PF 30 creaks

[theprep]

I purchased a 2014 Specialized Stumpjumper Expert Carbon World Cup back in December. It was my first new bike in (4) years. This is my first experience with one of the new bottom bracket standards, PF30. The bike has the 1x11 SRAM XO1 Group.

The riding bliss lasted about 200 miles, and then the creaking started. Mystery creaks drive me nuts.

Here is what I have done to date to try to eliminate creaks:

1. Purchase the Park PF30 tool and removed the stock SRAM Delrin bottom bracket.
2. BB shell measures exactly 46mm in diameter.
3. Reinstalled with assembly lube (Permatex; the grey nasty stuff that is impossible to wipe off your hands and smears on everything. Stays put though). Creak
4. Researched MTBR and other interweb threads for best install methods; pointed towards alloy BB shells and install with Permatex Thread Sealer (not thread locker)
5. Purchased the Wheels Manufacturing Alloy Bottom bracket with Enduro angular contact bearings.
http://www.artscyclery.com/Wheels_Manufacturing_PressFit-30_Bottom_Bracket_AC/descpage-WMMPF30BBAC.html?crumb=RDMCOMPS

6. Cleaned everything with alcohol, installed new BB with thread sealer, kept warm indoors to 2 days, Creak
7. I can hand press the BB into the shell a small amount. I need to use headset press to get the final 6-7 mm into the frame. It seems like a perfect fit.
8. Remove BB (the white thread sealer was still soft and wiped right off?) and reinstall with Assembly lube. Creak
9. Remove chainring spider and reinstall with assembly lube. Creak
10. Remove chainring and 4 bolts, grease everything – Silent
11. Silence lasts (1) 15 mile ride?
12. Swap seat posts. creak
13. Ride with no seat post. Creak
14. Drip Tri-flow on everything in and around front part of drivetrain. Creak
15. How about rear end of drivetrain? Pull cassette and grease freehub body. Silent in driveway!
16. After I ride in woods I will update.

I am going to track this to the end with the hope this helps others with a checklist. If I missed anything, please let me know.
Joe

[christian]

I think what you're missing is a BSC bottom bracket! :) No, seriously, best of luck solving it. I think PF30 is a mess in metal bikes, but it seems to work ok in carbon fiber bikes, so I think it's solvable. If nothing else, Specialized has a good warranty policy.

[Joachim]

I think PF30 is a mess in metal bikes, but it seems to work ok in carbon fiber bikes, so I think it's solvable.

I used to think this too, but I don't anymore. My Firefly has a PF30bb (due to the big down tube that they didnt want to crimp) and I use this:

http://wheelsmfg.com/products/bottom-brackets/pf30-outboard.html

No creaks, zero, nothing. Works perfect. They have one for mountain bikes too.

[truebeliever]

Some of the SPec frame require the use of retaining compond on the bb, Call them up and ask

[theprep]

I think what you're missing is a BSC bottom bracket! :) No, seriously, best of luck solving it. I think PF30 is a mess in metal bikes, but it seems to work ok in carbon fiber bikes, so I think it's solvable. If nothing else, Specialized has a good warranty policy.

I agree. I always had great luck with Shimano BSC and Italian BB's.

[theprep]

I used to think this too, but I don't anymore. My Firefly has a PF30bb (due to the big down tube that they didnt want to crimp) and I use this:

http://wheelsmfg.com/products/bottom-brackets/pf30-outboard.html

No creaks, zero, nothing. Works perfect. They have one for mountain bikes too.

I like this design alot because the 2 halves thread together (as opposed to just being pressed in) and expand within the shell to lock things down. It is for 24mm crank spindles though. I have 30mm.

[theprep]

Some of the SPec frame require the use of retaining compond on the bb, Call them up and ask

MY LBS has a call into Spec. I sure hope they don't recommend some permanent epoxy.

[Joachim]

I like this design alot because the 2 halves thread together (as opposed to just being pressed in) and expand within the shell to lock things down. It is for 24mm crank spindles though. I have 30mm.

Yes, it will require a new crank, but at least it won't creak. On the other hand, maybe its just your skewers :)

[christian]

I used to think this too, but I don't anymore. My Firefly has a PF30bb (due to the big down tube that they didnt want to crimp) and I use this:

http://wheelsmfg.com/products/bottom-brackets/pf30-outboard.html

No creaks, zero, nothing. Works perfect. They have one for mountain bikes too.

I understand that that works ok, but I can't square that I'd rather have a threaded press-in external up to insert into my bottom bracket than just have bigger cups thread into my bb.

Meaning, if somebody wanted to create a MegaBSC-olnago threaded bottom bracket to allow use of threaded oversize bearing cups and 30mm crank axles, I'd be happy to listen.

But there's no way that having press in cups into the bb that the bearing cups then thread into can be considered an elegant solution, even if it's quiet.

[oldpotatoe]

I understand that that works ok, but I can't square that I'd rather have a threaded press-in external up to insert into my bottom bracket than just have bigger cups thread into my bb.

Meaning, if somebody wanted to create a MegaBSC-olnago threaded bottom bracket to allow use of threaded oversize bearing cups and 30mm crank axles, I'd be happy to listen.

But there's no way that having press in cups into the bb that the bearing cups then thread into can be considered an elegant solution, even if it's quiet.

Nothing 'elegant' about BB30/PFBB30/BB86/90 or any of the other BB 'standard', but great big downtubes mean BIG BB shells and BIG headtubes....big decals.

[charliedid]

Check the seatpost? :-)

[PJN]

Rear skewer tight?

[nicrump]

serious question, is the shell ID carbon or aluminum?

[theprep]

serious question, is the shell ID carbon or aluminum?

Single 46mm carbon tube with no seams, no penetrations.

[theprep]

Rear skewer tight?

12mm axle. Greased and tightened with 6 mm allen. Thanx

[Joachim]

I understand that that works ok, but I can't square that I'd rather have a threaded press-in external up to insert into my bottom bracket than just have bigger cups thread into my bb.

Meaning, if somebody wanted to create a MegaBSC-olnago threaded bottom bracket to allow use of threaded oversize bearing cups and 30mm crank axles, I'd be happy to listen.

But there's no way that having press in cups into the bb that the bearing cups then thread into can be considered an elegant solution, even if it's quiet.

Whatev's. You'll buy my Firefly one of these days :)

[christian]

Yeah, ok, that's true. Check and mate.

[nicrump]

with several hundred carbon tubed PF30 shells under my belt, if it measures a true full 46mm, it doesn't pass. i reject my shells that measure over 45.97. i check these with a starrett telescoping bore dia gauge and micrometer.

i'm not saying this is the source of your noise but if you determine it is... either bond it in or see below a fix that actually brings the frame back to spec vs. a bandaid.

this requires some tools and a tad bit of skill but the idea is to build up the ID of the shell with nice even thin coats of reduced laminating resin(epoxy, not HW store 5 minute crap). thin and even is key which means a few very light applications(rather than 1 fat gloppy one) only to the depth you need for PF. once fully cured you will use a modified cylinder hone(one used for honing the cylinder walls of an engine). modification is done by bonding ~180grit alu oxide paper over the stones. chuck up in your dill, hone and check little by little. if you have real measuring tools i'd shoot for 45.95-45.96. when you are done, put a 1mmx45* chamfer on each end.

almost forgot, the ID must be very clean and scuffed before applying the resin.

if you ever overhauled engines, you already get the idea.

Single 46mm carbon tube with no seams, no penetrations.

[John H.]

Yellow Loctite 641 on bb cups?
Check spider on crankset? Likely takes a special tool-

[theprep]

with several hundred carbon tubed PF30 shells under my belt, if it measures a true full 46mm, it doesn't pass. i reject my shells that measure over 45.97. i check these with a starrett telescoping bore dia gauge and micrometer.

i'm not saying this is the source of your noise but if you determine it is... either bond it in or see below a fix that actually brings the frame back to spec vs. a bandaid.

this requires some tools and a tad bit of skill but the idea is to build up the ID of the shell with nice even thin coats of reduced laminating resin(epoxy, not HW store 5 minute crap). thin and even is key which means a few very light applications(rather than 1 fat gloppy one) only to the depth you need for PF. once fully cured you will use a modified cylinder hone(one used for honing the cylinder walls of an engine). modification is done by bonding ~180grit alu oxide paper over the stones. chuck up in your dill, hone and check little by little. if you have real measuring tools i'd shoot for 45.95-45.96. when you are done, put a 1mmx45* chamfer on each end.

almost forgot, the ID must be very clean and scuffed before applying the resin.

if you ever overhauled engines, you already get the idea.

Nick,
You are more courageous than me regarding that resin build up. My gauge does not the have the necessary accuracy. It also only extends about 3mm into the 46mm shell.

Next time I pull the BB I will use my other English unit gauge that extends at least 15mm into the shell and convert to metric. Thanks for the Tolerance value. That could come in handy if it comes to a warranty discussion.

Joe

[jimoots]

I had a similar issue with my Madone (bb90).

It was out of warranty - so I had the bearings shimmed. Tightened up the tolerances and creaking went away.

[parris]

It bothers me that the industry is putting so many new "standards" out that have problems like this. It doesn't matter if it's road, cx, mtn, etc. For a bike that's essentially new to have issues like the op's just isn't cool. How much do you want to bet that in about 2-4 years there'll be a new "standard" and they'll call it a threaded bb. Sorry for the rant.

[Peter P.]

As has already been suggested, check both skewers. But I'd go a step further:

Swap out your wheels.

Swap out your pedals. (Could it be your cleats and not your pedals?)

Remove, regrease, and reinstall your headset cups and crown race if any, and do the same for direct fit bearing cartridges.

Remove and regrease any bolt on derailleur hanger and the contact surface between the hangar and the frame.

[John H.]

Check dumb stuff like bottle cage bolts and derailleur hanger bolt.

A PF30 nightmare drove me back to all threaded bb bikes-

[jimoots]

How much do you want to bet that in about 2-4 years there'll be a new "standard" and they'll call it a threaded bb. Sorry for the rant.

Colnago have got eerily close to this with the C60, haha, thread in cups with press in bearings or something.

[joev]

I didn't see this mentioned, but the Praxis BB Conversion is a great solution to the PF30 creaking issue. I have a NeilPryde Bura SL that developed a creak and I had the PF30 replaced with the Praxis. Now, pure silent bliss. Nothing. Nada.. I might even be getting an extra mph as I stomp on the pedals to try and make it creak. I like that it expands when tightened to lock it in.

[lhuerta]

Use Loctite 641 or 609 and activator....and be done with it. Cannondale, Trek and others have been recommending this Loctite method for years. Lou

[tigoat]

Colnago have got eerily close to this with the C60, haha, thread in cups with press in bearings or something.

Wish they would have gone all the way with a threaded 30mm BB interface without any press-fitting at all. Somebody needs to up the ante on this one!

[oldpotatoe]

It bothers me that the industry is putting so many new "standards" out that have problems like this. It doesn't matter if it's road, cx, mtn, etc. For a bike that's essentially new to have issues like the op's just isn't cool. How much do you want to bet that in about 2-4 years there'll be a new "standard" and they'll call it a threaded bb. Sorry for the rant.

No rant, just reality. Frame makers do this to save $ in manufacturing, period. The 'lighter, stiffer' drivel is just that. Same thing when forks went to threadless then 1 1/8 inch...to save $, not passed on to you, painted as 'performance'...marketing wears me out sometimes...

[blantonator]

I've been using the KCNC/RWC PF30 with 24mm crank on my supersix for a few weeks now and it's been flawless. It was a pretty tight fit and had to press in the one side.

I had a really bad creak on my old niner and it turned out to be a loose derailleur hanger. Other things that have caused me noise have been chain rings and skewers.

[Keith A]

I didn't see this mentioned, but the Praxis BB Conversion is a great solution to the PF30 creaking issue. I have a NeilPryde Bura SL that developed a creak and I had the PF30 replaced with the Praxis. Now, pure silent bliss. Nothing. Nada.. I might even be getting an extra mph as I stomp on the pedals to try and make it creak. I like that it expands when tightened to lock it in.Another vote for the Praxis option. A mechanic friend had a client that constantly had a BB creak in a carbon road bike. He tried all sorts of things including the Wheels Manufacturing solution (I think), but the Praxis BB made the noise go away.

[Joachim]

Another vote for the Praxis option. A mechanic friend had a client that constantly had a BB creak in a carbon road bike. He tried all sorts of things including the Wheels Manufacturing solution (I think), but the Praxis BB made the noise go away.

Wheels Manuf have a few PF30 bb's/adapters. The one that works is similar in design to the Praxis bb. However, wheels manuf does not expand inside the bb.

[cromo900]

Doesn't the praxis option for PF30 require an additional pressed in sleeve that basically adapts their BB30 bottom bracket to PF30? So with PF30 are you still getting the benefits of the collet expanding? I went with a KCNC in my PF30 frame and am also hunting down creaks... not sure it's the bb though.

[WSBA Jr.]

A post from Adam at Praxis on the WW board says the BB30 Campy solution will be released "late spring." I plan to do a Record UT 10 speed install on a BB30 carbon frame bought from a forumite, will try to wait for this piece to become available. Otherwise, guess it would be Parlee's solution.

https://praxiscycles.com/product/conv-bb-campagnolo/

[potatochip]

Wheels manufacturing outboard pf30 is the way to go


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[blantonator]

A post from Adam at Praxis on the WW board says the BB30 Campy solution will be released "late spring." I plan to do a Record UT 10 speed install on a BB30 carbon frame bought from a forumite, will try to wait for this piece to become available. Otherwise, guess it would be Parlee's solution.

https://praxiscycles.com/product/conv-bb-campagnolo/

Those Praxis guys are too in love with Shimano. I'll never understand why it's taken them 2+ years to release a Campy or SRAM model.

[theprep]

15 miles in the trails today. Not a creak anywhere. With no front der. and no chain slap, this bike is quiet.

It may have been chainring bolts in the front and cassette body in the rear.

[theprep]

1:30 of woods riding in the Shoreham hills. Creaking started back up. Bad by the end of the ride.

[oldpotatoe]

1:30 of woods riding in the Shoreham hills. Creaking started back up. Bad by the end of the ride.

Pivots?

[theprep]

Greased der hanger surface where it bolts to frame and der bolt. Both were installed dry from the factory with a whole bunch of blue loctite.

I used a heavier oil on the threaded shaft that runs through the xx1 11 speed cassette.

All is quiet on 50 min shake down run.

Can't ride again until 22nd.

[theprep]

Pivots?

Full rigid bike. No pivots.

[oldpotatoe]

Full rigid bike. No pivots.

Knees?..kidding..good luck, noises can be vexing...

[John H.]

I think I mentioned this- be sure to check the spider on the cranks.
I would even remove it and reinstall with fresh grease or Loctite nd make sure torque is to spec.

Greased der hanger surface where it bolts to frame and der bolt. Both were installed dry from the factory with a whole bunch of blue loctite.

I used a heavier oil on the threaded shaft that runs through the xx1 11 speed cassette.

All is quiet on 50 min shake down run.

Can't ride again until 22nd.

[DRZRM]

I prepped and loctited the Parlee campy adapters into my new to me Firefly and it has been fine so far (4 rides, but short ones). I wanted the Praxis, but if the Parlee stays silent, I'll stick with what I got.

[malbecman]

Here's my favorite go to website for solving those weird bike noises. It's pretty thorough, and I like how he categorizes the different noises to help you troubleshoot those pesky, irritating, gall-durn sounds your bike is making! :)

http://www.jimlangley.net/wrench/keepitquiet.html

[lhuerta]

...lets try this again, before this thread gets any longer. Have you actually tried using Loctite 609 or 641? The reason three or four others have suggested it is because it is widely known as the only solution for fixing creaky PF30 BBs....try it and see for yourself. Lou

[WickedWheels]

I purchased a 2014 Specialized Stumpjumper Expert Carbon World Cup back in December. It was my first new bike in (4) years. This is my first experience with one of the new bottom bracket standards, PF30. The bike has the 1x11 SRAM XO1 Group.

The riding bliss lasted about 200 miles, and then the creaking started. Mystery creaks drive me nuts.

Here is what I have done to date to try to eliminate creaks:

1. Purchase the Park PF30 tool and removed the stock SRAM Delrin bottom bracket.
2. BB shell measures exactly 46mm in diameter.
3. Reinstalled with assembly lube (Permatex; the grey nasty stuff that is impossible to wipe off your hands and smears on everything. Stays put though). Creak
4. Researched MTBR and other interweb threads for best install methods; pointed towards alloy BB shells and install with Permatex Thread Sealer (not thread locker)
5. Purchased the Wheels Manufacturing Alloy Bottom bracket with Enduro angular contact bearings.
http://www.artscyclery.com/Wheels_Manufacturing_PressFit-30_Bottom_Bracket_AC/descpage-WMMPF30BBAC.html?crumb=RDMCOMPS

6. Cleaned everything with alcohol, installed new BB with thread sealer, kept warm indoors to 2 days, Creak
7. I can hand press the BB into the shell a small amount. I need to use headset press to get the final 6-7 mm into the frame. It seems like a perfect fit.
8. Remove BB (the white thread sealer was still soft and wiped right off?) and reinstall with Assembly lube. Creak
9. Remove chainring spider and reinstall with assembly lube. Creak
10. Remove chainring and 4 bolts, grease everything – Silent
11. Silence lasts (1) 15 mile ride?
12. Swap seat posts. creak
13. Ride with no seat post. Creak
14. Drip Tri-flow on everything in and around front part of drivetrain. Creak
15. How about rear end of drivetrain? Pull cassette and grease freehub body. Silent in driveway!
16. After I ride in woods I will update.

I am going to track this to the end with the hope this helps others with a checklist. If I missed anything, please let me know.
Joe

Joe,
Stop messing around and stop by the shop.

If you want to do it yourself, the solution is Loctite 609. It's designed for "dis-similar" materials like an aluminum BB and a carbon shell. Clean it all off the best the you can. Wipe everything down with rubbing alcohol. If you want to have a long-term solution try to build up the Loctite on the shell like you would tubular glue on a rim with a couple of thin layers and then glue it in. It's not permanent and you'll have to re-do it after a while, but should keep it silent for some time.

FWIW, I've had the BB in stock (for the same price as Art's) and installation would've been covered. Shop local!

Alex
Bicycle Playground

[theprep]

I am pretty sure (99.9%) the noises were from the numerous threaded connections that were secured with blue loctite from the factory:

-chain-ring bolts
-derailleur hanger
-derailleur bolt
-chain ring spider bolts where they attach to crank

When I went to loosen each of these connections I heard the same creaking sound that I would hear out on the trail. I removed all the blue and greased things up.

I've had silence for about 6 rides now.

Thank you forum for all the advice.

cheers,
Joe

[theprep]

Joe,
Stop messing around and stop by the shop.

If you want to do it yourself, the solution is Loctite 609. It's designed for "dis-similar" materials like an aluminum BB and a carbon shell. Clean it all off the best the you can. Wipe everything down with rubbing alcohol. If you want to have a long-term solution try to build up the Loctite on the shell like you would tubular glue on a rim with a couple of thin layers and then glue it in. It's not permanent and you'll have to re-do it after a while, but should keep it silent for some time.

FWIW, I've had the BB in stock (for the same price as Art's) and installation would've been covered. Shop local!

Alex
Bicycle Playground

Alex,

I should have stopped by. I am not used to bike shops being so well equipped and stocked as yours. I automatically assumed I would have to go online to get that BB.

Talk soon,

Joe

[theprep]

I am pretty sure (99.9%) the noises were from the numerous threaded connections that were secured with blue loctite from the factory:

-chain-ring bolts
-derailleur hanger
-derailleur bolt
-chain ring spider bolts where they attach to crank

When I went to loosen each of these connections I heard the same creaking sound that I would hear out on the trail. I removed all the blue and greased things up.

I've had silence for about 6 rides now.

Thank you forum for all the advice.

cheers,
Joe

Just found this video. Backs up my experience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faKK9j9DI4Q

[avalonracing]

Just found this video. Backs up my experience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faKK9j9DI4Q

Wow. I would smash that thing with a hammer.

[theprep]

Creaking came back with a vengeance last month. Long story short and hopefully useful information for some MTB riders:

The Wheels Manufacturing BB developed 2 problems. The rubber o-rings that help keep things quiet, disintegrated and the non-drive side bearing was toast. This occurred in maybe 600-700 miles of use. Without the o-rings the alloy cups just rattle around in the 46 mm, PF30 opening.

I installed a Chris King and was pissed when the bike still creaked. Re-greased and re-torqued everything, still a bad noise under heavy loads.

The secondary noise turned out to be the Wolf Tooth Components Direct Mount 34 chainring. It is 4mm thick and seems beefy. It is not beefy enough though and flexes under heavy loads and makes your drivetrain sound like someone threw a handful of sand at your cassette.

I put the stock 32 tooth SRAM spider / chainring combo back on.....Silence. I will be sticking to stock SRAM 104 mm chainrings from now on.

1x11 drivetrains as so quiet in the woods when working properly.

[Idris Icabod]

Useful thread for me. My Ti hard tail is creaking to all hell, popped the BB and was going to use Loctite blue. I'm using a CK BB and Shimano XTR cranks. I'm almost at the point where I'm going to go shopping for a Ti hard tail with a threaded BB. My Santa Cruz has never creaked.

[lhuerta]

Wheels Manufacturing BB = $75
Chris King BB = $200
Almost $300 spent on temporary fixes....???

Loctite 609 = $10 (permanent fix)

Unfortunately, with so many BB cups rattling around your shell, you have probably already grinded so much material from ur BB shell, which potentially makes the Loctites solution null