Tactics

[Lewis Moon]

I’ve been analyzing a couple of my races/KOM attempts and I see a pattern as to where I lose a big chunk of time/go off the back: it’s at the point where a climb turns into a descent. I’m a big guy (6’5”, 180) and I’m usually clawing my way up climbs, trying to stay with the skinnys, by hook or by crook, so I’m pretty blown at the top, well in excess of my FTP and my HR is pretty close to max. If you take the profile of my last race, where the climb was pretty short (~1.5k+) and moderate (~5-7%) with a much longer descent , would I have been better off staying closer to FTP on the climb so I would be fresher for the downhill festivities… even if a gap formed? I roll well otherwise and was able to keep the gap from widening over the rest of the course, even doing a solo TT, but I never got the gap back.
Basically I’m looking for how best to balance effort/recovery with the body I have now. The training is happening, but the races keep coming.

[Hls2k6]

This totally depends on the particular climb and the field.

Sometimes everyone else is also redlining the climb or they just give up the attack when they crest the hill. Sometimes it's the exact opposite. For example, if I'm with the leaders on a climb, my plan is usually to drill it as we crest and hope no one wants to come (especially if the crest comes to a flat or gradual descent).

At the end of the day, however, you're probably picking your poison. Either risk letting the gap get too big on the climb or risk blowing up by avoiding it. In the majority of instances, especially on a key climb in a race, the latter is probably more-often correct.

Two things that will help: 1) over-unders (do 15-25 minutes of alternating intervals at slightly above and below threshhold (e.g., 2-3 minutes at 110-115%; followed by 1-2 minutes at high tempo 90%); 2) leg speed intervals (often, people generate power better uphill than down in part because of leg-speed limitations) ) Doing threshhold intervals on rolling and downhill terrain helps with this part, too.

[Lewis Moon]

This totally depends on the particular climb and the field.

Sometimes everyone else is also redlining the climb or they just give up the attack when they crest the hill. Sometimes it's the exact opposite. For example, if I'm with the leaders on a climb, my plan is usually to drill it as we crest and hope no one wants to come (especially if the crest comes to a flat or gradual descent).

At the end of the day, however, you're probably picking your poison. Either risk letting the gap get too big on the climb or risk blowing up by avoiding it. In the majority of instances, especially on a key climb in a race, the latter is probably more-often correct.

Two things that will help: 1) over-unders (do 15-25 minutes of alternating intervals at slightly above and below threshhold (e.g., 2-3 minutes at 110-115%; followed by 1-2 minutes at high tempo 90%); 2) leg speed intervals (often, people generate power better uphill than down in part because of leg-speed limitations) ) Doing threshhold intervals on rolling and downhill terrain helps with this part, too.

This is my thought, too many variables...and if I had a reasonable TT partner I probably could have caught back on. As it was I rolled the one I got off my wheel after 5 miles.

[EDS]

You are probably doing this already, but if climbing is not your thing (not mine either) than better to be towards the front of the peloton at the foot of the climb so you can drift back through the pack but still hopefully be in contact by the top. Easier said then done of course, at least that is my experience.

[shovelhd]

Also known as sag climbing.

Pacing yourself on climbs takes practice. I haven't won a road race, and why is probably because I do just that. I will let the leaders go and try and catch back on rather than blow up. A lot of the time I can catch back on if nobody is really drilling it on the front. I pace by wattage, HR, and RPE. Next time try and stay with the group as you approach the summit, back off a bit, then try and match the surge over the top. That surge is what usually gets you.

[FlashUNC]

There is the old Oscar Freire move -- try to get a gap before the climb so you come over the top with the front group as they catch you.

I'd generally agree that getting to the top totally blown and unable to take advantage of what genetics gave you on the downhill isn't the best course of action either. But I do think, as others said, it's a bit of picking your poison.

[Peter P.]

As has already been pointed out; there are too many factors to consider so you must make a decision based on a race by race basis.

The reason is the course will have a dominant effect on your strategy.

So you know your strengths and weaknesses. Good.

If there is more than one hill, you may go easy up the early hills knowing your body type will allow you to catch back on without a lot of stress.

If the hill(s) come late in the race, you may need to risk blowing up to stay in contact because the sprint finish may come shortly thereafter.

There are dozens more scenarios but you get the idea. The fun thing about racing is coming up with a plan, executing that plan, and seeing what worked and what didn't.

2 things I would do are throw out the wattmeter and HR monitor on race day. Too many other factors will influence the outcome of your effort. You've got to be able to make gut decisions in the instant instead of racing based on what the numbers tell you. When you go up "that hill" you have to be able to instantly assess your effort level and recognize that you'll be tapped out by the top, making the chase back on more difficult.

[MattTuck]

There is the old Oscar Freire move -- try to get a gap before the climb so you come over the top with the front group as they catch you.



Yes! Race from the front, like a champion. If you can get into a break, that would seem to favor your abilities.

[Hls2k6]

throw out the wattmeter

Great post. Except for that crazy talk above. That's just blasphemy.

[redir]

You are probably doing this already, but if climbing is not your thing (not mine either) than better to be towards the front of the peloton at the foot of the climb so you can drift back through the pack but still hopefully be in contact by the top. Easier said then done of course, at least that is my experience.

Yup, the pack slide.

[gianni]

My $.02.

It's mental with better emphasis on pacing/expectations.

Best time to attack (or hardest point on a climb) is at the top of climb with false flat or over the top where everyone is full gas trying to make the climb. If you make/force a selection at this point, you can conserve momentum and recover --maybe?-- on the descent, but if you make the break you will still need to ride or your effort is wasted.

I would suggest that you build-in some interval training to mimic this effort with 1-2 minutes going full gas after threshold.

Once you make the selection a couple of times you will gain more confidence.

[gmcampy]

As a novice Cat 5 road racer this topic and the discussion is quite timely. I had the same experience last weekend at my second RR ever. I lost the main group on the climb, got back on with a fast catch group of 6 or so and was able to ride with them for 10 miles but we never saw the leaders again and I backed down before I blew up and to not DNF.

[Tandem Rider]

Race near the front. Don't let yourself drift back, you aren't going any easier unless you are going a lot slower. Don't let the gap open. You will be at or near max. That's ok, so is everyone else. That way you will be on the correct side of any selection that may happen. Besides, if I see any strong guys drifting back it's time to punch the gas.

[Gummee]

Yup, the pack slide.

aka sprinter shuffle

I do it as often as I can. I'm very allergic to hills. Give me a nice velodrome any day.

M

[wasfast]

Race near the front. Don't let yourself drift back, you aren't going any easier unless you are going a lot slower. Don't let the gap open. You will be at or near max. That's ok, so is everyone else. That way you will be on the correct side of any selection that may happen. Besides, if I see any strong guys drifting back it's time to punch the gas.

Based on the initial information, he can't do this. Even if his power threshold was the same as the other riders, he (like me) is giving away power/weight ratio to the smaller riders. He's having to ride in the red to hang on. SOMEWHERE, you have to recover from the red efforts.

I'd vote for the "be at the front-ish" for the climb and stick closer to threshold, at the minimum for the first 1/2- 2/3's. Then use the descent to claw back. It's easier to make time there than flaming out on the climb trying to stay on.

Ultimately, you'll need to drop some weight even if you're able to improve your threshold for hilly courses. Physics won't be denied.

Option B is to stick with flatter RR courses and TT's.

[nooneline]

you guys are ALL wrong about that move, it's called the Fat Guy Fade.

[Ti Designs]

First of all, this thread should take place on bikes, on the road, in race condition - everyone knows everything 'bout racing until the pedals start turning...

Tactics are about bringing the race to your own strengths. I coach some riders who have amazing recovery, they are the ones who get into small breaks and keep the pace too hard for the others to recover before they hit the front again (have two medals from nationals to show from that one simple tactic). With sprinters you pretty much need a teammate with you to keep you out of the wind at all times, even when you need to move up. For bigger guys and hills it's a matter of going on the offensive early. What you've described is survival mode, it's how you make the time cut on a stage race so you can crush them in the crit the next day. If you're looking for results on the day, you have to do the racing before it's out of your control. Go on the attack before the hill, then gauge the results of that attack. If you look back and everyone is still there, you're in trouble. If there's a gap you have decisions. If teams are organized they'll sacrifice someone to lead the chase - you're screwed. If not, the climbers are getting to the bottom of the hill in panic mode, which is what you want. If you do get over the top with the climbers, tell your legs to shut up and attack again. Keep in mind that they can't see how much you're hurting yourself from behind you. What they see is a guy riding away from them after the climb, they'll have to respond. If you play your cards right (a bike race is always a poker game) you'll wind up with a bunch of climbers in a break, with no hills in sight.

[HenryA]

You're not going to change the physics - at 6'5" and 180 there's not much weight for you to lose and gravity is a relentless bitch. But you can train for a couple of things that will help.

Learn to pace yourself the best you can so you can put out 99.9% or what you got on the climb. And develop your ability to really roll on the flats.

Its largely a project that will see fruition late this year or even next, if you work hard at it. I got to be pretty good at chasing back on. :) Its not much fun to know that's what you have in store but its better than quitting. The good part is that as you get stronger you'll also climb better. So, pace and power is what you need to develop.

In other words:

"If you're gonna be big, you better be strong".

[shovelhd]

"If you're gonna be big, you better be strong".

I get crushed in road races by the bigger guys with big power. I just cant keep up with them long enough to stick with them. But in criteriums, the tables are turned. They can't handle the attacks and can't sprint worth a damn. Different strokes.

[HenryA]

I get crushed in road races by the bigger guys with big power. I just cant keep up with them long enough to stick with them. But in criteriums, the tables are turned. They can't handle the attacks and can't sprint worth a damn. Different strokes.

Different strokes indeed.

Lots of this is about building on one's strengths and mitigating one's weaknesses. Figuring out what those are is the first step.

[nm87710]

first of all, this thread should take place on bikes, on the road, in race condition - everyone knows everything 'bout racing until the pedals start turning...

+1