Twisted road rage: cyclist beats motorist

[pdmtong]

The attack occurred at about 5 p.m. at the busy intersection of East Blithedale Avenue and Camino Alto, police said, adding that Smock and the motorist were at odds over whether the truck's mirror had struck Smock's bike as both men traveled along East Blithedale.

An altercation ensued, and Smock "inflicted such severe injuries on the driver of the vehicle that the driver ended up being transported to the hospital," Dunkel said. "We had witnesses concerned that the person might die."

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Tech-CEO-on-bike-arrested-in-Marin-road-rage-5429625.php

[Gummee]

On one hand: good! Bastard probably had it coming.

If you have to argue whether or not your mirror hit someone, it probably did.

On the other: bad. More ammo for the 'anti-cycling' crowd.

M

[johnny_flapjack]

On one hand: good! Bastard probably had it coming.

If you have to argue whether or not your mirror hit someone, it probably did.

On the other: bad. More ammo for the 'anti-cycling' crowd.

M

Keepin' it classy, I see. Nice that the only problem you have with the severity of the beating is that it will be ammo for the 'anti-cycling' crowd. Maybe he should have followed the guy home and done it in private so as to protect the good rep of the cycling community. :bike:

[Scott Shire]

On one hand: good! Bastard probably had it coming...
M

Why did he have it coming? Why is he a bastard - because he was driving a car? What does one do to deserve being beaten so badly?

Nobody wins in situations like this. You'll never "teach someone a lesson." Shameful behavior.

[William]

If the eye witness reports are true, he kept beating the driver even after he was down and not fighting back/unconscious. That's taking it too far regardless of what happened. Specifics on exactly what happened and what was used are sparse at the moment. Let's see what comes out in the coming days...






William

[Steve in SLO]

The article states he kept beating the guy despite other motorists yelling and honking their horns at him. Sheesh, that will never stop someone in a rage. He needed to be restrained, which it sounds like nobody did.

[CunegoFan]

The driver got off lighly compared to the typical cyclist's fate of being run over.

[bluesea]

Probably abusing his testosterone script.

[TBDSeattle]

On one hand: good! Bastard probably had it coming.

If you have to argue whether or not your mirror hit someone, it probably did.

On the other: bad. More ammo for the 'anti-cycling' crowd.

M

No. No way.

Anger at a class of people is as wrong and useless as it is immoral. No way I'm ever getting behind taking out frustration with a group on an individual.

I see taking out frustration with many drivers on a single driver as a form of a violation of the 4th Geneva convention against collective punishment.

Even without that moral and legal context, I simply am against beating a person to death, or trying to do so, over traffic. If it is not self defense then it is rightfully criminal.

What have we come to if we think that is ok?

[CaptStash]

No. No way.

Anger at a class of people is as wrong and useless as it is immoral. No way I'm ever getting behind taking out frustration with a group on an individual.

I see taking out frustration with many drivers on a single driver as a form of a violation of the 4th Geneva convention against collective punishment.

Even without that moral and legal context, I simply am against beating a person to death, or trying to do so, over traffic. If it is not self defense then it is rightfully criminal.

What have we come to if we think that is ok?

+1. No excuse.

CaptStash....

[joosttx]

The road where the guy allegedly hit the guy with the mirror is incredibly narrow and busy. It is impossible to give a cyclist the proper amount of space when passing one, simply because the road is too narrow. I never ride east blithedale because I consider it an unsafe road to ride. It's not unbelievable that someone would accidentally clip a cyclist with his mirror. It's plainly an unsafe road to cycle.

I am sick that this happened in my neighborhood. Where my kids will go to school. Hope the victim recovers and justice is served.

[bicycletricycle]

No excuse for assaulting people with cars or fists.

[pdmtong]

The road where the guy allegedly hit the guy with the mirror is incredibly narrow and busy. It is impossible to give a cyclist the proper amount of space when passing one, simply because the road is too narrow. I never ride east blithedale because I consider it an unsafe road to ride. It's not unbelievable that someone would accidentally clip a cyclist with his mirror. It's plainly an unsafe road to cycle.

I am sick that this happened in my neighborhood. Where my kids will go to school. Hope the victim recovers and justice is served.

yes, you would have to take the lane or accept the strong likelihood of getting squeezed.

[jimoots]

Something about eye for eye... whole world... losing vision...

With that said, I don't think this will be a popular view...

But after spending many years on the road on a bike, I can certainly sympathize with anyone who's lost their temper after a hit or near-miss and done something dumb/illegal.

Sh*t happens.

Not saying it's right, not saying it's wrong. Sh*t just happens.

The presence of dashcams, mobile cameras, etc motivates me to keep my own temper in check. Seen quite a few cyclists 'outed' online via Facebook for doing the wrong thing thanks to technology.

OT: There was a good case down here where a cyclist* pinched a motorist's keys after an altercation... the driver was apparently scared of the cyclist so he took a photo of the cyclist* (but didn't wind up his window or lock car door?)... got posted on the local police department's Facebook page... nek minute, cyclist* in a bit of trouble.

*He was wearing a sleeveless jersey and ankle socks so I actually think he was a triathlete.

They deleted the FB post but news article is here: http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/cyclist-stole-car-keys-from-motorist-and-rode-off-after-verbal-altercation-at-daw-park/story-fni6uo1m-1226784957554

[Elefantino]

I don't understand a society where violence is glorified, but then I don't watch network television, either.

[rustychisel]

Something about eye for eye... whole world... losing vision...

With that said, I don't think this will be a popular view...

But after spending many years on the road on a bike, I can certainly sympathize with anyone who's lost their temper after a hit or near-miss and done something dumb/illegal.

Sh*t happens.

Not saying it's right, not saying it's wrong. Sh*t just happens.

The presence of dashcams, mobile cameras, etc motivates me to keep my own temper in check. Seen quite a few cyclists 'outed' online via Facebook for doing the wrong thing thanks to technology.

OT: There was a good case down here where a cyclist* pinched a motorist's keys after an altercation... the driver was apparently scared of the cyclist so he took a photo of the cyclist* (but didn't wind up his window or lock car door?)... got posted on the local police department's Facebook page... nek minute, cyclist* in a bit of trouble.

*He was wearing a sleeveless jersey and ankle socks so I actually think he was a triathlete.

They deleted the FB post but news article is here: http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/cyclist-stole-car-keys-from-motorist-and-rode-off-after-verbal-altercation-at-daw-park/story-fni6uo1m-1226784957554


I can sympathise, but no, I don't condone violence ever, by anyone.

I recall that case of stolen keys, don't think they ever identified the cyclist concerned, did they?

[jimoots]

I can sympathise, but no, I don't condone violence ever, by anyone.

I recall that case of stolen keys, don't think they ever identified the cyclist concerned, did they?

Don't get me wrong. Acting out on the roads is the wrong thing to do. I can't and won't defend it. We have police for a reason. I can see how it happens is all.

SA Police seemed to indicate they had a lead on the cyclist due to the FB post. Link here (https://www.facebook.com/sapolicenews/posts/581815395229140).

[ultraman6970]

One thing for sure, that driver wont dare to touch a cyclist never again.

Sad the cyclist over reacted tho... ok... kick his butt (literally) but knock him down is way too much.

[johnny_flapjack]

One thing for sure, that driver wont dare to touch a cyclist again ever again.

Sad the cyclist over reacted tho... ok... kick his butt (literally) but knock him down is way too much.

Yup. Let's hire that guy to beat the ···· out of everyone who drives a car and then all cyclists will be safe. I like where your head's at. :rolleyes:

[benitosan1972]

The cyclist did what I only fantasize about doing whenever I have a run in/altercation/close-call/near-death experience with a car/driver. But I could never translate it into real-life actions cuz I'm civilized, sane, controlled, and pretty wimpy.

[oldpotatoe]

On one hand: good! Bastard probably had it coming.

If you have to argue whether or not your mirror hit someone, it probably did.

On the other: bad. More ammo for the 'anti-cycling' crowd.

M

Deserves to die?

'Crowds' on both sides...too many cyclists would watch and applaud the guy getting beaten to death...

Just shows there is a lot of friction between car drivers and people on bikes. Neither side are 'giving an inch'!!!!

[Gummee]

I've been dealing with idiots (like the driver in the OP) for 20+ years.

Being continually threatened with bodily harm by cars/trucks may very well have me doing something similar to the OP one of these days. I'm not a violent person, but sometimes enough is enough.

Having said that, I tend to ride in a way that tries to minimize the opportunities for people to squeeze me or hit me with their mirror(s).

M

[bluesea]

How did the driver find himself outside of his vehicle? If he did so of his own free will, then one of his lessons here pertains to escalation.

[Admiral Ackbar]

Deserves to die?

'Crowds' on both sides...too many cyclists would watch and applaud the guy getting beaten to death...

Just shows there is a lot of friction between car drivers and people on bikes. Neither side are 'giving an inch'!!!!

i don't see anyone saying he deserved to die..... thats a bit of stretch there bud

[LegendRider]

I know Jeff Smock - we rode together in Atlanta for a number of years. He's an intense, high-achieving guy, but I saw no indications that he was capable of this type of behavior.

A friend of mine spoke with him and here's his brief report slightly edited for clarity:

The guy hit Smock with his rearview mirror. He didn't stop. Smock chased him down. The guy got out of the car and attacked Smock. There are supposedly witnesses that saw this. Once the guy came out Smock wrestled him to the ground and the guy hit his head. Smock then got a few shots in. Not exactly great reporting.

[Mr. Pink]

If I ever survived an altercation with some a h*** in a car that actually stopped and approached me in some manner instead of driving away, (that had to happen here, right? How does a motorist get dragged out of a car by a cyclist and beaten otherwise?) I would make it a priority to grab the keys, therefore disabling the lethal weapon in his or her hands that could be used against me. Survival skills, you know? I'd probably just call the police, or drop them off with a local officer.

And I'll bet Look cleats would be quite a weapon to use against that aggro person coming towards me. Just sayin'.

[William]

Escalation is certainly an issue. And the driver of the vehicle obviously did get out of his vehicle. But, the cyclist didn’t leave the scence either. In the eyes of the law, both parties could likely have avoided the confrontation. There are still a lot of actions/facts that are unknown at this point so it’s going to be speculation on our parts right now. The article stated that they were arguing about whether or not the drivers mirror hit the cyclists bike (probably the handlebars). If they were arguing that means no one was likely hurt in the incident. They probably got into the classic Monkey Dance (http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/2013/03/cofv8-monkey-dance.html) that escalated to a physical confrontation. Regardless of who shoved/punched/struck who, the cyclist got the upper hand. In the eyes of the law, they are already both in the wrong (if both could have reasonably avoided the confrontation). If it was “self defense” on the part of the cyclist, at the point the driver had stopped fighting, was down and not moving/unconscious, the cyclist should have stopped. The threat was nullified. To continue beating the person (with a weapon of some sort as described by witnesses) after they were no longer a threat is taking it beyond a “self-defense” claim.

I have no problem “Going to town” if someone is threatening me and I have no other options. But I also realize that there is another world of legalities, attorneys, courts, and judges likely waiting on the other end of any kind of physical confrontation. You only do what you need to do to nullify the threat, then shut your mouth, let the law handle the rest when they arrive (and call your attorny). Taking it beyond just stopping the threat, as it appears in this case, leaves the door open for all kinds of legal and financial hurt to follow.

It’s a tough line to walk, but you need to understand that before anything happens.



Edit: Seeing LegendRiders Post...


I know Jeff Smock - we rode together in Atlanta for a number of years. He's an intense, high-achieving guy, but I saw no indications that he was capable of this type of behavior.




A friend of mine spoke with him and here's his brief report slightly edited for clarity:




The guy hit Smock with his rearview mirror. He didn't stop. Smock chased him down. The guy got out of the car and attacked Smock. There are supposedly witnesses that saw this. Once the guy came out Smock wrestled him to the ground and the guy hit his head. Smock then got a few shots in. Not exactly great reporting.


If this account is correct, it's the "chased him down part" (depending on what that entails) that could possibly get him into trouble. The response of LE and the drivers attorneys is likely going to be he should have reported it, not "chase him down".






William

[oldpotatoe]

i don't see anyone saying he deserved to die..... thats a bit of stretch there bud

Hey 'bud' the report said one person said the guy 'may die' from his beatings

A poster said he 'probably had it coming'....1+1


"An altercation ensued, and Smock "inflicted such severe injuries on the driver of the vehicle that the driver ended up being transported to the hospital," Dunkel said. "We had witnesses concerned that the person might die."

[Mr. Pink]

I had a moment once in NYC that was very educational. I was on Riverside drive, and some a h*** in a minivan brushed me aside to get around a stopped car turning left. Didn't go down, but, I was pissed. Caught up to him enough to get the plate, but not to smash his drivers side window or something, whatever I was imagining in my rage. Found the closest precinct, and reported this incident to the desk cop.

"Are you hurt?"......."well, no, I'm OK, I guess".

"Is your bike damaged?" ......No, it's OK.

He stared at me for a few moments as only a NYC cop can, waiting for the result.

"Oh, OK, I get it. Sorry for the bother." and walked away in good health and got on with my day.

It could have been much worse.

[William]

I had a moment once in NYC that was very educational. I was on Riverside drive, and some a h*** in a minivan brushed me aside to get around a stopped car turning left. Didn't go down, but, I was pissed. Caught up to him enough to get the plate, but not to smash his drivers side window or something, whatever I was imagining in my rage. Found the closest precinct, and reported this incident to the desk cop.

"Are you hurt?"......."well, no, I'm OK, I guess".

"Is your bike damaged?" ......No, it's OK.

He stared at me for a few moments as only a NYC cop can, waiting for the result.

"Oh, OK, I get it. Sorry for the bother." and walked away in good health and got on with my day.

It could have been much worse.

Yeah, I'm sure there are going to be varying levels of response depending on where you live, and certainly pertaining to whether you were hurt/had damages or not.








William

[oldpotatoe]

I've been dealing with idiots (like the driver in the OP) for 20+ years.

Being continually threatened with bodily harm by cars/trucks may very well have me doing something similar to the OP one of these days. I'm not a violent person, but sometimes enough is enough.

Having said that, I tend to ride in a way that tries to minimize the opportunities for people to squeeze me or hit me with their mirror(s).

M

We all have. All we can do is be careful, ride defensively, expect these guys to be stupid or mean...I am guilty as the next of going nose to nose with some idiot but a few years ago 2 drivers got into it. one went to his trunk, pulled out a cross bow, shot the guy in the chest, drove away.. Be careful .

[Admiral Ackbar]

Hey 'bud' the report said one person said the guy 'may die' from his beatings

A poster said he 'probably had it coming'....1+1


"An altercation ensued, and Smock "inflicted such severe injuries on the driver of the vehicle that the driver ended up being transported to the hospital," Dunkel said. "We had witnesses concerned that the person might die."

haha okay, I'm going to assume the poster that said "probably had it coming" didn't mean death, id hope. maybe he can prove me wrong

and being transported to the hospital with "serious injuries" does mean he was close to death or "may die" (not sure where you got that quote from), not to mention he has already been released (on the same or next day it appears)

and a witness being "concerned the person might die" does not mean life threatening either. you're jumping to conclusions

[oldpotatoe]

haha okay, I'm going to assume the poster that said "probably had it coming" didn't mean death, id hope. maybe he can prove me wrong

and being transported to the hospital with "serious injuries" does mean he was close to death, not to mention he has already been released (on the same or next day it appears)

and a witness being "concerned the person might die" does not mean life threatening either. you're jumping to conclusions

I think all of us, none of whom were there, are. But the 'auto idea' that car driver wrong, deserves a beating, cyclist right cuz he was on a bike, is also a reach w/o really knowing what happened and why.

In this instance, car driver went to hospital, not cyclist.

[Admiral Ackbar]

well were on the same page in that i agree that no one can really pass judgement without being there nor do i believe, by any stretch, that he deserved to beat beaten bloody and to the ground. it just irked me the way you assumed anyone was wishing death upon the victim

[oldpotatoe]

well were on the same page in that i agree that no one can really pass judgement without being there nor do i believe, by any stretch, that he deserved to beat beaten bloody and to the ground. it just irked me the way you assumed anyone was wishing death upon the victim

In other discussions about car vs cyclist, some posters clearly wished death upon the driver of the vehicle. Discussions here.

[Mr. Pink]

We all have. All we can do is be careful, ride defensively, expect these guys to be stupid or mean...I am guilty as the next of going nose to nose with some idiot but a few years ago 2 drivers got into it. one went to his trunk, pulled out a cross bow, shot the guy in the chest, drove away.. Be careful .

Yeah, again, NYC about fifteen years ago, and I start shouting profanities at a car hassling me from behind. As they passed me, I see five dudes who weren't exactly solid citizens laughing at me. Thank the lord they considered it a joke or something. I could've been a drive by victim, pretty easily.

[oldpotatoe]

Yeah, again, NYC about fifteen years ago, and I start shouting profanities at a car hassling me from behind. As they passed me, I see five dudes who weren't exactly solid citizens laughing at me. Thank the lord they considered it a joke or something. I could've been a drive by victim, pretty easily.

Yep, there are a LOT of guns out there, some attained legally, the subject of another discussion on another day.

[jdwertz]

I've mostly experienced people yelling out the window some comment as they blow by. Thankfully no serious incidents so far. I have found that it just makes it worse to respond and reciprocate. It is hard to know how to handle certain drivers because they just seem to have no common sense at all, especially when then do something stupid. Driving isn't for everyone...

[Mr. Pink]

Driving isn't for everyone...

.....but everyone drives.

Look around you at a rest stop off a highway sometime, and say to yourself, "I'm sharing the road at 70mph with these people". Sobering.

[jdwertz]

.....but everyone drives.

Look around you at a rest stop off a highway sometime, and say to yourself, "I'm sharing the road at 70mph with these people". Sobering.

Yea it is very scary. I commute 1.5 hours each way to work down I-95 and let me tell you I have seen some very sloppy driving, destroyed cars being driven, people reading books/newspaper, it is a disgrace.

Driving tests ought to be more intensive and restrictive like in some European countries.

[weiwentg]

On one hand: good! Bastard probably had it coming.

If you have to argue whether or not your mirror hit someone, it probably did.

On the other: bad. More ammo for the 'anti-cycling' crowd.

M

in addition, the cops will likely come down harder on the cyclist. unfortunately, we are in the position where we know that drivers who hit us with their vehicles will mostly avoid sanction. this leads to the great temptation to take the law into one's own hands. I ride in Baltimore city, so this temptation has struck me many times. but it's counterproductive. seek political avenues of redress: campaign for bike infrastructure and better laws.

[Cornfed]

in addition, the cops will likely come down harder on the cyclist. unfortunately, we are in the position where we know that drivers who hit us with their vehicles will mostly avoid sanction. this leads to the great temptation to take the law into one's own hands. I ride in Baltimore city, so this temptation has struck me many times. but it's counterproductive. seek political avenues of redress: campaign for bike infrastructure and better laws.

Saw this excellent blog (http://www.blackmtncycles.com/2014/03/bikes-and-cars-cars-and-bikes.html) on the topic by Mike Varley (http://www.blackmtncycles.com/p/welcome.html) the other day. He also referenced this very insightful blog on the many benefits of safe group rides (http://www.peopleforbikes.org/blog/entry/changing-road-group-ride-behavior).

[rustychisel]

Yea it is very scary. I commute 1.5 hours each way to work down I-95 and let me tell you I have seen some very sloppy driving, destroyed cars being driven, people reading books/newspaper, it is a disgrace.

Driving tests ought to be more intensive and restrictive like in some European countries.

Don't feel too bad for your lot in life.

Pull off the highway and go into any cafe at any service around Europe (including England), look around, and say to yourself "I'm sharing the road with these people".

It can be scary anywhere.

[snah]

This twist reminds me of an incident north of Indy a couple years back. Motorist and cyclist have an exchange, motorist stops in the middle of the road, cyclist pulls a gun and fires a few shots at the car.

Either side, it's all a little frightening. Just last week we had a 23 year old commuting convert killed, hit by a school bus. Kid had a blog talking about his adventures on the bike, his very last post went something like this, "If you see me on the road, please don't hit me with your car." Not making that up.

[ultraman6970]

Two guys from another team I remember were carrying a small gun just for protection because they were already assaulted and their bikes robbed twice to each of them. Their bikes were so rare than just showing something in the night news was going to make those bikes impossible to reduce, 2 days later were left in the road, but thats another story. One of this guys used the gun once in another dumb ass trying to assault him (moron got 2 shots, one in each leg from what I heard), obviously he was not sympathetic with the guy so he left him there, crying like a little baby and swearing he was not going to steal again... NOT!

The next time a car tried to virtually run over him, bad luck... panam 4x100 km gold medalist... next light he got the driver off the car and put the gun at his head and got him off the car. Another guy crying for his life. Obviously nothing else happened but you never know who are you messing with. Sure they learn the lesson really well.

Yep, there are a LOT of guns out there, some attained legally, the subject of another discussion on another day.

[Mr. Pink]

Holy crap, where do you live?

[MadRocketSci]

He's an intense, high-achieving guy, but I saw no indications that he was capable of this type of behavior.

Apparently we're all capable of this behavior...

from William's monkey dance link:

We have all seen the script many, many times. It usually begins with a hard look, followed by a verbal challenge, often, as above, “What’re you lookin at?” Both members play and once you get sucked into the script, your normal, logical brain is not in control. Your limbic system has been doing this dance since before humans even existed. It will hijack you.

To clarify, it seems it's the R-complex that's doing the hijacking...from Cosmos (the old one), "the persistence of memory":

You see, capping the brain stem is the so-called R-complex "R" for reptile.
It's the seat of aggression, ritual, territoriality and social hierarchies.
It evolved some hundreds of millions of years ago in our reptilian ancestors.
So, deep inside our brains is something rather like the brain of a crocodile.

So if you've ever felt this "i'm not backing down from this guy" feeling, then methinks you have it in you...and it's good to realize that it's in you...



http://www.shahrogersphotography.com/gallery/Crocodile/1140697.jpg

[Elefantino]

There may be more here than an out-of-control cyclist.

Story here. (http://www.cyclelicio.us/2014/mill-valley-bicycle-road-rage-arrest/)

[William]

As I said when I posted, it was just speculation at that point. This report/posting is a 180 from the previous paper report. We'll just have to wait for an official report to have a better understanding of what happened.






William

[nicrump]

i may not be a smart man but i say the fact no one has been charged, weeks later, i'd wager the drunken story has enough truth to it.

[54ny77]

Same thing happened to me years ago up in Harlem while heading out to the GWB. They didn't like how I expressed myself, and offered their own counterpoint. No physical violence occurred, just a few very quiet stares and suggestive outcomes.

I've been mellowed ever since.

:bike:

Yeah, again, NYC about fifteen years ago, and I start shouting profanities at a car hassling me from behind. As they passed me, I see five dudes who weren't exactly solid citizens laughing at me. Thank the lord they considered it a joke or something. I could've been a drive by victim, pretty easily.

[Repack Rider]

This took place three blocks from where I grew up and where my mother still lives. My mother will be 94 tomorrow.

Right or wrong in traffic is an open question, since none of us was there. But right or wrong in beating a person unconscious without stopping even after resistance is gone, is an easy call.

[Scooper]

The truck driver and his passenger were both drunk (over .08 BA), the truck's mirror struck Jeffrey Smock to start the the whole thing, then the driver and his passenger got out and started throwing punches at Smock according to witnesses.

According to those who were there, Smock was indeed hit by the mirror on the pickup truck. The two drunk occupants of the truck then stopped, got out of the truck, and began swinging at Smock.

Mill Valley Bicycle Road Rage Arrest (http://www.cyclelicio.us/2014/mill-valley-bicycle-road-rage-arrest/)

EDIT - Oops! I see Elefantino beat me to it...

[Gummee]

seek political avenues of redress: campaign for bike infrastructure and better laws.

So how's that workin out for ya?

IME cops tend to side with the car in pretty much any car vs bicycle confrontation (as evidenced by the post above).

Add to that the lax sentences handed down by courts (if by some miracle the case DOES go to court) and you get a society that's willing and able to use their vehicle to intimidate and/or harm another person. AMHIK

I'm guessing that this wasn't the driver in the OP's first 'go round' with cyclists based on what I read. Takes someone that's been stewing on the whole 'cyclists in the road' thing to get out of a car and confront someone.

M

[pbarry]

Scooper, your updates are greatly appreciated. I lived in Marin for 5 years and commuted over Camino Alto for a few of those. Rarely did I ride on East Blithedale. Always seemed sketchey, and I imagine more so now.

Street justice is sometimes the best. No one died: Witnesses saw some blood and extrapolated that into the worst case scenario..

[bluesea]

+ alcohol and 2against1.

[LegendRider]

Latest on the "man bites dog" story:

http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Trial-ordered-for-Marin-tech-executive-in-road-5718977.php

[jtolive]

The comments are pretty condemning towards cyclists regardless of the motorists behavior. Total lack of the concept that driving a large moving vehicle requires a certain duty of responsibility.

[djg21]

On one hand: good! Bastard probably had it coming.

If you have to argue whether or not your mirror hit someone, it probably did.

On the other: bad. More ammo for the 'anti-cycling' crowd.

M

There is nothing good about this. It doesn't matter what the motorist did. The cyclist became the aggressor and assaulted the motorist, inflicting significant bodily injury. The cyclist should be prosecuted and put in jail, and he is lucky the motorist did not succumb to his injuries.

There is not excuse or justification.

Edit: On reading the subsequent media coverage, there may be justification if the motorist (and friend) got out out of car. This will be addressed at trial and we'll have to see what a jury does.

[Gummee]

There is nothing good about this. It doesn't matter what the motorist did. The cyclist became the aggressor and assaulted the motorist, inflicting significant bodily injury. The cyclist should be prosecuted and put in jail, and he is lucky the motorist did not succumb to his injuries.

There is not excuse or justification.

Edit: On reading the subsequent media coverage, there may be justification if the motorist (and friend) got out out of car. This will be addressed at trial and we'll have to see what a jury does.

Let me get this straight: I get hit with a mirror and that's OK?

Guy gets out of his car and starts throwing punches and that's OK too?

...but I knock the guy down and make sure he's not getting up to do it again and that's NOT OK?

Did I get that right?

M

[gdw]

Beating someone senseless when they are no longer able to defend themselves is wrong regardless of who started the altercation.

[djg21]

Let me get this straight: I get hit with a mirror and that's OK?
Guy gets out of his car and starts throwing punches and that's OK too?

...but I knock the guy down and make sure he's not getting up to do it again and that's NOT OK?

Did I get that right?

M

Of course its not ok for a motorist to hit a cyclist with any part his/her automobile. If this happens, your recourse is to call the police, and if injured, to seek to recover your damages.

If you are confronted and threatened by a motorist, You may use that amount of force reasonably necessary to defend yourself. The moment you use more than that reasonable amount of force, you become the aggressor.

At least from the initial story, it appears that the cyclist here continued to use force after the motorist no longer posed a danger to him, and in fact continued to beat the disabled driver. If this proves true, the cyclist was in the wrong.

However, It is unclear what actually happened here. The follow-up stories reference a passenger who also got out of the truck. There's no mention of what he did. This whole thing sounds f&$@ed up and the media coverage is very suspect.

[Rueda Tropical]

One shouldn't make any assumptions about what happened. These sort of situations once initiated can get out of control quickly.

I certainly would not condone anyone beating someone when they could not defend themselves but it may have happened so fast that the cyclist was not aware the guy was out when he punched him after taking him down. Or maybe he did know. It's all just speculation.

[Gummee]

Of course its not ok for a motorist to hit a cyclist with any part his/her automobile. If this happens, your recourse is to call the police, and if injured, to seek to recover your damages. Umm yeah. And how exactly is it you're going to get the cops to pay attention to you, much less track someone down and issue a summons? All the driver needs to say is 'I didn't see them*' and they *may* get a small ticket. Doubt it 'cause the cop didn't see it and in my case, there won't be bystanders.

Add to that there *may* be a cop somewhere within 45min of where I'm riding and well... You asked for it! Not a whole lot of coverage out in the boonies where I'm typically riding.

If you are confronted and threatened by a motorist, You may use that amount of force reasonably necessary to defend yourself. The moment you use more than that reasonable amount of force, you become the aggressor. IDK about anyone else, but I've had to suck it up for 20+ years now. I may have a tendency to take out some of my (many) frustrations when I can. No, its not 'right' but if I'm in the situation that the guy in the OP was, well...

This whole thing sounds f&$@ed up and the media coverage is very suspect.This

M

*see the story of the 90YO guy that just ran over and killed a cyclist in AZ and isn't even getting a ticket

[jimoots]

I start this with the preface that I'm someone that sometimes gets a bit hot under the collar after near-misses.

I also add that discussion around topics like this serve nobody unless the discussion educates or enlightens people.

There was a comment on the article that said something along the lines of "if you don't have a scratch on you, you can't go around punching people in the teeth".

Truer words never spoken, and something that I will endeavour to keep in mind next time I feel slighted.

Consider me enlightened. Thanks, thread.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=Gummee;1614107

IDK about anyone else, but I've had to suck it up for 20+ years now. I may have a tendency to take out some of my (many) frustrations when I can. No, its not 'right' but if I'm in the situation that the guy in the OP was, well...

Then be prepared to go the whole way..sit before a jury of your peers, with a lawyer, and see what happens.

Not sure taking out your (many) frustrations on a guy on the ground, and going to jail for it, would be worth it..

[Gummee]

IDK about anyone else, but I've had to suck it up for 20+ years now. I may have a tendency to take out some of my (many) frustrations when I can. No, its not 'right' but if I'm in the situation that the guy in the OP was, well...

Then be prepared to go the whole way..sit before a jury of your peers, with a lawyer, and see what happens.

Not sure taking out your (many) frustrations on a guy on the ground, and going to jail for it, would be worth it..I doubt we'll ever find out. Its a rare time that someone makes me mad enough to chase someone down and beat the snot out of em.

Happens on occasion, but its rare.

...however... you mess with the SO, and bets are off.

M

[Jgrooms]

I hope he has a good defense team. In today's anti cyclist climate, I wouldn't trust a jury of my 'peers.'

For example note the reporting. Hitting the cyclist with the vehicle is the cause of the "spat." Supposedly he almost died, but was later released. Now that is some great reporting. And the comments, many citing the driver's near death experience...wow!

Compare that to the comment sections when a cyclist is thrown into a windshield at 55, then bounced off the pavement & then run over. Oh well...

Defense: "why was the driver out of the vehicle?"

"Why was the driver not tested for BAC?"

"why did the passenger exit the vehicle & then flee?"

We all know what happened here. A couple of big talkin 'tough guys' messed w the wrong pissed off 'gay' cyclist in his spandex & got an ass wuppin. Oh and they were quite possibly intoxicated to boot. Watch how that'll be irrelevant to the case. "I just didn't see him judge. And golly he was riding on this busy narrow road...what could I do?"

Justice will be served?

[gdw]

"We all know what happened here."

We don't "know" anything. Jumping to conclusions based on a the limited information in the articles is foolish.

[Jgrooms]

"We all know what happened here."



We don't "know" anything. Jumping to conclusions based on a the limited information in the articles is foolish.


How about this? IMO. Its a forum, not a court of law. Conclusions based on facts. Driver got his butt kicked. Driver admitted to alcohol consumption, but apparently was not tested. Rider and witnesses state he was impacted by vehicle.

Assumption based on experience: contact, verbal exchange, cyclist catches up, verbal escalates...

[LegendRider]

I hope he has a good defense team. In today's anti cyclist climate, I wouldn't trust a jury of my 'peers.'

Smock is loaded. He will have the best defense available.

[Jgrooms]

Smock is loaded. He will have the best defense available.


I figured, but as gdw says we shouldn't assume :-)

Good to hear. It will be an interesting case. Lets hope its fair.

[Jgrooms]

Smock is loaded. He will have the best defense available.


I figured, but as gdw says we shouldn't assume :-)

Good to hear. It will be an interesting case. Lets hope its fair.

[mdeeds71]

I start this with the preface that I'm someone that sometimes gets a bit hot under the collar after near-misses.

I also add that discussion around topics like this serve nobody unless the discussion educates or enlightens people.

There was a comment on the article that said something along the lines of "if you don't have a scratch on you, you can't go around punching people in the teeth".

Truer words never spoken, and something that I will endeavour to keep in mind next time I feel slighted.

Consider me enlightened. Thanks, thread.


If there is an attempt to use bodily harm and it misses the target, knife that fails to penetrate my skin or a bullet that misses the intended…I will get around to taking care of the harm that was intended for me. Just because you have no scratch on you does not mean that the intent to do bodily harm was not there and there is no guarantee it will not be attempted again towards you. It is the intent that needs to be looked at not necessarily the result of their intent.

[LegendRider]

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_28146570/tech-executive-begins-trial-marin-road-rage-case

[LegendRider]

90 days in jail.

http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Marin-County-road-rage-cyclist-sentenced-to-90-6494205.php

[MikeD]

90 days in jail.



http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Marin-County-road-rage-cyclist-sentenced-to-90-6494205.php


Expect an appeal.

[Fivethumbs]

Here in L.A. that translates to about an actual week in jail.

[Jaq]

I'd be surprised if he got any actual time at all. His defense made mention of PTSD - from a small plane crash a while back. His attorney will probably use that to get monitored home jail.

[JeffS]

Anyone know what happened to the drunk driver who hit him? I'm assuming it was closer to nothing, than assault with a deadly weapon.

In our society, Smock would have likely walked if he'd simply pulled out a gun and shot Laskowski.

We would all be safer if being beaten unconscious in the roadway was on the mind of every a-hole motorist.

[JeffS]

Let me get this straight: I get hit with a mirror and that's OK?

Guy gets out of his car and starts throwing punches and that's OK too?

...but I knock the guy down and make sure he's not getting up to do it again and that's NOT OK?

Did I get that right?

M

Some people are just non-confrontational pussies.