Steel is Real... Get rid of your plastic!

[MattTuck]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/should-you-pay-495-for-a-steel-credit-card-2014-03-12

In order to attract more big spenders, credit-card companies are scrapping the plastic for fancy cards made of titanium, aluminum and steel. But with all the glitz and heft comes a little sticker shock — and not just because the cards conduct electricity.

I can only imagine some retrogrouch got a job as VP of Product at one of these banks. :banana:

[oldpotatoe]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/should-you-pay-495-for-a-steel-credit-card-2014-03-12



I can only imagine some retrogrouch got a job as VP of Product at one of these banks. :banana:

Saw quite a few metal credit cards in the shop. Fair number from Europe, with microchip embedded in them with owner info....kinda like a ID card.

[mcteague]

What goes round comes round. I am old enough to remember my mother using this type of cc.

Tim

[tv_vt]

Your mother was Eleanor Roosevelt??

Wow, we have some distinguished folks around here.;)

[kykr13]

We used to use cards like that at my first job to stamp an order with a customer's account info. This was in the 80's and computers had barely made it through the door of that place.

[Bob Ross]

Ironically, we just got some junk mail offering us new Visa cards made of carbon fiber!

[Black Dog]

My brother has a Ti American Express card. I do not know if it is 3/2.5 or 6/4.

[Idris Icabod]

My Grandmother passed a few months ago at the age of 100 and was a bit of a hoarder. My parents have found numerous bank books for accounts containing money, they have been having a real hard time closing out the accounts as most of the employees have no idea what a bank book is! I only moved from England 16 years ago and I remember using them routinely.

[Louis]

http://www.coolbusinessideas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/carbon-fiber-business-card.jpg

[mcteague]

Your mother was Eleanor Roosevelt??

Wow, we have some distinguished folks around here.;)

using this type of cc:rolleyes:

Tim

[1centaur]

I just got an invite for that Visa Black card which the article said was steel but I think was actually said in the materials to be steel and...carbon fiber. Kind of like a 2002 bike.

[notsew]

I've got a metal chase card, we had our card compromised and I had to bust out the tin snips to cut it up.

Reflecting on it now, it was probably unnecessary since the card had already been cancelled... habit to cut it up I suppose.

[Ahneida Ride]

CC company charges merchant 3% and merchant passes along fee.
Consumer pays 3% surcharge and gets 1% back.
Gets nothing back if pays in frns.

[dawgie]

I would like a lugged one

[pbarry]

My brother has a Ti American Express card. I do not know if it is 3/2.5 or 6/4.

Might be CP, which is cheaper and easier to work than the alloyed Ti materials.

[fourflys]

Saw quite a few metal credit cards in the shop. Fair number from Europe, with microchip embedded in them with owner info....kinda like a ID card.

Europeans are often amazed at how lax out credit card industry is... either from cashiers not asking for ID or the microchip thing....

[Louis]

Europeans are often amazed at how lax out credit card industry is... either from cashiers not asking for ID or the microchip thing....

I am amazed by how lax it is.

No two-factor authentication, no biometrics, etc etc. So much more could be done to make it safer, but I suppose stores are afraid it might affect sales.

Every now and then the gas pump asks me for my zip code, but other than that, Al Capone could walk up to the register and buy stuff with my CC.

[Black Dog]

Up here in the great white north all CC's have an embedded chip and require a PIN when making a purchase. No big deal. We also have instant payment on items under a set value with a touchless swipe, super fast.

[1centaur]

I am amazed by how lax it is.

No two-factor authentication, no biometrics, etc etc. So much more could be done to make it safer, but I suppose stores are afraid it might affect sales.

Every now and then the gas pump asks me for my zip code, but other than that, Al Capone could walk up to the register and buy stuff with my CC.

I am professionally invested in a company that supplies chips for cards in Europe. One of the rationales is the inevitability of the same happening in the US. The level of security around those chips is quite high and a credible track record of not being lax might go some way to winning contracts here.

I don't think it's the stores stopping it here, at least not for sales reasons. I think it's some combination of the expense of the transition and the culture that reviles any version of "your papers please." US politicians might get flack for foisting anything that might ID the buyer to the seller too directly, whereas European regulators don't shrink from enforcing top down stuff whenever they think of it.

That said, EZ Pass was met originally by objections over trackability but now I suspect almost nobody would prefer cash-based toll booths.

BTW, it's illegal to ask zip code on gas pumps here and I believe in many places. I forget if it's because somebody might see the number on your pump screen or there's just an objection to, again, creating anything non-anonymous in the transaction.

I am guessing mag stripes will be history in about 5 years. Chips were suggested in the wake of the Target hack, and with several subsequent hacks and more to come I can't see Congress sitting on their hands forever.

[bikinchris]

I have a stainless steel CC (black anodized) and it doesn't cost that much to get it. People still take it from me to swipe it and comment on how heavy it is.

[bikinchris]

I am professionally invested in a company that supplies chips for cards in Europe. One of the rationales is the inevitability of the same happening in the US. The level of security around those chips is quite high and a credible track record of not being lax might go some way to winning contracts here.

I don't think it's the stores stopping it here, at least not for sales reasons. I think it's some combination of the expense of the transition and the culture that reviles any version of "your papers please." US politicians might get flack for foisting anything that might ID the buyer to the seller too directly, whereas European regulators don't shrink from enforcing top down stuff whenever they think of it.

That said, EZ Pass was met originally by objections over trackability but now I suspect almost nobody would prefer cash-based toll booths.

BTW, it's illegal to ask zip code on gas pumps here and I believe in many places. I forget if it's because somebody might see the number on your pump screen or there's just an objection to, again, creating anything non-anonymous in the transaction.

I am guessing mag stripes will be history in about 5 years. Chips were suggested in the wake of the Target hack, and with several subsequent hacks and more to come I can't see Congress sitting on their hands forever.

But the problem at Target wasn't the strips. they hacked the company, not the swiping machines.

[BobbyJones]

Credit cards are so pedestrian.

I thought everyone had the merchant send bills to their secretaries like I do. ;)

[Louis]

I thought everyone had the merchant send bills to their secretaries like I do. ;)

I'm game. What's her/his address or PP account info?

[1centaur]

But the problem at Target wasn't the strips. they hacked the company, not the swiping machines.

Yes, but shows the instincts of the card industry. The goal should be to separate the number from the person at the retailer, let the retailer know the shopper is worth targeting while keeping the match at the processor's data site under, presumably, the best security. Maybe that could be managed with strips, but if they are going to reengineer the system they might as well make the transition to chips.

[fuzzalow]

Credit card companies besiege my household with offers at least once a week, if not more. Yes, Visa Black and Amex Platinum and cards featuring whatever other rare earth alloy to appeal to a consumer's sense of vanity and status. All with annual fees of $500 or more - what that buys I am not quite clear about. Perhaps my "specialness" in belonging to an elite that was convinced to spend $500 on a card that's was issued in a different color. ;)

In my experience, credit card companies already know, and can data mine patterns, cycles and anomalies to project what they don't know, all they need to know about me. And the credit card companies are better at security than they are given credit (!) for in this thread, largely based on what they already know about the spending pattern history of my account. For example: CC co. does not flag an online purchase for $500 for sunglasses but freezes a charge for $350 for an X-Box purchase and texts me to confirm the charge.

Buttressing security at the individual card level is a waste of money given the potential return other than as marketing to the consumer a sense of safety IMO. Consumers are still protected and capped at $100 liability for fraudulent charges made on their accounts and if the account is valued in terms of spending amount, the customer will never see that loss either as a CC co. would eat the fee rather than endanger losing that customer's transactions stream.

The security breaches all happen at the merchant level. Thieves don't want YOUR account number, they want MILLIONS of account numbers. There is a limited shelf life for what can be stolen from these account numbers before that number is shut down. Taking into consideration charge reversals, there nets a fairly limited yield for each account. So stealing has to move quickly to mine the next account. As I neither work in credit card security nor am I a thief, this is just my conjecture on how it works.

Cards with chips and PINs might bolster security at some level but IMO it is penny ante because it is manpower and transaction intensive - a thief has to physically posses the credit card and actually make a purchase. Not efficient, dangerous to conduct as far as arrest and too obvious in that people that steal rarely look like and comport themselves like people who spend.

[victoryfactory]

I am amazed by how lax it is.

No two-factor authentication, no biometrics, etc etc. So much more could be done to make it safer, but I suppose stores are afraid it might affect sales.

Every now and then the gas pump asks me for my zip code, but other than that, Al Capone could walk up to the register and buy stuff with my CC.

That's because CC fraud is not paid for by the card issuers or the banks
(a common misconception) or the card holder.
It's the merchant who pays. If that money was coming out of the
pocket of Amex or visa they would have fixed it by now.
btw, chip and pin is coming to U.S. cards soon.
VF

[oldpotatoe]

That's because CC fraud is not paid for by the card issuers or the banks
(a common misconception) or the card holder.
It's the merchant who pays. If that money was coming out of the
pocket of Amex or visa they would have fixed it by now.
btw, chip and pin is coming to U.S. cards soon.
VF

I got a new credit card machine at the shop about a decade ago, it had a micro chip reader/card slot....CC guy said microchips in US CC were 'right around the corner'.....10 years ago. Have had many Euro customers use their card, all had the microchip, although my machine couldn't read it(?).

US behind on this and I think the National ID gig is stopping it. Strange since I have had an ID all my life. Military dependent ID, active duty USN ID, retired USN ID....just don't see the problem.

[Charles M]

What a dumb thing to do...

Lets make something that should flex in order to be comfortably and safely carried and make it out of metal.

[fuzzalow]

What is the dislike and aversion about microchips embedded in credit cards about? Can anyone elaborate on what the issues are surrounding this technology and why the distrust or fear about it is?

I think the fear is misplaced because the objective of embedded microchips isn't to encroach or violate a customer's privacy. IMO it is astounding to think there is any semblance of privacy or anonymity related to credit cards when the credit card companies know what you buy, when you bought it and the location where it was purchased. They also know where to send the bill and how it gets paid at the end of the month. And the worry is over a microchip and what it might do? Well as long as the chip is embedded in the card and not implanted into my skull I'm not gonna worry about it.

The microchip is in the credit card to prevent the counterfeiting of credit cards. Like the woven strands in the paper used to print currency.

Any crook with account info and a credit card blank with the hologram "security" tag and embosser/imprinter can make a valid credit card. And because the pilfered credit card numbers are valuable only as long as the number can be used to acquire goods. That means buying stuff the old fashioned way and walking outta the store with it. Not buying stuff online which can be traced to a shipping address. So a thief needs the physical card. And when crooks can just cycle through their trove of stolen account numbers, even with their limited validity, they can keep buying/stealing stuff. This will be much harder to do, née impossible, if the crooks also have to work out the security algorithms read off the microchip.

All these fears of Big Brother, so little reality. If I am way off base here, let me know.

[Llewellyn]

What is the dislike and aversion about microchips embedded in credit cards about? Can anyone elaborate on what the issues are surrounding this technology and why the distrust or fear about it is?

I think the fear is misplaced because the objective of embedded microchips isn't to encroach or violate a customer's privacy. IMO it is astounding to think there is any semblance of privacy or anonymity related to credit cards when the credit card companies know what you buy, when you bought it and the location where it was purchased. They also know where to send the bill and how it gets paid at the end of the month. And the worry is over a microchip and what it might do? Well as long as the chip is embedded in the card and not implanted into my skull I'm not gonna worry about it.

The microchip is in the credit card to prevent the counterfeiting of credit cards. Like the woven strands in the paper used to print currency.

Any crook with account info and a credit card blank with the hologram "security" tag and embosser/imprinter can make a valid credit card. And because the pilfered credit card numbers are valuable only as long as the number can be used to acquire goods. That means buying stuff the old fashioned way and walking outta the store with it. Not buying stuff online which can be traced to a shipping address. So a thief needs the physical card. And when crooks can just cycle through their trove of stolen account numbers, even with their limited validity, they can keep buying/stealing stuff. This will be much harder to do, née impossible, if the crooks also have to work out the security algorithms read off the microchip.

All these fears of Big Brother, so little reality. If I am way off base here, let me know.

Am I right in assuming from this that people using credit cards in the US still have to sign for purchases (unless it's a phone or internet purchase)?

We've had chip and PIN here for years and from 1 August you will only be able to use a PIN, no more signing. And cheques will be gone in a couple of years too.

[Llewellyn]

Credit card companies besiege my household with offers at least once a week, if not more. Yes, Visa Black and Amex Platinum and cards featuring whatever other rare earth alloy to appeal to a consumer's sense of vanity and status. All with annual fees of $500 or more - what that buys I am not quite clear about. Perhaps my "specialness" in belonging to an elite that was convinced to spend $500 on a card that's was issued in a different color. ;)


So true. I remember when my bank offered me a gold card years ago. I thought that merchants would suck in their breath when they saw it and think "ooohhh, a gold card". In reality they didn't give a rats clacker and just wanted my money.

The bank has recently offered me a platinum card which I've taken up only because it will cover any excess charged by a car hire company if we have an accident in one of their cars (these are usually ridiculously high). This will be handy for our trip in October but apart from that I wouldn't have bothered, as I don't care about the colour of the card anymore.

[fuzzalow]

That's because CC fraud is not paid for by the card issuers or the banks
(a common misconception) or the card holder.
It's the merchant who pays. If that money was coming out of the
pocket of Amex or visa they would have fixed it by now.
btw, chip and pin is coming to U.S. cards soon.
VF

It is correct that the burden of conducting a bona fide credit card transaction be imposed on the merchant. They are at the point of sale, they rightfully reap both the benefit of successfully completing a sale and the potential loss in theft of their goods or services. To have it any other way is a perversion of incentives - it would be effectively having Amex or Visa paying for a merchant's losses when they screw up. It brings to mind that anytime a merchant needs a boost in sales, just have a raft of thefts in the business and have the credit card companies pick up the tab.:D A business where it is profitable to collude with thieves - that's crazy.

BTW talking about crazy and collusion - all the attention brought against the nefarious practice of high frequency trading (HFT) as the story line of Michael Lewis' (Liar's Poker, The Blind-Side, Moneyball) latest book "Flash Boys" is dead on and both a comedy and a tragedy for what the US stock exchanges have become. Because none of HFT is possible without the collusion of the stock exchanges in allowing tiered & stratified access to market data and order flows in a structure and topography that allows & encourages HFT. The exchanges are now largely owned by brokers & trading organizations - their purpose and incentives are no longer fair & impartial equity capital flows. A business where it is profitable to collude with traders that use your own trades against yourself - that's crazy.

Am I right in assuming from this that people using credit cards in the US still have to sign for purchases (unless it's a phone or internet purchase)?

We've had chip and PIN here for years and from 1 August you will only be able to use a PIN, no more signing. And cheques will be gone in a couple of years too.

Yes, USA credit card purchases still require a signature on the electronic pad or on a paper receipt. I'd guess the legality of doing a transaction where the credit card companies actually front the money for the purchase require some action as proof the transaction was authorized and acceptance of the responsibility in paying back that money. I don't see a signature as any different from entering a PIN. Yeah, paper cheques are a nuisance and are expensive for banks to process paper.

Pertaining to microchips already in Australian credit cards: The cards don't function in anyway as ID cards, do they? Meaning that a credit card is simply used to buy things and the chip in it doesn't have all your private information on it. Or does it? I ask because I'm interested in knowing if the fear and paranoia expressed by some parties on this as a means of government intrusion is grounded in sane reality.

[Black Dog]

Am I right in assuming from this that people using credit cards in the US still have to sign for purchases (unless it's a phone or internet purchase)?

We've had chip and PIN here for years and from 1 August you will only be able to use a PIN, no more signing. And cheques will be gone in a couple of years too.

Same here is Canada.

[Black Dog]

Pertaining to microchips already in Australian credit cards: The cards don't function in anyway as ID cards, do they? Meaning that a credit card is simply used to buy things and the chip in it doesn't have all your private information on it. Or does it? I ask because I'm interested in knowing if the fear and paranoia expressed by some parties on this as a means of government intrusion is grounded in sane reality.

Can't speak for Oz, but in Canada the chip cards can not be used for ID because they do not have a photograph on them. Government issued photo ID (passport, drivers licence, health card…etc) is king.

[Llewellyn]

Can't speak for Oz, but in Canada the chip cards can not be used for ID because they do not have a photograph on them. Government issued photo ID (passport, drivers licence, health card…etc) is king.

That applies here as well. I think they can be used as a secondary document for ID for loans etc but you must supply something like a passport, drivers licence as the primary ID.

[Llewellyn]

Pertaining to microchips already in Australian credit cards: The cards don't function in anyway as ID cards, do they? Meaning that a credit card is simply used to buy things and the chip in it doesn't have all your private information on it. Or does it? I ask because I'm interested in knowing if the fear and paranoia expressed by some parties on this as a means of government intrusion is grounded in sane reality.

I think most Australians don't give a second thought about credit cards being used for ID purposes, and they're quite happy to use PIN's instead of signing. Personally I'm more concerned about the banks and merchants data mining, and then using, the info they gather. That's why I don't sign up for loyalty cards or programmes.

As an aside, the last time I was in the US (admittedly in 2002) I was amazed at how many people still used cheques or cash for to pay for purchases. Very few used EFTPOS, which had been in full swing over here for quite a number of years already. I found it interesting that a country that was responsible for so much technological innovation was not using some of that innovation. From reading this, it sounds like it may have been due to resistance from consumers.

[Drmojo]

I am amazed by how lax it is.

No two-factor authentication, no biometrics, etc etc. So much more could be done to make it safer, but I suppose stores are afraid it might affect sales.

Every now and then the gas pump asks me for my zip code, but other than that, Al Capone could walk up to the register and buy stuff with my CC.

Big Al is still dead;)

[fuzzalow]

Can't speak for Oz, but in Canada the chip cards can not be used for ID because they do not have a photograph on them. Government issued photo ID (passport, drivers licence, health card…etc) is king.

That applies here as well. I think they can be used as a secondary document for ID for loans etc but you must supply something like a passport, drivers licence as the primary ID.

Miscellaneous forms of ID don't count for bupkis if it can't get you past an airport security checkpoint - a credit card is lousy ID. It's only purpose is the help you buy things you don't really need! :help:

BTW, I was rash in saying that there was no benefit in embedded microchips in credit cards. I think deploying them as a new standard would bring credit card counterfeiting almost to a standstill. They are virtually impossible to crack if the right inputs are used in calculating the security algorithm. What goes into deriving the security result is information not available to the merchant and only held by the credit card company. A thief has to gather the pieces to make one good account from two different entities (bank & merchant) or steal all the account info as if they were the CC-company/bank.

Right now the stopgap and security granularity is only at the account number level. Thats all they can fit on a mag strip and still have it read reliably on a swipe. But a chip! Whoa, lotsa room and can be read reliably! By having storage for a security code that is multiple combinations derived from issuing bank, account holder info and the indigenous code on the credit card blank - now the security is enforced at the card level, not higher up at the account level like it is now.

Sorry for that paroxysm, the inner nerd blurted.

[PaMtbRider]

That's because CC fraud is not paid for by the card issuers or the banks
(a common misconception) or the card holder.
It's the merchant who pays. If that money was coming out of the
pocket of Amex or visa they would have fixed it by now.
btw, chip and pin is coming to U.S. cards soon.
VF
That was true at one time but is no longer the case. Issuers / banks are now often times paying the cost of fraud. It depends who has charge back rights. I don't claim to know a lot about the process, but my wife is the manager of the credit card department at a local credit union. A lot of her job is in dealing with fraud. I constantly hear how she either won or lost a fraud settlement with a merchant.