Are We Ready for Lance Armstrong's Return?

[Keith A]

I haven't read this article yet (Outside magazine), but thought I'd share it here...
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/the-current/inside-outside/Are-We-Ready-for-Lance-Armstrongs-Return.html

[Keith A]

So now that I've read the article, it's worth reading. Not sure what to think about LA being involved in cycling again, but I do agree with many of the points that the author makes.

[bicycletricycle]

I'm ready for lance, I think he should commentate.

[FlashUNC]

No, we're not.

The article points out -- but I think give short shrift -- to precisely what separate Armstrong from the pack: Calling his former masseuse a whore. Using Greg LeMond's horrible childhood sexual abuse as ammunition against him. The laundry list of names he had for Betsy Andreu.

That's all unconscionable.

Never mind the ridiculous argument that "doping leveled the playing field."

Just another example of Outside -- some of the good reporting they've done aside -- getting back on the Lance train.

[alessandro]

Keith, this is called clickbait. First, they put him on their cover 10 times. Then, they post up LA's flat-fixing vid, as noted here (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=147070) on the forum.

Then, the editor writes a 2,600-word justification about the fact that they gave LA a, er, podium, again. That is one of the lamest pieces of journalism I have ever seen.

Schmalz and Shen put it best:
1697879853

[MattTuck]

You think this is bad... you should go to boston.com

I swear, the top stories are always something based on top trends in social media... the desire to get clicks is ridiculous and totally changes the nature of what a 'news' site has become. I wonder if anyone is actually doing 'reporting' anymore. If you look right now, one of Boston.com's top trending stories is "which new england state watches the most porn?"

Hard hitting journalism. Film at 11. bomp chicka bowow...

[eBAUMANN]

FWIW, i enjoyed reading it. interesting to hear an informed opinion of where lance is at (mentally) a year down the road.

i also thought the video was pretty funny, definitely a step in the right direction for him.

[sparky33]

Keith, this is called clickbait.

Yawn. The fish are still sleeping. Better worms are needed.

[oldpotatoe]

So now that I've read the article, it's worth reading. Not sure what to think about LA being involved in cycling again, but I do agree with many of the points that the author makes.

From the article-

"If you want to know why a person keeps ending up on a magazine’s cover year after year, whether it’s Muhammad Ali on Sports Illustrated or George Clooney on Esquire, here’s a not-so-surprising answer: they sell newsstand copies"

And that's it in a nut-shell...it's about the almighty $.

I can never read or pay for an Outside rag again, easy.

[eBAUMANN]

You think this is bad... you should go to boston.com

I swear, the top stories are always something based on top trends in social media... the desire to get clicks is ridiculous and totally changes the nature of what a 'news' site has become. I wonder if anyone is actually doing 'reporting' anymore. If you look right now, one of Boston.com's top trending stories is "which new england state watches the most porn?"

Hard hitting journalism. Film at 11. bomp chicka bowow...

boston.com is a damn joke.

funny story: they profiled my teammate's instagram (i should just stop there, cause thats stupid enough in its own right) but in that profile - WHICH THEY PRINTED IN THE SUNDAY EDITION OF THE PAPER - they had an accompanying photo (of my teammate riding bmx), which they pulled off his instagram feed. What they didn't know was that I TOOK THAT PHOTO, not my teammate. It got printed and posted online with no credit and no compensation to me.

I asked a friend who shoots freelance for them go yell at the reporter responsible, that reporter informed him that "they do that stuff all the time, nobody has ever said anything before." In J-school I was taught that sh*t like that not only got you fired, but a black mark on your name in the industry.

Times done changed.

[sparky33]

one of Boston.com's top trending stories is "which new england state watches the most porn?"

I guessed incorrectly.

[BumbleBeeDave]

No.

:mad:

[Stephen2014]

All punishments become meaningless bull when in the modern day when punishment should be it's absolute toughest Contador ends up with a few months out. :(

[zmudshark]

I agree with my dear friend, Big Jonny:

https://twitter.com/bigJonny

Look, Lance Armstrong is a sociopath. But what he got in trouble for was PED use. They are two separate issues, yet intertwined.

[Keith A]

Keith, this is called clickbait...And I guess I took it and added to their clicks for this article :eek:

[pbarry]

A return suggests someone has been away. In this case he never was gone entirely, and certainly not far enough away or anywhere near long enough.

[Climb01742]

AA has a 12-step process. Where would you say lance is in the @ssholes anonymous process? until he does steps 8 and 9, he has not earned one iota of forgiveness and acceptance back. not one iota.

AA Step 8

"Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all."
Sometimes, people come to AA thinking there is no way back from their current situations. But, that isn't always the case. By making a list of all the people harmed by the alcoholism and being willing to try to make amends, a participant is accepting responsibility and understanding what has been wrong in his life. This step is more about the planning and acceptance of making amends rather than completing the task.

AA Step 9

"Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others." In many cases, admitting you're wrong, apologizing and informing a person that you're getting help is enough to have that person's support. However, sometimes people have been seriously hurt or are in a position where an apology or trying to make amends would make a situation worse. Through the group, decisions can be made as to who will be best served by trying to make amends and who may be more hurt by it than anything else. For instance, drunk driving accidents may be something a person wants to apologize for, but not all people will be ready to hear an apology.

[tiretrax]

There are enough (potential) commentators that have credibility. No need for him.

[Frankwurst]

A young girl was trudging along a mountain path, trying to reach her grandmother's house.
It was bitter cold, and the wind cut like a knife.
When she was within sight of her destination, she heard a rustle at her feet.
Looking down, she saw a snake.
Before she could move, the snake spoke to her.
He said, "I am about to die.
It is too cold for me up here, and I am freezing.
There is no food in these mountains, and I am starving.
Please put me under your coat and take me with you."
"No," replied the girl. "I know your kind. You are a rattlesnake.
If I pick you up, you will bite me, and your bite is poisonous."
"No, no," said the snake. "If you help me, you will be my best friend.
I will treat you differently."
The little girl sat down on a rock for a moment to rest and think things over.
She looked at the beautiful markings on the snake and had to admit that it was the most beautiful snake she had ever seen.
Suddenly, she said, "I believe you. I will save you.
All living things deserve to be treated with kindness."
The little girl reached over, put the snake gently under her coat and proceeded toward her grandmother's house.
Within a moment, she felt a sharp pain in her side.
The snake had bitten her.
"How could you do this to me?" she cried.
"You promised that you would not bite me, and I trusted you!"
"You knew what I was when you picked me up," hissed the snake as he slithered away.

(course in my version the woman then uses her last bits of strength to beat/stomp the crap out of the snake before she dies...saying "If I gotta go so do you!"......apparently I'm not all that nice.:beer:

[russd32]

Come on back buddy. Cycling is a dirty sport, if the sanctioning bodies really wanted to clean the sport up they would have done so. But, just like baseball they were enjoying the ratings too much to care about it until it was convenient. Either way, Lance was a doper who was faster than all the other dopers. In my opinion that doesn't make him any less of a stud.

[gasman]

AA has a 12-step process. Where would you say lance is in the @ssholes anonymous process? until he does steps 8 and 9, he has not earned one iota of forgiveness and acceptance back. not one iota.

AA Step 8

"Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all."
Sometimes, people come to AA thinking there is no way back from their current situations. But, that isn't always the case. By making a list of all the people harmed by the alcoholism and being willing to try to make amends, a participant is accepting responsibility and understanding what has been wrong in his life. This step is more about the planning and acceptance of making amends rather than completing the task.

AA Step 9

"Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others." In many cases, admitting you're wrong, apologizing and informing a person that you're getting help is enough to have that person's support. However, sometimes people have been seriously hurt or are in a position where an apology or trying to make amends would make a situation worse. Through the group, decisions can be made as to who will be best served by trying to make amends and who may be more hurt by it than anything else. For instance, drunk driving accidents may be something a person wants to apologize for, but not all people will be ready to hear an apology.

This ^^^^

I could accept his "return" if he had only been popped for doping but he ruined and tried to ruin too many people's lives for me to ever get over that hurdle. If he took any of the above steps I might be willing to listen but it will never happen. Yes, he was a heck of a rider but that's about it.

[MattTuck]

if his return is as a local wrench, fixing other people's bikes, I think I might be ok with that.

[mhespenheide]

"Return"?

Did he leave?

[Hank Scorpio]

Did Outside squeeze in the story between a story about stand up paddle boarding and extreme kite rollerblading? No thanks!

[El Chaba]

Nobody has shilled for Lance more than Outside magazine....

[shovelhd]

My wife gave me Cycle of Lies for Easter. Excellent read so far. What a screwed up family.

[jpw]

You think this is bad... you should go to boston.com

I swear, the top stories are always something based on top trends in social media... the desire to get clicks is ridiculous and totally changes the nature of what a 'news' site has become. I wonder if anyone is actually doing 'reporting' anymore. If you look right now, one of Boston.com's top trending stories is "which new england state watches the most porn?"

Hard hitting journalism. Film at 11. bomp chicka bowow...

'news' has always been driven by economics. See Chomsky.

Now it is just so much more obvious than before.

[cfox]

I'm not sure 'feeling badly about your actions' is a step in the twelve step program, but if it is, Lance needs to revisit that one.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrong-says-he-still-feels-like-tour-de-france-winner

I appreciate his candor, but he's not following the American model for hero redemption; lots of boo-hoos and heartfelt apologies required. If he can somehow restore his public standing while still being himself (a raging dick) then I will truly be impressed.

[oldpotatoe]

A young girl was trudging along a mountain path, trying to reach her grandmother's house.
It was bitter cold, and the wind cut like a knife.
When she was within sight of her destination, she heard a rustle at her feet.
Looking down, she saw a snake.
Before she could move, the snake spoke to her.
He said, "I am about to die.
It is too cold for me up here, and I am freezing.
There is no food in these mountains, and I am starving.
Please put me under your coat and take me with you."
"No," replied the girl. "I know your kind. You are a rattlesnake.
If I pick you up, you will bite me, and your bite is poisonous."
"No, no," said the snake. "If you help me, you will be my best friend.
I will treat you differently."
The little girl sat down on a rock for a moment to rest and think things over.
She looked at the beautiful markings on the snake and had to admit that it was the most beautiful snake she had ever seen.
Suddenly, she said, "I believe you. I will save you.
All living things deserve to be treated with kindness."
The little girl reached over, put the snake gently under her coat and proceeded toward her grandmother's house.
Within a moment, she felt a sharp pain in her side.
The snake had bitten her.
"How could you do this to me?" she cried.
"You promised that you would not bite me, and I trusted you!"
"You knew what I was when you picked me up," hissed the snake as he slithered away.



many variations of this story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog

Replies the scorpion, "it's my nature"...Lances nature to hurt, cheat, lie and remain in the spotlight.

[Mr. Pink]

I know how to fix a flat. If Lance does a whole series of videos telling me how to strip a bike down to the frame and then build it back, I might consider the "return".

[russd32]

I actually appreciate that he's not taking the standard PR redemption route. I can't stand how fake people are when they cry about how wrong they were. He wanted to win, plain and simple.

[pbarry]

A year spent working with Calfee's bamboo bike project in Africa would be the best thing LA could do for himself. No tweets from afar, no updates in Outside.

[BumbleBeeDave]

My wife gave me Cycle of Lies for Easter. Excellent read so far. What a screwed up family.

. . . HIS family, right? :p:p

Seriously, what a lame attempt by the Outside editor to attract clicks while making excuses for making a stupid video--in order to attract clicks in the first place.

Lance redeemed? Maybe in ten years after he does a variety of things behind the scenes--with NO public relations bullsh*t--to show he really has changed.

To me at this point, the remaining facts are . . .


He cheated, deliberately and hugely.
He profited hugely off of it.
He destroyed whoever he thought he could destroy to protect it.
There's no way he doesn't already have enough of his ill-gotten millions squirreled away somewhere so that he will never have to work another day in his life no matter how much he loses in lawsuits.
He has not given any evidence he's truly sorry.
He continues to avoid full cooperation in bringing down the big fish.


After what he's done, you don't "redeem" yourself by making a lame video and giving it a year. It takes a lot, LOT more than that.

BBD

[Mr. Pink]

I actually appreciate that he's not taking the standard PR redemption route.

Oh, I don't know about that. I'll bet you ten to one he has professional advice for plotting a return to cash flow by changing his persona in the media somehow. Looks like he called in a chit with a Rolling Stone writer to start.

As we all know, America has a very short memory when it comes to sports stars. Re: Michael Vick.

[FlashUNC]

Oh, I don't know about that. I'll bet you ten to one he has professional advice for plotting a return to cash flow by changing his persona in the media somehow. Looks like he called in a chit with a Rolling Stone writer to start.

As we all know, America has a very short memory when it comes to sports stars. Re: Michael Vick.

Difference is Michael did prison time and has, by all accounts, been a model citizen since then. Vick's uncompensated as a spokesman for the Humane Society's Anti-Dog Fighting program -- who he approached about doing work for them after getting out of prison -- and has repeatedly acknowledged the grave nature of his mistake.

http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/dogfighting/qa/vick_faq.html

Yes, the public image is part of all this, but Vick seems earnest in his work since getting out of prison and has done wonders in rehabilitating his image.

There's nothing about Lance's work over the last year-plus that strikes at all as remorse or genuine apologia. There's no earnestness to any of what he's doing.

[benb]

You guys done beating each other up over who gets to cast the first stone?

[PQJ]

Difference is Michael did prison time and has, by all accounts, been a model citizen since then. Vick's uncompensated as a spokesman for the Humane Society's Anti-Dog Fighting program -- who he approached about doing work for them after getting out of prison -- and has repeatedly acknowledged the grave nature of his mistake.

http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/dogfighting/qa/vick_faq.html

Yes, the public image is part of all this, but Vick seems earnest in his work since getting out of prison and has done wonders in rehabilitating his image.

There's nothing about Lance's work over the last year-plus that strikes at all as remorse or genuine apologia. There's no earnestness to any of what he's doing.

This. As a dog lover myself, I despise Vick. But he could teach lance a thing or two about contrition and redemption methinks.

[cfox]

I actually appreciate that he's not taking the standard PR redemption route. I can't stand how fake people are when they cry about how wrong they were. He wanted to win, plain and simple.

No one cares that he cheated to win, the issue is the degree to which he aggressively trampled powerless people. I don't care that he doesn't feel guilty about doping. A number of dopers, Landis included, said they'd dope again under the same circumstances. But Lance's lack of sorrow/contrition towards those he destroyed is hard to overcome. I agree with you and I appreciate his honesty, and I guess it's better than phony tears. But his honesty is scary because it shows an utter lack of empathy. Like I wrote before, if he makes a redemptive "comeback" without any contrition, that'll be his most impressive victory of all.

[cfox]

You guys done beating each other up over who gets to cast the first stone?

Blah, blah...yeah, no one is perfect, we get it. If anyone here has spent million$ to deliberately ruin innocent people, then yes, please withhold judgement.

[bobswire]

Blah, blah...yeah, no one is perfect, we get it. If anyone here has spent million$ to deliberately ruin innocent people, then yes, please withhold judgement.

Well he's paying for it now isn't he? Nor do I put him in the class of O.J. or the Koch brothers spending millions against the poorest and neediest of this country.
IMO Lance hardly rates a "meh" when compared to the truly evil of society.

[oldguy00]

Count me in with the crowd that doesn't care about the cheating. That is the way the sport was, and all of his competitors did the same thing in that regard. I absolutely consider him the official winner of those TDF's.

Now, the personal stuff, the attacks on people who went against him, yeah I don't know how he can erase that.
The only thing I can really think of is for him to come up with a $$ figure that each of them are out of because of him, and to repay it to them with a lot of interest and apologies. If he is still worth 50-100+ million after all the lawsuits, it probably wouldn't be that difficult to do? Probably wouldn't change a whole lot about what the general public thinks about him, but I'm sure the individuals he affected would appreciate it..

[sante pollastri]

yes,ready,why not?

[93legendti]

Well he's paying for it now isn't he? Nor do I put him in the class of O.J. or the Koch brothers spending millions against the poorest and neediest of this country.
IMO Lance hardly rates a "meh" when compared to the truly evil of society.

Yes, the Kochs should be killed - today. How DARE they support the arts, environment, charities, gay marriage, hospitals, research, education, wildlife, etc. Pure evil:


'CKF underwrites research and teaching at Brown, Mount Holyoke, Sarah Lawrence, University of Wisconsin at Madison, Vassar, and some 245 other colleges. This includes a speaker series, reading group, and essay contest at the University of Nevada Las Vegas in Harry Reid’s home state. Koch Industries (which offers same-sex spousal benefits to its legally married employees) also donated $814,000 to the Kansas State University Office of Diversity to assist “historically under-represented students.”

The Kochs fund cures and treatments:
David Koch survived a 1991 plane crash that killed 34 people, including everyone else in first class. He soon was diagnosed with, and then endured, prostate cancer. These challenges reinforced his passion for medical philanthropy. Among $506 million in such gifts, his major grants include:

1. $25 million to Houston’s M.D. Anderson Cancer Center to eliminate genitourinary malignancies.

2. $100 million for cancer research at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

3. $100 million for a new ambulatory care center at New York Presbyterian Hospital. This donation actually triggered an outbreak of mental illness among leftists who decried Koch’s nine-digit check.

The Kochs back the arts:
Elizabeth B. Koch, Charles’ wife, launched the Koch Cultural Trust. It has furnished $1.8 million in grants to artists and musicians with ties to Kansas.

David Koch supports PBS’ documentary series "Nova." He also is a paleo-philanthropist, having given $15 million to the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History for a Hall of Human Origins and another $35 million to update its fossil and dinosaur displays in Washington, D.C. New York’s American Museum of Natural History will enjoy a new Dinosaur Wing, thanks to David’s $20 million gift.

David also donated $100 million in 2008 to modernize the former New York State Theater at Manhattan’s Lincoln Center, home to the New York City Ballet and the New York City Opera.
The Kochs also steward the environment.
“Koch Industries, Inc. takes a leadership role in the promotion of biodiversity, wildlife habitat enhancement, land restoration and conservation education,” according to Wildlife Habitat Council president Robert Johnson. “Koch and its subsidiaries maintain Council-certified programs at 10 facilities throughout the United States,” including Montana’s 300,000-acre Matador Cattle Company Beaverhead Ranch.

Flint Hills Resources (a Koch company) helps Ducks Unlimited maintain 36,000 acres of waterfowl habitat on 116 Minnesota lakes. Thus, Ducks Unlimited gave the company its Emerald Teal Award.'

Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com http://www.newsmax.com/Murdock/Koch-Brothers-Philanthropy-Reid/2014/03/21/id/560986#ixzz2zuoLntvn


"TAMPA, Fla. – Billionaire industrialist David Koch, who is helping steer millions of dollars to elect Mitt Romney and congressional Republicans, on Thursday told POLITICO he disagrees with the GOP’s stance on gay marriage and believes the U.S. needs to consider raising taxes to balance the budget."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/80483.html#ixzz2zumz33vZ

"The (Koch) family has a family foundation that devotes hundreds of millions to charities, offers tens of thousands of people a chance to prosper, and is the epitome of entrepreneurship, which should be celebrated. The charities that they donate to include a recent $100 million donation to New York-Presbyterian Hospital and charities devoted to the arts, including the American Ballet Theatre, the New York City Ballet, the Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and the American Museum of Natural History."

http://jewishvoiceny.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=7189:thank-you-to-the-koch-brothers&Itemid=296

[cfox]

Well he's paying for it now isn't he? Nor do I put him in the class of O.J. or the Koch brothers spending millions against the poorest and neediest of this country.
IMO Lance hardly rates a "meh" when compared to the truly evil of society.

It's not a contest to see who is most evil. We can have opinions on more than one person, in varying degrees of annoyance*/anger, based on the degree of scumminess in the things they've done. Just because Lance didn't kill anyone doesn't mean he should be off the hook for some of the crap he pulled. I'm ok with being judgmental towards Lance.

*Lance falls into the annoyance category for me

[Mr. Pink]

Yes, the Kochs should be killed - today. How DARE they support the arts, environment, charities, gay marriage, hospitals, research, education, wildlife, etc. Pure evil:


'CKF underwrites research and teaching at Brown, Mount Holyoke, Sarah Lawrence, University of Wisconsin at Madison, Vassar, and some 245 other colleges. This includes a speaker series, reading group, and essay contest at the University of Nevada Las Vegas in Harry Reid’s home state. Koch Industries (which offers same-sex spousal benefits to its legally married employees) also donated $814,000 to the Kansas State University Office of Diversity to assist “historically under-represented students.”

The Kochs fund cures and treatments:
David Koch survived a 1991 plane crash that killed 34 people, including everyone else in first class. He soon was diagnosed with, and then endured, prostate cancer. These challenges reinforced his passion for medical philanthropy. Among $506 million in such gifts, his major grants include:

1. $25 million to Houston’s M.D. Anderson Cancer Center to eliminate genitourinary malignancies.

2. $100 million for cancer research at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

3. $100 million for a new ambulatory care center at New York Presbyterian Hospital. This donation actually triggered an outbreak of mental illness among leftists who decried Koch’s nine-digit check.

The Kochs back the arts:
Elizabeth B. Koch, Charles’ wife, launched the Koch Cultural Trust. It has furnished $1.8 million in grants to artists and musicians with ties to Kansas.

David Koch supports PBS’ documentary series "Nova." He also is a paleo-philanthropist, having given $15 million to the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History for a Hall of Human Origins and another $35 million to update its fossil and dinosaur displays in Washington, D.C. New York’s American Museum of Natural History will enjoy a new Dinosaur Wing, thanks to David’s $20 million gift.

David also donated $100 million in 2008 to modernize the former New York State Theater at Manhattan’s Lincoln Center, home to the New York City Ballet and the New York City Opera.
The Kochs also steward the environment.
“Koch Industries, Inc. takes a leadership role in the promotion of biodiversity, wildlife habitat enhancement, land restoration and conservation education,” according to Wildlife Habitat Council president Robert Johnson. “Koch and its subsidiaries maintain Council-certified programs at 10 facilities throughout the United States,” including Montana’s 300,000-acre Matador Cattle Company Beaverhead Ranch.

Flint Hills Resources (a Koch company) helps Ducks Unlimited maintain 36,000 acres of waterfowl habitat on 116 Minnesota lakes. Thus, Ducks Unlimited gave the company its Emerald Teal Award.'

Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com http://www.newsmax.com/Murdock/Koch-Brothers-Philanthropy-Reid/2014/03/21/id/560986#ixzz2zuoLntvn


"TAMPA, Fla. – Billionaire industrialist David Koch, who is helping steer millions of dollars to elect Mitt Romney and congressional Republicans, on Thursday told POLITICO he disagrees with the GOP’s stance on gay marriage and believes the U.S. needs to consider raising taxes to balance the budget."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/80483.html#ixzz2zumz33vZ

"The (Koch) family has a family foundation that devotes hundreds of millions to charities, offers tens of thousands of people a chance to prosper, and is the epitome of entrepreneurship, which should be celebrated. The charities that they donate to include a recent $100 million donation to New York-Presbyterian Hospital and charities devoted to the arts, including the American Ballet Theatre, the New York City Ballet, the Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and the American Museum of Natural History."

http://jewishvoiceny.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=7189:thank-you-to-the-koch-brothers&Itemid=296

Lance has gotta look up this guy's PR firm. They are good.

[gasman]

Let's not get sidetracked, this is a thread about Lance. One of many of course.

[Mr. Pink]

Yeah, but, when you talk about Lance, like any celebrity, you really aren't talking about Lance, because none of us know Lance. We only know the public image of Lance, carefully cultivated by himself and highly paid professionals. Well, yeah, then a wench got thrown in those works, but, it looks like he may be using those same media techniques to resurrect from that wreckage. So, a larger conversation about public perception, I think, is warranted.

[gasman]

Yeah, but, when you talk about Lance, like any celebrity, you really aren't talking about Lance, because none of us know Lance. We only know the public image of Lance, carefully cultivated by himself and highly paid professionals. Well, yeah, then a wench got thrown in those works, but, it looks like he may be using those same media techniques to resurrect from that wreckage. So, a larger conversation about public perception, I think, is warranted.

True but the thread is starting to have political undertones. We can have a discussion about the larger picture without politics.

[Mr. Pink]

True but the thread is starting to have political undertones. We can have a discussion about the larger picture without politics.

Hey, he did lead the U.S. Postal team.

[pavel]

No one cares that he cheated to win, the issue is the degree to which he aggressively trampled powerless people. I don't care that he doesn't feel guilty about doping. A number of dopers, Landis included, said they'd dope again under the same circumstances. But Lance's lack of sorrow/contrition towards those he destroyed is hard to overcome. I agree with you and I appreciate his honesty, and I guess it's better than phony tears. But his honesty is scary because it shows an utter lack of empathy. Like I wrote before, if he makes a redemptive "comeback" without any contrition, that'll be his most impressive victory of all.


Mark my words, he will be running for political office.

[Climb01742]

Long ago, for me, the lance saga stopped being about cheating. Cheating, within the context of pro cycling, can be understood and for many, forgiven. What can't be forgiven or explained away is the wanton, repeated, unnecessarily vindictive destruction of lives and careers to keep a lie and a gravy train and an ego intact.

PR can't repair lives or restart careers. The 'everybody cheated' defense and rationale can't come within a million miles of explaining his DB behavior. And yes, we've all made mistakes, but we all haven't destroyed lives for personal gain. That's the difference.

[bthomas515]

I loved the video...There are plenty of guys who were caught still riding in the pro peleton, and no they didn't cheat to win as many titles as he did but we still cheer for them week in and week out. I don't know if we are ready now, but hopefully someday soon...

[Ray]

If and when Betsy Andreu forgives him, the rest of us should too. Until then, he's still human scum in my book.

I don't care about the doping even a little bit. Everyone did it and whether it was a really level field or not, it was a fully accepted part of the sport. But you don't treat people like that. She had the balls to stand up to him right along and he was still ripping her as recently as his Oprah interview. He's gonna have to make some serious amends and apologies to get back into her good graces - he'd probably have to ACTUALLY change because I don't think she'd ever fall for his his charm or PR. I'll take her as a pretty good barometer of when he may ever be worth listening to again...

-Ray

[Keith A]

Long ago, for me, the lance saga stopped being about cheating. Cheating, within the context of pro cycling, can be understood and for many, forgiven. What can't be forgiven or explained away is the wanton, repeated, unnecessarily vindictive destruction of lives and careers to keep a lie and a gravy train and an ego intact.

PR can't repair lives or restart careers. The 'everybody cheated' defense and rationale can't come within a million miles of explaining his DB behavior. And yes, we've all made mistakes, but we all haven't destroyed lives for personal gain. That's the difference.This is it for me too.

[e-RICHIE]

If and when Betsy Andreu forgives him, the rest of us should too. Until then, he's still human scum in my book.

I don't care about the doping even a little bit. Everyone did it and whether it was a really level field or not, it was a fully accepted part of the sport. But you don't treat people like that. She had the balls to stand up to him right along and he was still ripping her as recently as his Oprah interview. He's gonna have to make some serious amends and apologies to get back into her good graces - he'd probably have to ACTUALLY change because I don't think she'd ever fall for his his charm or PR. I'll take her as a pretty good barometer of when he may ever be worth listening to again...

-Ray
Is it the surname, the initials, or maybe both atmo?! I agree with everything in Ray Sachs' post.
It encompasses all the talking points about the current media blitz, and what preceded it too.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool::cool::cool:
;););)
:rolleyes::):)

[Mr. Pink]

One thing you have to keep in mind is that most Americans could care less about bike racing, but they do have an opinion about Lance, mostly negative. Mention Betsy Andreu, and you'll get a blank stare from 99.9% of the public he wants to change the minds of. They all see him as a cancer survivor who won an exotic sport in France and then got caught for cheating, but, that cancer survivor thing could be milked to erase the cheating thing, if he's skillful and lucky at it. Should be interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if we see him resurrected somehow.

I don't want to step into politics again, (although it's hard to avoid) but watch the whole Christie Bridgegate thing happening right now in Jersey. Watch how the Fat Man does his three card monte thing and says "Wha, Wha, me? I never knew a thing! It was that hysterical woman I hired!" when it is so obvious that he's responsible, ultimately. But, get the right media PR behind you, and the public believing something, and, maybe you too can be president someday. It's amazing to watch. People are so gullible, and can be turned in whatever direction you want them to go, if you just know how to tug the right string.

“No one in this world, so far as I know—and I have searched the record for years, and employed agents to help me—has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people.”

H.L. Mencken

[shovelhd]

Can we PLEASE keep the one sided unrelated politics out of this thread?

I watched that video and saw a broken man who still believes that everything he did was right. It was carefully crafted to evoke pity, which is usually the first step of the PR resurrection campaign. Textbook.

[4Rings6Stars]

...

[CunegoFan]

If and when Betsy Andreu forgives him, the rest of us should too. Until then, he's still human scum in my book.


Betsy is too busy enjoying her time as a professional martyr to accept an apology. She is as vindictive and crazy as Armstrong.

[T.J.]

I love Lance threads. The irony of people saying they want Lance to go away ....for twenty pages.

[cfox]

Betsy is too busy enjoying her time as a professional martyr to accept an apology. She is as vindictive and crazy as Armstrong.

Yeah, she's milking it a bit, but if some rich, powerful d-bag that I KNEW was guilty was threatening my ability to support my family, then I'd be vindictive and crazy, too. I'd guess she views any air-time she gets as partial reparations.

I love Lance threads. The irony of people saying they want Lance to go away ....for twenty pages.

so true...and guilty as charged

[soulspinner]

Long ago, for me, the lance saga stopped being about cheating. Cheating, within the context of pro cycling, can be understood and for many, forgiven. What can't be forgiven or explained away is the wanton, repeated, unnecessarily vindictive destruction of lives and careers to keep a lie and a gravy train and an ego intact.

PR can't repair lives or restart careers. The 'everybody cheated' defense and rationale can't come within a million miles of explaining his DB behavior. And yes, we've all made mistakes, but we all haven't destroyed lives for personal gain. That's the difference.

+1.... well said

[e-RICHIE]

Yeah, she's milking it a bit, but if some rich, powerful d-bag that I KNEW was guilty was threatening my ability to support my family, then I'd be vindictive and crazy, too. I'd guess she views any air-time she gets as partial reparations.

I'd have to agree. She can go on a bit, but she did spend
a long. long time being the bug on Lance's windshield atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

;):p;)
;):p;)
;):rolleyes::)

[russd32]

Betsy is too busy enjoying her time as a professional martyr to accept an apology. She is as vindictive and crazy as Armstrong.

Thank you. We don't know that she was 100% innocent either. Unless anyone was there at the time I don't think we probably have the entire story. They were ALL after the same thing, winning and money. I'd have a hard time believing that everyone but Lance was a helpless angel who was only wanting to the do the friendly and right thing. People love to root for the underdog and hate the victor.

Don't believe me....the Cubs still have fans, MSNBC still has viewers....

[Stephen2014]

Come on back buddy. Cycling is a dirty sport, if the sanctioning bodies really wanted to clean the sport up they would have done so. But, just like baseball they were enjoying the ratings too much to care about it until it was convenient. Either way, Lance was a doper who was faster than all the other dopers. In my opinion that doesn't make him any less of a stud.
Two words to sum that up "pat mcquaid".
Someone who did what he did as a cyclist became head of the governing body!!!!!!

[bluesea]

Thank you. We don't know that she was 100% innocent either. Unless anyone was there at the time I don't think we probably have the entire story. They were ALL after the same thing, winning and money. I'd have a hard time believing that everyone but Lance was a helpless angel who was only wanting to the do the friendly and right thing. People love to root for the underdog and hate the victor.

Don't believe me....the Cubs still have fans, MSNBC still has viewers....



Good points.

[FlashUNC]

Thank you. We don't know that she was 100% innocent either. Unless anyone was there at the time I don't think we probably have the entire story. They were ALL after the same thing, winning and money. I'd have a hard time believing that everyone but Lance was a helpless angel who was only wanting to the do the friendly and right thing. People love to root for the underdog and hate the victor.

Don't believe me....the Cubs still have fans, MSNBC still has viewers....

Yes, but despite those less than altruistic motives for all involved, only one guy of the bunch decided the best course of action was to sue people oblivion, call people all sorts of ridiculous names and make spurious and ridiculous accusations about anyone who publicly questioned the Cancer Jesus story.

So I buy that nobody involved in this is pure, but this really ain't about the doping for me and others. This is about douchebaggery on a grand and epic scale. If you can't see the difference between even Hincapie and someone like Lance, well, I dunno what to tell you.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . This is about douchebaggery on a grand and epic scale.

Well said.

BBD

[professerr]

Betsy is too busy enjoying her time as a professional martyr to accept an apology. She is as vindictive and crazy as Armstrong.

Hardly. She was the only sane one in the room then, and she has earned -- for the right reasons -- the public's interest now.

[onekgguy]

Are we not engaging in mob-mentality here? Let the guy do whatever punishment he's faced with and handle whatever lawsuits result from his actions. Apart from that, what more do you all want?

Kevin g

[Walter]

Are we not engaging in mob-mentality here? Let the guy do whatever punishment he's faced with and handle whatever lawsuits result from his actions. Apart from that, what more do you all want?

Kevin g

If all someone is doing is dealing with punishment and lawsuits, you would be correct. When they engage in a PR campaign and make public comments, folks have every right to react and respond.

[Seramount]

Are we not engaging in mob-mentality here? Let the guy do whatever punishment he's faced with and handle whatever lawsuits result from his actions. Apart from that, what more do you all want?

exhibiting a shred of genuine contrition would be good.

but, if you're a superstar jock like Kobe, Lance, or a dozen others of their ilk, then you can act like a total douche, retain your millions, and then smirk at the little people who were your adoring fans and think that a sincere apology and some demonstrable proof that you actually regret your actions is in order.

[saab2000]

exhibiting a shred of genuine contrition would be good.

but, if you're a superstar jock like Kobe, Lance, or a dozen others of their ilk, then you can act like a total douche, retain your millions, and then smirk at the little people who were your adoring fans and think that a sincere apology and some demonstrable proof that you actually regret your actions is in order.

I think Lance could be virtually wiped out by this, at least financially. And I don't think he's ever going to be 'relevant' again.

At the end of the day, cycling is a fringe sport, even at the highest levels at which LA played the game.

Remember Marion Jones? Track and field is also fringe, except to those who participate. She cheated and paid a huge price. I think over time, Lance will pay a similarly huge price and has few friends.

It's better to have friends than enemies in life and he's spent a lifetime cultivating enemies and not friends.

As you said, the only road back is to begin to demonstrate genuine contrition and I'm not sure he's capable of that. His apologies ring hollow and he's fighting to keep his money right now. If he were to lay it all on the table and really apologize and pay back those he cheated out of money he'd make that first step towards being relevant. I'm not sure he's capable of that level of humility.

[shovelhd]

Are we not engaging in mob-mentality here? Let the guy do whatever punishment he's faced with and handle whatever lawsuits result from his actions. Apart from that, what more do you all want?

Kevin g

I want him to go away. Just go away.

[54ny77]

If he does landscaping, I'll hire him. $20/hr, cash. I need some dirt piles moved.

[jbrainin]

One day, Lance will find himself golfing with OJ.

[paulh]

One day, Lance will find himself golfing with OJ.

Looking for the real killers and the real dopers.

[oldguy00]

Always did like LA's Espy monologue.. :)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xa2e9_monologue-lance-espy_news

[Jgrooms]

Betsy is too busy enjoying her time as a professional martyr to accept an apology. She is as vindictive and crazy as Armstrong.


Bingo!

[Jgrooms]

One day, Lance will find himself golfing with OJ.


Playing the game and bullying people to maintain the lie = murderer?

[Jgrooms]

Yeah, she's milking it a bit, but if some rich, powerful d-bag that I KNEW was guilty was threatening my ability to support my family, then I'd be vindictive and crazy, too. I'd guess she views any air-time she gets as partial reparations.







so true...and guilty as charged


Hey I agreed with this until I saw her diatribe on how the doping caused his cancer, so thus he deserved that and in effect can't deserve any credit for his work there.

There is no evidence that PEDs cause cancer. If they did the incidences of endurance athletes w/ cancer would be...well off the charts.

Lot's of lists in this thread citing levels of Dbaggery, but little mention of the foundation. The positive was/is real.

[Jgrooms]

Yep its a self serving article by both. However, if you don't think LA will be a 'public figure' in the future, you are foolin' yourself.

I for one would love to see him do racing commentary. I also feel robbed of the op to see him destroy the pro tri geek mythology.

[Mr. Pink]

Lot's of lists in this thread citing levels of Dbaggery, but little mention of the foundation. The positive was/is real.

You are very naive about the purpose of a lot of foundations. I would say that, overall, many are massive tax dodges and PR funds disguised as do good and feel good organizations. Google, or even search in the forum about the charade that Lance performed as he used his foundation to create an image for himself and enrich others, and maybe even himself.
Or, ask yourself, why isn't he doing cancer do good PR right now? I know his foundation fell apart, but, hell, he's got nothing better to do, why not get into America's good graces with a little charity on his part? You know, an appearance here, a speech there........

[William]

You are very naive about the purpose of a lot of foundations. I would say that, overall, many are massive tax dodges and PR funds disguised as do good and feel good organizations. Google, or even search in the forum about the charade that Lance performed as he used his foundation to create an image for himself and enrich others, and maybe even himself.
Or, ask yourself, why isn't he doing cancer do good PR right now? I know his foundation fell apart, but, hell, he's got nothing better to do, why not get into America's good graces with a little charity on his part? You know, an appearance here, a speech there........


Yeah, imo, I think the video posted in the Hincapie thread is a good example of how that cloak was used, and how tightly it was worn...








William

[TBDSeattle]

Yeah, imo, I think the video posted in the Hincapie thread is a good example of how that cloak was used, and how tightly it was worn...


+1

He created a Catch 22: if you attacked him then you were against him and for cancer.

[Elefantino]

+1

He created a Catch 22: if you attacked him then you were against him and for cancer.
And you kicked puppies and hated America.

[PQJ]

You are very naive about the purpose of a lot of foundations. I would say that, overall, many are massive tax dodges and PR funds disguised as do good and feel good organizations. Google, or even search in the forum about the charade that Lance performed as he used his foundation to create an image for himself and enrich others, and maybe even himself.
Or, ask yourself, why isn't he doing cancer do good PR right now? I know his foundation fell apart, but, hell, he's got nothing better to do, why not get into America's good graces with a little charity on his part? You know, an appearance here, a speech there........

Lance's return was, according to him, for the purpose of raising cancer awareness. Either what he actually did for the cancer cause itself got short shrift by the media, or it never happened. But what I remember from that tour was what a crappy teammate he was, what an attention-seeking a$$hole he was, how he couldn't wait to have his Radio Shack sponsorship steak dinner/announcement until after the tour but instead had to hold it on the day of the last TT, and how Nike's chalkbot got almost as much airtime as Lance.

[Elefantino]

Lance's return was, according to him, for the purpose of raising cancer awareness. Either what he actually did for the cancer cause itself got short shrift by the media, or it never happened. But what I remember from that tour was what a crappy teammate he was, what an attention-seeking a$$hole he was, how he couldn't wait to have his Radio Shack sponsorship steak dinner/announcement until after the tour but instead had to hold it on the day of the last TT, and how Nike's chalkbot got almost as much airtime as Lance.
He has always been about him. When he was flying high, it was great for cancer support to be in his slipstream and it really did do a lot of good (while at the same time doing a lot of commercially crass stuff that most of us didn't pay attention to or didn't know about). Now he has no slipstream and cancer support is on its own. But I would not take back the time I raised money for the LAF/Livestrong because it wasn't FOR him.

[54ny77]

i'm ready for a cage match fight against him and all the girls he's loved before.....

jerry springer could host, matthew mcconaughey could be the ref.

that would be pay per view gold.

[cfox]

You are very naive about the purpose of a lot of foundations. I would say that, overall, many are massive tax dodges and PR funds disguised as do good and feel good organizations. Google, or even search in the forum about the charade that Lance performed as he used his foundation to create an image for himself and enrich others, and maybe even himself.
Or, ask yourself, why isn't he doing cancer do good PR right now? I know his foundation fell apart, but, hell, he's got nothing better to do, why not get into America's good graces with a little charity on his part? You know, an appearance here, a speech there........

I think your cynicism covers your own naivety. You think people don't understand the nature of big philanthropy? Who cares if some billionaire's ego gets stroked or taxes get lowered as long as the new hospital wing gets built? It's not as Machiavellian as it seems, it's just the way human nature works. The world isn't ice cream and puppy dogs. Many, many people understood that Livestrong was a PR edifice, but also understood it accomplished a lot of good things, so they lived with it.

And as far as nowadays, Armstrong is still actively involved, to the degree he can be, in cancer "stuff". And the public charity stuff? Do you really think any public charity wants to have him out in front?

I think Lance is a deplorable turd, but I know Livestrong has done some great stuff, regardless of the tangential.

[shovelhd]

Cycle of Lies. It explores his personality to depths that I have not read before. I'm only 1/3 of he way through.

[Mr. Pink]

I think your cynicism covers your own naivety. You think people don't understand the nature of big philanthropy? Who cares if some billionaire's ego gets stroked or taxes get lowered as long as the new hospital wing gets built? It's not as Machiavellian as it seems, it's just the way human nature works. The world isn't ice cream and puppy dogs. Many, many people understood that Livestrong was a PR edifice, but also understood it accomplished a lot of good things, so they lived with it.

And as far as nowadays, Armstrong is still actively involved, to the degree he can be, in cancer "stuff". And the public charity stuff? Do you really think any public charity wants to have him out in front?

I think Lance is a deplorable turd, but I know Livestrong has done some great stuff, regardless of the tangential.


Why am I a cynic? There are many reasons, but, here, I'll tell you about one. Today, driving home from work, I heard on the radio that Don Sterling (you know, that cretin who owns the Clippers. It's the big sports story right now) was just about, I mean by days, to receive a, get this, I kid you not, a lifetime achievement award from the L.A. chapter of the NAACP. Yup. It's true. I mean, this isn't the first time he's said something pretty racist. But, hey, he's been writing checks for years, just to, you know, show people he likes black folks, I guess. And, hey, they took it, and kissed him on the cheek every time, and, I guess they figured he deserved the grand prize, when they looked at the total. Now they're blubbering to the press, trying to save face until all of this goes away.

That one kills me. Everyone is so dirty in the whole affair, including the players and coaches accepting a paycheck.
It's one thing to run a business and get rich off of it, but when money flows through tax free foundations and organizations, the hyenas show up in droves, eventually. I've known a few people in non profits, and they always made me laugh about that oxymoron. Non profits. right.