ZAP breaks Ti frame

[zap]

First frame I broke thats not due to a crash.

I feel lucky that I found the crack while placing the bike on the Computrainer earlier this week. The drive side chainstay peeled with only an 1/8" left between either end of the crack. I knew something was wrong towards the end of my last road ride as the rear felt quite loose. I'm glad it didn't completely break while I was doing hill sprints.

This was my grunge bike so it's normally covered with crud. This makes it difficult to quickly see cracks, etc.

So, be careful. If something doesn't feel right, inspect your ride. Actually, clean and inspect your ride often. Every few years I'm guilty of being complacent and pay for it. I got lucky this time.

[Tailwinds]

What kind of frame is it?

I found a crack in the original Look fork on my Litespeed when I was cleaning it. I'm glad I found it that way and not the hard way.

[Too Tall]

Wow, what a coincidence. Zaps Ti bike is a Look :rolleyes:

[zap]

Wow, what a coincidence. Zaps Ti bike is a Look :rolleyes:

It's a conversation starter. Or was. But thats another story.

Frame was lovingly crafted in southeastern US.

[LegendRider]

I know this was covered in another thread, but it has been my experience (admittedly unscientific) that ti frames break more frequently than other materials. I recall a time when Cannondales broke at an alarming rate, but that doesn't seem to be the case now. But, I've seen Litespeeds, pre-Litespeed Merlins and even Serottas break more than I would expect. In many cases, the frame broke more than once. A local Atlanta rider sent his Legend back to be repainted and Serotta found a crack. Of course, they notified him and repaired and repainted it at no expense to him. But, it has now cracked again in an entirely different location. I have no doubt Serotta will take care of him, but I can't help but wonder why this occurs.

[Smiley]

purging of the welded area on build up . Zap you looking for another bike or are you going to restore the orginal decals and ship it back to Tenn. and ask for a replacement warranty .

[Too Tall]

No way Smiley, I have "dibs". I'm going to install a Ti roll bar in Betty.

[BumbleBeeDave]

<<Frame was lovingly crafted in southeastern US.>>

Like maybe in Tennessee?

BBD

[Samster]

is it because of air contaminating the welds? was it at a weld point? i've never broken a frame (except when i got taken out by a car...) how old was the bike?

[cpg]

Without testing it's difficult to determine exactly why things break. It could be due to a host of things and to speculate why is waste of time. Everything can break. Even ti which seems to bewilder people because for years the mere utterance of titanium congered up images of kryptonite in their minds. I'm glad that you didn't get hurt. Your frame can be repaired but it might not be cost effective. Or it might. Good luck.

Curt

[chrisroph]

I have a big strong friend who broke his legend in the same place.

[Spinner]

i've heard that the boys in tennesse do not flood their work with argon during the welding process which significantly compromises the integrity of the weld.

[vaxn8r]

I thought you had to "flood with Argon" to get O2-free ti welds. I don't know much about this process but it's not like you can do "sort of O2-free" welds can you?

[Kevan]

take it easy on the kickstand clamp.

[zap]

The break is quite close to a welding zone, so it could very well be heat related. The part appears to be machined as well, so take your pick.

Frame was 11 years old.

What to do. I haven't decided yet. Litespeed would probably just replace the tube. This frame is not worth the effort. So, I'm leaning towards cutting up the frame and use one of the tubes as a weapon to whack burglars with.

[Smiley]

Make Yard Art out of it :)

[Sandy]

Make Yard Art out of it :)

Yep! And let your neighbor powerwash it for you every few weeks. :rolleyes:


Sandy

[Samster]

Frame was 11 years old.


Well... 11 years is a long time. If you did 2500 miles per year, that adds up to 26,500 miles total. Don't a lot of modern material bikes have about 25-35K in them? Don't know... just speculating. Good luck with it whatever you do, though the burglar stick idea sounds a bit drastic...

[saab2000]

Park it on cinder blocks in the front yard. Or on some old wheels. Claim you are just waiting to restore it if the neighbors complain about having a vehicle permanently parked in the grass.

Or send it back to Litespeed where I bet they give you either a new frame or a big discount on a new one.

[TimB]

I think maybe you could hang the frame from the ceiling in your kitchen, attach a few hooks, and hang pots and pans from it.

But seriously - this is the third frame from those boys in the SE that I know of that's broken just among our old AX group. Walt's broke within a couple of years, and Eric N (145 lbs dripping wet) had his break his in about the same time span.

Me, I won't be buying a frame from them.

[Too Tall]

Hacksaw party at Zaps house :)
I got beer. Who's in?

[Smiley]

A hack saw won't cut it , maybe we try a tractor pull to cut this thing up :)

[Serotta PETE]

purging of the welded area on build up . Zap you looking for another bike or are you going to restore the orginal decals and ship it back to Tenn. and ask for a replacement warranty .

I like the way you let that r-o-l-l off the tongue - even the TENN>

[Serotta PETE]

Well... 11 years is a long time. If you did 2500 miles per year, that adds up to 26,500 miles total. Don't a lot of modern material bikes have about 25-35K in them? Don't know... just speculating. Good luck with it whatever you do, though the burglar stick idea sounds a bit drastic...

Friend of mine still has my old Colorado from 1990. It definitely has over 40k miles on it and still going strong. (He never gets rid of anything - he has had it for 14 years with original paint.) Steel is real as Mr. Smiley says.

[lnomalley]

you have to be joking. 11 years? ratcheting it down in a trainer much in those 11 years? ever ride it weeks on end in a triner and expect it to last like a bike that never get's put in a trainer?

i think you need to go back to the title of this thread and add in the 11 years bit.. and mention the trainer bit too. and then send a big thanks to the titanium industry for making a product that lasted so long....
'breaks' seems to be the wrong word...
just for fun i want everyone reading this to overtighten their lightest bike on a trainer and do out of the saddle sprints.. really honk on the front end. and see how many days it lasts.

computrainer spin scan month?

all in good fun.. but holy moly.. that's an interesting way to look at it. yeah, your 11 year old frame sure did break. my frame broke when a truck ran over it and a building collapsed on it and i hit it with a sledge hammer a thousand times for a decade. but that's why carbon sucks.
*laughter*

[Smiley]

Don't let that Zapster fool you he's one strong dude and he probably puts that poor low end Lites something to the test every time he clamps that baby down and puts watts on that computrainer thingy too . Yes I recall Serotta did not suggest you clamp down an Ottrott to a wind trainer for maybe the same reasoning. Zap , you might need to hire Jackie Childs if you want to sue somebody ( I hope you know who Jackie Childs is .. ? ).

[zap]

Okay.

I do have more than one bike.

Considering how many bikes I have, etc, I suspect I have 20-22K on this heavy ti frame. Computrainer time. Sure some. As did several of my other bikes that are older with more miles.

Inomalley, I don't think I complained that the damm thing broke. Just glad that it didn't happen when I was on the road. And advising others to inspect their bikes on a regular basis.

Considering how many used ti frames are sold and how many consider ti to last forever, I think it's worthy community service.

[lnomalley]

just havin a laff. yes.. your life depends on your bike. check it every ride. check it every time you pull it off the trainer. it takes ten seconds.

[csm]

how would you cut that up?

[Sandy]

Well... 11 years is a long time. If you did 2500 miles per year, that adds up to 26,500 miles total. Don't a lot of modern material bikes have about 25-35K in them? Don't know... just speculating. Good luck with it whatever you do, though the burglar stick idea sounds a bit drastic...

I think that titanium bikes have a whole lot more miles in them than 25-35k. Titanium bikes fatigue very, very slowly from what I understand. Some say that they don't fatigue at all, but that isn't really correct. An extremely knowledgeable man once told me that all metals fatigue, some faster than others. I think that dbrk (another smart one) would say that titanium (and even steel) bikes would still be going strong many years after the rider was no longer wih us. I doubt that he would say that about carbon.


Hamster

[Too Tall]

carbide blade my friend and I'd saw it ever sooo slooowly.

Doh, that will make a lovely set of wind chimes.

Zap? How about it? Heck that tile saw you have is just the ticket for tuning the tubes once we get em' loose.

I've got the hot stuff brad point bits to drill out the holes. Wooo wooo.

[autoloclys]

I doubt that he would say that about carbon.

Carbon should last just as long as Ti or steel if cared for, which means something different than it does for the metals. Steel needs to be kept dry and covered in paint, Ti needs to be, well i dont know what degrades Ti but surely something does, and Carbon needs to be not stored in Direct sun or under grow lamps or hit with hammers.

I know its not the point of this thread but its one of those un-true-itudes about carbon that it doesnt last. It does. Steel rusts when exposed, and simlarly the resins in composites break down when exposed to UV light. If you care for a carbon frame it will last. If you dont it will break. Same is true of Ti or steel, Al is a whole other story. Ask your neighborhood engineer about the fatigue life of an al frame sometime.

[Sandy]

I am sorry if my post indicated that I thought that carbon won't last. I was saying that I would doubt dbrk would say that carbon bikes would have the longevity of steel and titanium. I think that he would say we just don't know. I think it best for me not to state would I think dbrk would say, as he can say it exraordinarliy well himself.


Sorry Sandy

[vaxn8r]

Actually there is some data that shows CF (OCLV) and AL (Cannondale) had better fatigue resistance than the steel and ti frames tested. A lot of it is in the design...more than the material.

[bshell]

ti cuts just fine with a hacksaw, angle grinder, abrasive cut off saw, etc. you can even use a plumber's tubing cutter. just took 6 inches off a seatpost the other day.

as for the suggestion that frames only have a 20k mile lifespan i think that is a pretty low estimate.

i was talking with a local pro road/cross guy (acquaintance) from sierra nevada that he typically rides 20-22k miles each year. sometimes 25k. hard use, rain and shine. he has been on ti, alu, and carbon. i know people that have inherited his used frames and it seems that if they were well made to begin with it is not an issue. grouppos are a whole different matter. you don't want a used grouppo from a pro.

[vaxn8r]

Froze used to post on here that he had about 150K miles on a steel Trek...

[Mikej]

Carbon should last just as long as Ti or steel if cared for, which means something different than it does for the metals. Steel needs to be kept dry and covered in paint, Ti needs to be, well i dont know what degrades Ti but surely something does, and Carbon needs to be not stored in Direct sun or under grow lamps or hit with hammers.

I know its not the point of this thread but its one of those un-true-itudes about carbon that it doesnt last. It does. Steel rusts when exposed, and simlarly the resins in composites break down when exposed to UV light. If you care for a carbon frame it will last. If you dont it will break. Same is true of Ti or steel, Al is a whole other story. Ask your neighborhood engineer about the fatigue life of an al frame sometime.

Learned this from a Boeing engineer who did various studies on the metal. It was in a "bent state" meanining sheet was somewhat "bowed" or "flexed" to various degrees up to creased. He stated various grades / thicknesses would fail upon contact w/ teflon.

[zap]

Regarding trainers, has anyone quantitatively studied the effects of trainer use on frames. Does limiting the movement of the rear axle put more strain on the frame vs. hammering on rough roads?

Regarding cutting ti. I've used a hack saw to cut seatposts and have modified other ti parts easily. But the tile cutter would be really fast.

Not sure ti would make an attractive wind chime. Wouldn't it sound kind of dull?

[Too Tall]

Same can be said for Parrots.
That sounds like a fascinating piece of science. If you've got a reference I'd love to dig into that.

[Mikej]

Same can be said for Parrots.
That sounds like a fascinating piece of science. If you've got a reference I'd love to dig into that.
He did an internship fellowship thing for a year. No real data, it was in the 70's. Could be some on a laptop somewhere in Los Alomos....

[Too Tall]

Mike - YOU scare me man. My mind was wandering along the lines of if suppose a big flying hunk of Ti was in tension and a weaponized teflon were...oh nevermind.

Zappato - It would be be a beautiful sound....subtle, homemade...nice surprise for Zipper :) I've got scrap Teak at home if you hurry....just pitched a big Teak breakfront in our dumpster...go for it.

[Mikej]

Mike - YOU scare me man. My mind was wandering along the lines of if suppose a big flying hunk of Ti was in tension and a weaponized teflon were...oh nevermind.

Zappato - It would be be a beautiful sound....subtle, homemade...nice surprise for Zipper :) I've got scrap Teak at home if you hurry....just pitched a big Teak breakfront in our dumpster...go for it.
I scare myself, but I used to always tri flow my squeeky Flite Ti rails, they broke often! Teflon is actually a by-product of the atom bomb project, so there could be weaponized version in the mix in a sand bunker in a ...

[Ozz]

Interesting info, but I could not find anything referencing teflon:

http://www.timet.com/cod-p08.htm

I have heard of some folks using plumber tape, which is teflon / PTFE on bottom bracket installations to eliminate squeaks. If it is true that it corrodes Ti, I guess this would be a bad idea...thoughts?

[Too Tall]

If my warped mind is getting this...it ain't oxidation that causes the breakage.