why doof likes serotta, sachs, kellog...rant...

[Dr. Doofus]

ok

front ends on "modern" bikes are stupid

super short integrated head tubes are moronic, and seem to be designed around the "use anatomic bars and rotate them up" gestalt, which is stupid, even if Tom Boonen does it because he's too young to know better

look at doof's bikes: with 9cm of saddle-to-bar drop, his hoods are about 3cm lower than the tops of his bars, and about 3 cm lower than the stem clamp (and doof even raised 'em 5mm over the winter...but they're going back down in a week). if doof rides the flats of his bars like he should, his hands will be a good 14cm lower than the tops of his bars, like god and jan jansen say you should be. of course, to get these hand positions on some real handlebars, doof has to build a smokestack of spacers or ride the ol ht extension.

now look at this bike: the stupid anatomic bars (and these aren't the worst ones) force you to rotate them up to get a decent hand position in the "drops" because the flats are too short for you to use them. so to get your only "low" hand position you gotta roll em up, roll em up, so the brake hoods are pretty much even with the stem clamp. if doof wanted to get the same hand positions as he has on his bike, he'd have to get rid of all the spacer and rotate the bars so the hoods are even with, or even slightly higher than, the stem clamp. this is stupid and evil. he'd have 12cm of saddle-to-bar drop, which would look cool, but it wouldn't be any more aero because his hands would be in the same spot that they were on the smokestack spacer bike. it wouldn't be better. it might look better. or it might look wack, like most "modern" bikes do

[Dr. Doofus]

so where do serotta, sachs, kellog, goodrich, pegoretti all fit in this?


their bikes are not designed with stupid integrated headsets that force you to use a stupid "rotate the wack bars with only three useable hand positions" front end setup to get low.

their bikes have higher front ends that the doof likes not because they would help him set his bars even with the seat, but because they would allow him to set up a "traditional" front end with proper non-anatomic bars that would put his drops low, without the spacer smokestack.

you guys get it

but you know that

[Dr. Doofus]

some context for this

doof went out with a college kid to do 4x10 thursday

kid rides a 58, doof rides a 58, contact points within a few mm of each other.

kid looks at doof's 30mm of spacer and says "you could get more aero"

the kid's bike has 1cm of spacer on an integrated HS, anatomic bars rotated up

doof puts the two bikes side-by-side

doof's hoods and drops are a few mm lower than the kid's

the kid has 2.5cm more saddle-to-bar drop: but it ain't "lower"

:crap: :crap: :crap: :crap:

[yeehawfactor]

i drank beer last night.

[Dr. Doofus]

maybe doof should drink beer

[Climb01742]

but we love you anyway. actually, it's part of your charm.

[dirtdigger88]

but we love you anyway. actually, it's part of your charm.

two timer

Jason

[Climb01742]

but we love you anyway. actually, it's part of your charm.

[LegendRider]

Here's a great example of the silliness of which the doof speaks. How can any self-respecting pro ride this monstrosity???

[Mikej]

Here's a great example of the silliness of which the doof speaks. How can any self-respecting pro ride this monstrosity???


That dude would stomp the krap out of you, regardless of your bars. Sorry.

[dbrk]

In some other thread (multiple, I suppose, and with that annoying prating, insistent tone that you all have come to endure and forgive), I was noting how my recent scan of bikes in Velosnooze and even the usually more sober (Brits...) CyclingPlus had left me in aesthetic freeze. I am numbed by bikes like this Cofidis aboimination. I used to get hot, you know, sort of angry that things had gotten so blantantly and unnecessarily stupid. Doof is so, so right.

But here we are: modern race bike design is so far from beautiful that I just turn the page as if it were about something I am no longer interested in. You know how you look through a magazine in a dentist's office [substitute someplace you would rather not be looking at something you would never consider] ? You look in that breezy, inattentive way, and toss it insouciantly aside, incapable of remembering you looked at it when the NSA comes to question you about your interests, phone calls, emails, and other links to dissent. This is how I'm feeling about modern bikes. I LOVE bikes but I am not even interested in these designs. I would rather look at woodworking or audio magazines and, bless those who really love that worthy-to-love stuff, I could care less about that! So, I sit around inventing bikes with irrelevant, hard to use (watch yer fingers!!) 1950s derailleurs and still post on a Forum that's mostly about modern stuff. Go figure. I am either confused or just doing anything I can not to do all the work I must do. Nahh, I'm just hangin' out with friends. The rest is just stuff.

dbrk

[dbrk]

That dude would stomp the krap out of you, regardless of your bars. Sorry.

So the purpose of riding a bike is to stomp or be stomped? I suppose that is one reason and the implication of this picture. Of course, nearly anyone could stomp the krap out of me but this guy gets paid to ride a bike this ugly and I am fortunate enough to say that you could not pay me to ride it, and that would be because it's so ugly.

dbrk

[LegendRider]

That dude would stomp the krap out of you, regardless of your bars. Sorry.

Lighten up, Francis.

Plus, I'm not criticizing him personally - he was given a bike with that has a head tube which is way too short. It's probably the only way he can fit on the thing.

[LegendRider]

So the purpose of riding a bike is to stomp or be stomped? I suppose that is one reason and the implication of this picture. Of course, nearly anyone could stomp the krap out of me but this guy gets paid to ride a bike this ugly and I am fortunate enough to say that you could not pay me to ride it, and that would be because it's so ugly.

dbrk

Exactly. I will state that without exception any Div. 1 pro can "stomp the krap" out of me - a 38 year old recreation rider who loves beautiful bikes for their own sake.

[Fixed]

bro I wonder if the guys used those beautiful wooden rims felt like this when those alum. rims came out ? time waits for no one times change

[Mikej]

Maybe he likes his set up, do you think this pro is sitting somewhere trashing retro grouches and thier brooks saddles? No, i bet he isn't, so everybody has an opinion and thier right to express it, as long as nobody gets thier feelings hurt, right?

[e-RICHIE]

That dude would stomp the krap out of you, regardless of your bars. Sorry.



doof needs a better pharmacist imo

[Tailwinds]

How can any self-respecting pro ride this monstrosity???

Sponsorship.

[93legendti]

Maybe he likes his set up, do you think this pro is sitting somewhere trashing retro grouches and thier brooks saddles? No, i bet he isn't, so everybody has an opinion and thier right to express it, as long as nobody gets thier feelings hurt, right?

Post of the year! Sometimes I wonder how people can spend so much negative energy worrying about other people's bikes. It is supposed to be fun, right?

[e-RICHIE]

so where do serotta, sachs, kellog, goodrich, pegoretti all fit in this?


their bikes are not designed with stupid integrated headsets<cut>


do these things solve any problems
or have a single redeeming value?

hey - thanks for reading.

[e-RICHIE]

Post of the year! Sometimes I wonder how people can spend so much negative energy worrying about other people's bikes. It is supposed to be fun, right?


is that a rhetorical question?

[Mikej]

doof needs a better pharmacist imo
nm

[93legendti]

is that a rhetorical question?

Good question...

[manet]

http://www.kayguitar.com/dealerdirect/imageserver/pplus/COWBELL.jpg

[palincss]

bro I wonder if the guys used those beautiful wooden rims felt like this when those alum. rims came out ? time waits for no one times change

And maybe they said, "Sure is nice the wheel doesn't go out of true when the humidity changes".

That doesn't change the fact that not all that is new is good or intelligently designed. Times may change, but I think this thread has established quite clearly that this change is not always for the better. How smart is it to slavishly follow a stupid trend?

[e-RICHIE]

How smart is it to slavishly follow a stupid trend?


is that a rhetorical question?

[palincss]

is that a rhetorical question?


Well, let's turn the question back to the head tube w/intergrated headset, ask you: as one of the most respected frame builders in the world, how do you feel about it? And about the riding position illustrated?

Do you follow trends because they are new, or do you determine for yourself what works best and provides the best performance?

[e-RICHIE]

Well, let's turn the question back to the head tube w/intergrated headset, ask you: as one of the most respected frame builders in the world, how do you feel about it?
they are one of the most stupid tech spec changes
i can think about since they were first copied from
40s and 50s bianchis and that ilk. why the integrated
headset exists is, well - beyond me.
And about the riding position illustrated?
i won't comment on it because i see a guy leaning
on a bicycle, not riding it. fwiw, if i spent as much
time riding as a pro does, my position would not be
what it is on my road bicycle. how much different it
would be is hard to say - but i am not putting in the
15 thou mile seasons.
Do you follow trends because they are new, or do you determine for yourself what works best and provides the best performance?
i try to assimilate frank; i say to myself, "self, what would
sinatra do?" thusfar, following a market trend just for the
sake of it hasn't really gotten me more tail atmo.

[jerk]

the reason that bike looks whacked is because it was designed around a different position. the rider moved back....so the stem had to be shortened and the levers had to come up. not ideal but good enough untill they make him a new custom frame based on his new position.

most pro bikes look much better than that thing imho.

jerk

[Dr. Doofus]

doof saw his pharmacist, and the caffeine has mellowed him out enough to write sensibly:

doof's gripe about the compact/integrated combo is that you have to use anatomic bars with the hoods rolled up to get three useable hand positions - the tops, hoods low enough so you can ride with a flat back with your hands on the hoods and some arm bend, and the "drops" or whatever you call those anatomic bendy bits under the brake hoods.

with round bars (not the deda campiones, as we now know from the jerk), you have four hand positions -- tops, hoods, hooks, drops. there is more vertical distance between the high and the low, but you have options. options are good. sprinting in the drops and hooks without banging your wrists is good. being able to change from the hooks to the drops while doing stupid stuff like riding all out for 90 minutes is good.

it boils down to this: the change to integrated/compact+anatomic bars takes away a hand position, and solves no pressing mechanical problem. doof is not a retro grouch. doof likes crap that works and has a sensible reason for why it works (a c-50 with a dura-ace srm setup and some ADA wheels would work, and would have sound functional logic behind every high tech, high zoot part...and he could use deda 215 trads with the bike with only 15cm of spacer so it wouldn't retarded....).

whatever..gotts to get on the trainer for some 4x10 with doof's pal, the power tap...its 38 and raining....

[jerk]

another perspective; integrated headsets aren't that bad. if one imagines the desire of the builder to be that of stiffening up the bike from front to back; an integrated headset can serve the function of allowing a bigger surface area to weld the top and down tubes to. this was the original idea behind the concept on the pinarello prince and dario pegoretti's great googlee mooglee. the same reasoning holds true for giant drop-outs like what you see on pegorettis.

why the industry as a whole has latched on to this design is for the same reason the industry latches on to anything; money and style. that being said the design of a pinarello dogma, a ridley damocles and even a time vxrs includes an integrated headset for sound reasons. naturally, a regular headset requires less precision, and a pitted cup doesn't mean a new frame.

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

another perspective; integrated headsets aren't that bad. if one imagines the desire of the builder to be that of stiffening up the bike from front to back; an integrated headset can serve the function of allowing a bigger surface area to weld the top and down tubes to.<cut>


i say this with love and admiration for
pal jerk yo but - sometimes i talk with
peter johnson about shet like this; he
a former national class racer and hobby
framebuilder and more importantly, a
student of the sport, and he and i agree
on many things - this among them: if
a 70s frame's dimensions wrt to material
was stiff enough for merckx, then that speaks
volumes. heck - it prolly says more about me
and pj than it does about internal headsets,
but i still think they are a market driven
concept and solve no problems. i hope we
are still on for provo iirc cheers! :beer:

[slowgoing]

The doof sounds more like the jerk every day.

[jerk]

i say this with love and admiration for
pal jerk yo but - sometimes i talk with
peter johnson about shet like this; he
a former national class racer and hobby
framebuilder and more importantly, a
student of the sport, and he and i agree
on many things - this among them: if
a 70s frame's dimensions wrt to material
was stiff enough for merckx, then that speaks
volumes. heck - it prolly says more about me
and pj than it does about internal headsets,
but i still think they are a market driven
concept and solve no problems. i hope we
are still on for provo iirc cheers! :beer:

dood- the dimensions of those '70s frames were based around different materials. of course those bikes were stiff enough then, the jerk's spx bike is stiffer than pretty much anything else the jerk has ridden.

carbon and aluminum are what forced the builders to go oversize. can you think of a carbon fork that works as well as a good steel fork? it's got to be bigger and fatter to be almost as stiff as the steel fork. same thing with frames imho.

anyway, agreed that integrated solves no problems....these bikes could use an 1 1/4 external headset for the bottom and a "standard" 1 1/8th for the top ....anyway,

provo bound, and none of the jerk's bikes have a stupid integrated headset except for the incoming pinarello anyway and they are none the worse for it.

the bigger question is, with the uci weight limit being what it is, do carbon and alloy frame offer ANY advantage over a lugged steel frame/fork?

the jerk and his wives will be in provo with bells on imho bro. iroc, tgif
jerk

[e-RICHIE]

dood- the dimensions of those '70s frames were based around different materials. of course those bikes were stiff enough then, the jerk's spx bike is stiffer than pretty much anything else the jerk has ridden.

carbon and aluminum are what forced the builders to go oversize. can you think of a carbon fork that works as well as a good steel fork? it's got to be bigger and fatter to be almost as stiff as the steel fork. same thing with frames imho.

anyway, agreed that integrated solves no problems....these bikes could use an 1 1/4 external headset for the bottom and a "standard" 1 1/8th for the top ....anyway,

provo bound, and none of the jerk's bikes have a stupid integrated headset except for the incoming pinarello anyway and they are none the worse for it.

the bigger question is, with the uci weight limit being what it is, do carbon and alloy frame offer ANY advantage over a lugged steel frame/fork?

the jerk and his wives will be in provo with bells on imho bro. iroc, tgif
jerk

i'm relieved.

[jerk]

i'm relieved.


want a cigarette?

[e-RICHIE]

want a cigarette?

i'm leavin' for a training ride.

[Fixed]

bro when my cadd 7 is long gone my lugged sl col tubed bike will still be hangin on the hook over my computer it's part on me cheers

[palincss]

they are one of the most stupid tech spec changes
i can think about since they were first copied from
40s and 50s bianchis and that ilk. why the integrated
headset exists is, well - beyond me.

i won't comment on it because i see a guy leaning
on a bicycle, not riding it. fwiw, if i spent as much
time riding as a pro does, my position would not be
what it is on my road bicycle. how much different it
would be is hard to say - but i am not putting in the
15 thou mile seasons.

i try to assimilate frank; i say to myself, "self, what would
sinatra do?" thusfar, following a market trend just for the
sake of it hasn't really gotten me more tail atmo.

Well, there we have it. The master is interested in performance rather than market trends; and where he is not inner directed, he looks to a legend perhaps best known for the statement, "I Did It My Way", for guidance. Can't say fairer 'n that.

[Dr. Doofus]

The doof sounds more like the jerk every day.

because we're right

[e-RICHIE]

Well, there we have it. The master is interested in performance rather than market trends; and where he is not inner directed, he looks to a legend perhaps best known for the statement, "I Did It My Way", for guidance. Can't say fairer 'n that.


yeah what palincss-issimo wrote tyvm

[Dr. Doofus]

yeah what palincss-issimo wrote tyvm

aycttttb imho bro

[yeehawfactor]

because we're right
Your pendulous thorax makes cellists envious of the rotund sounds emanating from your nose in D minor.

http://www.madsci.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/~lynn/jardin/SCG/

[Dr. Doofus]

why patrick,

Such meals that you cook! Certainly your kitchen is overrun with pestilence and vermin!

may doof humbly add,

My eyelids belch with effluvial afterthoughts when you tease me with gelatin and congealed chicken rinds.

[manet]

http://www.danheller.com/images/NewYork/Neighborhoods/2nd-ave-deli-big.jpg

[csm]

just because it was "good enough back then" doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.
take skis.
the straight skis that the mahre bros medalled with back in the day are garbage tuned barrel staves compared to the shaped skis of today.
sure, some trends are stupid and simply "follow the leader" but some trends are an improvement.

[e-RICHIE]

just because it was "good enough back then" doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.
take skis.
the straight skis that the mahre bros medalled with back in the day are garbage tuned barrel staves compared to the shaped skis of today.
sure, some trends are stupid and simply "follow the leader" but some trends are an improvement.


in an effort to make good frames more profitably and
with less skilled labor, industry turned to nonferrous
material. to keep the stiffness/strength playing field
even, shapes and diameters grew. in order to do what
jerk mentions in post 31, some makers went to integrated
headsets. that's how i view this situation.
i see the first part of this as an improvement but not
the second part.

[csm]

that's probably true.

[vaxn8r]

...
provo bound, and none of the jerk's bikes have a stupid integrated headset except for the incoming pinarello anyway and they are none the worse for it.


What's happening in Provo? Or is that a private matter between the two of you?

[e-RICHIE]

What's happening in Provo? Or is that a private matter between the two of you?


if it was just two of us, we would not go to provo.

[vaxn8r]

if it was just two of us, we would not go to provo.
Threesome?

[e-RICHIE]

Threesome?


atleastsome!

[manet]

What's happening in Provo? Or is that a private matter between the two of you?

http://www.maison-de-stuff.net/john/pictures/japan2002/b-mon/SANY0032.JPG

[bcm119]

atleastsome!

You're just going for the beer (http://www.salimsworld.com/pics/slcolympics/Polygamy%20Porter.jpg)

[STW]

just because it was "good enough back then" doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.
take skis.
the straight skis that the mahre bros medalled with back in the day are garbage tuned barrel staves compared to the shaped skis of today.
sure, some trends are stupid and simply "follow the leader" but some trends are an improvement.

Good example, and I was there 10 years ago doubting whether the new shaped skis were a real advance or just marketing magic to sell skis. Watching how many people bought shaped skis didn't really help answer the question because people buy, ski, and ride, all kinds of stupid stuff as readily as good stuff. Had to try them myself and they offered a different kind of turn that was an advance and certainly worth it for me for telemark. My old skis were still worked fine but the shaped skis allowed me to do something demonstrably different.

Don't think you could make the same case for that Cofidis fella's bike. That bike (even if it fit him) doesn't allow him to do anything different or better.

Guess my first post shouldn't be to disagree with something someone posted. Sorry if that's bad form. Learned about this forum over on iBob and noticed good stuff going on here.

[csm]

no I suppose it's not the same thing. just an example of where newer can be better. or not. we're going to have a "retro day" at the end of the season at the local hill. gonna drag out the neon clothes and the 205's and see if they can still be turned with the newer boots. although, I might even get the old boots on but they are 15 years old and boots that old have been known to self destruct.

[yeehawfactor]

tommorow morning i will once again be able to post that i drank beer last night.

[e-RICHIE]

You're just going for the beer (http://www.salimsworld.com/pics/slcolympics/Polygamy%20Porter.jpg)



hiccup yo

[yeehawfactor]

some of us are running tiagra
http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlny/original/pabst-thumb.jpg

[jerk]

some of us are running tiagra
http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlny/original/pabst-thumb.jpg


dude fock that,
they don't give it a blue ribbon for nothing.

jerk

[manet]

http://www.falkseed.com/images/Blue%20Ribbon%20300.jpg

[dirtdigger88]

http://cache.tias.com/stores/sestate/pictures/04020303a.jpg

only the best for my pals

welcome to the nut house STW-

Jason

[Climb01742]

Guess my first post shouldn't be to disagree with something someone posted. Sorry if that's bad form. Learned about this forum over on iBob and noticed good stuff going on here.

no worries. disagree at your pleasure. we sorta specialize in disagreement here. that's a big part of what makes it fun. and welcome.

[vandeda]

doof saw his pharmacist, and the caffeine has mellowed him out enough to write sensibly:

doof's gripe about the compact/integrated combo is that you have to use anatomic bars with the hoods rolled up to get three useable hand positions - the tops, hoods low enough so you can ride with a flat back with your hands on the hoods and some arm bend, and the "drops" or whatever you call those anatomic bendy bits under the brake hoods.

with round bars (not the deda campiones, as we now know from the jerk), you have four hand positions -- tops, hoods, hooks, drops. there is more vertical distance between the high and the low, but you have options. options are good. sprinting in the drops and hooks without banging your wrists is good. being able to change from the hooks to the drops while doing stupid stuff like riding all out for 90 minutes is good.


Maybe because I'm mainly a lowly commuter when I ride my bikes ... or just a moron ... well ... both :banana: BUT, I find that my anatomic bar (Salsa Bell Lap) gives me more positions than round bars. This is because I find the hooks unrideable as it causes pain discomfort. My hands were just not designed to bend in that awkward backwards position. And since my hands are small, the drops on the Salsa are plenty big enough to ride, and the angle between the "anatomic bendy" and drop is small enough that I can ride that too. So ... more options with the Salsa ... yeah, and there was much rejoicing :banana:

Though, I will never buy a bike with an integrated headset or an internal headset. Well, my mountain bike has an internal headset. It was before I knew better, and the design just sucks. Oh well, live and learn.

dan

[Dave]

doof saw his pharmacist, and the caffeine has mellowed him out enough to write sensibly:

doof's gripe about the compact/integrated combo is that you have to use anatomic bars with the hoods rolled up to get three useable hand positions - the tops, hoods low enough so you can ride with a flat back with your hands on the hoods and some arm bend, and the "drops" or whatever you call those anatomic bendy bits under the brake hoods.

with round bars (not the deda campiones, as we now know from the jerk), you have four hand positions -- tops, hoods, hooks, drops. there is more vertical distance between the high and the low, but you have options. options are good. sprinting in the drops and hooks without banging your wrists is good. being able to change from the hooks to the drops while doing stupid stuff like riding all out for 90 minutes is good.

it boils down to this: the change to integrated/compact+anatomic bars takes away a hand position, and solves no pressing mechanical problem. doof is not a retro grouch. doof likes crap that works and has a sensible reason for why it works (a c-50 with a dura-ace srm setup and some ADA wheels would work, and would have sound functional logic behind every high tech, high zoot part...and he could use deda 215 trads with the bike with only 15cm of spacer so it wouldn't retarded....).

whatever..gotts to get on the trainer for some 4x10 with doof's pal, the power tap...its 38 and raining....

Blaming the integrated headset for forcing the use of anatomic bars is a bit far fetched. Nearly all frames with integrated headsets have a head tube that extends just as far above the TT as any lugged steel frame head tube. On top of that, you can place a 1.5cm headset top section and another 3cm of spacer, if desired. The 1.5cm top section of the headset is just as tall as a conventional headset. From there, you can use a 96 degree stem to gain more than than 4cm in height, compared to the tradtional 73 degree stem. I'd consider this setup ugly, but so is a quill stem with the quill raised to the limit of it's travel. By my calculations this setup has the same height as a common quill stem raised to the max. height line.

The bottom line, is you can't blame integrated headsets for a significant loss of bar height. You only need to be smart enough to combine spacers and stem angle to achieve the needed height.

The rant about anatomic bars is also pretty lame. I agree with the comment about tradtional round bars making less sense. My palms won't bend into the curve of a traditional bar. I much prefer a sharper bend right below the brake hood, followed by a straight section of the correct angle, then a horizontal section. This bar design offers more comfort in the drops and all the positions of a tradtional bar. Personally, I never ride on the horizontal section near the ends, so I don't care if this position is available or not. If I want to ride on the flats in an aerodynamic position, I'd rather drape my palms over the knob on top of the ergo lever.

Here's a picture comparing the heights of traditional and integrated headsets.

http://www.campagnolo.com/pics/RE-headsets.jpg

[e-RICHIE]

The bottom line, is you can't blame integrated headsets for a significant loss of bar height. You only need to be smart enough to combine spacers and stem angle to achieve the needed height.

but you can blame them for the "sloper" aesthetic, yo.
now, based on what you said, wasn't the cart put before
the horse; the headset stack was reduced - so, they add
metal to the top of the head tube. that's how i see this.

[palincss]

but you can blame them for the "sloper" aesthetic, yo.
now, based on what you said, wasn't the cart put before
the horse; the headset stack was reduced - so, they add
metal to the top of the head tube. that's how i see this.

I suspect it had more to do with MTBs. There it makes sense: a level top tube doesn't leave you enough crotch clearance to deal with rutted terrain, or allow you to drop the saddle way down for one of those 'hanging your *** off the back' descents. And once people had gotten used to the look and even expected it, it didn't take long to make its way to road frames as well. Besides - doesn't it also reduce the number of frame sizes? Where it used to take a dozen sizes to cover 80% of the market, now it takes, what, three?

[Dr. Doofus]

The bottom line, is you can't blame integrated headsets for a significant loss of bar height. You only need to be smart enough to combine spacers and stem angle to achieve the needed height.



doof guesses he is dumb then

[e-RICHIE]

I suspect it had more to do with MTBs. There it makes sense: a level top tube doesn't leave you enough crotch clearance to deal with rutted terrain, or allow you to drop the saddle way down for one of those 'hanging your *** off the back' descents. And once people had gotten used to the look and even expected it, it didn't take long to make its way to road frames as well. Besides - doesn't it also reduce the number of frame sizes? Where it used to take a dozen sizes to cover 80% of the market, now it takes, what, three?


since the early 90s, nearly all road bicycle aesthetics
trickled down from the mtb era. when the mtb market
began, the road market died. by 1992 (?), the roles re-
versed, and the guys in charge were still mtb suits, their
product managers, and - more surprisingly, the sons of
the frame designers whose eponymous names all but
defined the road bicycle.

the 3-4 sizes fits all that you refer to was giant bicycle's
nascent attempt at streamlining inventories by having
fewer sized but more stems and the like. that is/was
lame; the bikes have to fit and they have to work.
assimilating a static efficient position simply by swap-
ping out a stem does not change where the front wheel
is, it only affects hand/upper body placement.

[dirtdigger88]

doof guesses he is dumb then

http://jenneink.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/smart_dumb.JPG

Jason

[yeehawfactor]

i drank beer last night

[Dr. Doofus]

doof ate salad and tuna steak last night

did tempo this morning

mrs. doof has a cold

doof is trying everything not to get it

he will fail

bikes with 73sta 56.5tt and 15cm integrated ht are stupid

[Fixed]

bro the worst thing about a sloping frame i.m.h.o. is you can't sit on the top tube .

[Dr. Doofus]

bro the worst thing about a sloping frame i.m.h.o. is you can't sit on the top tube .

can you balance a chick on the top tube?

you got messenger skills

so

you prolly can

[manet]

manet ate meatloaf wrapped in bacon with mashed potatoes, and spinach.

manet then ate a warm flourless chocolate cake with creme fresh.

he did is 90 minute flat ride, things got cold. it was nipple out.

manet's cat, buster went to the vet. his pee machine has sand in the gears.

[manet]

manet sets on his spectrums sloping TT.

chics dig the sloping thing.

[Dr. Doofus]

manet has a good life

doof hopes buster's pee pee gets better

doof just ate yogurt, strawberries, flax meal and an apple; tuna steak sandwich and salad; oats with banana, yogurt, and almonds (doof was hungry after ride # 1).

doof will now read and rest

doof will do ride # 2 later today

perhaps manet can fly down and provide doof with a decent dinner?

[manet]

manet can't find the airport:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/easterncaster/IMG_0469_2.jpg

[Fixed]

can you balance a chick on the top tube?

you got messenger skills

so

you prolly canbro mess.101 level t.t. she sits facing you, leans on the h. bars then she wraps her legs around you and you are stable to can go anywhere from here i.m.h.o. cheers :beer: