OT: Resumes

[CT Rider]

It's being apparent that it is time to start the dreaded job search. The company I have been with for the last 7 years is in a downward spiral and I think the end will be near in 12-18 months. I'm a high level Senior Technical Staff Engineer reporting directly to the Director of Engineering.

I have updated my resume (on my own) but am leaning towards paying a professional resume writing company to "make it right". I like a company called resumewriters.com. For $219 they assign you a writer (suppossedly familar with your occupation) and you get the electronic version of your resume (MS Word), text version (for email attachment), a scannable version (to post on Monster/Career Builder, etc), cover letter and follow-up letter.

Anyone ever use one of these services? Any feedback or advice?

[shinbone]

My experience, FWIW:

My first resume right out of college was drafted by a professional resume writer. The writer knew how to put a good spin on everything, but he didn't know me or my job field well enough to write a good resume for me. The resume he drafted was more fluff than substance, and was produced after a 30 minute interview with me.

After the resume writer was done, I used the resume he produced as a foundation/template for my own resume drafting. I considerably beefed-up the content by adding more details, and cut out the superflurous words the professional had used.

My final product was much better than what the pro had created. In hindsight, there was no way the pro could have done as good a job as me because I knew my skills and background better than the pro, and I also knew my job field/audience better than the pro. Plus, I was much more motivated to produce a great resume than the pro was

I've never used a resume writing service since that first experience. I just have colleagues review my resumes for me.

Good luck in the job search!

[CT Rider]

Thanks for the input Shinbone!

I agree with you about the resume writer not knowing you as well as you know yourself. I make it a point to update my resume on a yearly basis independent of whether or not I am entering the job market.

What I am seeing is a change in the way people (especially at my level) find jobs. In the early-mid 90's common practice was the newspaper classifieds. The late 90's professional recruiters (headhunters) were the big engineering placement mechanism. In the 2000's I'm finding on-line services like Monster and CareerBuilder are the main conduit into the hiring market. With this change brings new challenges in your resume presentation - enter the resume scanning robots. Most companies looking for engineers on Monster/CB will use robots which scan resumes for key words/technolgies/etc. The resume writing service I am considering suppossedly has a lot of experience in prepping resumes to be compatible with scanning robots - this is the advantage I think I would get with such a service. They take my resume (which is decent shape), tweak it for scanability and hopefully my resume becomes compatible with 21st Century hiring technolgies?

What flaws am I not seeing?

[TimB]

CT Rider -

Seems to me that unless this company has a great deal of experience in your particular field you could likely do just as well including the key words relating to the technologies/subjects you are interested or experienced in. Who knows better the particular jargon of your career field?

[Ginger]

If you don't have time to update the resume yourself, hire someone. If you have time do it yourself and having a peer or two (who have been involved in hiring in your field) review the document is a very good way to go about it.

A resume piques interest, gives the interviewer something to talk about, gives them a basis for understanding your past work. It doesn't get you the job. You do.

I haven't used a resume company, but I have produced winning resumes for people. What I've found over the years is that the people themselves really do know their field better and if given a chance can sell themselves very short. People just don't like blowing their own horn, and often don't have the tools to put the ideas in the correct context. Your resume is not the place to downplay the good stuff.

To give you some ideas for updating your own resume, I'll take you through the process I follow with people.

I take what they currently have (if anything) and review it, look for open areas or items that aren't well explained, then I interview them for an hour picking up what projects they've completed concentrating on positive numbers for the company they work for, positive projects, and even negative issues. Often, they're sent home with homework to get more information before I proceed if they come up with important stuff that wasn't included before. I then fix (strip of fluff and nonsense) the current resume, add the important, put the text "right" (SO many people think it's more important where they did something than what they actually did. On rare occasion it is important that you worked at a particular place...but more than often, not.), update the format, send it back to them for review. After that we do another half hour interview, incorporate that feedback, and the document is finalized in whatever format they want.

Tangible and intangible results in your job are important. Anything dealing with ROI, process improvement, project oversight or contributions...all of it. Dump it all out and cherry pick the good stuff.

If it's a new resume, or after a long job stint it's usually a two to three hour initial interview. That interview does a couple things: 1 It brings up points from the person's job history that are useful in their future job interviews...it's amazing what people forget they did five years ago (if you have old reviews it occasionally helps to go through them to see what you got praise for 6 years back...). 2 It gives me an insight to their profession and the job they're looking for.

There are some very good web sites out there on writing your own resume. If you're higher up in the company, perhaps you've participated in selecting candidates and have seen positive and negative resumes. Don't copy, but emulate the winning resumes.

Keep in mind that even what a company would see as a negative experience can be put in positive light (if there is no way of getting around mentioning them). Not that anyone here has any negative spots in their resumes.

And don't fluff. If you've been in the workforce for more than five years, you have enough work experience to fill a page that fluff shouldn't be required. Fluff makes it look like you're hiding something or taking credit where credit isn't due.
Of course, there are some fuzzy issues out there that fluff is about the only way you can describe them...but that's another story...

Oh...and on occasion it's ok to go to two pages, or further back than 10 years...but I wouldn't put anything terribly important on the second page...unless you're a riveting writer, your audience has zoned off by then.

Good luck!
:banana:


Oh, on the scanning robots...you're absolutely correct. Even if you mail in a resume to a larger company it often gets scanned and fed through a machine rather than actually read.

There are sites out there that provide the correct key words for getting your resume picked up by the scanners.

[Serotta PETE]

CT Rider -

Seems to me that unless this company has a great deal of experience in your particular field you could likely do just as well including the key words relating to the technologies/subjects you are interested or experienced in. Who knows better the particular jargon of your career field?


This is pretty much my opinion also. For a particular field. there are probably also some folks on the forum that can give you assitance via e-mail.

Many of the tools that firms use now look for specific key words in searches. Additionally, I have found over 30 plus years that peronal contacts are the best way to find out about positions and get the initial "foot in the door"


If anything I can do (IT industry) just send me an e-mail.

Good hunting. PETE

[CT Rider]

Additionally, I have found over 30 plus years that peronal contacts are the best way to find out about positions and get the initial "foot in the door"

Absolutely! I've developed about 23 years of contacts thru my career and indeed they certainly are a MAJOR factor in getting your resume (and you) in the door. It is the job oppurtunities available thru Monster/CB where I have no "inside contacts at the company" that I would like to persue.

My best guess is I have 12-18 months to "relocate" myself, so I am being proactive and not waiting until the bottom falls out!

Great input so far from everyone! Thanks!!!!!!!

[Bradford]

Just to make things a little harder for you, the law is about to change about how a company can select resumes, as described in this article: http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/06/news/economy/annie/annie_0206/index.htm?cnn=yes

I've been on both sides of this issue. I've designed hiring and selection processes for Fortune 500 companies and have done a lot of consulting on hiring and selection. I’ve also looked for several jobs. The advice you are getting so far is pretty good.

I could not feel more strongly that Pete is right; you are much more likely to land a good job through contacts than through a cold reading of your resume. Your resume needs to be good once you get in the door, but even the best resume is not likely to get you in cold. I just took a new job this year. For every 1 quality lead that came from a cold resume drop, I had 10 that came from personal contacts. It does happen, but 10 to 1 is a big spread.

One funny story to show you what you are up against. I did a series of informational interviews for a local company that I was interested in. My contact for the first interview hated my resume and made several suggestions on how I needed to change it if I were to succeed and get a job at his company. He referred me to a colleague for another conversation and I made all the corrections to my resume exactly has he had suggested before that meeting. The second person, like the first, really liked me, but he too hated my resume and said I’d never get a job at that company unless I changed a few things. But here is the good part: the things the 2nd guy hated were the changes that the first guy had me make. The 2nd guy wanted me to change the resume back to the way it was originally. So, the moral of the story is to do your best so your resume has the right key words, the right format, and all of that, but never assume a rational reader. As hard as you work on this, you are still at the mercy of the luck of the draw for who reads it

[Kevan]

networking finds the job.

This is easy for me to say, since not everyone plays by the same rules when looking for work or looking for workers. This is not a popular notion, but honestly, I think, and I'm not alone on this, too much weight is given that freakin' piece of paper. The fact that you, and others, farm out the job of preparing a resume means the material within it isn't a true reflection of who and what you are. That paper is sexed-up, homogenized, pasteurized, spray-painted, and saluted. When I look at a resume, I look for where the guy's been, for how long, and key words that suggest that he MIGHT be what I'm looking for. Otherwise, I call the guy, talk to him, have him meet me. THAT is the real resume.

The piece of paper is a necessary evil especially when it's used as the first filter when screening applicants. Usually, the first screening is done by a HR-type person who thinks they know what's up, you need to appeal to those readers too. You're probably best off if you have a couple different versions to address different situations. Responding to a WSJ ad? Send #1. Doing a network or cold call? Send #2.

Lastly, for heaven sakes have other people read it and proofread it!

Good luck!

[bcm119]

I didn't know resumes could be read by robots! Wow, I'm not sure I'd want a job that I was hired by a robot for... anyway, when did resumes become anything more than a concise style of communication? I suggest writing your own, and as long as its clear, concise and honest, with a readable format, it will work. In the end, people you actually want to work for will hire you based on your experience and character, so let the resume reflect that and only that. imho, ymmv.

[CT Rider]

I didn't know resumes could be read by robots!

The first time I had ever heard that resumes were being scanned electronically for keywords was back around 1992 when technical resumes sent to Intel were accepted and forwarded on for consideration if they had the correct keywords, others were sent to the trash bin.

In better times, my present employer did use the scanning keyword feature to pull potential candidates off of Monster/CB. The question that comes to my mind is: is there any coorelation between hring candidates this way (keyword scanning) and the present state of the company (downward spiral)?? :D :D

[Bradford]

I didn't know resumes could be read by robots! Wow, I'm not sure I'd want a job that I was hired by a robot for

I few years ago I wrote the interview guides for a large company's sales group. The sales group alone received about 300,000 resumes a year. Can you imagine the cost of a person carefully reading 300,000 resumes a year? It just isn't doable. Before job boards and company web pages, it was doable; now, it is just unmanageable for most companies.

A computer (not so much a robot) will scan resumes for key words. So, if the job description calls for x years in Internet forum experience, for example, the computer will look for the words "Internet forum experience" in each resume. (If this were a real example, BBD would have job offers falling out of the sky). So the key learning here is to take the exact words from the job description and adapt your resume to use them for the submission. This means not one or two resumes, but a custom resume for every job you apply for. Lots of work, but the only way to get noticed.

anyway, when did resumes become anything more than a concise style of communication? I suggest writing your own, and as long as its clear, concise and honest, with a readable format, it will work. In the end, people you actually want to work for will hire you based on your experience and character, so let the resume reflect that and only that. imho, ymmv.

This sounds good, but it doesn’t actually work that way. It does for the person that makes the final decision, and that is the person you will be working for, but it doesn’t work for the people decide who will be interviewed, who are often a recruiters or someone from HR.

Hiring decisions should be made on competencies, character, and personal fit, but are often made for much less significant reasons. There is plenty of research that shows the most effective way to hire, but I’d make a rough guess that the number of companies that do it the right way is in the low single digits.

[xlbs]

is that a lot of recruiters, both internal and headhunters, are now doing google searches for the right person. Perhaps you might wish to do a search on yourself to see what's out there now. You may be able to get your google profile improved so that you can address this trend. Have you written any technical papers? Is your name listed in the appropriate on-line list of who's who in your world? Are you the key figure in a press release somewhere?

Also, when I counselled job-seekers I used to remind them, as several have done here, your resume is only a marketing tool to get you in front of the right people. Concentrating on finding the person with the power to hire you, and then getting in front of them, will pay handsomely. Ye ol' personal network will work well for you...

[Ginger]

You know, between this thread, and the book "The Power of Full Engagement" and my trip to the coffee shop after lunch where all these people were working happily on their laptops instead of in a cube farm I thought...hey, I should be looking for a job like that (something that I could take to the coffee shop, swill expresso, and work on my laptop).

Then it dawned on me that those people working on their laptops at the coffee shop in the middle of the afternoon were probably *looking* for a job like mine.

(It's amazing how many people tell me they'd kill to have my job. To be a writer for a living. What they don't understand is it ain't all sitting at coffee shops swilling expresso and discussing literature and politics...*sigh*)

I agree that if you're doing a dedicated/focused search, adjusting your resume to pick up key words in the advertisement often helps get you in the door for an interview. However, unless you are looking at jobs totally outside your realm of experience; if you've written the resume correctly, those words are already in your resume.

I generally use one resume, and change the cover letter to the advert. I have no clue how someone can send out a form cover letter and expect results. (And I get good results from adverts, but I choose the jobs carefully.)

[Tom]

...use one resume, and change the cover letter to the advert. I have no clue how someone can send out a form cover letter and expect results....

Exactly. The resume is about you and never changes until you have done something new. The cover letter tells them that you learned about them and what they are looking for.

It also helps if you know how to write English extremely well and for that I'd hire a pro.

[Bradford]

I used to agree with you two about cover letters. I'd spend at least an hour on each cover letter, sometimes up to four hours to get it just right.

Then last year, when I did my informational interviews, I asked each person I talked to how they screen and evaluate resumes. I was shocked that almost none of them even read the cover letter. The just dropped it in the round file and scanned the resume for key words.

I still read cover letters myself, but I always assume that no one else does and I put everthing they are going to want to see in the resume.

[Ginger]

Ginger = tech writer
cover letter = business communication
cover letter = quick intro to my work

(for some unknown reason, people hiring tech writers read the cover letters, they have to be practically perfect or you don't get the call)

Ginger's proofreading is done by someone else (even for other people's resumes)

:)

[Litespeeder]

First of all, that writer really has no idea about what projects you have worked on or what the details of your daily work life are. Most of these guys are in the employment business because they know that many desparate job seekers are willing to pay good money to help them with their job search. They insert "key words" such as "outstanding" and "multi-tasking" but they cannot write a better resume than you can.

Networking is good but education is becoming even more important. If you have an MS in engineering from MIT on your resume then your chances of getting the jobs are pretty good. If you have a BS from San Diego state and no graduate work then you are one of the thousands of resumes that come into the company every day. I'm not saying that it's fair but it's the way it is. IMO, getting or having a graduate degree under your belt is probably the single most important thing that you can do to stand apart from the others in this economy. Just my opinion.

:bike:

[bcm119]

This sounds good, but it doesn’t actually work that way. It does for the person that makes the final decision, and that is the person you will be working for, but it doesn’t work for the people decide who will be interviewed, who are often a recruiters or someone from HR.

Hiring decisions should be made on competencies, character, and personal fit, but are often made for much less significant reasons. There is plenty of research that shows the most effective way to hire, but I’d make a rough guess that the number of companies that do it the right way is in the low single digits.

Yeah, I should have said it works for me. By that I mean, if I don't get hired for a given job because my resume didn't have the right keyword, nevermind a synonym for it, I'm probably not a good fit. I'm not a Big Company type of person. Call me an idealist (many do), but I'd prefer to work somewhere that reads my resume, understands what it means by interpreting the english language, and offers me an interview based on the interpretation, not to mention reading the freakin cover letter. I include personal stuff on both documents as a fail-safe so I don't get call backs from people just looking for drones. I want to work for someone who appreciates that -probably the single digit percentage of companies you mention- and if they don't, I'm not their guy. I can appreciate why the scanning for keywords process is necessary now, and I guess I have the luxury of not being a victim of it because I'm in a small specialized field. Thanks for the info yo.

[CT Rider]

IMO, getting or having a graduate degree under your belt is probably the single most important thing that you can do to stand apart from the others in this economy.

I've got that base covered - MSEE (Electrical Engineering w/ emphasis on Digital Signal Processing) from Rensselaer Polytech.

[spiderlake]

I concur with the idea of using professional contacts and peer relationships. A lot of jobs are never advertised and you only find out about them through word of mouth and contacts. I believe 100% in the adage of it's not what you know but who you know.

I have had to suffer through some mind numbing resumes and I got to the point where I don't read cover letters, throw out any resume that has errors (words not spelled correctly, dates don't match up) and if the experience sounds too good to be true, it usually is..... That pile gets whittled down further upon the initial phone interview.... 100 resumes equates to about 10 phone interviews that *might* equate to one in-person interview.

Wow, I didn't mean to rant. To stay somewhat on topic, my advice would be to trust only yourself to accurately represent your body of work. You know yourself best and you probably know your field far better than a professional resume company. Best of luck in your search and if you have any interest in Michigan then check out Smith's Aerospace (http://www.smithsjobs.com/) in Grand Rapids. Your education seems to fit the bill.

[eddief]

after working for 5 years as an outplacement consultant and self employed career consultant is that a lot of people tend to get writer's block and bragging block when it comes to sitting down and hammering out an effective resume.

I would never write a resume for someone else, but hundreds of clients have benefitted from having an objective, creative coach on their team when it comes to writing their res.

Accomplishments in the form of Challenge, Actions, Results make a geat model for a well written resume. In the business, we call them C.A.R. stories.