looks like SRAM electric is indeed wireless!!!

[wallymann]

http://youtu.be/9Yn_U7vcB4g

[Nooch]

awesome.

[MattTuck]

Nah, that'll never happen.

Oh, wait. That isn't what I said at all. It's fun to read these old threads and the crazy stuff we talked about.

Thoughts on wireless shifting from a year ago. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=128548)
Thoughts on wireless from 2012 (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=115647)

[beeatnik]

No more double tap.

Pretty clever design. One lever for upshifts, the other for down and then both levers together for front shifting. Intriguing.

[thegunner]

that seems weird switching hands for upshifts and downshifts. and it bet it looks equally weird when you flick both your hands in to shift for front.

question though, does that mean you flick both hands in for up and down shift on the FD.

[Rada]

Rear shifting pretty straight forward. Front using both shifters could be tricky.

[bluesea]

Also intriguing is the changing of right shifter/left shifter functionality. Or should i say baffling?

[tiretrax]

Wireless seems like a natural progression for electronic shifting. What will we do with unneeded cable guides?

[phcollard]

That is seriously awesome.

I can't wait to see russian hackers with dirty laptops sitting at the back of team cars and trying to mess with other team's derailleurs :D

[kgreene10]

That is seriously awesome.

I can't wait to see russian hackers with dirty laptops sitting at the back of team cars and trying to mess with other team's derailleurs :D

Exactly what I was thinking, minus the Russian part.

[split]

Up and down-shifts corresponding with right and left shifters makes sense to me, but tapping both to shift the front ring is odd. Seems the next logical step is sequential shifting, "smart" shifting, so the bike shifts the front and rear derailleurs automatically depending on what gear you want. Or just do away with the front derailleur and do a 1xN setup for road.

Oh, and wireless braking. ;)

[oldpotatoe]

No more double tap.

Pretty clever design. One lever for upshifts, the other for down and then both levers together for front shifting. Intriguing.

How does a wrench get it onto the big ring when it's in the stand? Turn crank(1), shift both levers(2,3)..."how does it feel to ride a group w/o wires?"

Huh?

[Asudef]

I was telling a buddy the Bissell team was riding these prototypes but the thought came into my head that they'd have to be cleared by a ruling body for racing.

I'm not too well versed on how all this happens but how is all this governed?

[nrs5000]

No simultaneous front/back shift, I guess.

[Mark McM]

No simultaneous front/back shift, I guess.

Hmmm. It seems like the options on which derailleur/how many cogs is getting fewer and fewer with each 'advance' in shifters.

With downtube shifters, one could shift directly to any sprocket/chainring with a single action. One could also shift both front and rear derailleur simultaneously, with good finger coordination.

With mechanical brifters, we could still shifter several rear sprockets at a time, although with Shimano systems we could only do that when going to larger sprockets. But even still, we could shift both derailleur simultaneously.

Now SRAM wants to remove the ability to shift both derailleurs simultaneously?

[tuscanyswe]

How does a wrench get it onto the big ring when it's in the stand? Turn crank(1), shift both levers(2,3)..."how does it feel to ride a group w/o wires?"

Huh?

I would assume that you can still click the rear lever untill it max out and then the comp will automaticly upshift the front for you, no?
Thought thats what electronic groupsets did but perhaps i got it wrong.

[Tony T]

I still use a wired cyclometer :)

[oldpotatoe]

I would assume that you can still click the rear lever untill it max out and then the comp will automaticly upshift the front for you, no?
Thought thats what electronic groupsets did but perhaps i got it wrong.

Donno. Maybe it will be such that on small ring, to higher gear in rear and front then shifts(?) no more big big to 200 meters to go and dump to highest gear.

I donno, water proofness, how it really works, what lever does what, multi channel or sold as set, charging enclosed batteries in levers, $. He mentioned 'aero-ness', w/o wires, add big der bulge....?

We'll see and where are those road/cross disc calipers and levers??

[tuscanyswe]

Donno. Maybe it will be such that on small ring, to higher gear in rear and front then shifts(?) no more big big to 200 meters to go and dump to highest gear.

I donno, water proofness, how it really works, what lever does what, multi channel or sold as set, charging enclosed batteries in levers, $. He mentioned 'aero-ness', w/o wires, add big der bulge....?

We'll see and where are those road/cross disc calipers and levers??


Producers are always gonna make silly claims to sell parts.
And dont get me wrong im in your corner in the campy vs the world game :)

I think all wireless shifting is a big improvement and it could be a big deal for whoever does it (well) first. All that retrofitting of old frames or loose wires on the outside is no longer an issue with wireless. Just pick your favorite frame and go..

[beeatnik]

Old P, what if this is the first SRAMz road group that shifts properly and lasts more than a season?

[FlashUNC]

Old P, what is this is the first SRAMz road group that shifts properly and lasts more than a season?

SRAM's supposed to last more than a season???

[nooneline]

I have it on good authority that the two-button front shift is not how it actually works.

An early iteration worked like that, and then mechanics were like "we can't work on this," so they moved to something else.

But my source won't tell me WHAT.

[beeatnik]

SRAM's supposed to last more than a season???

haha..*if*

[thirdgenbird]

If sram can call xx1 or x1 a full group without a front derailleur than I call BS on the first full wireless group. Mavic had a wireless group sans FD ages ago.

[pavel]

cant wait to see how they manage to massively ···· this one up.

[tigoat]

Once the patent is granted, Shimano and Campagnolo might be in trouble, as the wireless portion might just belong to SRAM. It will probably be a while before we see it in production with some major bugs ironed out but the concept is super cool nonetheless.

[FlashUNC]

Once the patent is granted, Shimano and Campagnolo might be in trouble, as the wireless portion might just belong to SRAM. It will probably be a while before we see it in production with some major bugs ironed out but the concept is super cool nonetheless.

How does SRAM get the patent when Mavic's already done wireless over a decade ago?

http://s4f9b55a471ef4.img.gostorego.com/809E82/cdn/media/s4/f9/b5/5a/47/1e/f4/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/img_6478_1280x853.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

Once the patent is granted, Shimano and Campagnolo might be in trouble, as the wireless portion might just belong to SRAM. It will probably be a while before we see it in production with some major bugs ironed out but the concept is super cool nonetheless.

Doubt they can patent 'wireless' any more than shimano or Campagnolo could patent 'electro-mechanical shifting'.

[thirdgenbird]

Once the patent is granted, Shimano and Campagnolo might be in trouble, as the wireless portion might just belong to SRAM. It will probably be a while before we see it in production with some major bugs ironed out but the concept is super cool nonetheless.

Wireless has been done. A wide wireless patent likely isn't an option. How they implement it could be, but there should be ways around that.

[velotrack]

Oh, and wireless braking. ;)

I'll pass on this.

[thirdgenbird]

Wait. Why doesn't this have hydralic rim brakes?:fight:

[wallymann]

...What will we do with unneeded cable guides?

one solution:

https://www.coastaltool.com/a/makita/images/9564cv_app.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

Wait. Why doesn't this have hydralic rim brakes?:fight:

Why indeed...all got recalled, not back yet.

A hoot to hear the one Bissell guy talk it up, the other say, meh, and the slam guy do the no comment thing...high drama. And Bissell??

[54ny77]

I'm waiting for wireless Bissell vacuum cleaners.

[velotrack]

Why indeed...all got recalled, not back yet.

A hoot to hear the one Bissell guy talk it up, the other say, meh, and the slam guy do the no comment thing...high drama. And Bissell??

Yeah, second guy basically said it was about the same as its been.

Of course, we couldn't have expected the SRAM guy to say anything. It was probably the safe way to go to let the media look and speculate.

[kgreene10]

I don't know a thing about patents but why wouldn't it be possible to patent wireless shifting yet Apple patented the wedge design of my MacBook Air and hundreds of other seemingly small features?

[thirdgenbird]

I don't know a thing about patents but why wouldn't it be possible to patent wireless shifting yet Apple patented the wedge design of my MacBook Air and hundreds of other seemingly small features?

You can't patent a product that already exists. Wireless shifting was around when I was a kid.

[Bob Ross]

How does a wrench get it onto the big ring when it's in the stand?

In all seriousness (well, maybe half-seriousness) I'll bet they come out with a handheld Universal Remote Control as part of the SRAM reseller's diagnostics package.

[shovelhd]

You can't patent a product that already exists. Wireless shifting was around when I was a kid.

Has it expired? Is this system exactly the same?

[atrexler]

wireless shifting? Can't wait till this starts going wrong in the wrong places.

To my mind, if you're a pro cyclist with a dedicated, professional mechanic keeping your derailleurs in order, why add more complexity (electronics, wired or wireless, batteries, etc.) to the mechanism (shifting), which will undoubtedly add to the probability that your shifting will fail. To be sure, sponsors will just demand they ride whatever the sponsors want...

It's still unclear to me what the allure of electronic shifting is. Not having ridden it I can't really judge.

[oldpotatoe]

wireless shifting? Can't wait till this starts going wrong in the wrong places.

To my mind, if you're a pro cyclist with a dedicated, professional mechanic keeping your derailleurs in order, why add more complexity (electronics, wired or wireless, batteries, etc.) to the mechanism (shifting), which will undoubtedly add to the probability that your shifting will fail. To be sure, sponsors will just demand they ride whatever the sponsors want...

It's still unclear to me what the allure of electronic shifting is. Not having ridden it I can't really judge.

Went to Interbike..visited the shimano booth where there was a really obscure front der, setup, on a cruiser type bike..asked the shimano guy, "what's that for?".."for selling", he responded...

I have EPS, it's keen but I also have 4 other bikes which are all freewheel/friction shifting that I haven't 'tuned' in 25 years.

[druptight]

i'm waiting for wireless bissell vacuum cleaners.

+1, lol

[FastforaSlowGuy]

I've heard a lot of small-handed cyclists (mostly women) say that electronic shifting is a revelation. My wife is seriously considering going that direction at some point. Even with the ever-shrinking throw distances, her super-short fingers mean that FD shifting or multi-cog shifting in the rear requires some serious wrist contortions. I've had her on just about every shift system available so far, and I think the easiest solution is push-button electronics.

I don't see why everyone gets bent out of shape over wireless v. wired. We had the same debates when computers went wireless, and with modern Ant+ and Bluetooth systems I've never had a cross-talk problem. I can imagine some techie d-bag figuring out how to hack this stuff and turning it into the new "tacks on the road." But if it were a major risk, I'm sure car racing (which relies HEAVILY on real-time telemtry and other electronics) would have already run into this problem.

[thirdgenbird]

Has it expired? Is this system exactly the same?

I'm not sure if Mavic ever patent it but we are talking 15 years ago.

The point us that sram can not patent "wireless shifting" because the product already exists. Sram should be able to patent part of how they implement wireless shifting, but because a wireless option came before them, there should be enough room for shimano and Campagnolo to make wireless options without infringement if they choose to do so.

[shovelhd]

I'm not sure if Mavic ever patent it but we are talking 15 years ago.

The point us that sram can not patent "wireless shifting" because the product already exists. Sram should be able to patent part of how they implement wireless shifting, but because a wireless option came before them, there should be enough room for shimano and Campagnolo to make wireless options without infringement if they choose to do so.

That was my point.

[shovelhd]

I've heard a lot of small-handed cyclists (mostly women) say that electronic shifting is a revelation. My wife is seriously considering going that direction at some point. Even with the ever-shrinking throw distances, her super-short fingers mean that FD shifting or multi-cog shifting in the rear requires some serious wrist contortions. I've had her on just about every shift system available so far, and I think the easiest solution is push-button electronics.

I don't see why everyone gets bent out of shape over wireless v. wired. We had the same debates when computers went wireless, and with modern Ant+ and Bluetooth systems I've never had a cross-talk problem. I can imagine some techie d-bag figuring out how to hack this stuff and turning it into the new "tacks on the road." But if it were a major risk, I'm sure car racing (which relies HEAVILY on real-time telemtry and other electronics) would have already run into this problem.

I also have small hands and benefit greatly from electronic while racing. The sprint shifters are a game changer for me. Yes, Campy thumb shifters do the same thing but they are placed way too high for me and are not adjustable. I optimize the placement of the sprint shifters so that I barely have to lift my thumb to shift. I don't know if anyone has tried to lift their thumb in a full tilt sprint, but believe me it is hard, especially with small hands.

If the rear SRAM shifting works as described, that is how the Shimano sprint shifting works.

[ergott]

But if it were a major risk, I'm sure car racing (which relies HEAVILY on real-time telemtry and other electronics) would have already run into this problem.

I watch a lot of Formula 1 and there is always a car or two that lost telemetry in a race. Just a couple of races ago in China, Rosberg (Mercedes factory team) and Bottas (Williams) lost telemetry for the whole race. No more money is spent on R&D than in this sport.

Nico Rosberg, 2nd
"That was not a perfect weekend for me. Too many things went wrong, beginning with a technical problem and a less than perfect job from me in qualifying. Today I didn't have any telemetry, so there was no communication from the car to the pits. My engineers couldn't see what was going on in my car and therefore they couldn't set up my clutch for the start. The clutch was completely on the wrong place, which is why I had a really bad start. "

Williams
Valtteri Bottas, 7th
"It was a good race for me despite some hard contact at the start which cost me a few positions. I also had to drive the whole race without telemetry which isn't the easiest thing to do."

[El Chaba]

This crap has about as much chance of working properly as an explosion in a printing press resulting in Webster's unabridged dictionary....

[nooneline]

I also have small hands and benefit greatly from electronic while racing. The sprint shifters are a game changer for me. Yes, Campy thumb shifters do the same thing but they are placed way too high for me and are not adjustable. I optimize the placement of the sprint shifters so that I barely have to lift my thumb to shift. I don't know if anyone has tried to lift their thumb in a full tilt sprint, but believe me it is hard, especially with small hands.

If the rear SRAM shifting works as described, that is how the Shimano sprint shifting works.

When I rode Campy I used to "charge" the thumb button in the final kilometer or so, upshifting and holding it down so that when i started to shift, i still had two or three shifts left in the thumb button without having to move my hands much. not possible with EPS and whatever they branded the one-shift-only thumb button iterations.

It solved problems, but tapping SRAM's lever is even easier.

[atrexler]

It would be a fun comparison if we could find out how much $$ has been spent by shimano/sram/campy on electronic shifting R&D and then find out what percentage of a Formula 1 R&D budget that would be. My expectation is that it would be a single digit percentage.

I agree that there are probably people and applications where electronic shifting could be beneficial. It seems like FD shifting for people with small hands could be greatly enhanced. I have fairly small hands for a dude and getting my chain back on the big ring in the front is not a trivial lever throw. Then again, when I'm doing that I'm typically hitting the top of a large climb and not super worried about needing that shift to happen instantly and with minimal hand movement.

Another thing that bothers me about the trend is that it increasingly makes the mechanisms of a bike more of a black-box. With electronic shifting, wired or otherwise, if something goes wrong it seems like there are only a few fixes you can attempt yourself before giving up and going to the bike shop. For me, one of the parts of cycling I really, really enjoy is that everything on the bike is an open book. I could fix pretty much anything on my bike if I wanted (granted with considerably less skill than a shop mechanic). Shifting is a simple mechanical system of wires, springs, screws, levers ,etc. That's great to me; and electronics just takes it all out of my hands. Just a personal opinion.

[gavingould]

well... a friend who works at SRAM (his bike was photographed running the electric group at our state CX championships back in December and again at Midwest Regionals) is at TOC this week... he posted an Instagram yesterday of this:
http://scontent-a.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-prn/t51.2885-15/10349636_1405953439687088_153090187_n.jpg

pretty funny, though back then someone joked that they'd just snip his wires on the start grid - another employee mentioned offhand he wouldn't have any difficulty shifting, so it was understood then that they were running wireless prototypes at least.

[Charles M]

wireless shifting? Can't wait till this starts going wrong in the wrong places...


This ain't cars and sure as heck ain't F1...


It's bikes.

The signals we're talking about for bicycles are extremely simple relative to auto products. And an F1 car will send more Data over a greater distance per bit in a single lap than a bike system will in 5 years. It will also withstand 100 times the temps and force / vibration.


We don't think twice about wireless bike computers and wireless power meters which also send multiple times the data at multiple times the frequency...


And lets make damn sure to ignore that there isn't a wire stretching from space down to the GPS units loads of us are running... (also with more data)



.....But someone talks about using in a space of no more than a few feet for shifting and we lose our minds.

Much like we did when Shimano started in with electronic shifting in general, which is now the gold standard in shifting for Shimano and Campy...



There are two other wireless shifting set ups that will launch hopefully this year... One at Eurobike the other still proto.

So lets not use up all our b!tch1ng now!

[Bob Ross]

I've heard a lot of small-handed cyclists (mostly women) say that electronic shifting is a revelation. My wife is seriously considering going that direction at some point. Even with the ever-shrinking throw distances, her super-short fingers mean that FD shifting or multi-cog shifting in the rear requires some serious wrist contortions. I've had her on just about every shift system available so far, and I think the easiest solution is push-button electronics.

^^^This. My wife is a licensed massage therapist who relies on her hands for her livelihood. Pushing the fd into the big ring on a mechanical system so stresses her hand that she's actually missed work the day after a long ride. Electronic shifting was not just a game-changer for her, it was a life-saver.


We don't think twice about wireless bike computers and wireless power meters which also send multiple times the data at multiple times the frequency...

Sure...but at least once per ride, sometime for a few seconds and sometimes for minutes at a stretch, my CatEye wireless cyclometer looses the signal from the transmitter. I can deal with my trip distance being off by a few miles, or not knowing my current speed for several minutes (or hours, or days, LOL!), but imagine a similar dead-zone/drop-out preventing you from shifting even for a few seconds?

Given how cluttered the RF band is already, I might even be more concerned about interference from other nearby devices causing unintended actions than dead-zones causing inaction.

[ergott]

We don't think twice about wireless bike computers and wireless power meters which also send multiple times the data at multiple times the frequency...



We also don't mind as much when data is dropped from the computer. I don't know enough about wireless to say confidently one way or another if the technology is there to have completely reliable shifting. The real proof is when the actual product comes out.

Personally, I don't have enough faith in Sram to purchase any new wireless group when it first comes out. Talk about a company that likes to beta on paying customers.

[shovelhd]

We also don't mind as much when data is dropped from the computer.

With power meter data, I certainly do. When my Quarqs were failing, they dropped data, which screwed up all of my training metrics that define my training plan. But you're right, it didn't shut down the engine.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

I don't think data drops from power meters or speed/cadence are analogous. Those things transmit data on a near-constant basis (fractions of a second, if I recall), and even then a data drop happens maybe once or three times over the course of a ride. Unless your ride is going horribly wrong, I presume you are doing more than just hitting your shift levers four times a second. So the signal is very episodic. Even assuming that the same signal technology is used, the odds of shifting at the same time the signal goes out is not that high. Granted, if it does happen, and if it happens at a critical moment in a race, I'd be more than a little ticked off. But then I've also had my mechanical system go bananas on me out of the blue at the worst possible moment, and even pros have a mis-shift or dropped chain.

I'd be surprised if anyone -even SRAM (which I happen to like despite its poor durability) - would release a product into the wild without knowing if the signal quality is sufficient.

[ergott]

With power meter data, I certainly do. When my Quarqs were failing, they dropped data, which screwed up all of my training metrics that define my training plan. But you're right, it didn't shut down the engine.

Who owns Quarq again?;)

[ceolwulf]

Wireless shifting should be pretty much as reliable as a wireless mouse or keyboard. I don't recall the last time any of mine have lost connection. Been years probably. Don't even think about it.

[malbecman]

I don't think data drops from power meters or speed/cadence are analogous. Those things transmit data on a near-constant basis (fractions of a second, if I recall), and even then a data drop happens maybe once or three times over the course of a ride. Unless your ride is going horribly wrong, I presume you are doing more than just hitting your shift levers four times a second. So the signal is very episodic. Even assuming that the same signal technology is used, the odds of shifting at the same time the signal goes out is not that high. Granted, if it does happen, and if it happens at a critical moment in a race, I'd be more than a little ticked off. But then I've also had my mechanical system go bananas on me out of the blue at the worst possible moment, and even pros have a mis-shift or dropped chain.

I'd be surprised if anyone -even SRAM (which I happen to like despite its poor durability) - would release a product into the wild without knowing if the signal quality is sufficient.

I agree 100%.....since the shift signal would be so episodic (as opposed to near continuous), they could simply up the signal strength. It would be like like the signal box was shouting "SHIFT UP NOW!" to the rear der.

[thirdgenbird]

I'd be surprised if anyone -even SRAM (which I happen to like despite its poor durability) - would release a product into the wild without knowing if the signal quality is sufficient.

You are talking about a company that released unreliable brakes into the market despite years of experience making similar products. Some of their statements about testing were downright troubling after this incident.

[shovelhd]

Wireless shifting should be pretty much as reliable as a wireless mouse or keyboard. I don't recall the last time any of mine have lost connection. Been years probably. Don't even think about it.

Your wireless mouse uses ANT+? I'd like one of those. I could set a Strava KOM by sliding it across the dining room table. :)

[odin99]

here's a thought...

what is the shifting options are programmable? if you want it like the original double tap, program that in. if you want a custom shifting option, program it in. how cool would that be?

i personally am not a fan of the idea of having to use two hands at once to shift the front ring. what if i want i'm taking a drink and need to shift?

[ceolwulf]

Your wireless mouse uses ANT+? I'd like one of those. I could set a Strava KOM by sliding it across the dining room table. :)


lol, not what I said at all, but if you find one that does let me know :P


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[oldpotatoe]

This ain't cars and sure as heck ain't F1...


It's bikes.

The signals we're talking about for bicycles are extremely simple relative to auto products. And an F1 car will send more Data over a greater distance per bit in a single lap than a bike system will in 5 years. It will also withstand 100 times the temps and force / vibration.


We don't think twice about wireless bike computers and wireless power meters which also send multiple times the data at multiple times the frequency...


And lets make damn sure to ignore that there isn't a wire stretching from space down to the GPS units loads of us are running... (also with more data)



.....But someone talks about using in a space of no more than a few feet for shifting and we lose our minds.

Much like we did when Shimano started in with electronic shifting in general, which is now the gold standard in shifting for Shimano and Campy...



There are two other wireless shifting set ups that will launch hopefully this year... One at Eurobike the other still proto.

So lets not use up all our b!tch1ng now!

Really, I didn't know that..gold standard, what makes it so?

Sending just data and sending a signal that actually does something/moves something are 2 different things...in importance. One means you don't see how fast you are going or where you are, the other means the rear rear der won't shift.


Sure the big 2 will have some sort of wireless...but like wet disc brakes on road bikes..what problem does wireless(or electronic shifting for that matter) solve, what question does it answer?

Build a group you can put on your 1980 Colnago??

[chiasticon]

i'm not really one who likes electronic groupsets for the most part. my biggest gripe is that they're just so bulky, chunky and ugly. i'm sure the shifting's great, but i'm not really having issues with my shifting in general. the concept of needing less tuning is cool, but i also enjoy working on my bikes. also...simplicity is nice. which is what both mechanical and wireless are to me. so i'm interested in seeing where this goes.

for those saying "oh sram'll screw this up..." you may be right. but i remember a recent ride with a friend who brought out his new DA di2. he crashed on some black ice. thankfully there was no major damage but his di2 said "oh you crashed! well let me make your life suck more and just shut down shifting altogether while you're in the big ring!" (granted, i understand there's a workaround for this, but he didn't know what at the time and had to just hobble home.)

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Really, I didn't know that..gold standard, what makes it so?

Sending just data and sending a signal that actually does something/moves something are 2 different things...in importance. One means you don't see how fast you are going or where you are, the other means the rear rear der won't shift.


Sure the big 2 will have some sort of wireless...but like wet disc brakes on road bikes..what problem does wireless(or electronic shifting for that matter) solve, what question does it answer?

Build a group you can put on your 1980 Colnago??

Lots of stuff wrong here. First, you're presenting a data drop as something that will turn our bikes into fixies. It's not. It's at worst a missed shift for a fraction of a second. We've all done that on mechanical systems, although there it's generally user error.

Second, I think it is generally recognized that DI2 and EPS have raised the bar for near perfect shifting. Are the mech versions very good? Sure but the elec versions are just a bit more perfect. (Says the guy who likes his bikes mechanical.)

Finally, the problem they are solving is wires. When the market is regularly making elec and mech versions of the same frame, there is an opportunity there. No more worrying about whether going from mech to elec will require weird wire runs, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shovelhd]

Di2 crash mode is not a workaround, it's a documented procedure. Ignorance of proper use should not reflect on the product.

Electronic isn't for everyone, that's for sure.

[oldpotatoe]

Lots of stuff wrong here. First, you're presenting a data drop as something that will turn our bikes into fixies. It's not. It's at worst a missed shift for a fraction of a second. We've all done that on mechanical systems, although there it's generally user error.

Second, I think it is generally recognized that DI2 and EPS have raised the bar for near perfect shifting. Are the mech versions very good? Sure but the elec versions are just a bit more perfect. (Says the guy who likes his bikes mechanical.)

Finally, the problem they are solving is wires. When the market is regularly making elec and mech versions of the same frame, there is an opportunity there. No more worrying about whether going from mech to elec will require weird wire runs, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

-Missed shift or no shift, if data is lost for more than a fraction of a second.

-electro-mechanical shifting is not a game changer IMHO. Just trons doing the same thing cables did. I am not a electrical anything but I would think 4 separate powered locations with signals coming and going aren't as reliable as it all being hardwired.

-wires are a problem? Cables aren't a problem, I don't see wires as a 'problem' even on frames plumbed for electronic.

-there will be no wireless only frames, until all 3 makers do what SRAM has appeared to do. In reality, take a mechanical frame(majority made) and be able to put wireless electro-mechanical on it.

[notoriousdjw]

-Missed shift or no shift, if data is lost for more than a fraction of a second.

-electro-mechanical shifting is not a game changer IMHO. Just trons doing the same thing cables did. I am not a electrical anything but I would think 4 separate powered locations with signals coming and going aren't as reliable as it all being hardwired.

-wires are a problem? Cables aren't a problem, I don't see wires as a 'problem' even on frames plumbed for electronic.

-there will be no wireless only frames, until all 3 makers do what SRAM has appeared to do. In reality, take a mechanical frame(majority made) and be able to put wireless electro-mechanical on it.

ANT+ establishes a channel where all the devices will send and listen at a specific periodic time (isochronous transmission). The last datapoint will be resent if nothing changes so a split second loss of data will at worst delay shifting. When you have something like a power meter that is sampling data constantly, lost packets can mean lost data because the powermeter has moved on to the next sample. Shifting is significantly less dynamic.

Even if you clicked multiple times the shifter could send out the gear number or some other sequence number to let the derailleur know that multiple shifts have occurred since the last update. There is lots of good info on the ANT protocol which was designed for body-worn sensors. It used the benchmark goal of running for 1 year on a CR2032 watch battery. My guess is that each shifter will have a 2032 battery and the deraillers will have larger rechargable units to move the servo motors.

All this is speculation but ANT is a purpose-built protocol for this environment, is well thought out, and has lots of industry support. It is specifically designed to deal with extreme battery life concerns, crosstalk, interference, etc.

[tigoat]

You can't patent a product that already exists. Wireless shifting was around when I was a kid.

You can patent anything that has not been patented. There is a lot of cool products out there are not patented. Some stuff (some sports drinks) can be patented but the inventor may choose not to patent to keep it a secret, as the patent will reveal everything for the public. I am not too clear with this particular case with SRAM's wireless shifting but I would think they would have done their homework (patent search) before filing a patent, as it is very costly to go through the process.

[thirdgenbird]

You can patent anything that has not been patented. There is a lot of cool products out there are not patented. Some stuff (some sports drinks) can be patented but the inventor may choose not to patent to keep it a secret, as the patent will reveal everything for the public. I am not too clear with this particular case with SRAM's wireless shifting but I would think they would have done their homework (patent search) before filing a patent, as it is very costly to go through the process.

My only comment is that they can't patent "wireless shifting" they can surely patent their tech or application of such. Sram will not be able to keep shimano or Campagnolo from selling wireless shifting. They may be forced to do it differently, but sram can't own wireless shifting as a whole.

And while you "could" patent something that has not been patented before, I am nearly sure it is void if it can be proved that the product already existed 1 year prior to the application.

Edit:

From the US patent office:
How can I tell whether the patent is valid?
An invention must meet certain threshold criteria of novelty, usefulness and nonobviousness in order to be patented. See this glossary for an explanation of these concepts. You may challenge the claims in a patent (or patent application) by showing they should not have been granted, or should not be granted, if these criteria are not met.
For example, the USPTO or a court may conclude that a claim in a patent or application is invalid if the claimed invention was disclosed, for example, in a prior patent or patents, a book, a magazine, a newspaper, a television show or movie, a webpage or other published work before the date of the claimed invention. Even if there are no such publications, a court may conclude that a patent claim is not valid if it is shown by other evidence that the claimed invention was offered for sale in this country or was disclosed to the public before the application for patent was filed. In addition, a court could find the patent invalid because it does not meet other statutory requirements, such as a sufficient written description of the invention, or because it does not describe subject matter that is patentable. Finally, a court could find that the patent is unenforceable because of wrongdoing by the applicant, such as by defrauding the USPTO.

"Wireless shifting" was advertised and available for sale in the US. A a patent on wireless likely won't go through. Again, how they implement wireless is another story.

[Charles M]

Really, I didn't know that..gold standard, what makes it so?

Sending just data and sending a signal that actually does something/moves something are 2 different things...in importance. One means you don't see how fast you are going or where you are, the other means the rear rear der won't shift.


Sure the big 2 will have some sort of wireless...but like wet disc brakes on road bikes..what problem does wireless(or electronic shifting for that matter) solve, what question does it answer?

Build a group you can put on your 1980 Colnago??


You're wrong...

The signal doesn't "actually does something"...

It's just the carrier of a bit of information that tells a mechanism on the other end of the data to do something...

There are tons more data in telemetry than in shifting... And you're still ignoring the distance the data had to travel around a race track versus a few feet on a bike as well as also ignoring the conditions in a car being multiple times more difficult.

A bike basically says shift up, shift down, shift front, and is handled by a board half the size of the one shown here...

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/kb19.jpg


Where as the home system screen showing all of the network required for telemetry controlling an F1 car is this:


http://photos.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Lotus-Screen-Grab.png


For those counting, That's 9 monster PC's running data from roughly 30 Data transmiters / ECU's / web cam / operator screens and sending the signals through this network to 36 separate monitors including the garage, track side and rear pit areas...


The "signals" are roughly as similar as comparing a shotgun and a cruise missile being similar because they "both go boom".



As for what questions does wireless answer, I would guess it's the same as everything else that has lost cords and hardware over time as well as efficiency of operation... I would guess maintenance is simpler and build up of a bike might be easier without cords. There's also the weight... That you're logged onto the internet means you have at least a basic grasp of the benefits of electricity.


And yes, you would likely be able to mount a wireless set up to a Colnago from 1980 with a little massaging. Although it would be a bit odd not to have any levers on the down tube and an extra 5 gears would probably confuse the guys who's mind stopped allowing them the ability to acknowledge the benefit of virtually any new product.


As for there being "no wireless only frames, until all 3 makers do what SRAM has appeared to do", there's a wireless frame ready to build right now for a project I have planned that's not for any of the "3 makers", much less all of them... There are these guys that make things called "custom frames" and it's not a big deal to leave off bosses and not punch a few holes...

They could even make a frame ready to take a 1980's Super Record group in the case someone has their mind set on levers that are made for dwarf hands, brakes that work like crap, 46% smaller gearing ratio, poorer shift quality and a nice added chunk of weight.

[oldpotatoe]

You're wrong...

The signal doesn't "actually does something"...

It's just the carrier of a bit of information that tells a mechanism on the other end of the data to do something...

There are tons more data in telemetry than in shifting... And you're still ignoring the distance the data had to travel around a race track versus a few feet on a bike as well as also ignoring the conditions in a car being multiple times more difficult.

As for what questions does it answer, I would guess it's the same as everything else that has lost cords and hardware over time as well as efficiency of operation... That you're logged onto the internet means you have at least a basic grasp of the benefits of electricity.


And yes, you would likely be able to mount a wireless set up to a Colnago from 1980 with a little massaging. Although it would be a bit odd not to have any levers on the down tube and an extra 5 gears would probably confuse the guys who's mind stopped allowing them the ability to acknowledge the benefit of virtually any new product.


As for there being "no wireless only frames, until all 3 makers do what SRAM has appeared to do", there's a wireless frame ready to build right now for a project I have planned that's not for any of the "3 makers", much less all of them... There are these guys that make things called "custom frames" and it's not a big deal to leave off bosses and not punch a few holes...

They could even make a frame ready to take a 1980's Super Record group in the case someone has their mind set on levers that are made for dwarf hands, brakes that work like crap, 46% smaller gearing ratio, poorer shift quality and a nice added chunk of weight.

Charles, you have such a way with words<swoon>....

They are PCs, that's why they are gooned up....if they were Macs...well...

Gonna go ride my 1990 MXLeader that I plumbed for EPS...with Delta brakes and Tubulars.

If ya can't do it with a 5/16 drill, ya can't do it.

[Charles M]

Charles, you have such a way with words<swoon>....

They are PCs, that's why they are gooned up....if they were Macs...well...

Gonna go ride my 1990 MXLeader that I plumbed for EPS...with Delta brakes and Tubulars.

If ya can't do it with a 5/16 drill, ya can't do it.


Firmly agreed.

[shovelhd]

That was one impressive pile of data.

[CunegoFan]

That was one impressive pile of data.

I would hope F1 has moved beyond Windows XP.

[shovelhd]

I would hope F1 has moved beyond Windows XP.

If you only knew what I do these days.