My cardio sucks and I don't know what to do with it

[phcollard]

Howdy folks.

Here is the context : for the first time in my cycling life I spent more than 40 hours on the trainer this winter. I was on TrainerRoad "low level base" I, II and III. As the weeks went by I thought the workouts really began to pay : I lost 10 lbs and I believed I was able to better sustain efforts than in the beginning.

One thing though is that I noticed my heart rate was quite high when compared to others who did similar TrainerRoad sessions. I could see some riding at 130bpm or even 120bpm while I was at 150+bpm for the same relative effort (for those who are not familiar with TR the workouts are based on your measured FTP and they ask you to ride at a given percentage of it). My measured FTP is also quite low at 1.6W/kg although that could be a trainer calibration issue since I do not ride with a power meter.

Yesterday I went out to ride (http://ridewithgps.com/trips/2515989) on the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve. They have a part of the road dedicated to cycling and it's awesome because you ride on perfect asphalt since it was built for formula 1 and with no stop at all. I though with all the winter training I was going to leave flaming tire tracks on the road but boy was I disappointed : I could barely average a miserable 29km/h during a ridiculous 15km, I was constantly passed by cyclists obviously quite larger than me and probably less trained, I was breathing heavily and although I was not wearing my heart rate strap I could tell that my bpm's were quite high...

So reality check : my cardio sucks. Numbers on popular segments are not better but sometimes worse than last year at the beginning of the season. I thought there would be an improvement with the winter training but no :confused: I'm only 44. I have been cycling for a long time but decided to take it seriously only 4 or 5 years ago. This year I thought I would give it a boost because being on the bike is something I absolutely love but obviously I am missing something...

Thought? Am I done? How can I improve? Thanks a lot!

[redir]

You need to give it more time. 40 hours over a winter is not really that much. It's a lot more then I did but if you are training for racing or even for good fitness or for century rides you should be doing 10 hours a week. Congrats on the weight loss over the winter, I'm still working on the holiday weight!

[wooly]

Hope this isn't totally a left field comment but have you seen your doctor lately? It sounds like your fitness has declined over the last few years even though you've tried to improve it. You never know if something may be up. Just a thought.

For what it's worth, I've always trailed my cycling pals in fitness partially due to lack of training but also due to a lack of gifted skill. I grew up playing volleyball and was a soccer goal keeper for for many years and the cardio (slow twitch) thing has never been natural for me. But I love cycling nonetheless.

[phcollard]

Hope this isn't totally a left field comment but have you seen your doctor lately? It sounds like your fitness has declined over the last few years even though you've tried to improve it. You never know if something may be up. Just a thought.

Geez I was hoping nobody would mention this since I am hypochondriac! I passed a heart test 3 or 4 years ago and all was OK. I also had a blood test last month and it was good too but I never mentioned my lack of fitness or the declining of it. Maybe I should go back to see a doc.

For what it's worth, I've always trailed my cycling pals in fitness partially due to lack of training but also due to a lack of gifted skill. I grew up playing volleyball and was a soccer goal keeper for for many years and the cardio (slow twitch) thing has never been natural for me. But I love cycling nonetheless.

Maybe you're right. I have never been real good at sports even at high school. I was always last of the class actually! My best shape was when I was in the army at 22 but we had quite a training then. Maybe I am just not gifted. So much so my belgian genes!

[dekindy]

You told my story.

You need to do the Build category. Look at Intermediate Build I workout ride first page that you can view all the ride profiles and compare to the ones that you did. I did not improve until I did interval training and worked very hard.

If you have not done it, go to a bike calculator and see that it takes a significant increase in wattage to improve speed. Computrainer makes claims that if you follow their program that you can improve 2-4 miles per hour. That takes a gigantic increase in power output both in terms of watts and as a percentage of the base that you are starting from. Input your current numbers and then compare those watts to a 2 mile per hour improvement.

If you work really hard and lose more weight, you may get close to 2.0 which in my estimation would be a very difficult goal to obtain but at least try for it.

If you are really serious, get a Wahoo Kickr. The advantage there is that you can properly train for hills and train better period as the power resistance is independent of cadence and gear selection which duplicates riding on the road. I talked my buddy into doing this instead of purchasing another recumbent exercise bike and he has thanked me profusely. As long as the Kickr is as durable as anticipated it will not cost him any more in the long run as he has worn out 2 of the cheaper model trainers. His main complain was that he did not want to sit on a regular bicycle seat while riding indoors; preferring the reclined position and seat. Since he does not ride outdoors enough on a regular bike he was getting saddle sores on RAIN that we ride every July so he should get that benefit also.

[Black Dog]

Howdy folks.

Here is the context : for the first time in my cycling life I spent more than 40 hours on the trainer this winter. I was on TrainerRoad "low level base" I, II and III. As the weeks went by I thought the workouts really began to pay : I lost 10 lbs and I believed I was able to better sustain efforts than in the beginning.

One thing though is that I noticed my heart rate was quite high when compared to others who did similar TrainerRoad sessions. I could see some riding at 130bpm or even 120bpm while I was at 150+bpm for the same relative effort (for those who are not familiar with TR the workouts are based on your measured FTP and they ask you to ride at a given percentage of it). My measured FTP is also quite low at 1.6W/kg although that could be a trainer calibration issue since I do not ride with a power meter.

Yesterday I went out to ride (http://ridewithgps.com/trips/2515989) on the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve. They have a part of the road dedicated to cycling and it's awesome because you ride on perfect asphalt since it was built for formula 1 and with no stop at all. I though with all the winter training I was going to leave flaming tire tracks on the road but boy was I disappointed : I could barely average a miserable 29km/h during a ridiculous 15km, I was constantly passed by cyclists obviously quite larger than me and probably less trained, I was breathing heavily and although I was not wearing my heart rate strap I could tell that my bpm's were quite high...

So reality check : my cardio sucks. Numbers on popular segments are not better but sometimes worse than last year at the beginning of the season. I thought there would be an improvement with the winter training but no :confused: I'm only 44. I have been cycling for a long time but decided to take it seriously only 4 or 5 years ago. This year I thought I would give it a boost because being on the bike is something I absolutely love but obviously I am missing something...

Thought? Am I done? How can I improve? Thanks a lot!

Do not worry. It is normal to have a hard time on the road after a long winter. Indoor training or not. Give it time your fitness will get better. It will. Ride as much as you can and make sure that you do some intervals twice a week. Your winter training was good for keeping you alive but was not enough in terms of hours or effort to make a huge improvement over the winter. Today's efforts will show up in your legs 3 weeks later. Be patient and it will come. Getting back on the bike in the spring is humbling. Cycling is hard. You can and will do this and be ready for your big ride through the Ardenne. We all go through this to some degree. Give your body time to improve, it will. Just do not give up and be patient.

[phcollard]

If you have not done it, go to a bike calculator and see that it takes a significant increase in wattage to improve speed.

You just opened my eyes, thanks. I found this one [ https://www.2peak.com/tools/powercalculator.php ] and all things being equal I would need to add 30W to go 2km/h faster. That is a lot :eek:

What is quite interesting : I can get the same speed improvement riding in the drops instead of on the hoods. No extra watts required. Need to improve flexibility too then!

But that doesn't address my higher than average bpm though. I will take it that this is a genetic thing so far.

[phcollard]

Do not worry. It is normal to have a hard time on the road after a long winter. Indoor training or not. Give it time your fitness will get better. It will. Ride as much as you can and make sure that you do some intervals twice a week. Your winter training was good for keeping you alive but was not enough in terms of hours or effort to make a huge improvement over the winter. Today's efforts will show up in your legs 3 weeks later. Be patient and it will come. Getting back on the bike in the spring is humbling. Cycling is hard. You can and will do this and be ready for your big ride through the Ardenne. We all go through this to some degree. Give your body time to improve, it will. Just do not give up and be patient.

Thanks for the kind words and the encouragement Daryl. I am very happy that you remember my goal this summer : riding a lot in the Ardennes and especially reaching the 100km mark by doing Bastogne-Liège.

That is my goal and I am sticking to it, although yesterday during that ride I had high doubts about it. But you are right : never give up and I will be patient! Cheers to you :beer:

[dekindy]

You just opened my eyes, thanks. I found this one [ https://www.2peak.com/tools/powercalculator.php ] and all things being equal I would need to add 30W to go 2km/h faster. That is a lot :eek:

What is quite interesting : I can get the same speed improvement riding in the drops instead of on the hoods. No extra watts required. Need to improve flexibility too then!

But that doesn't address my higher than average bpm though. I will take it that this is a genetic thing so far.

You are welcome. I use this calculator but you have got the concept.
http://bikecalculator.com/

Key to improvement is Interval Training.

[MattTuck]

Philippe,

Alas, you cannot compare yourself to your countryman of the same name, Gilbert. But I'm sure that your training was worthwhile and will indeed pay dividends. As you ramp up intensity, I'm sure those hours on the trainer will help when it comes to supporting musculature and tendon/ligaments. Ramp up the intensity slowly and you'll start to feel the effects.

Intervals will definitely help.


If I recall from some book I read, George Hincapie also had a high heart beat, atleast compared to Lance.

Also, I'll say that riding outside does seem to give you a higher heart rate than the same perceived effort inside. Can't speak to the differences between you and others on trainerroad, but when you're outside I get much higher heart rates than on the trainer.

[gasman]

Heart rate has a big genetic component so don't worry unless you have symptoms of light-headedness , feeling faint , etc.
the biggest bang for your buck to improve is to really push yourself and do serious interval training.

[deechee]

I'd also suggest going to see your doctor, you never know.

One thing I learned doing triathlon is that everyone comes in all shapes and sizes. The skinny tall guy who looks fast can be really slow and similarly, some of those bigger guys can really bike and run. No point in comparing.

Its hard to say one thing that really improved my cardio, but I'd have to say changing things up always elicit's a strong response from my body. Pick up another sport that you're terrible at and work at it so your body has to work harder than you expect. (Swimming was a huge learning curve for me.) Try mountain biking if you're only riding road. Not sure breakdancing improved my cardio but it gives me an awesome ab workout.

Btw I live in Montreal too and this winter felt long. REALLY long. So I'm in the same boat as you. My usual 70km ride to St-Anne's felt pretty lousy on Friday. Riding l'Estacade was slooow (my excuse was that I was on my mountain bike; after ripping through a tire because of road debris on Friday.) It always takes me a good 1000km to start feeling "good" outside after winter. And I trained 5-7 hours a week on the trainer throughout this winter...

[1centaur]

I ride 30ish minutes on weekdays and 90ish minutes up video mountains on weekends on a trainer all winter so that's WAY over 40 hours, and the first outside rides of spring are ALWAYS harder than I remember them. Partly that's because the efforts come when they come due to terrain, not due to your choice. That's why the suggestions of intervals are right on. Intervals also suck because the efforts come when the clock says so, not when you say so. Slow and steady training on a trainer is good for keeping your muscle memory in the ballpark and burning calories, but it's pretty poor preparation for feeling strong on real terrain when you need to.

If your heart rate feels high on every ride 3 weeks from now, higher than you remember it in seasons past, then maybe it's time for a check-up. In the meantime, make sure you are pre-hydrated with a decent store of electrolytes in your system before you hit the road.

[phcollard]

Thanks folks.

Matt : yeah just too bad I don't have the other Philippe's predispositions to cycling! We are both from the same area but that is where the comparison ends :D

As far as I can remember I have always had a high heart rate especially during exercise. But yeah I guess it's time for another checkup and I will try to book an EGC stress test in the coming weeks. Better safe than sorry, as you say my fellow montrealer you never know, and it does not help being anxious and hypochondriac. I am freakin' a bit as I am writing this...

[tmf]

In my experience, the transition from indoor training to feeling up to potential on the road often takes 2-4 weeks depending on how much you're able to ride per week. This year, the weather hasn't cooperated a lot, so it's more like 4 weeks. I'm riding the same rides now that I did just a few weeks ago, and I'm feeling much closer to 100%.

I'm 48, and I'm also finding that it takes just a little longer to get back in shape each year - just a few days. But, once I get back in shape I feel great out on my bike. I'm not as fit as I was in my racing prime (20-25 years ago), but I "feel" almost the same if that makes sense. I love riding as much or more as I ever have before. Also, I like to mix in some mountain biking and gravel rides to add some variety and build leg strength (and the road bike feels faster after non-pavement riding).

Get some more road miles in over the next couple of weeks, and hopefully you'll see the same boost!

[RonW87]

I don't know nuttin' bout nuttin', but it sounds like you are calcuting watts off or HR or some other measurement. I would ignore heart rate and start training with a proper power meter. Also, 40 hrs over the whole winter is, ummm, moderate.

Ron

[phcollard]

I don't know nuttin' bout nuttin', but it sounds like you are calcuting watts off or HR or some other measurement. I would ignore heart rate and start training with a proper power meter. Also, 40 hrs over the whole winter is, ummm, moderate.

Ron

Thanks Ron. I know 40 hours on the trainer may sound like nothing to seasoned cyclists but to me that was going from zero to 40 hours. That is why I expected an improvement. I'm not a racer obviously. I know some of you spend 3 times my number per week on the trainer :)

[ultraman6970]

Phill...

There are several factors, probably you are concentrating way too much in technology, no matter what you are using to measure yourself, if you are doing something wrong you won't see the improvement you know. I totally understand the frustration but as I always say.. w/o seeing you in hard to tell what is going on and the only info I can see are watts... besides from year to year as age advances the changes are more dramatic than when you were young.

Maybe your T is getting low... maybe you have a problem with invisible training, who knows what gearing you are using too. Not going to tell you that 29 km/h is super slow but if you are doing that with 52x15 and getting your heart rate quite high is indication that something is going on (well thats why you are asking here), as i always ask... what gearing are you using?? you can do those speeds with 39 if the legs are fast, but that's subject for another thread.

Secondly, if F1 road is like nascar tracks, well... can be really smooth but those are designed for not loss of traction and pretty much are hard in the legs because of the drag of the road.

What gearing are you using for your training? do you have a weekly plan for your training? Just curious about what are you doing you know... maybe others are wondering the same.

[TomNY]

In the context that it's all about me first then you.....some years ago when I participated in triathlon, I committed to improving running. Improvements came very gradually, and thankfully fall off slowly albeit faster! At that time "we" used a periodization schedule, of 12, 15, 17 hours per week with months split up into Power, Speed, etc. While this may not be cutting edge stuff anymore, you can make and chart significant gains with the formula. I use couple of months of hill cllimbing with good form - technique to build strength. Trainer, Rollers, Spinning aren't same as riding on the road or off road.There are all good but not the same. It's too early in the spring for you to worry about speed, or comparisons to others that may have put a lot of time in this winter, or for many seasons. I suggest you try riding "NATO"..no attachment to outcome, you'll enjoy the next ride why you cycle.

Cheers!:)

[thwart]

I ride 30ish minutes on weekdays and 90ish minutes up video mountains on weekends on a trainer all winter so that's WAY over 40 hours, and the first outside rides of spring are ALWAYS harder than I remember them. Partly that's because the efforts come when they come due to terrain, not due to your choice. That's why the suggestions of intervals are right on. Intervals also suck because the efforts come when the clock says so, not when you say so. Slow and steady training on a trainer is good for keeping your muscle memory in the ballpark and burning calories, but it's pretty poor preparation for feeling strong on real terrain when you need to.

If your heart rate feels high on every ride 3 weeks from now, higher than you remember it in seasons past, then maybe it's time for a check-up. In the meantime, make sure you are pre-hydrated with a decent store of electrolytes in your system before you hit the road.

Good advice, IMO.

[phcollard]

Phill...

There are several factors, probably you are concentrating way too much in technology, no matter what you are using to measure yourself, if you are doing something wrong you won't see the improvement you know. I totally understand the frustration but as I always say.. w/o seeing you in hard to tell what is going on and the only info I can see are watts... besides from year to year as age advances the changes are more dramatic than when you were young.

Maybe your T is getting low... maybe you have a problem with invisible training, who knows what gearing you are using too. Not going to tell you that 29 km/h is super slow but if you are doing that with 52x15 and getting your heart rate quite high is indication that something is going on (well thats why you are asking here), as i always ask... what gearing are you using?? you can do those speeds with 39 if the legs are fast, but that's subject for another thread.

Secondly, if F1 road is like nascar tracks, well... can be really smooth but those are designed for not loss of traction and pretty much are hard in the legs because of the drag of the road.

What gearing are you using for your training? do you have a weekly plan for your training? Just curious about what are you doing you know... maybe others are wondering the same.

Hey Ultra. That is right I measure stuff much more than before. But if you want to qualify improvement (or the lack of it in my case) you have to measure the outcome. Right? :)

As for gears I am not sure what I used yesterday. Sure I was in the big ring (50t) but that's all I know. Cadence was 80-90 rpm. I am not a fast spinner. I don't have a weekly plan now that I am on the road. On the trainer it was easy to follow TrainerRoad plans but now I have none. Except to pile miles and do some intervals.

[FlashUNC]

The winter base is important, but intensity is just as important once you have that base. Yeah, it'll hurt and suck and you'll be slow initially. But that's the only way to get faster.

If you've spent the time building the base, now time to layer on the interval intensity for those power/speed gains.

[phcollard]

... I suggest you try riding "NATO"..no attachment to outcome, you'll enjoy the next ride why you cycle.

That is good advice. I can leave the Garmin at home and not worry too much if I am being passed by overweight cyclists on crappy bikes :)

That is the thing though : I have a hard time not to push myself (*) especially in environments like the Circuit because that place is just like highly competitive. You WANT to pass people with the poker face.

(*) As I said I'm not a racer. Some will say 29km/h is not pushing it. I understand the point!

[christian]

Here's all the plan you need:

Monday, 1 hr yoga - I like "Deep release for back, hips, hamstrings" by David Procyshn (or something like that) on You tube.
Tuesday, 10m warmup, 2x20 threshold intervals. Should be quite hard to push out the last 10 minutes of each interval. 10m cooldown.
Wednesday, ride 45 minutes at a moderate pace
Thursday, 10m warmup, 2x20 threshold intervals. Should be quite hard to push out the last 10 minutes of each interval. 10m cooldown.
Friday, rest
Saturday: ride 50km at any pace you like
Sunday: ride 1.5 hours at a fastish pace

You can skip Wednesdays if you are burning out, but the key is to alternate work and rest to build strength. Do this for 4 weeks, take a week of easy riding, do this for 4 weeks, take a week of easy riding, and you'll be substantially stronger.

It's not hard, but you have to do it. Every day is a day you are building or regressing. Which is it going to be?

[zap]

It can take time to get road legs sorted.

Christian has the right idea-2x20 but the effort should be hard right out the gate. Ideally you want to get to the level where you know how hard to start and hold that effort 'til you die right at the end.

[dhalbrook]

Seriously... run. I'm 41 and just started racing again this year. Most of my workouts are during my lunch hour, and I find I can get far more cardio fitness in doing a run during that time than riding. Not that I don't ride also, but I try to split my time 50/50.

I found a running partner who is faster than I am so it's been hard work to keep up. Took me a while before it wasn't really tough. However, after nine months I can keep up and some days i'm faster than he is.

Running is relatively cheap compared to cycling. I'm lucky in that there are good trails nearby (I work in downtown Portland, OR) so it's easy to get in 7 or 800 feet of elevation gain. Rotating between running (especially trail running) and riding seems to keep my legs fresher and it's more fun to mix things up.

[rain dogs]

One thing though is that I noticed my heart rate was quite high when compared to others who did similar TrainerRoad sessions. I could see some riding at 130bpm or even 120bpm while I was at 150+bpm for the same relative effort (for those who are not familiar with TR the workouts are based on your measured FTP and they ask you to ride at a given percentage of it).

I haven't read all the responses, and not sure the context of how that training system uses heartrate for calculations.

but, never, ever, ever, compare your heartrate directly to others.

Heartrate is very individual. Some people have a very low max heartrate, some very high. It means nothing as a tool to compare vs others.

It's only important to compare against yourself.

A certain rider's output at a certain heartrate may be completely counter intuative. It's hard enough to make sense of your own sometimes. Your heartrate will fluctuate depending on rest, stress, day to day.

Never compare it to someone else.

For example... Laurens Ten Dam I believe has a max heartrate of 180, he's young and a pro... it cannot go higher. It's not a limit, it just means his heart works at full output at only 180. Doesn't mean anything vs anyone else but him.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Phillipe, you're looking at this all wrong. Who cares what the heartrate or speed of others is (unless you're riding in a group with them and trying to keep up). Just focus on yourself and your own improvements. Find a training plan that works, and have the discipline to stick with it. Then measure your gains against what you were doing a month ago, two months ago, etc., not against others. We are all different athletes with different capacities, talents, and genetics.

Here's an example. I do a shop ride with four other guys pretty regularly. About a month ago, we dropped the shop owner (a very talented racer in his prime) on a slight uphill grade. He was pissed, as we'd never dropped him before. Apparently, he has been training since then, because yesterday, he returned the favor to me and handed me my butt pretty early in the ride. I don't compare myself to him because we have different abilities and he is much more talented than I am, particularly at tough road races (I'm more of a flat lander :)). I checked my strava for the route that we did yesterday and I set a bunch of PR's, so I know I'm going faster and improving, and that is good enough for me. My pace on other familiar routes has increased, and generally at a lower heart rate.

Christian's plan outlined above is a good start. I follow a vaguely similar plan, but modified to suit my needs. I play around with the interval/speed workout element, which I agree is the key to improving speed. But again, stick to your plan. If, for example you go out on a moderate tempo ride (for me, that is about 135 bpm HR), don't get caught up in a speed war with some other cyclists out pushing a tempo higher than this for you. Just smile and wave hi to them, watching them go up the road.

Stick with it, you'll get better. I promise.

[DukeHorn]

Check with a doctor just in case. I had a marked drop in cycling performance 2 years ago and was also climbing poorly. Had a MRI and turned out I had a pituitary macroadenoma in my head that was affecting my hormone levels adversely and also bending my optic nerve. Funny thing was I chalked it up to overtraining and turning 40.

Was actually lucky to find it this way. The people I met at the hospital were diagnosed when they started to lose eyesight or having seizures. Still recovering from surgery, going to do a metric century in a few weeks but not quite sure if I'll be able to bang it out.

[LesMiner]

Really 29 kph or 18 mph average after a long winter is not that bad. Your cardio condition may be better than you think. Your efficiency of putting power to the rear wheel may not be as good as it could be. That's part of starting out the season. How aero your riding position, pedal spinning technique, and how much effort are you putting out that is not going to the pedals makes a difference. All the other training suggestions are good you need more time on the bike. Keep that 29 kph loop as a personl benchmark. Go do other routes with different terrain and distance. Weeks from now try it again to compare. No need to complicate it all, or you will just micro manage yourself. The "poker face" on oter riders you see is indeed because they are ignoring you. It is because they do not want to break their concentration by allowing anyone to interrupt them. It is not about judging you as being inadequate. Its not like a hidden video camera out fed to a big audience that is criticizing you with disparaging remarks with every pedal stroke you take, lighten up do it for fun.

[phcollard]

Phillipe, you're looking at this all wrong.

Robert, you are probably right and usually I don't care (too) much for others. I was asking because I thought that my winter training and albeit modest weight loss would have at least taken me to the next step. But I realize reading you guys answers that 1. I wasn't really training hard/long enough, 2. I had high expectations, 3. I shouldn't bother, 4. I still have a high heart rate and should have it checked just in case.

That said your story with the shop owner is a good one. I will check my Strava results see if I am improving with time. I know I should, or I am dropping all my gear in the classifieds and start up jogging! Hopefully the quality rides are somewhat limited around where I live so I should go through the same segments quite often.

[phcollard]

Here's all the plan you need...

Thanks Christian. Sounds great. I will stick to it or some variation of it. Can't wait to see how it goes!

[phcollard]

Running is relatively cheap compared to cycling.

Seriously? :D

Cycling is a financial black hole! :help:

That's actually a good idea to start jogging. I was thinking I would wait for Fall (hence less riding) but I could mix jogging and cycling right now. What should I aim for to start with? Or do you have a resource to recommend? Book? Website?

[phcollard]

Really 29 kph or 18 mph average after a long winter is not that bad. Your cardio condition may be better than you think. Your efficiency of putting power to the rear wheel may not be as good as it could be. That's part of starting out the season. How aero your riding position, pedal spinning technique, and how much effort are you putting out that is not going to the pedals makes a difference. All the other training suggestions are good you need more time on the bike. Keep that 29 kph loop as a personl benchmark. Go do other routes with different terrain and distance. Weeks from now try it again to compare. No need to complicate it all, or you will just micro manage yourself. The "poker face" on oter riders you see is indeed because they are ignoring you. It is because they do not want to break their concentration by allowing anyone to interrupt them. It is not about judging you as being inadequate. Its not like a hidden video camera out fed to a big audience that is criticizing you with disparaging remarks with every pedal stroke you take, lighten up do it for fun.

Thanks a lot Les. That is encouraging. It's true I noticed my pedalling wasn't smooth and I couldn't get aero for long because my back was stiff. That will surely improve in the coming weeks.

I was kiddin' about the poker face :) I take cycling seriously because it's a genuine passion but I am not a snob.

[dhalbrook]

Seriously? :D

Cycling is a financial black hole! :help:

That's actually a good idea to start jogging. I was thinking I would wait for Fall (hence less riding) but I could mix jogging and cycling right now. What should I aim for to start with? Or do you have a resource to recommend? Book? Website?

I just started with 3-4 mile easy runs, and slowly worked up from there. Now I run between five and eight miles over lunch on average. I also look for trails wherever possible as I find them much more interesting to run on. The most important (and often most difficult) part (in any sport, IMO) is to find a training partner who can motivate you. Don't really have any materials to recommend. Just go to a decent running store and make sure you get a pair of shoes that work well for you. A HRM is great at allowing you to target zones (recovery, tempo, threshold, etc) but not really necessary.

Just have fun with it, and mix it up to keep it fresh. Faster one day, slower the next, maybe some track intervals. If you're like me you'll find it hard work at first but it gets easier and easier (and more fun) as it goes on, and the cardio translates over to the bike. Not the same muscles, of course, but the pure fitness will help a lot.

[carpediemracing]

Howdy folks.

Here is the context : for the first time in my cycling life I spent more than 40 hours on the trainer this winter. I was on TrainerRoad "low level base" I, II and III. As the weeks went by I thought the workouts really began to pay : I lost 10 lbs and I believed I was able to better sustain efforts than in the beginning.

One thing though is that I noticed my heart rate was quite high when compared to others who did similar TrainerRoad sessions. I could see some riding at 130bpm or even 120bpm while I was at 150+bpm for the same relative effort (for those who are not familiar with TR the workouts are based on your measured FTP and they ask you to ride at a given percentage of it). My measured FTP is also quite low at 1.6W/kg although that could be a trainer calibration issue since I do not ride with a power meter.

Yesterday I went out to ride (http://ridewithgps.com/trips/2515989) on the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve. They have a part of the road dedicated to cycling and it's awesome because you ride on perfect asphalt since it was built for formula 1 and with no stop at all. I though with all the winter training I was going to leave flaming tire tracks on the road but boy was I disappointed : I could barely average a miserable 29km/h during a ridiculous 15km, I was constantly passed by cyclists obviously quite larger than me and probably less trained, I was breathing heavily and although I was not wearing my heart rate strap I could tell that my bpm's were quite high...

So reality check : my cardio sucks. Numbers on popular segments are not better but sometimes worse than last year at the beginning of the season. I thought there would be an improvement with the winter training but no :confused: I'm only 44. I have been cycling for a long time but decided to take it seriously only 4 or 5 years ago. This year I thought I would give it a boost because being on the bike is something I absolutely love but obviously I am missing something...

Thought? Am I done? How can I improve? Thanks a lot!

Some thoughts:

- were the other riders drafting one another? Were you drafting anyone? I average 20-30 kph on my solo rides but I'll do 40-45 kph in a race, and the fast bits will be 50-60 kph.

- 40 hours base isn't a lot although it's not bad. I did about 40 hours in Jan and Feb and I don't train a lot. Someone that commented (a nice comment) on a Strava ride I did said something about how I'm training much more. I was doing about 4 hours a week. He averaged 22 hours a week for the prior year. I do maybe 15-20 hours a month when it's nice. I did 150 hours in the winter once and I had to take two trips to warmer areas to do it. Normally 50 hours is about what I get, with 150-200 hours for the whole year.

- Intensity helps you gain speed. It's not just the physiological part, it's also the "now you know what it takes" bit. Group rides, with the right types of riders, can help immensely. If you feel like it racing can help too. It broadens your horizons, shows you what's possible. I tell new riders to work on their max speed. If their max speed is 50 kph (typical) then they'll be in trouble when the race goes 55 kph. If they can raise their max speed to 60 kph or more then they'll be more comfortable at 40 kph or 50 kph.

- As mentioned before HR is so individual that it's practically useless to compare. You can compare relative HR, meaning as a % of max, but that's about it. My HR is pretty low compared to some of my peers but it also maxes out much lower. I see 160-165 bpm and I'm pretty much done. There are guys I ride with that talk about sustaining 180-190 bpm.

- Lower weight helps but only if it's significant. If it's not significant then it's not as noticeable. For me 10 lbs is pretty significant. When I was 35 lbs lighter from one year to the next then it became really significant.

- I'm assuming you have clipless pedals, that you have a reasonable bike fit (no one would question your fit if you posted it online), that you have a reasonable bike, that you have reasonable wheels and tires. If you're on a mountain bike with 2" knobby tires then the expectations change dramatically.

It's only the start of the season and there's always next season. Learn what you can this year and just keep working at improving your cycling.

[redir]

Seriously? :D

Cycling is a financial black hole! :help:



Sailing is worse! :eek:

[CunegoFan]

I find that hill repeats (or in my case small canyon repeats) are the easiest way for me to add intensity. Find something that is steep enough to make you suffer . It should take about twenty minutes to get to the top when you are in good shape, longer when you have a lot of room to improve. Don't use a huge cassette and you will be forced to build leg strength. To get to the top faster you will have to increase aerobic capacity, build strength, up your AT, and lose weight, basically everything. The climbing will take care of the first three. Watching what you eat will take care of the fourth.

Start with one reapeat twice a week and in a month work up to three or four repeats twice a week.

[ultraman6970]

I think phill is getting the chills due to the ride he has to do in a few more months. :D

Honestly? if you have a bike w/o a computer and all that paraphernalia. just use it for a week and see do you feel. Data can eat somebody's head big time, besides you aren't racing and don't have to make the sport your main activity during the day, right?

You have to put things in perspective, looks like your fundamentals aren't there because you never built them, age... not a lot of time to ride either... a lot of other stuff comes to mind that I can't even mention but one thing is true, is easy to eat your head due to the data you are expecting to see you know.

[rnhood]

The best way to improve cycling fitness, and relatively quickly, is to start riding with fast groups. Forget training protocols, just ride with fast groups. Here you'll ultimately see what your max HR is and, you will get the training that your trainer can never provide. Don't worry about getting dropped, it just makes you push harder and ride smarter. And its fun, the cycling and camaraderie.

[pbarry]

In this order: Get more miles in those legs, then, speed work and hill climbing intervals. 6-8 hours a week on the bike needed if you want to feel medium strong. 10 hpw will get you into race shape if you do it right. :)

[hockeybike]

Serious question: are you sleeping much? If your increase in training time has come at the expense of sleep and rest, take a step back and come back after a few weeks. Not necessarily the case that youv'e over trained, could just be exhaustion if you've tried ot fit this all in on a bunch fewer hours of sleep per week.

[popol]

Be patient
Be confident
Always stick to the plan
Have fun
Ride with stronger cyclists
One beer a day keeps the doctor away (only if you're belgian :) )
I'm still waiting for you to show up in QC city to go for a ride. :)


Envoyé de mon iPad à l'aide de Tapatalk

[93legendti]

Howdy folks.

Here is the context : for the first time in my cycling life I spent more than 40 hours on the trainer this winter. I was on TrainerRoad "low level base" I, II and III. As the weeks went by I thought the workouts really began to pay : I lost 10 lbs and I believed I was able to better sustain efforts than in the beginning.

One thing though is that I noticed my heart rate was quite high when compared to others who did similar TrainerRoad sessions. I could see some riding at 130bpm or even 120bpm while I was at 150+bpm for the same relative effort (for those who are not familiar with TR the workouts are based on your measured FTP and they ask you to ride at a given percentage of it). My measured FTP is also quite low at 1.6W/kg although that could be a trainer calibration issue since I do not ride with a power meter.

Yesterday I went out to ride (http://ridewithgps.com/trips/2515989) on the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve. They have a part of the road dedicated to cycling and it's awesome because you ride on perfect asphalt since it was built for formula 1 and with no stop at all. I though with all the winter training I was going to leave flaming tire tracks on the road but boy was I disappointed : I could barely average a miserable 29km/h during a ridiculous 15km, I was constantly passed by cyclists obviously quite larger than me and probably less trained, I was breathing heavily and although I was not wearing my heart rate strap I could tell that my bpm's were quite high...

So reality check : my cardio sucks. Numbers on popular segments are not better but sometimes worse than last year at the beginning of the season. I thought there would be an improvement with the winter training but no :confused: I'm only 44. I have been cycling for a long time but decided to take it seriously only 4 or 5 years ago. This year I thought I would give it a boost because being on the bike is something I absolutely love but obviously I am missing something...

Thought? Am I done? How can I improve? Thanks a lot!

If I understand correctly, you have a sample size of 1 re road riding this year. One ride does not a season make. Keep riding outdoors and in 2-3 weeks see how you feel.

[shovelhd]

40 hours is a good start to base. You will not get a lot of speed or endurance from one short base period. As was said, you need to move to build. Also, rest was just touched on. HR and rest are directly coupled. If you are not properly rested your HR will be high and can get stuck at a low maximum which hinders recovery.

This experience sounds like you did a bunch of indoor riding, went out to play with the big boys, and got smoked. It can be humbling. Just keep working on your base and build, get your rest, and you will improve.

[phcollard]

40 hours is a good start to base. You will not get a lot of speed or endurance from one short base period. As was said, you need to move to build. Also, rest was just touched on. HR and rest are directly coupled. If you are not properly rested your HR will be high and can get stuck at a low maximum which hinders recovery.

This experience sounds like you did a bunch of indoor riding, went out to play with the big boys, and got smoked. It can be humbling. Just keep working on your base and build, get your rest, and you will improve.

Thanks Chris (and others).

I'm going to work on building from that base then. I did not think too much about sleep but it's true that it's been a while since I slept real well, maybe months! Also I am guessing that being a bit nervous about the first rides outside did not help neither.

Too bad the weather is real bad this morning because I was all pumped up thanks to the comments I got here and ready for my first hilly intervals! Anybody has a road bike with fenders with a 55TT?

[dekindy]

I would encourage you to get Phil Campbell's book, "Ready, Set, Go" and follow his regimen. 20 minute intense workouts are all you need. Intensity, not volume is the key. 2-3, 20-minute workouts from December to March or April and you will see dramatic improvement. 3, 20-minute workouts over 20 weeks is 20 hours. Folks saying 40 hours is not a lot are just not up to date on training techniques. I will guarantee that if you follow his routine next Winter you will come out of the gate in the Spring cycling the best in your life. I did this and a 15-minute stretching routine after the workout. I will be glad to give you more details if needed. In my estimation you trained the right amount of time or too much and not intensely enough.

Like I said, you told my story. Now come back after doing Phil Campbell's workouts and say that I told yours. Only thing that has dramatically improved my cycling.

[dekindy]

Regarding heart rate, the heat outdoors requires more heartbeats for cooling than indoors, about 5-8 beats for me. That might beg the question whether you should be using a fan for Winter indoor training. The answer is yes, you should use a fan because you want the maximum workout of your muscles. You will get acclimated to the heat as it gradually warms up outdoors.

[tmf]

Anybody has a road bike with fenders with a 55TT?

I have one of the SKS X3 seatpost mount rear fenders (~$15). It's easy to take on and off for rainy or wet rides. I currently don't have a front fender. I noticed several riders with this fender at the CX Worlds last year, and decided to get one for myself.

http://www.rei.com/zoom/210522.jpg/440

[phcollard]

Regarding heart rate, the heat outdoors requires more heartbeats for cooling than indoors, about 5-8 beats for me. That might beg the question whether you should be using a fan for Winter indoor training. The answer is yes, you should use a fan because you want the maximum workout of your muscles. You will get acclimated to the heat as it gradually warms up outdoors.

Yes I was using a fan. My GF always made jokes about it while I was on the bike "do you want me to put the fan on max. speed so you have more front winds to deal with?" :)

[zap]

One more matter.

When I grew up in/near Montreal, my sport was xc skiing & biathlon. Nothing better for fitness which translates pretty well to cycling. There are plenty of places near downtown Montreal that have hours worth of trails and even when it's -30C, it ski time.

So next winter, ski on the weekends and 2-3 hours of mid-week trainer intervals should get you into race shape.

Oh, you know Quebecois go to Florida for a few months each winter to go riding.

[PQJ]

A little late to this party and haven't read all the way through and think it may have been touched on, but...

Were you 'just riding' or were you doing any intervals? If no intervals, maybe that's what you need to be doing, especially if you have a decent base. Intervals are the surest, bestest, fastest, painfullest way to improve your fitness. If you think you're doing intervals and you're enjoying yourself, then you're not really doing intervals. Proper intervals are horrible, in a good way.

[stien]

Check out pdw full metal fenders Phillipe! I'm getting some.

[oldguy00]

....If you think you're doing intervals and you're enjoying yourself, then you're not really doing intervals. Proper intervals are horrible, in a good way.

Agreed. It wasn't until after I got a kickr and trainer road, that I realized how easy I had been taking it on my past 'interval' workouts.

If you can afford it, get a Kickr or a Computrainer for next winter.

[shovelhd]

I'm not up on training techniques? I find this amusing.

Phillippe, remember that you gain strength during the rest period after stress, not from the stress itself. It is the rebuilding phase that adds strength. If you don't get enough rest, your muscles will not recover completely enough to add strength. You'll just be tired and sore. Rest comes in many forms, it's not just sleep. Days off the bike where you are running around doing chores and family stuff isn't really rest and needs to be accounted for. If there is one thing I see most often when coaching new racers it's the lack of enough rest.

On indoor training. If you're just riding around on the rollers or trainer any old $20 box fan will do, but if you are doing extended time at tempo or above or interval work, a cheap fan may not be enough. I have an industrial 20" floor fan that I hang up two feet from my face and it is just adequate. Indoor training with the crappy air quality and poor circulation along with the constant resistance from the device is harder than training outside. I de-rate indoor workouts by 7% but 10% may be more realistic.

[phcollard]

Check out pdw full metal fenders Phillipe! I'm getting some.

I just found out about them a couple days ago. They look indeed like a great piece of kit! Plus they sell for $75 at mec.ca while I believe in the USA they are $120. Not sure why.

Problem is they don't fit my Merckx, and my Serotta even less with the F-1 fork. I posted a WTB for a Woundup just in case!

[phcollard]

Agreed. It wasn't until after I got a kickr and trainer road, that I realized how easy I had been taking it on my past 'interval' workouts.

If you can afford it, get a Kickr or a Computrainer for next winter.

To answer a question above I just riding. But I get it that I have to work on painful intervals now. I kind of knew it and did a bit of them on TrainerRoad but that was probably not enough.

A Kickr would be nice but damn expensive!

[Netdewt]

Mine sucks too. I get killed on hills because I can't breathe - no Asthma or anything. Good to know I'm not alone. :) I did go on a B ride with the bike club last night and I felt like a racer there... so that was nice for a change!