Another carbon clincher thread

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Good opinion piece on BikeRadar:
http://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/article/angryasian-establish-carbon-clincher-test-standards-now-41027/

So far I've kept all my carbon wheels to the tubular variety (and only dabble in clinchers generally). But I know I'm among a minority in my affinity for tubies - at least among the market at large. Seems to me that someone's going to get really hurt when one of these things fails, find out that the wheel maker didn't do the right kind of testing, and sue their pants off. Now, that'll be hard to do if we're talking about an eBay special from China, with little or no US presence. But if I were a manufacturer, I'd be worried that one of the usual product defect-suit defenses (I followed accepted industry standard and protocol for reasonable design safety) just doesn't exist in this instance.

[bcroslin]

I rode my first real descent last week while in NM while mountain biking. My buddy and I got lost and ended up on the road running down Sandia mountain headed towards the ski slope and even though I was on a mountain bike I hit 40+ multiple times on the straights. I was very thankful to have disc brakes and I can't imagine doing something similar on a road bike with carbon clinchers at 50+.

As for standards, good luck getting the importers of chinese carbon wheels to agree to anything having to do with safety when they've got Fred's looking for every advantage on the cheap.

[Black Dog]

I rode my first real descent last week while in NM while mountain biking. My buddy and I got lost and ended up on the road running down Sandia mountain headed towards the ski slope and even though I was on a mountain bike I hit 40+ multiple times on the straights. I was very thankful to have disc brakes and I can't imagine doing something similar on a road bike with carbon clinchers at 50+.

As for standards, good luck getting the importers of chinese carbon wheels to agree to anything having to do with safety when they've got Fred's looking for every advantage on the cheap.

If people choose to buy cheap chinese carbon clinchers they truly have only themselves to blame if the rim fails. It may not fail but if it does they are not going to have a good day. Vanity and cheapness… :no:

[pavel]

If people choose to buy cheap chinese carbon clinchers they truly have only themselves to blame if the rim fails. It may not fail but if it does they are not going to have a good day. Vanity and cheapness… :no:


This seems like a very common misconception, that the _rim_ is going to fail. Restating what should be obvious: in all likelihood, the tube is going to get cooked and someone will flat on a descent because they're riding their brakes long before a rim fails because it's a "cheap chinese rim."

[FastforaSlowGuy]

This seems like a very common misconception, that the _rim_ is going to fail. Restating what should be obvious: in all likelihood, the tube is going to get cooked and someone will flat on a descent because they're riding their brakes long before a rim fails because it's a "cheap chinese rim."

I think these are different issues. Tubes can cook for sure even in the best CCs. But carbon delamination (rim failure) can happen before that. I think early Easton or Reynolds wheels had this problem.


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[flydhest]

Pavel, did you read the article. The rim was the issue at hand.

[dana_e]

best resin out there

actually use alu rims, since zipps are for race day

[poff]

Road disc brakes.

[sailorboy]

Road disc brakes.

actually, learn how to ride your bike, not your brakes.

[poff]

actually, learn how to ride your bike, not your brakes.

Depends where you ride, I have mountains, anything can happen there.

[oldpotatoe]

I think these are different issues. Tubes can cook for sure even in the best CCs. But carbon delamination (rim failure) can happen before that. I think early Easton or Reynolds wheels had this problem.


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Just before I left the shop I warrantied a set of Enve carbon clinchers..both of which had sidewall delam because of the way the lady rode them, used them(drag brakes all the time), and did the above twice...4 wheels. Enve not only knew her by name, but replaced each time..

So, it's not just 'cheap carbon clinchers'..some expensive carbon clinchers also..

[Gummee]

Cheap Fred here:

I built my 'cheap chinese carbon clinchers*' to race on. That way if/when something happens I'm only out $200 instead of $2000.

Since tubulars on the road have pretty well gone the way of the dodo bird, clinchers are it.

M

*at the same time I built my cheap chinese clinchers, I also built 2 pair of cheap chinese tubulars to race CX on. I figured if they lasted a season, I was doing well. Now they're going on season 2 and I figure I'm ahead of the game.

[El Chaba]

carbon...clinchers....hills...brakes....Choose any three.....

[zap]

Pavel, did you read the article. The rim was the issue at hand.

The rim is but tubes may be affected as well…….maybe before any sign of rim failure.

I have no experience with all carbon clinchers (tubulars just make sense for this app) but if carbon clincher rim temperatures approach that of aluminum rims on tandems while braking hard, I suspect (based on my tandeming experience) tubes will deteriorate at a rapid rate then one day, BAAAANNNGGG. I understand that latex tubes are more susceptible to heat cycles as well.

If folks use brakes as a drag brake….well, I imagine that would be even worse.

[oldpotatoe]

actually, learn how to ride your bike, not your brakes.

Well made aluminum rims. Carbon clinchers make no sense unless you are looking for aero.

To change the entire bike to wet discs for a teeny sliver of carbon wheel users...I'll bet most wet disc users will use aluminum rims. But they won't be 'just like Cav!'

And taller, fatter, older...and a hundeth as much, blah, blah

[oldpotatoe]

actually, learn how to ride your bike, not your brakes.

Well made aluminum rims. Carbon clinchers make no sense unless you are looking for aero.

[Shortsocks]

These threads come up every once in while and while I think that you'll find that most people will not disagree when people say ENVE makes a great wheel, they just do, you will always find disagreements with people who buy "Chinese" wheels.

I used to be one of those who thought Chinese wheels were crap and unsafe. And they may have been, but I am now myself a convert. I've put thousands. Thousands of miles on my Chinese wheels. And after riding MANY other wheel brands I really like my Chinese wheels. Did my research, weightweenies has quite a bit of info, and took the plunge. Ridden on 15 mile descents many times, rain, heat....no issue. BUT I have taken very good care of my wheels. Cleaning the brake surface areas often, as well as the pads.

I'm not denying what you get with Envy, Cormia or Lightweight , I point those wheels out because I find them to be very ahead of the market, but you pay for it. And you should. I just don't want to at the moment. :)

[FastforaSlowGuy]

These threads come up every once in while and while I think that you'll find that most people will not disagree when people say ENVE makes a great wheel, they just do, you will always find disagreements with people who buy "Chinese" wheels.

I used to be one of those who thought Chinese wheels were crap and unsafe. And they may have been, but I am now myself a convert. I've put thousands. Thousands of miles on my Chinese wheels. And after riding MANY other wheel brands I really like my Chinese wheels. Did my research, weightweenies has quite a bit of info, and took the plunge. Ridden on 15 mile descents many times, rain, heat....no issue. BUT I have taken very good care of my wheels. Cleaning the brake surface areas often, as well as the pads.

I'm not denying what you get with Envy, Cormia or Lightweight , I point those wheels out because I find them to be very ahead of the market, but you pay for it. And you should. I just don't want to at the moment. :)

I have no doubt that many Chinese label wheels are fine. But I think it's almost indisputable that there is less transparency around those brands' R&D, so it's a marginally bigger risk that favors those who know how to do the right diligence. And IF you ran into a problem and got seriously hurt, you'd have little recourse to the company.


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[Charles M]

The one thing I wish would have been in the article was / is mention of a couple of brands that are doing it right... The ability is there.


As for knock off level Asian product... You can have it.

[Shortsocks]

I have no doubt that many Chinese label wheels are fine. But I think it's almost indisputable that there is less transparency around those brands' R&D, so it's a marginally bigger risk that favors those who know how to do the right diligence. And IF you ran into a problem and got seriously hurt, you'd have little recourse to the company.


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Oh no. I agree with you 100%. That's the biggest problem with Chinese wheels.
The particular brand I bought has very good reviews and outstanding warranty for a Chinese company. But any person who just buys any Chinese wheels with out research is a moron. And needs to get his head examined. Because he deserves what happens to him...well not deserve...but you know. :)

[bluesea]

The one thing I wish would have been in the article was / is mention of a couple of brands that are doing it right... The ability is there.



That was my first impression after reading the article, and thought his solution simplistic. Do we really need or want industry test standards, and the probable costs passed on the consumers?

[Charles M]

I do...

I think he's dead on in calling it out. There continue to be issues for a lot of companies and if you've ever been around anyone that has a blow off at speed, it's a real 5hit-your-pants moment... Loud BOOM and a body goes flying.


I think a temp and pressure standard would be great for the industry.


My point was simply that a couple of people have a good rim. But it's not the majority for sure...

[rustychisel]

I do...

if you've ever been around anyone that has a blow off at speed, it's a real 5hit-your-pants moment... Loud BOOM and a body goes flying.


...


I promise you, it's a lot more interesting if it's you.

[El Chaba]

[QUOTE=Charles M;1548574] There continue to be issues for a lot of companies and if you've ever been around anyone that has a blow off at speed, it's a real 5hit-your-pants moment... Loud BOOM and a body goes flying.


QUOTE]

...It is EXACTLY at that moment that the *INCREDIBLE* aerodynamic advantage of the carbon wheels and the simplicity in care and feeding of clinchers are no longer appreciated.....