any real alternative to an mxl?

[Climb01742]

as my position on a bike is evolving higher and longer, some of my bikes may prove too small. my mx leader may be one. getting the bars up where they need to be may be hard, if not impossible (or a visual circus bike). crap, crap, crap. i love how the mxl rides. is there any true, modern "clone"? and what the heck makes an mxl ride as uniquely as it does? no other steel frame i've ridden rides the same. as i said earlier... :crap: :crap: :crap:

[TimD]

Inquiring minds want to know... :)

TimD

[Len J]

as my position on a bike is evolving higher and longer, some of my bikes may prove too small. my mx leader may be one. getting the bars up where they need to be may be hard, if not impossible (or a visual circus bike). crap, crap, crap. i love how the mxl rides. is there any true, modern "clone"? and what the heck makes an mxl ride as uniquely as it does? no other steel frame i've ridden rides the same. as i said earlier... :crap: :crap: :crap:

Why not just get a larger MXL?

They are around.....you just have to be persistant and look for them.

Len

[Fixed]

bro have you tried the jerks b.l.e. you might like that cheers :beer:

[Climb01742]

Why not just get a larger MXL?

They are around.....you just have to be persistant and look for them.

Len

len, that's part of why i asked. a larger mxl may be the best alternative.

tim, i haven't. but trust me, it's on my list to try. have you seen the 06 duende paint, the circle pattern? way cool. ;)

fixed, even the jerk says the ble is a way way stiff ride, too stiff for this wimp.:rolleyes:

[Len J]

len, that's part of why i asked. a larger mxl may be the best alternative.

tim, i haven't. but trust me, it's on my list to try. have you seen the 06 duende paint, the circle pattern? way cool. ;)

fixed, even the jerk says the ble is a way way stiff ride, too stiff for this wimp.:rolleyes:

I sold an MXL once....I'll never do it again. One will always be in my stable.

The experiment might be to challange a Dave Kirk to emulate the MXL......That might be interesting.

Len

[slowgoing]

Part of what makes it great is that overbuilt but smooth as can be fork. I put one on my Colnago masterlight, which I liked better than the rest of the MXL, and now I have the perfect long distance cruiser.

[Big Dan]

Corsa........... :D

[jerk]

len, that's part of why i asked. a larger mxl may be the best alternative.

tim, i haven't. but trust me, it's on my list to try. have you seen the 06 duende paint, the circle pattern? way cool. ;)

fixed, even the jerk says the ble is a way way stiff ride, too stiff for this wimp.:rolleyes:


climb-o-

most of the reason the jerk's ble rides the way it does is due to the geometry. nonetheless, the jerk doesn't think its the right bike for you if you want another mx leader. dario could do it, for sure but he probably would say "marcelo, marcelo, marcelo." if you asked him for a pure classics bike.

honestly what makes an mx leader an mx leader is a combination of the geometry, the tubing, the method of construction, the eddy pixie dust and the whole thing e-richie refers to as "gestalt".

the closest thing to an mx leader that isn't an mx leader would be colnago master x light with the prescia fork. another big guy steel bike with nice stable euro geometry.

the jerk would strongly suggest another mx leader.

jerk

[jerk]

Corsa........... :D


for whatever reason its not the same. with the later corsa 0.1s (and the jerk would assume the new corsa extras as well although he is not sure) there was not enough attention payed to the front end of the bike. historically merckx tweaked head angles, rakes and front centers as his bikes got bigger. with the shift to the "budget" corsa; they were all designed around the same fork to save costs as far as the jerk can tell. hence, they are still great bikes; but not as great as the mx leaders.

jerk

[Big Dan]

Well, I just sold my MX....kept my Corsa........ :p
It was a 56. I'm sure that at a bigger size the MXL would have won out.

[Climb01742]

i tried a corsa. for me it felt very different. and my marcelo, while wonderful in many ways, wasn't nearly as smooth and forgiving over bad roads. my cIII and CSi are/were both traditionally steel smooth but an mxl is just at another level of stability and smoothness.

speaking hypothetically, if a builder were given the design goal of a modern day mxl, ride-wise, would they have to use max tubing or could other tubing be used, and via design and pixie dust (or maybe richie dust ;)) achieve a mxl-esque ride? don ferris mentioned a while ago that he still had some max tubing (whether he still does, who knows.) but i wonder, is max tubing part of the mxl mojo or is it design, which could be achieved with other pipes?

[Len J]

i tried a corsa. for me it felt very different. and my marcelo, while wonderful in many ways, wasn't nearly as smooth and forgiving over bad roads. my cIII and CSi are/were both traditionally steel smooth but an mxl is just at another level of stability and smoothness.

speaking hypothetically, if a builder were given the design goal of a modern day mxl, ride-wise, would they have to use max tubing or could other tubing be used, and via design and pixie dust (or maybe richie dust ;)) achieve a mxl-esque ride? don ferris mentioned a while ago that he still had some max tubing (whether he still does, who knows.) but i wonder, is max tubing part of the mxl mojo or is it design, which could be achieved with other pipes?

When I look at my MXL I see (with my admittidly untrained eye) the following unique attributes:

1.) Max tubing
2.) Shaped tubes and lugs.....that Downtube that is ovalized one way at the head tube and another at the BB is way cool and the shaped lugs to accept it.
3.) Mega Chainstays
4.) Geometry
5.) Unique fork design that looks like it would jar your teeth but which actually swallows up chop.
6.) Mojo dust (Thanks Jerk) I know it's there, just can't name it.

All of these, it would seem to me combine and contribute to the MXL ride......all of these would need to be present. I think it would be a fun experiment.......why don't you open a dialog with Dave and a few other builders and see what they think......I think a good builder with an inquisitive mind would love a project like this.

Len

[OldDog]

Two years ago, after listening (reading) 'youse guys gushing over the MXL, I snagged a NOS off ebay for $800.00. As has been posted, the bike is magical in it's characteristics. I'll keep this bike 'till the day I can no longer physically ride it, hopefully many years to come.

Climb - what size do you need? Collectively we can all keep an eye out for one your size.

[Tailwinds]

why don't you open a dialog with Dave and a few other builders and see what they think......I think a good builder with an inquisitive mind would love a project like this.


I was thinking the same thing, Len. Dave, e-Richie, or Carl Strong (if you can go sans lugs)... maybe they'd enjoy this experiment.

[cpg]

The gushing about the MXL shows how geometry can trump many things. Max tubing is way heavy, stiff and has been a commercial failure for many reasons. The EM bikes aren't renowned for great quality control. Their front end geometries are all over the place. Yet Climb finds his comfortable and bump absorbing. How's this possible with tankish tubing? It's quite simple. The bike is built with an only slightish slankened seat tube. This is the only unique thing going on with these bikes. Sorry, no pixie dust. Does it work? Absolutely! Given that most factory bikes utilize a steeper seat tube angle, this change becomes an eyeopener to many. Their front end geos could be way better but at least EM gets it with regard to seat angles/set back. Keep an eye open Climb and I bet you'll find a larger one. I'm glad to see that you're searching for a larger bike. Too many people get "fitted" on bikes that are too small and almost nobody gets fitted on bikes that are too big. But that's a whole other thread.

Curt

[GregL]

This thread has reminded me of how much I like the MX Leader. I am keeping an eye out in case one shows up for sale in my size. The question is, what size MX Leader do I need? For reference, I am 6' tall with long upper body, currently ride a 57 (C-T) Cannondale with 56.75 cm (C-C) top tube and 130 mm stem.

I've found some limited MX Leader geometry charts, but they only appear to tell part of the story. Does anyone have a pointer to a complete geometry chart, one including BB drop and head tube length?

Thanks,
Greg

[Climb01742]

Climb - what size do you need? Collectively we can all keep an eye out for one your size.

i have a 55 now. the biggest challenge will, i think, be headtube length, so the bars can be at the right height. as has been pointed out, mxl geo charts don't list HT length. i think a 57 or 58 might be good.

[Len J]

i have a 55 now. the biggest challenge will, i think, be headtube length, so the bars can be at the right height. as has been pointed out, mxl geo charts don't list HT length. i think a 57 or 58 might be good.


I have a 58...if you want HT measurements etc.......let me know.

You and i are pretty similarly sized (I think).

Let me know.

Len

[coylifut]

i have a 55 now. the biggest challenge will, i think, be headtube length, so the bars can be at the right height. as has been pointed out, mxl geo charts don't list HT length. i think a 57 or 58 might be good.

I have a 57 Corsa .01 (2002) that has identical geo to the mx leader according to the charts I've seen. As I recall, it's Merckx century geometry. The fork rake is however different than a MXL. It has a really slack seat tube angle at 72.39. I'm 5'11 with not a long torso and my femurs are very average. Consequently, I use a Thomson straight seat post with the saddle jamed all the way back. Ideally, I could use a post with 1.5 cm of set back to center the saddle, but I feel no reason to spend the money. Mine has a quill stem and I bought it NOS. I've fabricated fenders for it and ride it more than any other bike in my humble stable. I've thought about getting a 56, but my best fit is likely between a 56 and 57.

I remember one of your recent comments being that your position is being moved up and out. That's exactly what Tom Kellog did with me a few years ago. He moved me up 2 CMs and out 1. I now have a 7 cm saddle to bar drop. I separated my hip a few years before that and it limited my range of motion significantly. Last year, he moved me back down 1 cm and I now feel like I need to go out 1 cm.

Sorry. I don't have a point, just a random stream of conciousness.

Take care.

[OldDog]

Curt - what's your take on the fork blades of the MXL? Is this a design that may tone down the vibes from the road? What about the gauge of the MXL's tubes? Doing a scientific "twang" with my finger, these tubes seems much thinner in the mid-section than other modern steel tubes.

I previously stated I found the bike "magical". Sorry, I was caught up in the moment! I do however find it very smooth on the PA chip seal back roads. Smoother and more comfortable than my straight gauge Spectrum Ti with Time Millinium fork (bought as a stock frame, not custom). I run OP's 3X on the Spectrum and Aeroheads 3X on the MXL, both with 23c Conti's. I'm 185-190ish pounds, when I am on the wagon. And no noticable noodeling when I tromp down on the pedals or climbing.

Lastly, posing this to you as frambuilder, do you think you could recreate the ride of the MXL, given the lugs/tubes available to you (assuming MAX and EM lugs are not available)?

Thanks - OD

[cpg]

The fork blade design was to stiffen up the blades. I'm not saying they do but that was the design premise. The blades along with the tubes were/are drawn to specs that in today's standard would be considered a medium gauge. I hope I didn't sound like a buzz kill. I'm glad people dig the ride. I just can't sign up for the notion of some kind of magic that only resides within a particular builder. With that said, sure I could recreate that ride as could plenty of other builders. The tubes and lugs are currently available. With that said, personally I'd change the front end. The whole as some call it European geometry seems less than optimal to me. Been there, built it, rode it and got over it. Serotta could recreate the ride quite easily. Their baseball bat tubes could easily replace the max tubes and they do custom geos. I don't think you'll talk them into lugs though. They've been there, built it and got over it. :)

Curt

[fiamme red]

There was a Tommasini Velocista, made with Columbus MAX, on eBay. The auction ended a few days ago. Beautiful frame and fork!

[dbrk]

A bit of history, though it's not all particularly enlightening.

This has to be the only forum or collective venue of any sort that I have ever heard offer such plaudits to the ol'MX Leader. Don't mistake me, I love those bikes but it's so funny how old ideas seem new. I too have been reluctant to be the naysayer or kill the buzz of anyone who loves these bikes but let me (re)iterate a few points and start by saying that I remember when they came out, I've owned I think three or four over the years, and I like this particular EM model because it has relatively relaxed geos in comparison to many other bikes.

First, the tubeset was, as CPG so correctly notes, a complete commercial failure. It was considered so heavy and overbuilt that EM sold it primarily to big and powerful riders. They did not recommend it for normal sized folks and rationalized its weight with the particular stiffness it afforded powerful fellas. The Corsa was built for years with identical geometries and meant to provide a more lithe alternative for nonClydesdales. Second, the EM "magic" lies almost exclusively in the "slack" sta and plenty of setback feature, which is relatively (and unfortunately) uncommon. However, a good bit of gushing over Dario's ride is, I submit, for the very same reasons: Pegorettis are slacker in sta and offer more setback than nearly any other "race" bike. Last, the tubes, the tubes, the tubes. Puuuulleeeze, stop. Once you achieve a certain degree of stiffness, compliance, etc., it's not in the tubes, it's in the whole design and primarily in the numbers (sta, hta, f/r, bb drop, etc.) that as a group create the overall geometry and hence the "ride." The lugged EM bikes of yore are of varying quality: some really nice and clean, others far less so. Building such a bike with lugs or not is _irrelevant_ to the ride and has NO effect. Lugs are an aesthetic choice and, if you simply must be practical, a far better way to accomplish a repair if things get bent up.

I'd not worry too much about a bike a few centimeters bigger for two reasons. First, almost everyone is sized too small and has plenty of standover. Standover is waaay overrated as a fit feature because it has nothing to do with the way a bike fits. You don't standover to ride. Second, as the front end comes up the tt becomes effectively shorter which means that you can use a longer stem and keep the balance of the bike proper (i.e., you don't get too far back with your weight anyways). Getting the handlebars taller (or put another way, reducing bar/saddle drop) need not upset a great deal of anything if you are careful and smart. If you need help with a taller bike ask someone who really understands it, like Curt Goodrich, KP, or others. We're not talking "touring" bikes here because most "race" bikes are just too steep and especially too short in the rear and that's why when you get on a bike like an EM with "century" geos or a stock Pegoretti you feel more planted, more stable, and you like the ride better.
Just one geek's opinion, of course.

dbrk

[jeffg]

The gushing about the MXL shows how geometry can trump many things. Max tubing is way heavy, stiff and has been a commercial failure for many reasons. The EM bikes aren't renowned for great quality control. Their front end geometries are all over the place. Yet Climb finds his comfortable and bump absorbing. How's this possible with tankish tubing? It's quite simple. The bike is built with an only slightish slankened seat tube. This is the only unique thing going on with these bikes. Sorry, no pixie dust. Does it work? Absolutely! Given that most factory bikes utilize a steeper seat tube angle, this change becomes an eyeopener to many. Their front end geos could be way better but at least EM gets it with regard to seat angles/set back. Keep an eye open Climb and I bet you'll find a larger one. I'm glad to see that you're searching for a larger bike. Too many people get "fitted" on bikes that are too small and almost nobody gets fitted on bikes that are too big. But that's a whole other thread.

Curt


It does surprise me that bikes seem to get steeper and steeper STAs.

I ride with a 73 STA & I am 5'9."

Many current bikes in my size us a 73.5 or 74. Even Look, which used to have a 73 or even 72.35 has gone to a 73.75 in a "L" with the 585!

The real challenge is finding a production bike with 73 or slacker in a 55-56 size with a BB drop greater than 7.

I see builders like Serotta, Hampsten, cpg & E-Ritchie(?) as the folks who make bikes like that.

Dario generally has a 7cm drop and a 73STA, but I bet riding a custom Marcelo through the Dolomites is something special ... Maybe it's not pixie dust, but it's mojo :banana:

[Climb01742]

The fork blade design was to stiffen up the blades. I'm not saying they do but that was the design premise. The blades along with the tubes were/are drawn to specs that in today's standard would be considered a medium gauge. I hope I didn't sound like a buzz kill. I'm glad people dig the ride. I just can't sign up for the notion of some kind of magic that only resides within a particular builder. With that said, sure I could recreate that ride as could plenty of other builders. The tubes and lugs are currently available. With that said, personally I'd change the front end. The whole as some call it European geometry seems less than optimal to me. Been there, built it, rode it and got over it. Serotta could recreate the ride quite easily. Their baseball bat tubes could easily replace the max tubes and they do custom geos. I don't think you'll talk them into lugs though. They've been there, built it and got over it. :)

Curt

curt, the spirit of this reply is to continue the discussion...in no way to i mean it to be argumenative...i owned a CSi and i have a cIII now...and the ride of the mxl is, no disrespect meant to serotta, more sublime, IMO. which honestly amazes me. the CSi was lighter, more modern tubing, custom built and geo. yet i like how the mxl rides better. i'm trying to figure out why. the mxl is the only steel ride i can honestly say i love. if i were to ask a builder to replicate the ride, i'm not sure how i'd describe it...and given my experience with as justifiably-revered frame as a CSi, i'd feel a bit nervous that i'd get something equal to a mxl. again, i truly am not arguing. i'm trying to understand what makes the mxl what it is. thanks for taking part in the discussion. :beer:

[Len J]

ridng as many bikes as you have douglas, but I have to say that my experience does not mimic what you wrote.

I've been riding bikes for 30 years, and in that time I have ridden many bikes with both slack and steep STA's, and while I prefer slack STA's as you do, I don't believe that this is the primary reason that the MXL rides as wonderfully as it does.

Yes the century geometry is a big contributor, absolutly, but there is more to it than that. I have ridden a corsa extensivly and an MXL extensivly and IMO there is no comparison in the ride...both had the exact same geometry, wheels, tires and groups, same seats, handlebars and pedals....the only difference was the frame........(and I'm a 160 lb spinner before you attribute it to my clydsdale status.) The MXL is more responsive while at the same time more comfortable over rougher roads.......How do you explain that?

I have never found a bike with the same combination of ride characteristics (Pixie dust comment aside ......which was clearly tounge in cheek)....I keep looking but to no avail.

As I say, it's more than the geometry....I'm not smart enough to figure out what it is....but it is definatly more than just geometry.

Len

[sspielman]

When something works, I accept it. It stands to reason that the greatest bike racer of all time...who consulted with one of the greatest framebuilders of all time in setting up his factory....would know something about imparting a certain mojo on a bike. Some builders get it, and some do not.

[Dr. Doofus]

climb-o

here is what you do


cpg knows the deal

have him make a bike around yuor fit poitns

or

have him make a bike around these fit points:

saddle height: 79cm

saddle setback: 7.5cm

saddle tip to bar center: 56.5cm

saddle to bar drop: 9.5cm

doof says it will be the absolute bestest bike you've ever had, but if you don't like it, doof will take it off your hands for next to nothin

[andy mac]

a question for the esteemed frame builders:

just wondering... do you get any variance in frames even if you use the same materials, geo, technique etc??? could one mxl ride differently to another the same size?

for example the same model and length ski all made at the same factory under the same conditions vary a lot. the big diff is the flex. some come out stiff tail/soft tip, stiff tip/soft tail etc, etc.

once you know what you like you can send the factory your digits and they can hook you up.

also ski bases vary hugely. over just 100 meters some downhill skis we tested were 0.2 secs faster than others. a huge diff.

could you love one mxl and not another?

[OldDog]

Last, the tubes, the tubes, the tubes. Puuuulleeeze, stop. Once you achieve a certain degree of stiffness, compliance, etc., it's not in the tubes, it's in the whole design and primarily in the numbers (sta, hta, f/r, bb drop, etc.) that as a group create the overall geometry and hence the "ride."
dbrk


I agree that, once you reach that level of stiffness and compliance, it's not in the tubes but in the designer/builders hands. Assuming any manufacturer, Columbus, Reynolds, etc. has an alloy with the needed characteristics with equal specs, then, where does the shaping of those tubes take you?

In the case of the MXL I posed my question to Curt as, could the very same ride be achieved, -not- using MAX tubes. (Mention of lugs is made, assuming, maybe incorrectly, MAX tubes are not tig compatible and MAX compatible lugs are no longer readily available.) In the case of Pegs (none of which I have ever had a chance to ride) Dario uses tubes of varying diameters, some gussited (BLT) to acheive a ride characteristic.

The shaping/working of a tube has an effect on the end result, stiffness/compliance wise beyond steel composition. Is this end result (MXL, BLE) repeatable with an off the shelve single/double/triple whatever butted tube?

[jerk]

the max tubes were/are generally tig'ed. merckx had special lugs made for those tubes and oriented them in a different manner than most max tubed bikes. take this with a grain of salt, but according to merckx and some other people, the lugged bike had a little bit more "spring" to it than the tig'ed prototypes; the idea being that lugs are really thin, max tubes are pretty think, and those areas wouldn't be as stiff and overbuilt as on a tig'ed max bike......this coupled with the geometry resulting in the magic stiff, solid, comfortable ride the mx leader has.


jerk

[Grant McLean]

I remember chatting with Steve Bauer a few years back,
and of course took the opportunity to quiz him about the
bikes he'd raced. He absolutely hated the MAX bikes.

One man's ceiling is another man's floor*

-G

(*read it somewhere?)

[Grant McLean]

the max tubes were/are generally tig'ed. merckx had special lugs made for those tubes and oriented them in a different manner than most max tubed bikes. take this with a grain of salt, but according to merckx and some other people, the lugged bike had a little bit more "spring" to it than the tig'ed prototypes; the idea being that lugs are really thin, max tubes are pretty think, and those areas wouldn't be as stiff and overbuilt as on a tig'ed max bike......this coupled with the geometry resulting in the magic stiff, solid, comfortable ride the mx leader has.


jerk

I have a buddy who was a hobby builder in the '90s.
He fillet brazed a max tubeset into a frame for himself,
but flipped the top tube orientation 90'. He likes the
bike, and he's 6'4 and over 200lbs, 60x60cm. I could
easily ride inside the main triangle...

-g

[Climb01742]

I have a 58...if you want HT measurements etc.......let me know.

You and i are pretty similarly sized (I think).

Let me know.

Len

len, i would be curious about 1) it's HT length; 2) your contact points; and 3) do you have a pix of the frame, to see the "numbers" in context. thanks very much.

[Len J]

len, i would be curious about 1) it's HT length; 2) your contact points; and 3) do you have a pix of the frame, to see the "numbers" in context. thanks very much.


1.) HT Length is 17.9 CM

other geometry

ST Length 58
Effect TT 57.3
TT Slope 0
Standover 83.75
Head Angle
Seat Angle 72.26
Rake 4.3
Chainstay length 40.5
Wheel Base 100
HT Length 17.9
Setback 17.5
Front Center 60

2.) Contact points

Bike is set up with the following Equipement.

172.5 mm Cranks
Dura Ace Post
Brooks Swallow saddle centered on the Rails
Ritchey 12 Cm 84 degree Stem on 1 CM spacer on Chris King Headset
Nitto M-184 Bars with 10 CM of reach

I have an 88CM Bike inseam, I am 6'0" tall

Center of BB to top of seat up the seat tube is 75.25 CM

Saddle to bar drop is 5 CM

I am set up approx 2.5 CM behind KOP

Distance from sit-bone points on saddle to center of Bars is 79 CM (Add 10 for Bar reach to get to Hoods) I'm more stretched out on this bike compared to my others by about a cm.

3.) Pictures below.

Let me know if i can get you any other measurements

Len

Other pictures http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=9250

[Len J]

Climb:

here is what you need to do.

1.) Plan a weekend trip to DC in the coming months

2.) We'll organize a ride of the Baltimore crowd....Smiley, Fly, Too Tall, Sandy, Spectrum Bob, and many others...maybe even get sspeilman to show

3.) I'll set the Merckx up for you and you can ride it for the weekend.

That way you'll be sure before you buy one.

Between us we can find bars & stems that will work for you, you bring the seat.

That will work a lot better than measurements.

Plus we'll all have a great time.

Len

[e-RICHIE]

apologies if this has been stated before...




max stuff was so incrediby over-spec'd, it' laughable, but
undertstandable; it was intro-ed during the era in which
the steel suppliers were trying to eek one last generation
out of the material before nonferrous would become the norm.
as with many things (this won't surprise you), i think you like
the sum total of the merckx build and what they did with it in
your size. if you are really a 5'10", 152lb kinda' guy, i have a
hard time believing that material is/was targeted at you, so
i must defer to the gestalt theory.

[Len J]

apologies if this has been stated before...




max stuff was so incrediby over-spec'd, it' laughable, but
undertstandable; it was intro-ed during the era in which
the steel suppliers were trying to eek one last generation
out of the material before nonferrous would become the norm.
as with many things (this won't surprise you), i think you like
the sum total of the merckx build and what they did with it in
your size. if you are really a 5'10", 152lb kinda' guy, i have a
hard time believing that material is/was targeted at you, so
i must defer to the gestalt theory.

If you're talking to Climb, you may have the size right...me I'm 6'0' 160lbs....but your point is still well made......the bike shouldn't ride like it does...it should be harsh as hell, it should beat us little (or middling) guys up, but it doesn't. I've done 150 miles on this bike and it didn't beat me up.

How's it do that/

len

[Big Dan]

I'm 5'11 -195 pounds and found mine to be a "load".
So rigid that it was difficult to get it going.
For me the Corsa is a better alternative . i.m.h.o......bro


:beer:

[e-RICHIE]

If you're talking to Climb, you may have the size right...me I'm 6'0' 160lbs....but your point is still well made......the bike shouldn't ride like it does...it should be harsh as hell, it should beat us little (or middling) guys up, but it doesn't. I've done 150 miles on this bike and it didn't beat me up.

How's it do that/

len

How's it do that?
design over-rides material iirc atmo.

[manet]

http://www.sciencecartoonsplus.com/miracle.gif

[Len J]

How's it do that?
design over-rides material iirc atmo.

Whatever it is I like it.

that's what they call experience isn't it?

Len

[e-RICHIE]

Whatever it is I like it.

that's what they call experience isn't it?

Len


yes-issimo

[parallelfish]

1.) HT Length is 17.9 CM



This is interesting. I also have a 58 cm MXL, and the HT length is 16.83

Agreed, for whatever reason, the ride is beyond expectation. I am really enamoured with this bike.

[Len J]

This is interesting. I also have a 58 cm MXL, and the HT length is 16.83

Agreed, for whatever reason, the ride is beyond expectation. I am really enamoured with this bike.

when I get home this w/e.

Len

[Fixed]

bro some see the glass half empty some half full cheers :beer:

[fiamme red]

Tommasini Velocista:

eBay #7215724779 (http://cgi.ebay.com/TOMMASINI-VELOCISTA-ULTRA-RARE-MAX-TUBE-COLNAGO-MERCKX_W0QQitemZ7215724779QQcategoryZ98084QQssPage NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Gorgeous frame and fork! Someday the Velocista (Columbus MAX) and the Diamante (Columbus MS) will be very collectible, in my opinion.

[Climb01742]

this thread has been sorta fascinating. i believe that what douglas, curt and richie say is true. by all objective standards, a mxl is nothing special. and its ride should be easily replicated, if not surpassed. their collective knowledge can't be dismissed. but then you have the subjective, personal experiences of riders. what seems to be a surprising number of riders. it may be one of those instances in life where two statements, that are opposed, are still, somehow, both true. it's nuthin' special. yet it's quite special. viva life. viva a laughing universe. :p

[cpg]

Well said James. I too believe both to be true. I have no doubt you and Len and many others love the bike and what's not to like? But like I was originally stated the design has so much of an effect on the ride. The max tubing is heavy and stiff. That's a fact. If we ignored th effect of design, a frame built with the stuff should be heavy, stiff and harsh riding. The first two can't be avoided with the material but the fact harshness is missing shows the effect design can have in the end. Also it should be pointed out that some still don't like the ride of this bike so everyone is different and has different preferences. When you look at the geometry of this bike compared to other mainstream offerings the geometries are so similar with one exception, the seat angle. The slacker seat angle changes weight distribution and thus changes the way bumps feel. It changes other things too but that's a whole other discussion.

In regard to your earlier post regarding your CSi, I don't know what the design of it was but I suspect while it was close to your MXL it probably wasn't exactly like same as your Belgian beauty. If it was maybe your opinion of it would have changed. Happy hunting.

Curt

[Len J]

The slacker seat angle changes weight distribution and thus changes the way bumps feel. It changes other things too but that's a whole other discussion.


Curt

If I have two bikes with the same wheelbase, the same front center and the same position over the BB......with 2 different STA's, wouldn't my weight distribution over the bike be exactly the same?

I don't get this slacker STA changing weight distribution unless my position relative to the BB is different.

Can you enlighten this idiot?

Thanks

len

[e-RICHIE]

If I have two bikes with the same wheelbase, the same front center and the same position over the BB......with 2 different STA's, wouldn't my weight distribution over the bike be exactly the same?

I don't get this slacker STA changing weight distribution unless my position relative to the BB is different.

Can you enlighten this idiot?

Thanks

len

your example would "work" if the tt was taken into account
and cancelled out the diff made by changing sta's.

[Len J]

your example would "work" if the tt was taken into account
and cancelled out the diff made by changing sta's.

Makes sense.....I was thinking more about the same contact points in both cases.....

Since I set up over the BB the same bike to bike, and then set up the seat to Bar reach the same........I suppose the only way I would notice the STA difference was on bikes with either different wheelbases or different front centers....which is a whole different variable effect.

I must be a geek...this stuff fascinates me.

Thanks

len

[cpg]

Exactly. It's all connected. Change one thing and it effects other things.

Curt

[72gmc]

Tommasini Velocista:

eBay #7215724779 (http://cgi.ebay.com/TOMMASINI-VELOCISTA-ULTRA-RARE-MAX-TUBE-COLNAGO-MERCKX_W0QQitemZ7215724779QQcategoryZ98084QQssPage NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Gorgeous frame and fork! Someday the Velocista (Columbus MAX) and the Diamante (Columbus MS) will be very collectible, in my opinion.

There's a yellow Velocista hanging in the shop up the street. I got it down for a look, and while I have none of the expertise evidenced in this forum by e-ritchie et al it just looks all business and no comfort. The front-to-back thickness of the fork blades is huge (doesn't look like they were intended to flex at all) and I don't think the chainstays or angles are as relaxed as the Merckx. The shop mech described it as something like a really fast tank. The vibe I got was that it's beautiful -- and mean.