Almost creamed by a school bus

[DerekB]

I was passed today within 1 foot on a curve with oncoming traffic by a school bus this morning. No room on the side; only trees. If I didn't tuck in my elbows he would have hit me. I caught him at the next light and spoke to him. Rather angrily. Maybe some swear words. The bus was empty.
I called the school district and reported the bus number and location. Interestingly the first question they asked was "Were there children on the bus?" Perhaps wondering if there were witnesses? My riding buddy was right behind me; not positive how close. But close enough to hear and see me.
I asked the transportation department to call me back after they talk to the driver. They took my name and number and said they would call if there were any questions.
I am still considering filing a police report. Don't really want to take the time and aggravation.

What do you all think?

[Tom]

Not to your incident but I have been surprised by school bus drivers more than once, assuming incorrectly that they were reasonably careful drivers. One of the first rides out this year a guy driving a 72 passenger school bus took a left turn on to a narrow country road right as I passed, and those things take the whole road especially when the fog line is painted on the gravel next to the road. I had to kick it so I didn't skip off his fender.

Another time a couple of years ago one pulled out to pass a stopped truck with oncoming traffic coming - me and the car tailing me close. I heard the car lock up as I went through the only place I could - causing Karen, when I told her about it, to tell me never to use the term "threading the needle" in the cycling context ever again. If the car hadn't stopped hard they'd probably have hit the bus head on.

[Ahneida Ride]

I am so glad you are fine ....

Please ride with a rear red light ...

take care !

[tmf]

I'm glad you made it through that OK. Filing a report may not result in anything, but it could possibly look into whether this driver has any other issues on their record and encourage them to be more aware in the future. Let us know what you hear from the school district.

Two weeks ago, a local cyclist was hit and killed by a school bus (http://fox59.com/2014/05/04/remembering-an-indianapolis-man-through-his-life-of-cycling/#axzz312ObG789). I believe he was on his morning commute.

[bargainguy]

I think this is one of those situations where an apology by the bus driver would have nipped this one. All in hindsight, of course, but this is the way I like to deal with drivers of any vehicle that almost hits me and I catch up:

"Excuse me, did you know you almost hit me back there?"

...then wait for a reaction. The reaction - assuming there is one - tells you which way to go next.

Most people are not malicious and will apologize if they realize they're in the wrong. But some people will deny vociferously and you get the idea that they know what they did was wrong but are reacting defensively out of ego or whatever. That's the kind of person I would want held accountable without an apology.

[benitosan1972]

Most schoolbus drivers around here are slightly crazy/something odd/off about them. That's a generalization and it's true. While it may be difficult to drive a schoolbus even unloaded (i'd 100x that packed with screaming kids), I notice their driving to be in general: aggressive, dangerous, slightly reckless. I try not to ride during schoolbus commute hours or even near schools if I have to.

[dekindy]

What would you be reporting? Is there a 3-foot law in your jurisdiction?

A commuter in Indianapolis was killed recently by a school bus that turned left in front of him. This was a T-intersection and there were no witnesses so no fault was established.

School bus mishaps are obviously more publicized but it seems they have an accident rate much higher in proportion to their presence on the road. And it seems to be accidents that are not unique to their school functions. You would think with their visibility they would be a lot less accident prone. And also the special treatment they get, police directing traffic morning and evening at schools, etc. Anybody seen any statistics?

[snah]

What would you be reporting? Is there a 3-foot law in your jurisdiction?

A commuter in Indianapolis was killed recently by a school bus that turned left in front of him. This was a T-intersection and there were no witnesses so no fault was established.

School bus mishaps are obviously more publicized but it seems they have an accident rate much higher in proportion to their presence on the road. And it seems to be accidents that are not unique to their school functions. You would think with their visibility they would be a lot less accident prone. And also the special treatment they get, police directing traffic morning and evening at schools, etc. Anybody seen any statistics?

Adding to this, had a motorcyclist killed here yesterday in an accident with a school bus, no kids this time either. Don't have any specifics but 2 "cyclists" killed in less than a month from school bus related accidents.

[Mr. Pink]

A buddy of mine just worked for a few years as a school bus driver after getting laid off. He told us that the slightest incident would result in an immediate drug test (he was tested randomly, too) and an investigation. This is in an affluent town in NY, but, I hear it's the same in a lot of places. So, I'm guessing that your report will be taken seriously, and put on a record. But, unless you were struck and hurt, no immediate action can be taken.

[merlinmurph]

I think this is one of those situations where an apology by the bus driver would have nipped this one. All in hindsight, of course, but this is the way I like to deal with drivers of any vehicle that almost hits me and I catch up:

"Excuse me, did you know you almost hit me back there?"

...then wait for a reaction. The reaction - assuming there is one - tells you which way to go next.

Most people are not malicious and will apologize if they realize they're in the wrong. But some people will deny vociferously and you get the idea that they know what they did was wrong but are reacting defensively out of ego or whatever. That's the kind of person I would want held accountable without an apology.

Exactly, took the words out of my mouth. The reaction is key. I've had people apologize profusely and with sincerity, and I accepted their apology. Others,.....

[DerekB]

Thanks all. PA has a 4 foot passing law for cyclists. The bus was about a foot away. He also passed with oncoming traffic on a slight curve with no shoulder.

My buddy right behind me had a blinking red light. I'm sure we were visible; I had no light but a good bit of yellow on my shorts and jersey sleeves.

Our school district is the wealthiest in the state. I certainly hope they will take it seriously. My son will be riding the bus for possibly four more years (he is finishing 8th grade now).

I am almost more concerned about this driver driving children on a bus than the fact that I was almost hit.

[verticaldoug]

I called the school district and reported the bus number and location. Interestingly the first question they asked was "Were there children on the bus?" Perhaps wondering if there were witnesses?
What do you all think?

They asked about the children not for witnesses, but out of concern for their welfare.

Being caught along side of a bus or long truck on a curve is always scary as geometry tends to kick in at the apex and the driver tends to fall in.

The driver should have apologized and put this to rest. However, angrily confronting the bus driver at the next light with swear words probably put the driver into defensive mode. I think filing a police report is over the top and a little too much drama queen to be honest.

[dekindy]

I don't care how sorry I am, if someone starts yelling and swearing at me in anger, I am more worried about my own safety than sticking around to apologize.

Could you have ridden defensively and avoided the situation?

[firerescuefin]

I would have been pissed.

I probably would have reacted. Not right or wrong….just honest.

If filing a report documents his behavior and hopefully opens his eyes and modifies said behavior, then it's hardly "drama queen" and it may save someone else from being struck by the same guy. Additionally it may lead to the district addressing all of their drivers about sharing the road with cyclists.

[Mike Lopez]

In our area, San Diego, I'm much more afraid of the private vehicles schlepping their kids to and from school. It seems the folks are always running late and are in a rush to get to work or ? and in many cases have a cell phone in one hand and Starphucks in the other. I don't even want to drive a car near them during these "witching hours" much less ride a bike. Unfortunately there's 3 schools near my house so this is problematic.

At least with a bus there's a better ratio of kids per vehicle so that takes many SUVs & mini vans out of the equation. They're also bright & noisy so they're easier to identify as potential hazards than the crazies in private vehicles.

[Lewis Moon]

In our area, San Diego, I'm much more afraid of the private vehicles schlepping their kids to and from school. It seems the folks are always running late and are in a rush to get to work or ? and in many cases have a cell phone in one hand and Starphucks in the other. I don't even want to drive a car near them during these "witching hours" much less ride a bike. Unfortunately there's 3 schools near my house so this is problematic.

At least with a bus there's a better ratio of kids per vehicle so that takes many SUVs & mini vans out of the equation. They're also bright & noisy so they're easier to identify as potential hazards than the crazies in private vehicles.

Some of the worst driving I have ever seen has been in the pick up/drop off zones for schools. Oh. My. God.

[Admiral Ackbar]

I've been hit my school bus pulling out of a local high school, not badly, just pushed into the snowbank and ice at the side of the road with the rear quarter. thankfully i wasn't in front of the rear wheels at the time of impact...and they didn't even stop, i guess they didn't notice me in bright red kit contrasting against a snowbank while driving straight towards me? contacted the school and they had a total ····fit "are you okay?" "is your bike okay?" "are you sure you're okay?" "ARE YOU SURE??" gave em my info and they said they'd be in touch to discuss the matter....yeah that never happened.

in retrospect i probably should have gotten the police involved considering it was actually a hit and run. but I'm okay and so is my bike couldnt be bothered really

then about a week later i was almost steamrolled by a bus from the same district crossing the centerline around a blind curve, probably the closest I've been to death... couldn't help but think it was probably the same driver. probably should have contacted the school or about that one too

needless to say i now avoid everywhere i think i may encounter a school bus

[jimdohertyjim]

Lower Merion school district?

[Tony]

Some of the worst driving I have ever seen has been in the pick up/drop off zones for schools. Oh. My. God.

+1 Some of the worst!

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . multiple times after observing their drivers doing unwise/stupid/illegal things, from speeding to running a red light to simply sitting at the side of the road gabbing with another driver with their red lights turned on, not a kid in sight.

I might not file a police report, but I'd certainly call the bus company and report the incident, get name of person you talk to and request a follow-up from them--then call them back if they don't

If nobody ever reports such incidents, then there is no record established to really do anything about a driver when they actually hit you the next time.

BBD

[Ahneida Ride]

http://archive.lohud.com/article/20120324/NEWS03/303240063/40-years-like-1-day-survivors-Rockland-train-school-bus-crash-killed-5-rewrote-safety-laws

This happened 40 years ago and I remember the incident well.

CONGERS NY — Irene Ferrara still recalls the bright headlight of the freight train rushing toward her moments before it hit the school bus she was riding that crisp, sunny morning 40 years ago.

The crash killed five teens and injured dozens of others who were on their way to Nyack High School. The impact severed the bus in half, wrapping the front section like a horse shoe onto the front of the train. The train lurched a quarter mile, dragging children beneath its wheels before it came to a stop.

“I heard kids in the front yell to the driver, ‘Stop, the train is coming!’” said Ferrara, who was then a 16-year-old sophomore. “My instinct was to get out of the way but there was no time ... I saw the light of the train become bigger and bigger. I also remember the whistle blowing. He kept the whistle blowing constantly until impact.”

The crash on Gilchrest Road in Congers was the worst school bus accident in New York history and has been seared in the memory of Rockland. It led to a half-dozen bus safety laws, mandatory bus driver training programs were implemented and some of the most stringent school bus construction specifications were created.

Survivors later said Joseph Larkin, a New York City firefighter moonlighting as a bus driver, was trying to beat the train. He was late that morning and unable to follow the regular route because of sewer repair work.

See link above for full story ....

[dpk501]

I'm just glad you were able to avoid catastrophe.

I think that's the biggest victory.

I'm not defending the driver but when I think back to every bike accident I've had that was a driver's fault I always think about how I drive.

As diligent and attentive as I am, I've made mistakes driving. Not seeing a pedestrian till the last minute, being occasionally distracted. You feel that adrenaline rush and a bit of shock, sometimes not being able to react right away with an apology because your body and brain aren't in sync. We've all been there. Each experience like that makes me more cautious but I know I'll never be perfect.

Forgive and move on is my motto these days.

[ultraman6970]

Bus drivers arent professional truck drivers, basically the bus is a u-haul truck that anybody with a driver license can drive, so doesnt surprise me that they screw up aswell. They are used to the usual respect from anybody else so situations like what the OP is saying doesnt surprise me at all.

I was you and if you got the bus number, just call the school transportation department and let them know about it, and advice them to do some feedback with the drivers so it doesnt happens again. Between you and me stuff like that is that the driver is not being carefull, not funny to have an accident with a 5 tons school bus.

[veloduffer]

Coming from NYC where transit buses are the biggest nemesis to cyclists, I am always wary of buses. They have huge blind spots and are used to others yielding in their path ("he who has the most tonnage wins"). Plus cars can't see you behind a bus and if you make a move around it, there might be a car in your path. Best to back off and let the bus go away. Glad to hear you came away safe.

[paredown]

Some of the worst driving I have ever seen has been in the pick up/drop off zones for schools. Oh. My. God.

Word.

I used to go by some school on the the way back from Prospect Park--it was hair-raising, even by NY standards....

[paredown]

http://archive.lohud.com/article/20120324/NEWS03/303240063/40-years-like-1-day-survivors-Rockland-train-school-bus-crash-killed-5-rewrote-safety-laws

This happened 40 years ago and I remember the incident well.

CONGERS NY — Irene Ferrara still recalls the bright headlight of the freight train rushing toward her moments before it hit the school bus she was riding that crisp, sunny morning 40 years ago.

The crash killed five teens and injured dozens of others who were on their way to Nyack High School. The impact severed the bus in half, wrapping the front section like a horse shoe onto the front of the train. The train lurched a quarter mile, dragging children beneath its wheels before it came to a stop.

“I heard kids in the front yell to the driver, ‘Stop, the train is coming!’” said Ferrara, who was then a 16-year-old sophomore. “My instinct was to get out of the way but there was no time ... I saw the light of the train become bigger and bigger. I also remember the whistle blowing. He kept the whistle blowing constantly until impact.”

The crash on Gilchrest Road in Congers was the worst school bus accident in New York history and has been seared in the memory of Rockland. It led to a half-dozen bus safety laws, mandatory bus driver training programs were implemented and some of the most stringent school bus construction specifications were created.

Survivors later said Joseph Larkin, a New York City firefighter moonlighting as a bus driver, was trying to beat the train. He was late that morning and unable to follow the regular route because of sewer repair work.

See link above for full story ....
Holy carp--that accident happened just a few miles from where we live--

Poor kids.

[Tony T]

("he who has the most tonnage wins").

Also "He who has the most lug nuts wins"

[john903]

So yes, I am a school Bus driver and also the driver trainer for our school district for the past nine years. First I would like to say you did the right thing by contacting the school district I would recommend a follow up as well. Granted there are drivers out there who make mistakes, but by and large we are Professional drivers with a with a CDL B. We are very aware that we drive a 26,000 pound, 40 foot long vehicle filled with everyone's precious children, they are not cargo and we don't drive a u-haul. Yes you would think with 7 to 9 mirrors and all thoughs windows we would have great visibility, we don't that is why we think of a 10' danger zone around the bus and 200' in the back. I certainly agree that anywhere around a school at dismissal time is scary. As a driver we see a lot of distracted parents oblivious to a big yellow bus with flashing lights all over it. Yes I am a bit defensive but when a driver comes to me as a bike rider and says"how come those bike riders never stop at stop signs." then what do I say well not all bike riders are like that. I had a bike rider routinely run through my stop paddle while loading kids. I finally was able to talk to him one day and explained all vehicles including bicycles have to stop for the bus.
As many of you have pointed out please exercise caution around a school bus knowing we may not see you. If there is a problem definitely talk to the school district transportation supervisor. Believe me if this was reported at my district we would be having some extra training, actually this brings up a great point maybe I will incorporate the use of my bike in our mirror/ blind spot class. Oh if anyone wants to contact me via PM I will gladly talk to you about this topic I am just as passionate about my job as I am about riding my bike
Have a great day.
John

[Anarchist]

Thanks all. PA has a 4 foot passing law for cyclists. The bus was about a foot away. He also passed with oncoming traffic on a slight curve with no shoulder.

My buddy right behind me had a blinking red light. I'm sure we were visible; I had no light but a good bit of yellow on my shorts and jersey sleeves.

Our school district is the wealthiest in the state. I certainly hope they will take it seriously. My son will be riding the bus for possibly four more years (he is finishing 8th grade now).

I am almost more concerned about this driver driving children on a bus than the fact that I was almost hit.

I have come to the conclusion that the most dangerous places to be on the road are those where there is a right hand corner with a bike lane. Motorists - whether dump truck drivers, school bus drivers or soccer moms) all treat that extra piece of road in the corner as their own personal chance to prove they are better than Mario Andretti.. It is no accident that almost all of those corners/curves around here have the white lines worn off.

[shovelhd]

You definitely need a CDL to drive a school bus here in MA. I've had nothing but good experiences with school buses on the road. They will hang back to pass safely. In return I always stop for them. You get to recognize the drivers and they recognize you. Now the public transportation buses are another thing altogether. Some are great and some are total jack holes.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Thanks so much for your input in this thread. It's appreciated.

BBD

So yes, I am a school Bus driver and also the driver trainer for our school district for the past nine years. First I would like to say you did the right thing by contacting the school district I would recommend a follow up as well. Granted there are drivers out there who make mistakes, but by and large we are Professional drivers with a with a CDL B. We are very aware that we drive a 26,000 pound, 40 foot long vehicle filled with everyone's precious children, they are not cargo and we don't drive a u-haul. Yes you would think with 7 to 9 mirrors and all thoughs windows we would have great visibility, we don't that is why we think of a 10' danger zone around the bus and 200' in the back. I certainly agree that anywhere around a school at dismissal time is scary. As a driver we see a lot of distracted parents oblivious to a big yellow bus with flashing lights all over it. Yes I am a bit defensive but when a driver comes to me as a bike rider and says"how come those bike riders never stop at stop signs." then what do I say well not all bike riders are like that. I had a bike rider routinely run through my stop paddle while loading kids. I finally was able to talk to him one day and explained all vehicles including bicycles have to stop for the bus.
As many of you have pointed out please exercise caution around a school bus knowing we may not see you. If there is a problem definitely talk to the school district transportation supervisor. Believe me if this was reported at my district we would be having some extra training, actually this brings up a great point maybe I will incorporate the use of my bike in our mirror/ blind spot class. Oh if anyone wants to contact me via PM I will gladly talk to you about this topic I am just as passionate about my job as I am about riding my bike
Have a great day.
John

[dustyrider]

I've been beaten up by a skool bus before, too!
Well, I guess the OP was about a passing too close issue.
Where I ride people call passing too close a sport. Don't get me wrong. I feel for those who get buzzed; it's happened to me a lot.
I just can't stop and make worthless calls(believe me I've made a lot of calls, I can remember images in my mind pretty well), or I wouldn't ever have a chance to ride.

For instance, Sunday's ride closed with a blue crown vic, out of state plates, tinted windows. I hear a loud yelling, don't think much, just hug the shoulder and keep mashing into the head wind. As the car passes, as close as they possibly can on purpose, I look up to see what I think is a revolver aimed back at me. I hear a shot, but it's only a cap gun sound. I rationalized it at the moment as a youngster having a good time. Then I spent the remaining 5 miles planning a 4g streaming 360 degree wide angle camera lens that could be integrated into a bicycle helmet... four go pros would be in the mail if I lived in Russia.

Anyways, my bus story...I was riding along hugging a curb. I looked back to see two buses coming up behind me. One in the center lane turning left, the other passing me on my left just close enough to hit me with the mirror.

Time slowed, at first it was an oddity. I was wondering what could be hitting my upper shoulder hard enough to move me to the right, dangerously close to the curb, yet have enough give for me to fight against it. I looked left to see an elderly gentleman, bright safety vest and all, driving along without a care in the world.

I began beating furiously on the mirrors, by the door, with my gloved left fist. Of course their design prevented any real damage. While I am counter-steering into the bus with my right, partly hoping a human face at eye level might catch this man's attention, mostly to avoid the curb, I saw what must have been the same look of wonder I had on the bus driver's face; it was quickly erased with contempt(assumption).

He floored it and ran a questionable yellow/red light to avoid me fully catching up. I was in full pursuit mode once the mirrors were out of reach, yet he was clever. He floated ever so slightly to the right, and I was forced to brake hard. Fortunately I was on my commuter/tourer which is the definition of a lead sled cause I wasn't mentally stable enough to deal with an encounter. I got the relevant numbers and know the exact numbers to call(teacher), but having made too many of these calls and knowing, in my experience, nothing seems to happen I let it go.

In the end I'm glad you're ok; keep up the good fight. I hope you find some closure. Unless a police officer is a witness, and even then it's 50/50, I've never found any...

[DerekB]

Yes Lower Merion. Bus #62 if you live in the area look for it.

Thank you very much John for chiming in. Thanks to your input I will follow up tomorrow with a call back.

I did not have any where to go but into the trees or the bus. The bus came up behind my buddy with the flashing red light then while passing me came very close to me to avoid the oncoming traffic.

I "reviewed" the conversation in my head after posting. The driver did not open the door so I did talk loudly. I only swore after not hearing his initial replies then hearing him say "Well, gotta go".

I was upset. This is the closest encounter I have had in a long time.

[unterhausen]

my experience with bus drivers in this area is that they are not professionals. Far from it, to be perfectly honest. And I think this area has some of the better bus drivers I've seen. If I'm riding in a substandard lane and there is oncoming traffic, I will go farther out into the lane -- far enough out that even the most weak-minded can tell they can't pass. If you give them the room they get when you aren't there, they will treat you like you aren't there. Obviously, I try to avoid situations like that through road choice, but it's not always possible.

[cnighbor1]

buses
In all my riding when I am near a bus I try very hard to avoid getting near it
not sure why but they sure pass close and seem to be focused on getting from one bus stop to the next bus stop And bicycle riders are sure low on their worry list
that includes Detroit, Seattle California bay area, etc
Charles

[JLP]

Interesting you bring this up now. In the last week, we've had two incidents of insanely aggressive brush backs from school busses in the Seattle suburbs. With kids on the bus.

[cetuximab]

In a former life, I drove a school bus.
To drive a school bus in Idaho requires a CDL with passenger endorsement. I also had air brake endorsement.
I have a small sample size. All the school buses been close to while bike commuting has been respectful and gave me plenty of space. Drivers in small towns in the inter-mountain west are good people.

[redir]

I used to pass 3 schools on my way to work. It was the worst. I've almost been creamed a number of times and I'd swear there was one driver out to get me as he was always the one to pass real close. Fortunately the road was straight there.

You need to take the lane. That way the driver is forced to slow down.

[john903]

So a couple people have had some good questions and as a school bus driver trainer I would like to shed some light on one. As a disclaimer this in no way an excuses for the driver in the OP for his actions that driver appears to not have been paying full attention to his/her driving. Anyway the question was asked how come they get so close to the curb. It is about the nature of the bus and how it drives so lane placement is important. My bus is 8' wide and traffic lane is 10' wide. In a transit style bus my steering wheels are 6' behind me and my pivot point is at the duels 30' back. So I approach an intersection as I move forward the middle of my entry door lines up perpendicular with the curb or just past the apex of the curb I start to turn my wheels 100% just before my front wheels pass that curb line. This keeps my nose out of the oncoming lane of traffic and the rear duels about 3" to 6" off the curb you don't want to rub the curb it really damages the tires. This method works good in city traffic making a nice tight 90deg turn, yes the front does go into the opposing lane at times, but that is where driver awareness "should " come into play and time his /her turn appropriately. I hope this helps explain why we get close to the curb. Basically it is so we can make a safe turn based on the nature of the bus. This is so much easier to demonstrate then explain I hope it makes sense.
Have a great day.