Would you buy a cross bike with cantis?

[dhalbrook]

Hi all,

I'm recently getting back into racing after a 20 year hiatus and need a cross bike for this season. I'll probably be doing around 10 races/season, tops. One of my team members is offering a 1 yr old Giant TCX 1 w/Stans wheels for $950. It's in great shape and seems like a good deal for a ready-to-race bike.

My biggest concern is whether or not it makes sense to buy a canti-based bike now that discs are legal. I'm not concerned about stopping power since the TCX has some nice mini-Vs on it (upgraded from stock), but more about how much the cost of replacing wheelsets every 1-2 years will be, as well as potential resale of the bike longer term.

So, if you were getting back into CX, would you spend that money for a competitive used canti bike or save up for a disc bike?

Thanks for any feedback.

[tuscanyswe]

I would, infact i just recently did. If my budget were huge id consider going discs in the future but may buy cantis even then. Bikes on the cheaper side today weighs a ton with discs. No fun!

[rnhood]

Discs or bust for me. Its the only way to go imho.

[don'TreadOnMe]

Yes, cantis all the way.

[rwsaunders]

I have a CX capable bike with canti's and if I were going for a new machine, it would have discs, fender tabs and bottle bosses, because you never know what you will do with it down the road.

[josephr]

can always switch out the fork and go with a mullet set-up....plus side is now that folks are switching to disc, you've got a little more bargaining power with folks off-loading their canti bikes....its almost like when folks moved to 29ers....hard to sell off a 26er.
Joe

[4Rings6Stars]

I have cross bikes with both...and I love them just the same. If you are worried about eventual re-sale...I would not buy a Giant in the first place. Get a used high end / custom frame as they hold their value much more than run of the mill big name bikes.

I've had lots of high end steel and ti frames that I was able to buy, ride for a while and then for the same price I paid. Never had that experience with a Trek or Specialized... The cash outlay might be a little greater in the beginning, but they depreciate MUCH less.

All that aside...if you are racing and will be thrashing the thing, it might be good to get a disposable bike like the Giant and just ride the thing and don't worry about potential re-sale.

[TheEnglish]

I have canti's on my CX bike and I have never lost a CX race due to brakes (and I live in the muddy northwest). In my opinion, CX is all about fun, so ride whatever you get your hands on and enjoy it. Besides if you get a bike with canti's, you have more trash talkin' ammunition. The other thing that I have heard is in tough conditions you can wear through a set of pads in less than a race (really cold and super muddy).

Spend your money on good tires for better cornering.

[zachateseveryth]

Canti's work just fine for CX racing. If I was doing a lot of ultra-cx stuff I'd think about a disc setup but for most american style cx courses you don't even really need brakes.

[pdmtong]

Unless you are prepared ot spend more for discs NOW, I wouldnt sweat it. That $950 bike you sell on CL for $600 in a few years. its not a lot of money in or out.

unless you are vying for the podium in the A's the discs or not disc is not going to determine whether you win or lose the race.

I am a proponent of discs for both road and CX in given circumstances. But at the money you are talking I just wouldnt worry about it.

[dhalbrook]

Thx for the feedback everyone. As I said, the discs wouldn't be about braking but about wheel longevity. This bike would be purely a race bike, nothing else. Don't care for commuting on CX geometry and I already have a rain bike for that.

[RedRider]

Canti brakes are great. Disks just do it better.
I'd be more concerned about the Satan's wheels...

[TheEnglish]

Sorry missed the wheel longevity question, if you are just racing with the bike, the wheels should last a really long time. I have ridden 2 seasons on my wheels and there is no perceptable wear. As long as you clean your bike throughout the season, which if you live in a muddy area, you will need to do anyways, wheel wear shouldn't factor into the decision.

[redir]

My next cross bike will be disk. ;)

[Ken Robb]

what is the weight difference between a disc set-up and cantis? Do mechanical disc brakes work well enough or do you need hydraulics for the best performance?

[eBAUMANN]

what is the weight difference between a disc set-up and cantis? Do mechanical disc brakes work well enough or do you need hydraulics for the best performance?

pretty significant…actually, and most mechanical systems are actually lighter than their hydro counterparts (at least for SRAM stuff).

not only would i buy a canti cx bike, i did, a custom one at that! i would however recommend a tapered steerer fork, they make a big difference in just about every way you can imagine.

[Lewis Moon]

pretty significant…actually, and most mechanical systems are actually lighter than their hydro counterparts (at least for SRAM stuff).

not only would i buy a canti cx bike, i did, a custom one at that! i would however recommend a tapered steerer fork, they make a big difference in just about every way you can imagine.

Question: have they figured out how to keep the pads from eating themselves in REALLY ugly conditions? I seem to remember a race last year where a bunch of the disco kids had their pads go away big time. I thought a solid (heavier) disc was the trick.

[eBAUMANN]

Question: have they figured out how to keep the pads from eating themselves in REALLY ugly conditions? I seem to remember a race last year where a bunch of the disco kids had their pads go away big time. I thought a solid (heavier) disc was the trick.

Im really not sure…maybe? I think my biggest issue with discs is the "hidden" nature of the pads…its really not so easy to keep an eye on wear.

So, imagine this scenario:

Your bike is braking fine the day before a race, but in reality you only have 1/4-1/2 pad remaining…then conditions the next day are wet/slick/muddy…say goodbye to whatever remains of your pads and with it, your braking.

The pads just seem to wear SO FAST in particular conditions with fine/watery mud/dirt involved…and unless they are hydro (and self adjusting) you will inevitably end up wearing them down to a point where you notice significantly decreased brake performance, if any at all.

Personally, its a trade off I am not willing to make in a race scenario.

Outside of a race setting…the same could happen if you head out on a "dirt road" / "adventure" / "gravel grind" only to have things turn a bit wet. Sure, not as much dirt gets onto the rotors/pads as with a canti system, but there is also a lot more pad to wear down on a canti brake…not so much with disc calipers.

Not to mention the noise…get anything on those rotors and they start singing/screaming/screeching. Its pretty awful.

Just my 2c.

[Lewis Moon]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/news/bright-future-for-disc-brakes-fades-briefly-under-a-coating-of-verona-mud_271112

[blantonator]

i'd rather save the 2lbs and run canti's.

[oldpotatoe]

Hi all,

I'm recently getting back into racing after a 20 year hiatus and need a cross bike for this season. I'll probably be doing around 10 races/season, tops. One of my team members is offering a 1 yr old Giant TCX 1 w/Stans wheels for $950. It's in great shape and seems like a good deal for a ready-to-race bike.

My biggest concern is whether or not it makes sense to buy a canti-based bike now that discs are legal. I'm not concerned about stopping power since the TCX has some nice mini-Vs on it (upgraded from stock), but more about how much the cost of replacing wheelsets every 1-2 years will be, as well as potential resale of the bike longer term.

So, if you were getting back into CX, would you spend that money for a competitive used canti bike or save up for a disc bike?

Thanks for any feedback.

Look at the majority of pros in Europe, vast majority are cantis.

Lighter, simplier, cheaper.

[hida yanra]

I'm with Ebaum- I just got a used canti-based bike, and I fully intend to race the snot out of it.

Discs are certainly superior in most ways, but price isn't one of them (weight and ease of maintence being the others)

I'd go with Mini-Vs, and will probably switch at some point in the fall, but cantis work fine. FWIW, I live in the PacNW, and we have maybe... two non-muddy races a year? Sure, discs would be nice, but the difference in price between a capable disc bike and a capable canti bike is my total race fees over the next two years.

Tapered forks are nice, but not really a "need" I wouldn't say.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm with Ebaum- I just got a used canti-based bike, and I fully intend to race the snot out of it.

Discs are certainly superior in most ways, but price isn't one of them (weight and ease of maintence being the others)

I'd go with Mini-Vs, and will probably switch at some point in the fall, but cantis work fine. FWIW, I live in the PacNW, and we have maybe... two non-muddy races a year? Sure, discs would be nice, but the difference in price between a capable disc bike and a capable canti bike is my total race fees over the next two years.

Tapered forks are nice, but not really a "need" I wouldn't say.

Yep, the marketeers will try to convince you that ya gotta have wet disc, electronic shifting, tapered fork, through axles and tubeless or ya might as well just stay home and do sock darning.

[dhalbrook]

Cool, thanks for the perspectives. FWIW, I'm in the muddy NW as well (Portland).

I contacted the seller to have a better look at the Giant. Should make a fine race bike, and as another poster said, I'm not in too deep cash wise. As long as it gets me through 5 or so years of racing I'll be more than happy.

[eBAUMANN]

Tapered forks DO make a difference with fork chatter under braking, they just DO, this is not something worth arguing haha.

That said, if I were running a straight fork, I would likely stick a mini-v in the front, if not in the rear as well, as it would cut out the chatter entirely.

Also, if you are racing, the most valuable thing you can have is a set (or 2, or 3) of TUBULAR wheels/tires. This is much easier to achieve by tapping into the ENORMOUS amount of used rim-brake wheels out there…used tubular disc wheels…not as plentiful.

So basically, you are lookin at spending significantly more money going disc and getting better braking out of it (but also the chance of complete failure), but not much else.

Did anyone mention that racing is about going fast? Brakes only slow you down! ;)

[Zoodles]

After 5 years of racing what's left in a cross bike, that thing should be beat!

I would go with the affordable canti bike every day of the week, lower upfront cost, easier and cheaper maintenance and lighter. I also believe wheels will be available beyond the life of that frame.

Lastly, the bike makes little difference, I often race a tiagra equipped bike that is my fender and trailer bike through the week - although the trailer holds me back the bike never has.

[djg]

Yes. Cantis is what I have, and if I were to buy a new cross bike I'd likely do the same.

I'm not saying that I'd never ever consider discs -- just that cantilever brakes, properly set up, and with good pads, work fine, and are light and easy to maintain. Cat 4s, Cat 2s, and pros -- plenty of success at whatever level with canti brakes. With a used bike -- if it fits, and you like it, and the price is right, I don't see a problem.

I don't know the Giant model, but with a used bike, sub-1K, what's the issue exactly? How many sets of race wheels do you think you'll burn through?

[bcroslin]

Run TRP RevoX canti's and you'll be fine. Disc brakes are nice but you don't need them for CX.

Definitely DO NOT run tubeless with the Stans. I'm sold on tubeless for road and mtb but had issues racing CX with tubeless. Tubular or clinchers are the way to go.

[thirdgenbird]

I would prefer canti brakes.

I've got three bikes with 130mm spacing and rim brakes, why not keep the wheel sharing going.

I set up some Campagnolo cantilevers for gomango. I only got a short test ride in,but they were quiet and performed well.

[Cat3roadracer]

We actually had this exact conversation in the office today. My opinion - I have both. Geared Moots with TRP cantis and a steel single speed cross bike with mechanical discs. 2012 the first two cross races were extremely muddy. The canti bike worked fine, toward the end of the second race the disc bike didn't stop at all. Required a complete disassemble, flush, rebuild to restore braking power.

I have hydro discs on a mountain bike that I absolutely love. I don't think the mechanical discs measure up.

A long winded support of canti brakes.

[CheshireCat]

The TRP CX9 V brakes work better than my disc brakes. I ride the disc bikes on adventures, but racing still always happens on the canti bike.

[11.4]

Um, late to the party, but I just bought a nice cross bike (to be matched with a race companion once I work out the bugs) and got discs, so here are some of the considerations:

Overall, the choice of canti versus disc is one of the more minor evolutions underway on your cross bike.

First, there's electronics -- if you want the future of discs available to you, you do want the future of electronics, right?

Second, there's through-axles. If you go with discs, you are probably going to want through-axles, if not now then at least within a couple years. Once you've had them, you wonder why you ever put up with quick release skewers -- it's like antique Campy shifters actuated by a lever on your seat tube or seat stay.

Third, there's disc brake mounting. One of the issues the manufacturers are trying to figure out is how to make the damned things reasonably aero. It's not an overwhelming matter for cross, but cross is going to follow what road does, and for road, a more aerodynamic disc design is going to be coming. That means more aero calipers and a much more aero mounting. So you'll be about as passé as a threaded one-inch fork anyway, even if you go to discs at this point. I can imagine brake calipers mounted flush against a chain stay or underneath a chain stay, or whatever. Whatever happens, it's going to happen.

Fourth, levers are going to keep evolving, especially if you aren't riding Shimano and watch the rest of the manufacturers trying to figure out how to get cylinders into their brifter levers without a huge abortion like the SRAMs. Whatever happens, evolving the levers for disc brakes will drive more adoption of electronic shifting, because electronics empty out the brake lever for braking mechanisms and also reduce weight.

Fifth, wireless is coming to shifting anyway in a few years, and who knows when electronic transmission of braking signals (it's called fly by wire in the rest of the transportation industry) will come along and eliminate the weight of hydraulics, hydraulic levers, hydraulic housing. I'm betting that electronically controlled brakes will be how the weight really gets down to competitive levels.

Sixth, everyone needs dimensional standards. You listen to the pro mechanics bitching about how no two wheels fit into a disc-equipped bike the same way, and you know you have a big problem.

Seventh, disc brakes aren't going to work for cross when they're all 160 or 180 mm for cooling or power. They bend too easily, they stick out and cut riders and mechanics (or burn them), and they make it marginally harder to get an aerodynamic design. So if we're aiming at 140 mm rotors, we're going to need better cooling designs. Cross bikes can use 140 mm and not overheat because you don't use the brakes too much anyway (side question: so why get a cross bike with discs anyway, then?), but again, cross bikes are going to adopt whatever road bikes use, and for road bikes these are going to be big issues.

Eighth, there's the rather alarming unreliability of most of the disc brakes so far. Among cable-driven ones, the Spyres got recalled, the HyRds got re-engineered a bit (basically a non-recall recall), we've all heard about SRAM, and on and on. What's the last time you heard of a standard side-pull caliper brake failing?

Ninth, disc cross forks are, to put it kindly, evolving. Even Enve has the funkiest cable routing system I've ever seen. The best -- and possibly the future -- is an internal housing path that goes into the top of the fork crown and emerges from the back of the fork right above the posts.

Tenth, discs don't seem to have very good longevity in actual cross usage. The few times they've really been tried out in typical crappy cross conditions, the brakes were toast before a single race was over. Hmmmm.

And on and on.

The point of this long pointless discursion is really just that bike technology is evolving rapidly, that so many things are going to be changing like they didn't change in the past, and your whole bike is going to be out of date within 3-5 years anyway. So just buy what you want and don't treat it like you're buying a house. I was curious about cross discs and decided to try them. But I wouldn't have lost sleep if I'd just gotten canti posts and installed mini-V's instead, and I would have had a lighter bike to boot. There's no valid reason for one brake type versus another at this point. They'll all be antiquated in a very few years.

[xeladragon]

Thanks a lot 11.4. Now you have my rethinking my whole decision to go disc!!

JK... sorta... :help:

[harryblack]

cantilevers or v... people should their save 'discs' for their dedicated 'gravel bike' yuk yuk yuk... gotta love the people who can't set up cantis but think 'discs' are the answer to... anything, except b.s. sales $$$.

[11.4]

Thanks a lot 11.4. Now you have my rethinking my whole decision to go disc!!

JK... sorta... :help:

Thanks! I knew I would absolutely make your day.

Just five years ago I would buy a frame and know I could keep it around with my once-every-four-year group upgrades and always look sharp and current. Now I know that whatever I spend on that fancy new bike is going to have to amortize within 2-3 years unless I want the frame to look like external shifter routing on early Dura Ace levers. Thank you, bike industry. I'm sorry to drag you into the sordid reality of how they're trying to pump up sales with new and somewhat irrelevant technology. I asked the same question you did and in the end, I just rolled my eyes and bit down hard.

[Rusty Luggs]

........ more about how much the cost of replacing wheelsets every 1-2 years will be, as well as potential resale of the bike longer term.


Won’t be a need to replace wheels every 1-2 years in the real world due to rim wear, if that is what you are getting at.
No bike purchase decision I’ve ever made included factoring in potential resale value, even more so with a used bike.
Fine to race on a budget, but if you’re doing life cost analysis, I think you have picked the wrong sport.

[thirdgenbird]

Won’t be a need to replace wheels every 1-2 years in the real world due to rim wear, if that is what you are getting at.
No bike purchase decision I’ve ever made included factoring in potential resale value, even more so with a used bike.
Fine to race on a budget, but if you’re doing life cost analysis, I think you have picked the wrong sport.

I feel quite the opposite. I've ridden many frames, used ones in particular, for a very low cost. Italian and hand built frames sort of bottom out and hold value well. The same can be said for things like Thomson seatposts, ck headsets, and some campy parts.

All of that said, racing is a different story. If I were building a race bike, I would buy cost effective knowing value will be lost and could be lost quickly. I also don't think about wheel resale value much. I get what's needed and move on.

[11.4]

I feel quite the opposite. I've ridden many frames, used ones in particular, for a very low cost. Italian and hand built frames sort of bottom out and hold value well. The same can be said for things like Thomson seatposts, ck headsets, and some campy parts.

All of that said, racing is a different story. If I were building a race bike, I would buy cost effective knowing value will be lost and could be lost quickly. I also don't think about wheel resale value much. I get what's needed and move on.

Yeah. If there's anything that depreciates a bike fast and irrevocably, it's cyclocross. In the end I'd just buy a bike that fits and race it. Don't stress over the equipment. Just race it, wear it out, and then get the next best to replace it.

[fourflys]

have had both and prefer cantos... as Old Potatoe said, simpler and cheaper... I've raced cross and ever even thought about having to replace wheels... and I always used my cross bikes during the week on trails...

your concerns about wheel durability are a moot point I believe...

and Giant makes a fantastic bike, that was my first cross bike many moons ago...

[hida yanra]

Fine to race on a budget, but if you’re doing life cost analysis, I think you have picked the wrong sport.

shoooot kid- that's making a run for my new (various) forum signature.
:hello:

[Zoodles]

Just five years ago I would buy a frame and know I could keep it around with my once-every-four-year group upgrades and always look sharp and current. Now I know that whatever I spend on that fancy new bike is going to have to amortize within 2-3 years unless I want the frame to look like external shifter routing on early Dura Ace levers. Thank you, bike industry..

do you actually consider this to be a factor?

I usually ride with someone four or five times before even looking at their bikes. More than that, I dont consider the type of shifter routing when trying to determine who is going to break who's legs first.

[Lovetoclimb]

a cross bike with cantis is the only type of cross bike I would even consider buying.

[11.4]

do you actually consider this to be a factor?

I usually ride with someone four or five times before even looking at their bikes. More than that, I dont consider the type of shifter routing when trying to determine who is going to break who's legs first.

Seriously? Are you riding a 1995 group on any bike you own? My point is that I used to keep the frame for a long time and upgrade components because the frame didn't change that much. Now everything is changing. You won't even be able to install some of the equipment soon to appear on an existing frame. I don't see why you take such an aberrant reading of a point about equipment. Jeez.

[Zoodles]

Seriously? Are you riding a 1995 group on any bike you own? My point is that I used to keep the frame for a long time and upgrade components because the frame didn't change that much. Now everything is changing. You won't even be able to install some of the equipment soon to appear on an existing frame. I don't see why you take such an aberrant reading of a point about equipment. Jeez.

Indeed, I have a '95 Dura-ace crank on a race bike because it does the job.

What I took from that was the need to keep a bike looking sharp or whatever every few years. It differs from my philosophy of use it till it breaks, no need to get offended and not in for the p*ssing match.

Returning to the original question - a sub $1k cross bike is a great buy that won't be rendered obsolete before it is turned out to pasture.

[R3awak3n]

I dont race cross but I just got a bike with disc brakes and they are a pain in the ass to setup. I got them dialed ok but now the front is squeaking. If I raced cross and did my own wrenching, the last thing I would want would be to deal with disc breaks on the regular.

The stopping power is great though, cannot argue with that. Great modulation and stop faster than any of my other bikes.

[metrotuned]

Came from disc MTB .. ride CX with cantis. Disc brake rub, alignment setup, and bleeding, can be a drag.

[dhalbrook]

FWIW, I ended up buying the Giant. It comes with TRP cx9 mini-v brakes which are plenty powerful and it was really easy to set up. First race is tomorrow. Should be fun.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/18/hagetuna.jpg

[fourflys]

good choice! Great bike and really great brakes!

[bcroslin]

Great bike! Have fun.