rustychisel]

this is solution to a self-invented problem. One of the things I admire about a bicycle is, despite all its engineering and materials science advancements, its simplicity.

agreed

[Netdewt]

One of the things I admire about a bicycle is, despite all its engineering and materials science advancements, its simplicity. Disc brakes just seem to run counter to that.

Also why electronic shifting doesn't make sense to me, as cool as it is, and useful for some.

I have definitely checked out disc brakes, and I would put them on an MTB. For road? I guess it really depends on the intended use.

[pdmtong]

I think he's trying to say he won't be adding disc tabs to any of his frames any time soon. :cool:

yup, lets get him to drill for EPS first...and "worry" about pegs with disc tabs a distant second!

[El Chaba]

Three cheers for Dario! :banana:

Hip Hip Hooray!


I'm no fan of disc brakes, but I appreciate Dario calling a spade a spade... this is solution to a self-invented problem. One of the things I admire about a bicycle is, despite all its engineering and materials science advancements, its simplicity. Disc brakes just seem to run counter to that.

Isn't it great when an icon lays it down on some dumb-assed subject desperately in need of it?

[EDS]

Are there any production disc road bikes yet other than Colnago? I know there are a ton of disc cross bikes.

[Mark McM]

Are there any production disc road bikes yet other than Colnago? I know there are a ton of disc cross bikes.

You mean other than those from Trek (Domane 6.9 Disc), Specialized (Roubaix SL4 Disc), Lynskey (Helix Disc), Volagi (all models), and a number of other brands?

[Ahneida Ride]

I'm no fan of disc brakes, but I appreciate Dario calling a spade a spade... this is solution to a self-invented problem.

This is true ... I like the concept of disks, but I'll bet that 99% of the time
a conventional set up is more effective and cheaper.

I have 2001 Record brakes on my Bedford (salmon KS pads) and the brakes
are excellent.

[d_douglas]

Will this never die? Disc brakes are great! In a few years, they will be spectacular and many of those who frown upon them here will be riding them.

I thought carbon was dumb until I rode a nice carbon bike. I thought full suspension bikes were dumb until I went on a trail ride with one and I still quote that ride as the most fun I have ever had on an MTB (I have never owned anything but a hardtail FTR). I thought Di2 was dumb, but am now curious. These things happen.

That said, Dario's quote is both interesting and true. It is a wheel technology issue primarily, but once wheeltech is refined to his taste, I imagine he will be jumping aboard.

I'm not opposed to rim brakes by any means, but have you ever tried Shimano disc brakes that are set up perfectly? Theyre a joy to use. That came from a decade of mediocre brake products being sold to us as 'great' brakes and they were actually mediocre at best.

That's evolution....

[chismog]

Some smart guy around here said "The frame is not the bicycle".

I love Pegs, but if big advancements in wheels come (lighter, stronger, faster), along with better braking, and maybe wireless electronic shifting... it's making the bike better, and I'll happily go buy a frame that works with all the new stuff.

[4Rings6Stars]

Some smart guy around here said "The frame is not the bicycle".

I love Pegs, but if big advancements in wheels come (lighter, stronger, faster), along with better braking, and maybe wireless electronic shifting... it's making the bike better, and I'll happily go buy a frame that works with all the new stuff.

Agreed.

[ EDIT: Sorry this was kind of an annoying rant...I'll leave it here though just for grins, but please feel free to skip over it. It's been a long day at work and I just read this thread and the wireless shifting thread and it's the same thing OVER and OVER from the same people. ]

All these comments against new bike technology... when will people accept that for better or worse, people are always going to be working on improving things. Sure, 10 speed mechanical shifting and dual pivot calipers work fine so there should be no need to improve... but then again, 9s worked fine too. And so did 8, and 7, and on down the line. I'm sure every time some new tech came out (adding a cog, index shifting, moving shifting to the brake levers...), there was outcry that it was adding unnecessary complexity to a simple machine. Looking back over time, this "simple machine" has improved dramatically. I can't wait to see what the future has to offer and I think disc brakes and wireless shifting are awesome, if only because they are new and interesting.

If you want a "classic" bike, then good for you! There are tons of options and you can even have a fancy one built by a dinosaur with speckled paint on it if you want!

[Climb01742]

I think Dario is simply stating his position and why he won't be doing disc brakes. He knows that will mean some buyers will cross him off their list. He's comfortable being true to his beliefs and not chasing every trend or sale. I admire that. And it's equally a-ok that each rider chooses the builder they want.

[Anarchist]

Agreed.

[ EDIT: Sorry this was kind of an annoying rant...I'll leave it here though just for grins, but please feel free to skip over it. It's been a long day at work and I just read this thread and the wireless shifting thread and it's the same thing OVER and OVER from the same people. ]

All these comments against new bike technology... when will people accept that for better or worse, people are always going to be working on improving things. Sure, 10 speed mechanical shifting and dual pivot calipers work fine so there should be no need to improve... but then again, 9s worked fine too. And so did 8, and 7, and on down the line. I'm sure every time some new tech came out (adding a cog, index shifting, moving shifting to the brake levers...), there was outcry that it was adding unnecessary complexity to a simple machine. Looking back over time, this "simple machine" has improved dramatically. I can't wait to see what the future has to offer and I think disc brakes and wireless shifting are awesome, if only because they are new and interesting.

If you want a "classic" bike, then good for you! There are tons of options and you can even have a fancy one built by a dinosaur with speckled paint on it if you want!

What on earth makes you believe that any of the things you see as "advancements" in bicycle technology are actually advancements and not merely a way to try and sell more bikes??

[sg8357]

Disc brakes for road bikes exist to make the world safe for carbon clinchers.

Dario will go disc once the 2016 Campy dual 107mm front rotor brakes are
available.

[tigoat]

Who cares what this Italian guy does anyway!

[oldpotatoe]

Who cares what this Italian guy does anyway!

Yeh, the real innovators are the guys who make molded plastic bikes out of a few molds.

Wireless shifting....please tell me what this will allow 'you' to do that couldn't be done with a wired electronic system?

Wet disc-heat, still a huge problem. Huge advantage in wet, muddy conditions-MTB. Tire contact patch means skidding tires before they fade to zero

Seat masts, tapered forks, internal routing, really stupid BB designs. Add wireless and wet discs....overly complicated, heavier, expensive.

IMHO

If ya want something 'because it's new and interesting', be my guest.

Slingshots and Softrides were new and interesting.

I think there is plenty of room for improvement that doesn't include wet discs or electro-mechanical shifting.

[tigoat]

Yeh, the real innovators are the guys who make molded plastic bikes out of a few molds.

Wireless shifting....please tell me what this will allow 'you' to do that couldn't be done with a wired electronic system?

Wet disc-heat, still a huge problem. Huge advantage in wet, muddy conditions-MTB. Tire contact patch means skidding tires before they fade to zero

Seat masts, tapered forks, internal routing, really stupid BB designs. Add wireless and wet discs....overly complicated, heavier, expensive.

IMHO

If ya want something 'because it's new and interesting', be my guest.

Slingshots and Softrides were new and interesting new.

Huh???:confused:

Oh give me a break! You don't have latest bike technologies? Why did you need Campagnolo EPS? Why did you need a custom frame? Why did we need Super Record? Why? The fact of the matter is that you do not need a lot of things for cycling but you buy them anyway. What a bunch of non sense contradictors! I suppose this Italian guy is your friend?

[donevwil]

Huh???:confused:

Oh give me a break! You don't have latest bike technologies? Why did you need Campagnolo EPS? Why did you need a custom frame? Why did we need Super Record? Why? The fact of the matter is that you do not need a lot of things for cycling but you buy them anyway. What a bunch of non sense contradictors! I suppose this Italian guy is your friend?

You clearly didn't read OP's full post. Near the end we wrote 'because it's new and interesting'. That should answer your questions.

[oldpotatoe]

Huh???:confused:

Oh give me a break! You don't have latest bike technologies? Why did you need Campagnolo EPS? Why did you need a custom frame? Why did we need Super Record? Why? The fact of the matter is that you do not need a lot of things for cycling but you buy them anyway. What a bunch of non sense contradictors! I suppose this Italian guy is your friend?

Didn't need EPS. Don't have a custom frame.

That custom Moots was a gift from Moots for supporting their brand for 13 years....it's on display at the shop. I ride my Merckx MXLeader and Vamoots. I drilled the MXLeader for EPS cuz I have a spare MXLeader and

Because
I
Can

If ya like BB non standards and all the rest, go buy it.

Yep, I know Dario, and Richard(Schwinn) too.


But there hasn't been anything new in bicycles that really makes cycling better since lever mounted index shifters and clip less pedals...mid-late 80s, early 90s.

[Anarchist]

Didn't need EPS. Don't have a custom frame.

That custom Moots was a gift from Moots for supporting their brand for 13 years....it's on display at the shop. I ride my Merckx MXLeader and Vamoots. I drilled the MXLeader for EPS cuz I have a spare MXLeader and

Because
I
Can

If ya like BB non standards and all the rest, go buy it.

Yep, I know Dario, and Richard(Schwinn) too.


But there hasn't been anything new in bicycles that really makes cycling better since lever mounted index shifters and clip less pedals...mid-late 80s, early 90s.

Absolute truth right there.

Lots of stuff to make it more expensive. Not better.

[Netdewt]

But there hasn't been anything new in bicycles that really makes cycling better since lever mounted index shifters and clip less pedals...mid-late 80s, early 90s.

I love this. What about the mountain bike?

[thwart]

Disc brakes for road bikes exist to make the world safe for carbon clinchers.


Which weigh 1350-1500 grams… and I've got a set of alloy clinchers in that ballpark…

… so tell me again, why are we talking about dropping a wad of $ for road discs?

Tell it like it is, Dario.

[ddonnell81]

On the road, discs make no sense to me. I can lock up my 10 year old dura ace caliper brakes in wet or dry conditions, and they modulate beautifully. Carbon clinchers make little sense to me with or without disc brakes, since they're at least as heavy as decent aluminum wheels, and generally more expensive. If I really want light weight, aerodynamic high performance, I have carbon tubulars, which don't have as much of the heat concerns, and I don't want to add weight to that set-up with discs anyway. I considered switching to discs for cross, but even there with v-brakes on carbon wheels, I can brake hard enough to lose traction, whether wet or dry (more easily in the wet, since traction is less). The ONLY reason i can come up with to switch to discs is not to wear out nice rims, but even so, my wheels usually die of something else before I've worn the rim braking surface out.

This is marketing driven. If disc brakes were invented first, then rim brakes, we would be marveling at amazing rim brake technology that not only supports the tire, but provides an enormous braking surface, thus saving weight and doing away with rotors and overbuilt hubs.

[oldpotatoe]

I love this. What about the mountain bike?

What about it? 'Cycling' includes the MTB and shimano's index shifters and clip less pedals on mountain bikes are a huge part as to why there was a boom in bike sales....in the mid to late 80s, led initially by MTBs.

[Ozrider]

A bicycle is a beautiful machine due to its simplicity.
All this electronic shifting, change to 11 speed, disc brakes, aero road bikes, endurance bikes etc are making cycling complicated.
I think it is time someone like Dario says enough.
I love light bikes, I love technology (Garmin, Strava etc) but one has to question who all these different bikes and standards benefit - the cyclist (end user) or the manufacturer and retailer.
Keeping a stock of spares is becoming a nightmare, bearings for all the BB standards is one area that is becoming a nightmare, now chains and cassettes in 9, 10, 11 speed versions, now let's just add disc rotors in various sizes, disc pads to suit, different shift/brake levers, and now to add complexity frames in mechanical/electronic and calliper/disc brake versions.
All this adds $$$$$$$$$$$$$ to the cost for the end consumer - you and I.
The question is does all this tech make riding any more enjoyable?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[pdmtong]

What about it? 'Cycling' includes the MTB and shimano's index shifters and clip less pedals on mountain bikes are a huge part as to why there was a boom in bike sales....in the mid to late 80s, led initially by MTBs.

certainly index shifting and clipless pedals were game changers for all of cycling

for mtb, you would have to add suspension and discs to that list as moving the overall needle for that genre.

I dont know what #3 and #4 would be for all of road cycling...

IMHO discs do have an application for some road scenarios, but I dont see them as game changers like the above if you set the bar at a "never going back to the way it was" threshold


Pete, your retirement Moots is simply fantastic.

[MattTuck]

certainly index shifting and clipless pedals were game changers for all of cycling

for mtb, you would have to add suspension and discs to that list as moving the overall needle for that genre.

I dont know what #3 and #4 would be for all of road cycling...

IMHO discs do have an application for some road scenarios, but I dont see them as game changers like the above if you set the bar at a "never going back to the way it was" threshold


Pete, your retirement Moots is simply fantastic.

In terms of racing, I think that aero carbon wheels are probably a game changer by your definition.... you can't dispute the aero benefits at the pro level.

So I guess then the question becomes, do we need to lump disc brakes in with carbon wheels as one entire innovative 'wheel system'... or can we just be content with carbon wheels and rim brakes?

[bluesea]

I stopped having opinions on the direction road race equipment is going. It's the path of least resistance. What the pros use is no longer relevant to my road riding. I accept that.

Having used a disc-ed SS MTB for a bit of commuting earlier this year, I'm sold on discs and Di2 for a future road bike.

As for whether the pros need all this new fangled stuff-- the industry doesn't spend big bucks on professional racing for nothing. Remember when we used to wait for Velonews to come out to find out the race results?

[Netdewt]

What about it? 'Cycling' includes the MTB and shimano's index shifters and clip less pedals on mountain bikes are a huge part as to why there was a boom in bike sales....in the mid to late 80s, led initially by MTBs.

Yes, I meant, maybe the development of the MTB itself in the 80's was "something new in cycling that makes it better". Maybe that's a little too captain obvious.

[fogrider]

Yeh, the real innovators are the guys who make molded plastic bikes out of a few molds.

Wireless shifting....please tell me what this will allow 'you' to do that couldn't be done with a wired electronic system?

Wet disc-heat, still a huge problem. Huge advantage in wet, muddy conditions-MTB. Tire contact patch means skidding tires before they fade to zero

Seat masts, tapered forks, internal routing, really stupid BB designs. Add wireless and wet discs....overly complicated, heavier, expensive.

IMHO

If ya want something 'because it's new and interesting', be my guest.

Slingshots and Softrides were new and interesting.

I think there is plenty of room for improvement that doesn't include wet discs or electro-mechanical shifting.

I can ride anything...but what do I want to ride? I'm afraid to try Di2. I know a few folks that have it and love it. when wireless comes out, its going to be a game changer, think about it, no more holes in the frame, you can slap it on any frame! if you have a beloved colnago from years past, just bolt on the derailleurs and shifters with 11 speed wheels, cogs and chain and you're ready to go!

[Kirk007]

Who cares what this Italian guy does anyway!

Seriously? Maybe you are just yanking chains, but as you're relatively new here, just in case you don't know, "this Italian guy" has forgotten more about frame design and construction than the rest of the collective here knows. If your not giving due consideration to "this Italian guy's opinions" your just being intentionally uninformed (which seems to be a growing trend in America these days).

[sante pollastri]

yes,who care about this?
can I decide to buy a bike that brakes better in rainy downhill with proper and lighter carbon rims,or have I to think why a steel framebuilder doesn't like disks,for some remote reason?

[velotrack]

The discussion rages on, but the only thing I see is opinions that won't change. Seems like everyone has their own views and are almost unwilling to give it up on both sides.

[sante pollastri]

The discussion rages on, but the only thing I see is opinions that won't change. Seems like everyone has their own views and are almost unwilling to give it up on both sides.

may be,but in this case people test disk road bikes and give their opinion,steel framebuilders make sentences.....

[rustychisel]

oh dear, "what have the Romans ever done for us?"

//

[Ozrider]

Read the latest TOUR Magazine test on disc brakes - there is still a way to go before they are truly ready for road bikes.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[round]

Framebuilders do not provide sentence.
Only opinions.
Everyone is free to interpret them as he wants, but I think there's not to forget that the opinions coming from the workbench.

[round]

Who cares what this Italian guy does anyway!
you, that take the trouble to reply to the thread.

[mcteague]

oh dear, "what have the Romans ever done for us?"

//

:D
Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Attendee: Brought peace?

Reg: Oh, peace - shut up!

Reg: There is not one of us who would not gladly suffer death to rid this country of the Romans once and for all.

Dissenter: Uh, well, one.

Reg: Oh, yeah, yeah, there's one. But otherwise, we're solid.

Tim

[happycampyer]

Framebuilders do not provide sentence.
Only opinions.
Everyone is free to interpret them as he wants, but I think there's not to forget that the opinions coming from the workbench.

It's always a treat when you chime in, Sr. Pegoretti. This place really used to be something special.

[spdcyclist]

Does anyone else think this cell phone fad is almost over? My rotary phone has been awful quiet...do any of you get an extra copy of the yellow/white pages? For some reason the keep missing my neighborhood.

Change happens all the time. Get used to it. Nothing wrong with sticking with something that you love, but, don't criticize, complain or condemn those that want to try new ways to solve old problems... If we all did that we would all still be falling off our Velocipedes :rolleyes:

[oldpotatoe]

Does anyone else think this cell phone fad is almost over? My rotary phone has been awful quiet...do any of you get an extra copy of the yellow/white pages? For some reason the keep missing my neighborhood.

Change happens all the time. Get used to it. Nothing wrong with sticking with something that you love, but, don't criticize, complain or condemn those that want to try new ways to solve old problems... If we all did that we would all still be falling off our Velocipedes :rolleyes:

First, discussion group/forum. Discuss or don't, up to you.

Solve old problems, absolutely..like how hard it is to find that gear when bouncing around in the dirt(friction shifters), or broken rear hub axles(freewheels) or feet that fall asleep(toe clips). But sorry, a scad of BB 'standards', electro-mechanical wireless shifting, hydro discs for dry road enthusiasts bikes....those don't solve 'problems', no answer to glaring questions.

But will these be here in 2014/5/6? You bet so vote with your $..The bike makers, bean counters and marketeers will thank you.

[round]

Was not a criticism, just a thought and an opinion and I do not condemn anyone, everyone is free to do whatever he wants, just let me say that it is not a new way to solve old problems, is a new way to solve new problems ..... and create new ones.

[sante pollastri]

opinions from people that rides kmiles every years,also with the rain,this really means.
I don't care about opinions delivered from a bench by people who refuse improvements like slope geometry,e.g.

[round]

the same old story .................

[thwart]

Slope geometry… ?

I thought we were discussing road discs.

But, since you brought it up, it's amazing to me that so many excellent frame builders somehow refuse to embrace the 'improvement' of slope geometry. Must all be fools, I guess… :rolleyes:

[round]

Slope geometry… ?

I thought we were discussing road discs.

But, since you brought it up, it's amazing to me that so many excellent frame builders somehow refuse to embrace the 'improvement' of slope geometry. Must all be fools, I guess… :rolleyes:
sure, i am fool .

[sante pollastri]

Slope geometry… ?

I thought we were discussing road discs.

But, since you brought it up, it's amazing to me that so many excellent frame builders somehow refuse to embrace the 'improvement' of slope geometry. Must all be fools, I guess… :rolleyes:
may be.....

[christian]

I hate sloped top tubes. They really make resting a thigh on the top tube and looking tranquilo at the stop lights more difficult than it has to be.

[cfox]

Guys like Sachs and Dario have the luxury of full waiting lists that allow them to not compromise what they like. One could argue the reason they both have full waiting lists is because they have not compromised what they like. Chicken/egg. I wonder at what point a trend/"innovation" becomes so entrenched that a refusal to adopt it might affect business.

[William]

Put the pointed sticks away, this is a no poking zone.:no:


Everyone has an opinion, some based on experience, some based on preference. Both are valid and worthy of respect. Now, discuss.....:)







William

[christian]

I wonder at what point a trend/"innovation" becomes so entrenched that a refusal to adopt it might affect business.I call that day Zanconato-disk-crosser-day.

Hey, on Saturday afternoon/evening I am riding from Oxford back to Chappaqua. Let me know if you want to join up for a few miles. Alternately, you can just wait at the end of your street, zoom up silently behind me as I pass the church, and ninja-draft. Then I can post about it here.

[jr59]

Put the pointed sticks away, this is a no poking zone.:no:


Everyone has an opinion, some based on experience, some based on preference. Both are valid and worthy of respect. Now, discuss.....:)







William

thanks

[witcombusa]

Will this never die? Disc brakes are great! In a few years, they will be spectacular and many of those who frown upon them here will be riding them.





Wanna bet?

[oldpotatoe]

Slope geometry… ?

I thought we were discussing road discs.

But, since you brought it up, it's amazing to me that so many excellent frame builders somehow refuse to embrace the 'improvement' of slope geometry. Must all be fools, I guess… :rolleyes:

Sloping top tubes created so that Giant didn't need to make as many frames. Like thread less, a way to save $, painted as 'performance'. It's as if shoe makers stopped making half sizes, and then more people fit a size 10...yep more people do, and like sloping top tubes, more fit it poorly. Been pretty much documented sloping top tubes do nuthin except save $, s/m/l/XL, for the builder, $ not passed along to riders.

[witcombusa]

But there hasn't been anything new in bicycles that really makes cycling better since lever mounted index shifters and clip less pedals...mid-late 80s, early 90s.



I'll say that neither of those really make it "better" either.... just different.

[WNCRider]

Put the pointed sticks away, this is a no poking zone.:no:


Everyone has an opinion, some based on experience, some based on preference. Both are valid and worthy of respect. Now, discuss.....:)






WilliamWhile my Colorado III was being repainted by BMac I had an opportunity to do approx. 10 rides on my son's CDale Synapse w/disc brakes without any performance issues whatsoever. Having said that, I still don't love the esthetics of disc brakes on road bikes and have no plans to make any changes any time soon.

[CunegoFan]

Sloping top tubes created so that Giant didn't need to make as many frames.

I must be getting cynical. Giant has havily embraced 27.5 for MTB. Small riders can have issues with 29ers and big riders don't want to go back to 26, but 27.5 is very convenient from a business point of view. It is then up to marketing to tout the change as the "Goldilocks wheel size" or, in other words, "one size fits all."

[texbike]

There's some funny s*** in this thread!!! :)

I'm in the camp that thinks the biggest advances last happened in the late 80s/early 90s for road bikes. Sure, there's been incremental increases in performance with different materials, construction techniques, and components, but there hasn't been anything that's been an absolute game changer in a long time.

I'll be sticking to mechanical systems and caliper brakes personally for the sake of simplicity and reliability. Hell, I even sold my FS/disc brake mountain bike for a Ti hardtail with rim brakes to reduce the complexity involved in the ownership of the FS (I'd rather be riding than wrenching). However, I don't begrudge anyone for wanting the latest and greatest technologies available. Ride what you like!

As for continued innovation, wasn't it Specialized that used to have the mantra "Innovate or Die"? I believe that philosophy had more to do with the financial health of the company than moving the sport forward. Many companies that are bringing these new technologies to market are doing it for the very same reason.

Oh, and hi Dario! Thanks for the input!!!

EDIT: One more thing - I agree -sloping top tubes on road bikes just aren't right. Now get off my lawn!!!

Texbike

[oldpotatoe]

I'll say that neither of those really make it "better" either.... just different.

Well, I know in the early 80s, 'MTB' were Ross' with roller can brakes and friction shifters and road bikes were Schwinn Varsitys with stem mounted friction shifters. When index came along, and many could actually shift the things, a huge number of people bought shimano STI equipped MTBs followed by road bikes.

Real enthusiasts still used Super/Nuovo Record and put up with friction, freewheels and numb feet.

Campagnolo, not recognizing this, almost went under.

They thought CDA was for enthusiasts but friction CRecord for serious cyclists.

[Climb01742]

Ultimately, each of us votes with their dollars or lire or euros, and we chose and ride what we like. Cool. That's how it should be.

But I think it's deeply admirable to stick to a set of beliefs you've come to by the work of your lifetime. It's so much easier, and more profitable, to go with the herd. We can fairly argue the merits of things like discs and sloping TTs, but I don't think it's debatable that Dario has a huge body of practical experience upon which to base his beliefs.

Then make your choice. And be happy that we have choices and each builder can follow their beliefs. Ain't that cool?

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Wow, we've managed to make a grand total of 3 basic points in 5 pages:
1. Disc brakes are new and cool and awesome!
2. Disc brakes are unnecessary and silly and just a way to line the pockets of bike companies.
3. More people should agree with [insert #1 or #2 here].

Fact of the matter is, disc brakes are slowly but steadily breaking into the road market. That'll happen whether we think it's needed or not. I'm confident the pros will be riding them soon, whether because they want to or because they have to. I'm equally confident that once they work their way into the peloton, plenty of folks will start riding them that have little or no need for the benefits associated with road discs. Nonetheless, pushing it into the elite levels will put even more pressure on Shimano et al. to solve the many challenges they currently pose (overheating, sharp edges, wheel changes, weight). So maybe this accelerates the pace of tech development, and we end up with a truly fantastic product that solves a problem we didn't even know we had.

I come at road discs from a terribly selfish position:

I would enjoy the improved wet weather carbon braking performance when racing in crummy weather
I don't want anyone else riding them because the unequal braking performance among disc and non-disc riders in a pack will exacerbate the risks of pack riding in the rain, and I really don't want to crash into a pile of sharp discs


I can see pros using different bikes for rain stages, and using discs in those situations. They run carbon wheels nearly all the time, and rain + carbon is where this tech would make the most obvious difference for a rider at that level (if it would make a difference at all). Having tried (unsuccessfully) to follow an elite rider downhill, I was shocked how late they apply the brakes. It's like F1 driving - full steam, get on the brakes at the last possible moment, clear the turn, back on the gas. If discs allowed them to brake even a second or two later in the rain, that would make a difference for a breakaway on a rainy, twisting descent. I just don't see the same benefit anywhere else - at least for those guys.

[sante pollastri]

Sloping top tubes created so that Giant didn't need to make as many frames. Like thread less, a way to save $, painted as 'performance'. It's as if shoe makers stopped making half sizes, and then more people fit a size 10...yep more people do, and like sloping top tubes, more fit it poorly. Been pretty much documented sloping top tubes do nuthin except save $, s/m/l/XL, for the builder, $ not passed along to riders.

sure?
Try to hard climbing out of the saddle....

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Let's keep it on topic, folks. This stuff has been well covered across the hall:
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/sloping-top-tubes-whats-history-15395.html

[fuzzalow]

Great for us that Dario drops by occasionally. Hope he continues to do more of the same. Dario innovates in his own way and at his own speed. You want fad and flash? There's always Colnago.

[oldpotatoe]

sure?
Try to hard climbing out of the saddle....

Yep, I'm sure. Sloping vs level, any material, it makes no difference.

To think so is the stuff of marketeers..

Only one reason to make a bike sloping. Person riding it, their fit spec's, require a certain headtube length. That coupled with their stand over/inseam, means the top tube slopes. Period. This smaller/stiffer triangle stuff is fiction when riding the thing.

[fuzzalow]

^ Agree. This is the same kinda malarkey when blokes say they can feel the difference in the weight of a seatpost that they like because they can sway the bike back & forth easier on the climbs. Yikes!

Stuff like that sounds so goofy to me that it seems like it was desperation on the part of marketeers to come up with something/anything for ad copy. Which they did. And people bought it! Now it is a performance advantage!

[sante pollastri]

Yep, I'm sure. Sloping vs level, any material, it makes no difference.

To think so is the stuff of marketeers..

Only one reason to make a bike sloping. Person riding it, their fit spec's, require a certain headtube length. That coupled with their stand over/inseam, means the top tube slopes. Period. This smaller/stiffer triangle stuff is fiction when riding the thing.

O.T.
Do you think that Gaulzetti,Anderson,Llewellyn,R.lobster,Baum,Fieefl y,Moots etc.etc.etc.....make sloping frame in order to save money and to do 3 or 4 sizes?
Don't they do custom frames? Which could be the reason they make sloping frames and also,some of them,disk equipped frames?

[sante pollastri]

^ Agree. This is the same kinda malarkey when blokes say they can feel the difference in the weight of a seatpost that they like because they can sway the bike back & forth easier on the climbs. Yikes!

Stuff like that sounds so goofy to me that it seems like it was desperation on the part of marketeers to come up with something/anything for ad copy. Which they did. And people bought it! Now it is a performance advantage!

I think your bike culture is very close to zero....

[jr59]

O.T.
Do you think that Gaulzetti,Anderson,Llewellyn,R.lobster,Baum,Fieefl y,Moots etc.etc.etc.....make sloping frame in order to save money and to do 3 or 4 sizes?
Don't they do custom frames? Which could be the reason they make sloping frames and also,some of them,disk equipped frames?


The simple truth is, most, if not all of those guys will build you anything you wish. FOR ENOUGH MONEY!

[oldpotatoe]

O.T.
Do you think that Gaulzetti,Anderson,Llewellyn,R.lobster,Baum,Fieefl y,Moots etc.etc.etc.....make sloping frame in order to save money and to do 3 or 4 sizes?
Don't they do custom frames? Which could be the reason they make sloping frames and also,some of them,disk equipped frames?

Look at the history of sloping and how the marketers painted it, while Giant saved bunch of money going from 10 sizes to 4.

They(moots) do a sloping frame because a portion of the market asks for them also part of the market needs them for fit issues. I know the guys at Moots and none will say sloping performs any better than horizontal.

Not lighter(when you add 400mm+ seat post), not stiffer, not nuthin but easier to sell to some....like you sounds like.

As has been mentioned, some makers chase every new gadget and gizmo as soon as they can(seat masts!) and others.....don't, like Dario. You buy/ride whatever ya want but know what will make a ride difference and what empties your wallet.

IMHO, of course.

[Anarchist]

Was not a criticism, just a thought and an opinion and I do not condemn anyone, everyone is free to do whatever he wants, just let me say that it is not a new way to solve old problems, is a new way to solve new problems ..... and create new ones.

Thank you, and glad you chimed in here.

[sante pollastri]

The simple truth is, most, if not all of those guys will build you anything you wish. FOR ENOUGH MONEY!

so,they don't believe in their work,just only do what a customer want?
I don't think so.

[mcteague]

Look at the history of sloping and how the marketers painted it, while Giant saved bunch of money going from 10 sizes to 4.

They(moots) do a sloping frame because a portion of the market asks for them also part of the market needs them for fit issues. I know the guys at Moots and none will say sloping performs any better than horizontal.

Not lighter(when you add 400mm+ seat post), not stiffer, not nuthin but easier to sell to some....like you sounds like.

As has been mentioned, some makers chase every new gadget and gizmo as soon as they can(seat masts!) and others.....don't, like Dario. You buy/ride whatever ya want but know what will make a ride difference and what empties your wallet.

IMHO, of course.

Custom builders use sloping top tubes to achieve a workable bar height without lots of spacers or a too long ST.

Tim

[sante pollastri]

Custom builders use sloping top tubes to achieve a workable bar height without lots of spacers or a too long ST.

Tim

no,there are several ways to avoid spacers,they make slope because they believe in this geometry.

[oldpotatoe]

Custom builders use sloping top tubes to achieve a workable bar height without lots of spacers or a too long ST.

Tim

You are right of course. Fit requires a certain headtube length, stand over means a certain top tube height over the ground, result is sloping top tube.

Good Builders don't believe in anything but good fit and a great, subjective ride.

A builder could make a sloping top tube a noodle and they do make horizontal top tubes stiff/stiff.

[witcombusa]

Well, I know in the early 80s, 'MTB' were Ross' with roller can brakes and friction shifters and road bikes were Schwinn Varsitys with stem mounted friction shifters. When index came along, and many could actually shift the things, a huge number of people bought shimano STI equipped MTBs followed by road bikes.

Real enthusiasts still used Super/Nuovo Record and put up with friction, freewheels and numb feet.

Campagnolo, not recognizing this, almost went under.

They thought CDA was for enthusiasts but friction CRecord for serious cyclists.

Well personally, I find a Simplex SLJ with retrofriction levers a pure pleasure to ride compared to Super/Nuovo Record kit. It shifts so much better, but the Campy stuff is pretty...

As to freewheels and numb feet, I've never broken an axle (or even bent one) and don't suffer from numb feet with or without cleats. As I still am using this equipment, now 40ish years worth, it is a data point. Some folks are harder on gear, road conditions, etc. Just my experience.

I think our perspective is just slightly different. You base much of "improvement" on the accessibility of the general population and total sales. I on the other hand only care what works (or doesn't) for my cycling.

[sante pollastri]

You are right of course. Fit requires a certain headtube length, stand over means a certain top tube height over the ground, result is sloping top tube.

Good Builders don't believe in anything but good fit and a great, subjective ride.

A builder could make a sloping top tube a noodle and they do make horizontal top tubes stiff/stiff.

well,we are waiting for an ATMO slope.

[spdcyclist]

...discs for dry road enthusiasts bikes....those don't solve 'problems'...

I have mechanical discs on my commuter bike because they stop better in the rain than my bikes with rim brakes. They may not be pretty, but, I like how they work in wet weather.

[redir]

All I can say is my next cross bike will have disk brakes.

As for slopping TT's. My Moots has one and I like it. When I corner I like to put my knee inside over the TT. It seems pretty obvious to me that a smaller triangle would be stiffer than a larger one. The Moots is the only bike in my stable of over ten bikes that does not high speed wobble. I always chalked that up to the compact design. Not scientific obviously.

[Mark McM]

Sloping top tubes created so that Giant didn't need to make as many frames. Like thread less, a way to save $, painted as 'performance'. It's as if shoe makers stopped making half sizes, and then more people fit a size 10...yep more people do, and like sloping top tubes, more fit it poorly. Been pretty much documented sloping top tubes do nuthin except save $, s/m/l/XL, for the builder, $ not passed along to riders.

While there have been some technology/design changes introduced simply for the benefit of the manufacturers, the two mentioned above aren't among them.

Threadless steerers have made everybody's lives easier, not just the OEMs. Unlike with threaded steerers, we no longer have to worry about steerer length when replacing the fork - they can be cut to fit any head tube length. Threadless headsets don't need special tools to adjust, they only need one common tool (a 5mm allen wrench). And threadless headsets almost never come loose on their own (my threaded headsets still occasionally loosen up). As far as height adjustability, as long as the steerer isn't cut too short (a common mistake), a threadless stem has about the same amount of adjustability as a quill stem, just by swapping spacers between the top and bottom of the stem.

Allowing the frame's top tube to slope opens up more options in frame design, giving the frame designer (and consumer) more variability to achieve the desired fit. A horizontal top tube is an arbitrary limitation that has no technical justification, and sometimes limited the number of frames that a rider could choose for a good fit. Riders can now choose frames based on stack and reach, without having to worry about standover height.

[mcteague]

You are right of course. Fit requires a certain headtube length, stand over means a certain top tube height over the ground, result is sloping top tube.

Good Builders don't believe in anything but good fit and a great, subjective ride.

A builder could make a sloping top tube a noodle and they do make horizontal top tubes stiff/stiff.

I prefer the look of a level TT but allow the builder to do what they think is best. I'll take a sloping TT over tons of spacers under the stem.

Tim

[oldpotatoe]

Well personally, I find a Simplex SLJ with retrofriction levers a pure pleasure to ride compared to Super/Nuovo Record kit. It shifts so much better, but the Campy stuff is pretty...

As to freewheels and numb feet, I've never broken an axle (or even bent one) and don't suffer from numb feet with or without cleats. As I still am using this equipment, now 40ish years worth, it is a data point. Some folks are harder on gear, road conditions, etc. Just my experience.

I think our perspective is just slightly different. You base much of "improvement" on the accessibility of the general population and total sales. I on the other hand only care what works (or doesn't) for my cycling.

I was in bike shops starting in 1985...I saw the market explode.

A sample of one. Btw, my main rides, 2 are CRecord friction, freewheel. Work everyday.

[oldpotatoe]

While there have been some technology/design changes introduced simply for the benefit of the manufacturers, the two mentioned above aren't among them.

Threadless steerers have made everybody's lives easier, not just the OEMs. Unlike with threaded steerers, we no longer have to worry about steerer length when replacing the fork - they can be cut to fit any head tube length. Threadless headsets don't need special tools to adjust, they only need one common tool (a 5mm allen wrench). And threadless headsets almost never come loose on their own (my threaded headsets still occasionally loosen up). As far as height adjustability, as long as the steerer isn't cut too short (a common mistake), a threadless stem has about the same amount of adjustability as a quill stem, just by swapping spacers between the top and bottom of the stem.

Allowing the frame's top tube to slope opens up more options in frame design, giving the frame designer (and consumer) more variability to achieve the desired fit. A horizontal top tube is an arbitrary limitation that has no technical justification, and sometimes limited the number of frames that a rider could choose for a good fit. Riders can now choose frames based on stack and reach, without having to worry about standover height.

There was only one reason Giant went sloping and one reason Rockshox went thread less. It was $. There may be a few reasons they 'may' be better but less SKUs=less $.

[d_douglas]

What I think is pretty cool is that the 'author' of this contentious quote has weighed in. You don't get that everyday.

Thanks for your comments, Dario -


Darren

[round]

What I think is pretty cool is that the 'author' of this contentious quote has weighed in. You don't get that everyday.

Thanks for your comments, Dario -


Darren
De nada, is a great pleasure to be here.

[oldpotatoe]

well,we are waiting for an ATMO slope.

Richie has done sloping I am sure, for fit issues.

Atmo

[oldpotatoe]

De nada, is a great pleasure to be here.

I have lusted after a Luigino for years, double fork crown. 57....Joe(Hughes) and Chad(Nordwall)can't get one.....

[sante pollastri]

There was only one reason Giant went sloping and one reason Rockshox went thread less. It was $. There may be a few reasons they 'may' be better but less SKUs=less $.

this is about genesis,often big advances are casual.

[Mark McM]

There was only one reason Giant went sloping and one reason Rockshox went thread less. It was $. There may be a few reasons they 'may' be better but less SKUs=less $.

I would think that any changes that were good for both the vendors (less $) and the customers (better utility) should be applauded as an advancement in the right direction, not derided as an unnecessary change.

Another example might the recent crop of dual BCD cranks. These replace both standard and compact cranks (less SKUs for the manufacturer) and greater flexibility in chainring configuration (greater utility for the customer). Seems like a win-win situation overall.

[oldpotatoe]

I would think that any changes that were good for both the vendors (less $) and the customers (better utility) should be applauded as an advancement in the right direction, not derided as an unnecessary change.

Another example might the recent crop of dual BCD cranks. These replace both standard and compact cranks (less SKUs for the manufacturer) and greater flexibility in chainring configuration (greater utility for the customer). Seems like a win-win situation overall.

My point, once more, and I was in the trenches when both happened, was the primary reason the two mentioned manufacturers went to 4 size sloping and thread less.

It was to save money, period. They both painted how each were huge performance advantages....and neither were. Certainly not huge.

[pbarry]

:D
Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Attendee: Brought peace?

Reg: Oh, peace - shut up!

Reg: There is not one of us who would not gladly suffer death to rid this country of the Romans once and for all.

Dissenter: Uh, well, one.

Reg: Oh, yeah, yeah, there's one. But otherwise, we're solid.

Tim

Post of the year! Well done. :hello:

You might add "film making", but there's no reason to guild the lily.

[cfox]

Richie has done sloping I am sure, for fit issues.

Atmo

I'd bet he hasn't. If a customer required a sloping top tube, I'm certain he would kindly tell them to buy a bike elsewhere.

[rwsaunders]

you, that take the trouble to reply to the thread.

+1