Steel road racer frames - thoughts?

[petitelilpettit]

So in the recent times of seeing bikes like the Breadwinner Lolo and the new Cielo Road Racer popping up, I am seriously coveting a steel road racer frame. Having been a previous owner of a Serotta CDA, I can't forget how smooth a steel frame felt, and with the improvements of technology from when I bought the frame to now, I am sure the bike will be everything I am hoping for.

What other options are out there besides the two mentioned? I'm trying to be reasonable on the price (sure, a Speedvagen would be nice...) as well as delivery times.

What would you guys get?

[thwart]

Wow, so many good choices.

That said, Pegoretti.

[jmoore]

Pick any custom steel builder and they can build whatever you want.

Also, Winter Tool Series and excellent choice if you want a stock frame.

[Joachim]

Pick any custom steel builder and they can build whatever you want.

Also, Winter Tool Series and excellent choice if you want a stock frame.

Yes, Tool series is an excellent choice. Its not truly stock, you still get custom geometry and custom tube selection. Just the other "frills" are limited.

[FlashUNC]

Winter Tool Series or Roland Della Santa.

[RedRider]

Define "steel road racer frame". Will you be racing? Do you fancy a lugged frame with steel fork or the latest alloy with carbon? What's your riding style? Will your fit/geometry work for a stock frame?
There are lots of great choices, some contribute to this forum, and your budget will also be a big factor.

[oldpotatoe]

Wow, so many good choices.

That said, Pegoretti.

Also Waterford, like R-33, or even R-14, Gunnar Roadie....

All are eminently race-able.

[bobswire]

Define "steel road racer frame". Will you be racing? Do you fancy a lugged frame with steel fork or the latest alloy with carbon? What's your riding style? Will your fit/geometry work for a stock frame?
There are lots of great choices, some contribute to this forum, and your budget will also be a big factor.

For racing,"cheap'er". Curtlo,Rodriguez or Gunnar. All well made light steel frames. Best bang for the buck.

http://www.rodbikes.com/images/gallery/gallery.php?tag=competition

http://www.curtlo.com/frame_pages/custom_road_S3.html

http://gunnarbikes.com/site/bikes/roadie/

[Lewis Moon]

Stoemper, Garro, Geekhouse....

The world is out there. Steel is one of the most maleable, easily shaped and fabricated materials. There are a HUGE number of quality builders out there. Hang out here (http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f15/friday-picfest-no-262-a-36607.html)..pick one...or more.

[j_roe]

rock lobster = affordability
Cielo= pure awesomeness and beauty

[christian]

Colnago C59.

Not being funny, and I love my Pegoretti, but for racing, it doesn't do anything my Colnago doesn't do, and it weighs 3 lbs more.

[bobswire]

Colnago C59.

Not being funny, and I love my Pegoretti, but for racing, it doesn't do anything my Colnago doesn't do, and it weighs 3 lbs more.

OP Quote: Steel road racer frames. Is the C59 steel?:rolleyes:

[Ken Robb]

Also Waterford, like R-33, or even R-14, Gunnar Roadie....

All are eminently race-able.

I was going to suggest these myself.

[oldpotatoe]

Colnago C59.

Not being funny, and I love my Pegoretti, but for racing, it doesn't do anything my Colnago doesn't do, and it weighs 3 lbs more.

Wow a steel frame 3 pounds(1358 grams) heavier than a carbon one....

I know that's not what you meant but it's really easy to make a steel framed bike at the UCI minimum, I had one on the floor at Vecchio's, Waterford R-33, ENVE fork, SuperRecord mechanical.....easy. Sold one to a gent who said it was lighter than his Scott.

[Lewis Moon]

Wow a steel frame 3 pounds(1358 grams) heavier than a carbon one....

I know that's not what you meant but it's really easy to make a steel framed bike at the UCI minimum, I had one on the floor at Vecchio's, Waterford R-33, ENVE fork, SuperRecord mechanical.....easy. Sold one to a gent who said it was lighter than his Scott.

My S3 Anthrax (Fastrax) weighs in at ~ 17 lbs with race wheels and a lighter crank (I ride 190s, so they're hard to find light).

Besides, any complaint about how heavy a bike is has to be accompanied by a picture of the Poster with his or her shirt off. It's the rule.

[Idris Icabod]

I bought a Mercian (Reynolds 853) last year that has the same geometry as my Moots, I also have a C59 (just to tie in the post a few above). I looked at all the US builders (I really wanted an IF but they would only work through local dealer and I didn't like him). Price wise the Mercian was way cheaper than the US equivalent, wait time was 5 months, exactly as promised upon paying my deposit and they were very easy to work with. But a steel bike can easily be every bit as nice as a carbon uber-frame, I probably ride the Mercian more than the Colnago.

I've posted pictures here before somewhere if interested.

[christian]

OP Quote: Steel road racer frames. Is the C59 steel?:rolleyes:Point being, for a bicycle used for racing, I think there is little reason to choose steel at this point. Well-designed plastic bikes (e.g. Look 585, Colnago C50, Extreme Power, C59) ride really well and are very lightweight compared to steel. Not saying that weight is the end-all and be all, but it doesn't hurt either. My point is, I don't see a penalty to racing plastic.

Wow a steel frame 3 pounds(1358 grams) heavier than a carbon one....There's a pound in the frame and a pound in the fork. The rest of it is parts - 2008 Record vs. 2006 Centaur, Regal vs. Regale, etc. I love steel bikes, I'll always have one or more steel bikes, but for crits and road races, I'm not sure why I'd choose steel now. The plastic bike rides fine, and when the world is going backwards-binocular at 186bpm, I'm not thinking about my bike's composition.

BTW, if the OP is actually looking for a road bike with short-reach brakes, 53-39 cranks, etc. but not specifically for racing, there are a lot of great choices. My top three would be Pegoretti, Zanconato, Hampsten based on what I've personally owned and ridden.

[ceolwulf]

Marinoni Piuma would be another one to consider. Custom geometry $150 more than stock.

You can also get them factory built with Campy, if that's of interest.

http://marinoni.qc.ca/html/Piuma.html

[sashae]

I'll put a mention out for Seth Rosko (http://www.rosko.cc) and Rick Jones (http://rickjonesbicycles.com) here in NYC, both of whom are producing eminently raceable steel frames (both are doing race sponsorships and I've heard nothing but positives from those owning the frames from NY locals.)

[christian]

I've raced CX against folks on Roskos. They look great.

[sashae]

Indeed.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/bb603ebf5d36ec4cbf7b2a8ef185dfe1/tumblr_mtgfe3C7YM1qaopbco2_1280.jpg

[gearguywb]

Strong

[Ralph]

I mostly ride a Jonathan Greene custom steel frame (one of the up and coming builders), tig welded with Enve fork. Can be about as light as you want, depending on parts and wheels. Rides great.

[DonH]

I am fascinated by the Ritchey - never rode one though. Maybe it would suit your needs?

[John H.]

Given your location, I would look up a builder in your vicinity- Russ Denny, Lighthouse (Santa Ynez but really nice and affordable)- I know there is someone in Santa Barbara area as well (Stinner?).
I think frames like a Cielo are nice but expensive for what you get.
You can get something totally custom for the same or less.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

If you're really going to do a bunch of races on it, I would reconsider dropping a ton of money on it. I agree with Christian that plastic (or aluminum) is the way to go for a disposable racing bike.

If you're set on steel for a race bike, Soulcraft in Petaluma makes a nice steel frameset that is very reasonably priced. I'd do that if I was choosing a steel bike to race.

[Black Dog]

Colnago C59.

Not being funny, and I love my Pegoretti, but for racing, it doesn't do anything my Colnago doesn't do, and it weighs 3 lbs more.

The Steel Frame weighs 3 pounds more than the Carbon frame?

[flydhest]

the Baum from another recent thread

[scho74]

Stoemper! Love mine. Words cannot express.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3807/11921331623_504a383a77_b.jpg

[Lewis Moon]

The Steel Frame weighs 3 pounds more than the Carbon frame?

Like I said, you need to post a pic of your rippling abs and 3% body fat before you complain about how much your bike weighs.

Not you so much...just in general. Really. Keep your shirt on....

[christian]

nvm

[keppler]

Another good builder is Primus Mootry, he'll build steel or aluminum and has excellent prices.

[beeatnik]

Race steel if you only have one bike.

[sante pollastri]

A Zullo inqubo or a new Colnago master with carbon fork.

[adamhell]

Given your location, I would look up a builder in your vicinity- Russ Denny, Lighthouse (Santa Ynez but really nice and affordable)- I know there is someone in Santa Barbara area as well (Stinner?).
I think frames like a Cielo are nice but expensive for what you get.
You can get something totally custom for the same or less.

+1 for lighthouse. i have a lighthouse road bike with nice parts on it and it is way better than the carbon bmc i had (and broke) before it.

i am also having a custom stinner cx bike built for me. he is a good guy and i have ridden a couple of his other bikes that my friends own, super awesome new builder.

here is one of my lighthouse:
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h184/adamleibow/810C172C-DDC7-47C6-9F05-0ACA86118E4F_zpshaezlnep.jpg

[spacemen3]

The Breezer Venturi (http://www.breezerbikes.com/bikes/details/venturi) certainly doesn't suck for the money.

[shinomaster]

Get one of these. Also, what new "improvements in technology " are you referring to? Are new steel frames (not the forks) really any better than 90's frames?

[oldpotatoe]

Get one of these. Also, what new "improvements in technology " are you referring to? Are new steel frames (not the forks) really any better than 90's frames?

Well, the steel tubing manufacturers haven't been sitting on their hands during the Ti, then ALU, now carbon, 'revolutions'. All have 'air hardened', oversize, thin wall, tubing. Still great steel rides but 'lighter' since that's the mantra...since you can only 'measure' 2 things, weight and price.

[beeatnik]

Get one of these. Also, what new "improvements in technology " are you referring to? Are new steel frames (not the forks) really any better than 90's frames?

The lighter tubesets can flex more. The Master Piu is "stiffer" and weighs 4 pounds more than the Strong (superlight True Temper S3).

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2893/13000469213_57246b20a4_o.jpg

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2872/12917511665_0bc4a7b90a_c.jpg

[shinomaster]

Well, the steel tubing manufacturers haven't been sitting on their hands during the Ti, then ALU, now carbon, 'revolutions'. All have 'air hardened', oversize, thin wall, tubing. Still great steel rides but 'lighter' since that's the mantra...since you can only 'measure' 2 things, weight and price.

I guess I knew that.. but I didn't think there was much discernible difference between a top shelf steel tubeset from the late 90's - 2000's, and a newer one (from a riding perspective not as a frame builder). I thought the design was the more important part. I have a 1999 Atlanta and a newer frame made with Pegorichi tubing and what feels different is the geo. I'm just a hack, amateur though :)

[shinomaster]

The lighter tubesets can flex more. The Master Piu is "stiffer" and weighs 4 pounds more than the Strong (superlight True Temper S3).

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2893/13000469213_57246b20a4_o.jpg

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2872/12917511665_0bc4a7b90a_c.jpg

The frame weighs 4 pounds more??!

[christian]

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2872/12917511665_0bc4a7b90a_c.jpg

Ok, maybe changing my mind! :)

[sante pollastri]

Precisa fork weight more than 600 gr.

[beeatnik]

The frame weighs 4 pounds more??!

Complete Master is 4 pounds heavier. The group and the wheels cancel out (1500g tubulars v. 1400g clinchers and about a 100g difference in groupset weights).

I wouldn't race steel on any course with an uphill finish or sprint.

[phcollard]

The lighter tubesets can flex more. The Master Piu is "stiffer" and weighs 4 pounds more than the Strong (superlight True Temper S3).

I am not sure how much weight I would have saved going S3 but my Alliance road made of Life weights 1522g which - I think - is respectable for a steel frame. The unicrown fork weights 608g.

That said... The new Cielo is rad.

And so is the Strong above.

Edit : and the Zanc as well... Oh my... What a bike!

[rwsaunders]

I don't race but I had a Strong steel frame (Columbus Foco) that made me feel like a racer. It was fairly light, quick, nimble, smooth and for some reason beyond my knowledge, the sloping top tube made for a good climbing bike. It was given to me as a gift but the overall dimensions were too small for me. There's an unnamed Paceliner in NYC that's racing on it now.

[beeatnik]

The new Cielo is rad.

This

[Fixed]

this

+1

[shinomaster]

Complete Master is 4 pounds heavier. The group and the wheels cancel out (1500g tubulars v. 1400g clinchers and about a 100g difference in groupset weights).

I wouldn't race steel on any course with an uphill finish or sprint.

Well, maybe if you put a Super record group and new wheels on your Colnago it would be a bit faster and lighter?

[Lewis Moon]

OK, I'll just come out and say it: Steel bikes are dead sexy.

For a carbon bike; even with all the swoops and curves, it still came out of a mold like the plastic dinosaurs my dad bought me at the Sinclair station.

A good steel (or Ti, or Al) bike was made by a builder.
Please, visit Velocipede Salon's "Friday Night Lights" (http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f15/) section and tell me you don't get a pup tent.

[torquer]

Race steel if you only have one bike.
Huh?
I wasn't going to get into this p*****g match, because it's mainly folks opinions, which we're all entitled to, however ill-informed the basis. If the OP wants a steel frame, fine. If he wants to race on it, fine. But, if racing is also about crashing (true, in my experience), to state that a steel race bike is somehow going to guarantee you can race again, no matter how bad the crash, is hogwash.
Maybe steel will be repairable, but so is CF. (Dunno about AL.) But you ain't getting the bike back in time for next week's industrial park criterium.
Maybe, if you only have one bike, you just shouldn't race.

[soulspinner]

Strong

Cant say enough good about Carl.

[beeatnik]

Huh?
I wasn't going to get into this p*****g match, because it's mainly folks opinions, which we're all entitled to, however ill-informed the basis. If the OP wants a steel frame, fine. If he wants to race on it, fine. But, if racing is also about crashing (true, in my experience), to state that a steel race bike is somehow going to guarantee you can race again, no matter how bad the crash, is hogwash.
Maybe steel will be repairable, but so is CF. (Dunno about AL.) But you ain't getting the bike back in time for next week's industrial park criterium.
Maybe, if you only have one bike, you just shouldn't race.

You misunderstood me. What I meant is that I don't consider steel a first choice for a dedicated race bike unless you're 19 and have a $500 budget. In other words, if you can only have 1 bike due to budgetary constraints, a used steel bike is a better choice than an entry level carbon one.

[torquer]

Point well taken, Beeatnik.
But if racing on a budget is the primary consideration, I see a lot more CADDs out there (used ones selling for Starbucks money) than steel frames.
Maybe even cheap enough to keep one on hand as a spare.

[shinomaster]

I thought this thread was about new steel frames. :confused:

[4Rings6Stars]

How is it possible that modern steel race bikes are 4lbs heavier than a carbon bike with the same build? I have steel frames that weigh around 4lbs :confused:

I think people are commenting about 20 year old steel frames with steel forks and I just don't see how that is relevant to the OP's (who seems to have disappeared) post.

[Neil]

My new steel frame (Columbus Spirit&MAX, Reynolds 853 and Paragon machine works head tube and BB) is 1.8kg in a 58, it's replacing my System Six frame which is just about bang on 450g lighter.

The System Six was (at it's lightest) around 6.4kg, then I replaced the parts that broke with stronger ones, the deep wheels with some 404 FC's that actually had some aero credentials and the weight went up to ~6.75.

Moving the finishing kit across I think I'll end up with a bike around the 7.2kg mark, which is a long way from being UCI illegal but should still scoot along, even with me on it.

[beeatnik]

How is it possible that modern steel race bikes are 4lbs heavier than a carbon bike with the same build? I have steel frames that weigh around 4lbs :confused:

I think people are commenting about 20 year old steel frames with steel forks and I just don't see how that is relevant to the OP's (who seems to have disappeared) post.

Christian was alluding to the fact that if you want the power transfer of a modern race bike (CF or Al) but you choose steel, then you'll probably need to go with a heavier tubeset (especially if you're not a small dude). So, you end up with a nice race bike that weighs more than most racers would prefer.

[Ralph]

It would be real easy to make my new Jonathan Greene steel bike (56 CM top tube) with Enve fork 16 lbs. Bunch others shown above the same. And sure.... some CF, CAADS, TI's, etc, bikes are lighter than that. But 16 lbs ain't exactly heavy. Don't know what all this steel is 3-4 extra lb stuff is all about....in current steel world.

[Scooper]

This Viner with XCr OS tubing is plenty stiff and weighs 15 pounds.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Frame%20Materials/2012VinerAeternum.jpg

This Waterford R-33 with S3 tubing weighs 16.4 pounds.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Waterford%20953%20Frame/Waterford953R3316_4lbs.jpg

Personally, I don't see steel frames as much of a liability for serious racing.

[MadRocketSci]

Christian was alluding to the fact that if you want the power transfer of a modern race bike (CF or Al) but you choose steel, then you'll probably need to go with a heavier tubeset (especially if you're not a small dude). So, you end up with a nice race bike that weighs more than most racers would prefer.

heavier, but much less than before. I'd guess you could get a modern frame set down to the low 3 lbs range, so a mid-range CF frame is about 2 lbs, for a difference of a little over one pound? The sacrifice would come in durability...the fat steel tube would have to be drawn pretty thin, hence the comments here and there about steel frames denting if you look at them hard...

[Scooper]

heavier, but much less than before. I'd guess you could get a modern frame set down to the low 3 lbs range, so a mid-range CF frame is about 2 lbs, for a difference of a little over one pound? The sacrifice would come in durability...the fat steel tube would have to be drawn pretty thin, hence the comments here and there about steel frames denting if you look at them hard...

My 2007 953 frame has very thin walls (0.3mm for the top tube). The raw material for 953 is Carpenter Tech Custom 455, which is used for armor plating and carrier based airplane landing gear. Any concerns I had seven years ago about it being vulnerable to denting were dismissed years ago. The bike has not been babied and after close to 25k miles there's been no hint of a dent anywhere.

[T.J.]

Christian was alluding to the fact that if you want the power transfer of a modern race bike (CF or Al) but you choose steel, then you'll probably need to go with a heavier tubeset (especially if you're not a small dude). So, you end up with a nice race bike that weighs more than most racers would prefer.

Beeatnik, nope the SV was not flexy in the least and neither is the firefly. Raced the FireFly this past weekend , which came down to a sprint finish. Ended up 6th which had nothing to do with the bike and everything to do with my legs, timing and positioning. I was the only cat2 on steel and I'm ok with that :cool:

[beeatnik]

Awesome, sanks, TJ.

Without going too Jan Heine on this, in my experience, S3 feels pretty stiff but my Chorus FD would disagree with me. The tolerances on my Strong are alien precise and the FD is perfectly adjusted. And yet, the sucker ghost shifts on power climbs when I'm barely at 600 or 700 watts. Gotta be frame flex, right?

[christian]

Christian was alluding to the fact that if you want the power transfer of a modern race bike (CF or Al) but you choose steel, then you'll probably need to go with a heavier tubeset (especially if you're not a small dude). So, you end up with a nice race bike that weighs more than most racers would prefer.

No, I wasn't saying that or anything half that clever. I was saying that I pick a race bike (inasmuch as riding around in the back of crits is "racing") based on handling, ride, weight, and intangibles (e.g. sweet-ass paint job). For me, material doesn't enter into it much. But before my Colnago, every road bike I've had was steel, and the two bikes I've raced last year were aluminum and carbon fiber.

If I crashed my Colnago on Sunday (touch wood), I don't think I'd replace it with a steel frame. Other than weighing 400-600g more, I don't see what a steel frame does that a carbon fiber frame doesn't for riding around an office park.

Fender bike, touring bike, etc, all different, but race bike? No, I don't see any benefit to steel.

[oldpotatoe]

Awesome, sanks, TJ.

Without going too Jan Heine on this, in my experience, S3 feels pretty stiff but my Chorus FD would disagree with me. The tolerances on my Strong are alien precise and the FD is perfectly adjusted. And yet, the sucker ghost shifts on power climbs when I'm barely at 600 or 700 watts. Gotta be frame flex, right?

11s, doubt it. I would say the outer limit screw is pushed to hard against stop. 11s front der, 3 clicks, up to big ring, then limit screw just gently touching the stop.

Sold a bunch of Waterford S3 frames, most with 11s, none shifting the front on their own but only experience with Waterford.

But with big, ovalized downtube, ovalizing counter to crank movement(left-right)

[beeatnik]

11s, doubt it. I would say the outer limit screw is pushed to hard against stop. 11s front der, 3 clicks, up to big ring, then limit screw just gently touching the stop.

Sold a bunch of Waterford S3 frames, most with 11s, none shifting the front on their own but only experience with Waterford.

Sanks, OldP. I'll have my wrench check that out.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Look, the guy wants to race this bike. If he's cool with (a) he's bound to crash sooner or later and (b) he can easily replace it, then more power to him going with a custom steel bike. IMO, there are better, less expensive alternatives for that application. I'd go another way with my money for choice of material for a war horse (that Saeco CAAD 3 for $250 in the classifieds looks pretty sweet), but to each his own.

For JRA or recreational riding, absolutely would go with steel again. I still miss the ride of my Steelman XCr. No way I would have raced it, though.

[T.J.]

I guess I am in the minority but I flog this bike. Two races so far this year and two more this weekend. As a side note there seems to be more high zoot , high dollar bikes is the cat4 and cat5's than my race.

[T.J.]

Why the heck is that upside down?

[phcollard]

Why the heck is that upside down?

He's from Oz.

[Peter P.]

The OP doesn't say whether he's going to actually race the bike, just that he wants a steel "race" bike. He also doesn't specify whether he wants all-steel or if he prefers a carbon fork.

What it sounds like he wants is the "feel" of steel in a road racing geometry.

If he wants to race it, then the frame should be affordable. My mantra is, "you have to be able to crash it on Sunday and replace it on Monday, or it's too expensive".

If that's what he's looking for, then I can only come up with a Gunnar or lower tier Waterford. Ebay and Craigslist finds are always out there if you're patient. Oh yeah; I gotta add my approval to DonH's suggestion of the Ritchey Road Logic 2.0. If I were in the market for a production steel race frame, this would be my choice.

If you remove the competitive potential to wreck a frame, then the sky's the limit.

And what's all this brawling over stiffness? Stiffness is way over rated; I've never heard someone complain that lack of stiffness is what left them off the podium-there are just too many other factors affecting a race or tough group ride to make it an issue. Today's bikes, regardless of material and design, are stiff enough.

Same thing with weight; the differences between a carbon framed, tubular shod bike vs. a steel framed clincher tired bike of even relatively similar quality aren't the difference between being dropped and being KOM or sprint king. For comparison, my Soulcraft Royale, with Shimano Ultegra 9 speed and aluminum clinchers weighs a "portly" 20.4lbs. The shame!

The beauty of steel race frames is their affordability while retaining the customizable features they're know for. That steel "feel" the OP seeks could be the tube diameters or the geometry, likely both. In many cases you can get that feeling for under $2500.

I get the impression the OP was looking for that intersection of price/ performance/ quick delivery. Otherwise we could talk all day about custom steel frames in general.

[Scooper]

He's from Oz.

:D

Mo' betta...

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/firefly_zps5c9adb86.jpg

[beeatnik]

And what's all this brawling over stiffness? Stiffness is way over rated; I've never heard someone complain that lack of stiffness is what left them off the podium-there are just too many other factors affecting a race or tough group ride to make it an issue. Today's bikes, regardless of material and design, are stiff enough.

Same thing with weight; the differences between a carbon framed, tubular shod bike vs. a steel framed clincher tired bike of even relatively similar quality aren't the difference between being dropped and being KOM or sprint king. For comparison, my Soulcraft Royale, with Shimano Ultegra 9 speed and aluminum clinchers weighs a "portly" 20.4lbs. The shame!


Efficient power transfer may be a better term than stiffness...


The OP is in Southern California. No one races or trains on steel out here. From personal experience, I can tell you that in pelotons of 100 plus riders, I'm generally the only dude on steel (when I ride the Strong, Nago or Cielo). On false flat sprints, I feel faster on my Evo or CAAD10. It may be psychological (I'd have to check my files to know for sure). Bottom line, I think all things being equal, Cav on a Venge would beat Cav on an SV by 3 bike lengths. One can easily extrapolate (linearly) from there.

We're talking about racing here. As Christian mentioned, there's an advantage to CF and it has been quantified. Whether or not it's a "marginal gain," is not the point. Guys, even at the amateur level win sprints by hundredths of a second.

Oh yeah, ride what you like.

[T.J.]

Bottom line, I think all things being equal, Cav on a Venge would beat Cav on an SV by 3 bike lengths. One can easily extrapolate (linearly) from there..


That's a good way to put it. Like you said earlier , ride what you like. My steel bike isn't keeping me from upgrading to a cat1 , it's a few points which I may or may not get regardless of my bike choice

[don'TreadOnMe]

Easy.
Living where you do, Della Santa or Landshark or Rock Lobster.
Call 'em, go see them, check each other out, give them a deposit.

Dollars to donuts, your dream comes true. Best bike you'll ever have, built FOR YOU by a legend.

[John H.]

I rode a steel bike at Redlands in 2004- I think I was the only guy on a steel bike even that far back.
And it was a rad steel bike- Steve Rex made from S3 with a Reynolds UL fork.
I tangled with someone in a feedzone a couple weeks later and his bars tore out one of my cage braze-ons.
I got it repaired but switched to an aluminum Specialized in the interim- that was the end of me and steel bikes for racing.

[Tony]

Some weights on many bikes including steel, carbon, aluminum.....

https://plus.google.com/photos/107709068384636814318/albums/5931392224435650145

[rando]

I can tell you what size of team clothing OP wears but did he mention his frame size? That would be one of the first places I started in any consideration of merit/demerit for the qualities he wants built into the bike. Living in CA there is going to be some climbing and descending involved which need to be considered.

The more senior OP appeared to knock the deadwood down as soon as it got pointed out. A modern Waterford isn't for everyone and if a steel bike is about anything it is metal working. They are on the shortlist of shops doing steel that will be raced, repaired, repainted, and still around when the kids are big enough. That is the cycle and you need to pay attention to the middle two there as that is about the only thing changed from back in the day. Expect a dent in your wallet and to use your B bike for awhile.

Personally spent years looking at a good steel frame for racing and to this day my biggest concern is being out of place with the current style. Take a look at how races were done on solely steel versus the carbon only ranks today and it should be pretty apparent. Being the only guy in the race on aluminum wheels and having 3 guys run into you from behind when you brake is a good modern example. You already have to be pretty witty and aware of everything around so how is adding another level going to affect that?

Best of luck making the best decision.

[AgilisMerlin]

one of these just arrived,

very nice, light tubing

tremendous for the price

http://www.somafab.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/soma_smoothie_blk2014_2_web1000.jpg

http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/tange/Tange-road-tubing-I.jpg

[StephenCL]

Point being, for a bicycle used for racing, I think there is little reason to choose steel at this point. Well-designed plastic bikes (e.g. Look 585, Colnago C50, Extreme Power, C59) ride really well and are very lightweight compared to steel. Not saying that weight is the end-all and be all, but it doesn't hurt either. My point is, I don't see a penalty to racing plastic.

My top three would be Pegoretti, Zanconato, Hampsten based on what I've personally owned and ridden.

I used to think that, but I do this crazy 206 mike road race every year with over 10k feet of climbing and about 6k decending, and I can tell you that I have done it on carbon a couple times and this last year I did it on my tigged Zanconato, with enve fork....here are my thoughts:

1) my carbon bikes were the best production you can get.."pinarello paris in 2007" and pinarello dogma carbon in 2012" both had 46mm tubular carbon wheels...set ups were nearly identical, the Paris had a taller head tube, but I used a spacer on the dogma to give me identical bar height.

2) the zanconato was tigged max and life tubing, head tube was same height as Paris, so almost identical touch points on the bike, 50mm lightweight tubulars.

3) my Paris was heavier than my steel max bike, the dogma was about 1/2 pound lighter. Oh yeah, the zanconato was under 16 lbs.

4) the biggest difference was comfort over the distance, with the steel bike head and shoulders above the carbons...fatigue in neck and shoulder and butt were all significantly less.

5) the biggest difference though was in the descending...without question, the steel bike descended so smoothly...there is no carbon chatter over the expansion joints and at 50mph, I can tell you there is a huge difference.

I think there must be something with the harmonics and dampening that occur that are significantly altered at those speeds, in those conditions....

But the best part is that my teammate finished third overall out of over a 1000 licensed racers cats 1-5..... 95% of them on carbon bikes....it was great to see this guy on a steel zanconato take third overall...

That's all I have to say about racing on steel bikes

[T.J.]

I used to think that, but I do this crazy 206 mike road race every year with over 10k feet of climbing and about 6k decending, and I can tell you that I have done it on carbon a couple times and this last year I did it on my tigged Zanconato, with enve fork....here are my thoughts:

1) my carbon bikes were the best production you can get.."pinarello paris in 2007" and pinarello dogma carbon in 2012" both had 46mm tubular carbon wheels...set ups were nearly identical, the Paris had a taller head tube, but I used a spacer on the dogma to give me identical bar height.

2) the zanconato was tigged max and life tubing, head tube was same height as Paris, so almost identical touch points on the bike, 50mm lightweight tubulars.

3) my Paris was heavier than my steel max bike, the dogma was about 1/2 pound lighter. Oh yeah, the zanconato was under 16 lbs.

4) the biggest difference was comfort over the distance, with the steel bike head and shoulders above the carbons...fatigue in neck and shoulder and butt were all significantly less.

5) the biggest difference though was in the descending...without question, the steel bike descended so smoothly...there is no carbon chatter over the expansion joints and at 50mph, I can tell you there is a huge difference.

I think there must be something with the harmonics and dampening that occur that are significantly altered at those speeds, in those conditions....

But the best part is that my teammate finished third overall out of over a 1000 licensed racers cats 1-5..... 95% of them on carbon bikes....it was great to see this guy on a steel zanconato take third overall...

That's all I have to say about racing on steel bikes


[x] LIKE

[pbarry]

one of these just arrived,

very nice, light tubing

tremendous for the price

http://www.somafab.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/soma_smoothie_blk2014_2_web1000.jpg

http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/tange/Tange-road-tubing-I.jpg

Really??!! How many pages of images in your "Steel Part" thread and you go for this? I love dichotomy.

[christian]

I have done it on carbon a couple times and this last year I did it on my tigged Zanconato, with enve fork....here are my thoughts:De gustibus non disputandum est. I have a Zanc cx bike (filleted with an AlphaQ) and a Colnago Extreme Power. While I might grab the Zanc first if the house were burning down, I don't think there is an appreciable difference in ride quality between it and my Colnago for me. At least not for rides of 4-5 hours.

[Peter P.]

That's a good way to put it. Like you said earlier , ride what you like. My steel bike isn't keeping me from upgrading to a cat1 , it's a few points which I may or may not get regardless of my bike choice

How can this be? According to beeatnik, you're losing 3 bike lengths in the sprint!

[T.J.]

How can this be? According to beeatnik, you're losing 3 bike lengths in the sprint!

And he is prob right. Cav is a freak as is all those guys. I am only a cat2, my bike ain't holding me back

[rando]

And he is prob right. Cav is a freak as is all those guys. I am only a cat2, my bike ain't holding me back

If anything the opposite is true. Cav has skills and adaptation abilities unfounded in the rest of the world. He would have been who he is 100 years ago and even if handicapped with a bike of that era he would utilize it to nearly the same level. That is to say the margin of loss would be tiny compared to the guy below.

The anonymous amateur stands to gain considerably from upgraded equipment to make up for shortcomings. They are what is holding them back on a top level bike that might even make up a few moves independent of input.

[AgilisMerlin]

Really??!! How many pages of images in your "Steel Part" thread and you go for this? I love dichotomy.

my daughter and i repainted the raleigh

when i put some time into them, steel, it is worth the wait

here is a link

http://www.flickr.com/photos/74489400@N04/

bike forums caught up with the forum for prestige specs so here they are again

[Duende]

Have to chime in here and say I'm very impressed with my steel S3 frame. I went with steel solely because of past experiences... having raced with Columbus SL and SLX as a junior in the 80's. I'm coming back to the sport after many years away. Rode my bike only for commuting the last 20 odd years.

Have to say though that my rather limited experiences with Carbon were all actually very positive too. i could definitely see myself buying a Carbon bike in the future.

However, when it came time to buy a bike this time 'round... I decided on steel. This was because the ability to get custom sizing was much more within my reach financially. Also, admittedly I was turned off by the across the board Chinese manufacturing. Nothing against China, I just didn't want to invest in mass manufactured product.

Plus, I'm not the lightest guy. Been training MA the last two decades, so my build isn't exactly bicycle friendly anymore. So valid or not, I did have concerns about cracking a carbon frame.

Anyways, the Waterford brand stuck out to me personally. My 80's SLX Paramount had served me well for many many years. So staying loyal to the company just felt right.

I read a few posts online about weight limitations and S3. But i started riding again at just over 220 lbs. I've been beating the hell out of this bike. Jumping curbs, riding off road when necessary.... So far it's held up more than great. In fact I've had to switch out light weight components for more robust ones because of their performance and flex... but not the frame. It's been solid.

That's my .02

S3 is killer. No doubt the Columbus and Reynolds offerings are great too.

[pdmtong]

Listen to StephenCL

FWIW a 56cm SV with a mast is ~1600g

[fogrider]

I have a 16 pound scandium rock lobster and its a great ride! I also have a serotta legend ti which I love and ride often. about 16 months ago, I found a ron cooper from the original owner. he built it up as a fixie and rattle canned the frame black and he didn't have the original fork...he had a cheap steel fork that weighed about 2 pounds. the frame weighed about 4.6 pounds. I was not too excited considering the frame weight. but about 11 months later, I found a carbon fork and with some old parts got the bike on the road. from the first turn of the pedals, I was impressed. with downtube shifters and tubulars, the bike weighed in at a reasonable 19 pounds and change. I liked the ride so much that I recently had al wanta repaint it! and rebuilt with some lightweight bits, 17.5 pounds.

[petitelilpettit]

First off, wow! I didn't expect this to have so much response!

Secondly, some clarifications. I used the term "road racer frame" to indicate the frame style. I know that when a lot of people hear "steel frame", they are thinking of a comfort-oriented bike, such as a long-distance ride, or something specific like cross or touring. I am someone who does a few road races a year, but does plenty of fast-paced training rides. Beforehand, when I had my Serotta, it was plenty smooth, but didn't have the "oomph" i was looking for (in hindsight, whether that was the engine or the frame, i will never know). With regards to the "newer technology", I was referring to the new tube construction, as well as other things, such as the 44mm head tube and the PF30 BB.

I guess a custom is the way to go in order to determine what I am EXACTLY looking for (Stinner in Santa Barbara has been on my mind recently), but I wanted to see other people's opinions.

Thanks for all the response, everyone!

[sailorboy]

Zanconato with max front triangle. Tig welded and powdercoated.

next question

[John H.]

Be careful on the pf30 bb-
PF30 might save weight. But it is a recipe for creaking on metal bikes. Stay tried and true and go threaded with a King bb or a bb native to your cranks.
Just because you can do anything under the sun on a custom frame does not mean you should.

First off, wow! I didn't expect this to have so much response!

Secondly, some clarifications. I used the term "road racer frame" to indicate the frame style. I know that when a lot of people hear "steel frame", they are thinking of a comfort-oriented bike, such as a long-distance ride, or something specific like cross or touring. I am someone who does a few road races a year, but does plenty of fast-paced training rides. Beforehand, when I had my Serotta, it was plenty smooth, but didn't have the "oomph" i was looking for (in hindsight, whether that was the engine or the frame, i will never know). With regards to the "newer technology", I was referring to the new tube construction, as well as other things, such as the 44mm head tube and the PF30 BB.

I guess a custom is the way to go in order to determine what I am EXACTLY looking for (Stinner in Santa Barbara has been on my mind recently), but I wanted to see other people's opinions.

Thanks for all the response, everyone!

[FlashUNC]

Down with pressfit!

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3754/10615405564_ef259ac624_c.jpg

[bobswire]

I have a 16 pound scandium rock lobster and its a great ride! I also have a serotta legend ti which I love and ride often. about 16 months ago, I found a ron cooper from the original owner. he built it up as a fixie and rattle canned the frame black and he didn't have the original fork...he had a cheap steel fork that weighed about 2 pounds. the frame weighed about 4.6 pounds. I was not too excited considering the frame weight. but about 11 months later, I found a carbon fork and with some old parts got the bike on the road. from the first turn of the pedals, I was impressed. with downtube shifters and tubulars, the bike weighed in at a reasonable 19 pounds and change. I like the ride so much that I recently had al wanta repaint it! and rebuilt with some lightweight bits, 17.5 pounds.

You should post this with a thread of its own and some better (larger detailed) photos.

EDIT: Never mind, I found your original thread, sweet,like your choice of colors. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=145177

[petitelilpettit]

Oh, geez, I think I just fell in love...

[Fixed]

steel bike and fork like an extra water bottle
not that big a deal imho
cheers

[eBAUMANN]

Oh, geez, I think I just fell in love...

went for a ride with this last weekend…its nicer in person ;)

[sloar]

how about a vintage steel race frame with modern 10speed components? i think it would be a cheaper build with a very nice fast bike in the end.



http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m615/sloar1070/DSC01788_zps9e8b4a47.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/sloar1070/media/DSC01788_zps9e8b4a47.jpg.html)

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m615/sloar1070/ciocc105_zps0c33ae2c.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/sloar1070/media/ciocc105_zps0c33ae2c.jpg.html)


http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m615/sloar1070/ciocc111_zps07142b24.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/sloar1070/media/ciocc111_zps07142b24.jpg.html)

[Neil]

Be careful on the pf30 bb-
PF30 might save weight. But it is a recipe for creaking on metal bikes. Stay tried and true and go threaded with a King bb or a bb native to your cranks.
Just because you can do anything under the sun on a custom frame does not mean you should.

About that...

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7327/13270307025_e7b3f321ed_b.jpg

[pdmtong]

The bad-a$$ alliance is now local to me and I rode it around the block.

Yup...ferrous-RSL.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=145478&highlight=alliance

[John H.]

Let me know how it works out after some miles- they all look good in the jig.

About that...

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7327/13270307025_e7b3f321ed_b.jpg

[Fixed]

Why the heck is that upside down?

ipad quark

[cmg]

the rear wheel drop outs, what are they? do they get a lot of flex?

[Black Dog]

The Steel Frame weighs 3 pounds more than the Carbon frame?

Like I said, you need to post a pic of your rippling abs and 3% body fat before you complain about how much your bike weighs.

Not you so much...just in general. Really. Keep your shirt on....

Ahh. Before we all get naked here, I was being a bit glib about the claims that steel is super heavy and inferior to plastic bikes. I am very far from being a weight weeny. I ride steel and Ti. Bike plus rider and all that...:)

[Duende]

Oh, geez, I think I just fell in love...

Gaulzetti's just look right to me. Amazing!

[EA120711]

+1 for lighthouse. i have a lighthouse road bike with nice parts on it and it is way better than the carbon bmc i had (and broke) before it.

i am also having a custom stinner cx bike built for me. he is a good guy and i have ridden a couple of his other bikes that my friends own, super awesome new builder.

here is one of my lighthouse:
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h184/adamleibow/810C172C-DDC7-47C6-9F05-0ACA86118E4F_zpshaezlnep.jpg
.

[Neil]

Let me know how it works out after some miles- they all look good in the jig.

I've never used PF30 before, however I've used BB30 extensively- which has never been a problem.

My understanding is that the required tolerances are significantly lower for PF30, which is why I used it here- BB30 post brazing would be in need of re-machining I suspect.

It may, of course, be a total nightmare- to be totally honest I just wanted to use my SiSl cranks.

[fogrider]

You should post this with a thread of its own and some better (larger detailed) photos.

EDIT: Never mind, I found your original thread, sweet,like your choice of colors. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=145177

photos really don't show what the color looks like...I've been meaning to take some decent photos and updating the post...but there's too much riding to do.

[shovelhd]

There's a handful of guys racing Masters out here on steel. The ones I can think of are a couple on the same team on Waterfords, a team on Sachs (I wonder why), and a guy who makes his own frames on his.

That Gaulzetti is sick. I will own one when I retire.

[EA120711]

First off, wow! I didn't expect this to have so much response!

Secondly, some clarifications. I used the term "road racer frame" to indicate the frame style. I know that when a lot of people hear "steel frame", they are thinking of a comfort-oriented bike, such as a long-distance ride, or something specific like cross or touring. I am someone who does a few road races a year, but does plenty of fast-paced training rides. Beforehand, when I had my Serotta, it was plenty smooth, but didn't have the "oomph" i was looking for (in hindsight, whether that was the engine or the frame, i will never know). With regards to the "newer technology", I was referring to the new tube construction, as well as other things, such as the 44mm head tube and the PF30 BB.

I guess a custom is the way to go in order to determine what I am EXACTLY looking for (Stinner in Santa Barbara has been on my mind recently), but I wanted to see other people's opinions.

Thanks for all the response, everyone!

+1 on Stinner . Recently received my frame and it's exactly what I wanted ! Highly recommended !

[Neil]

7.1kg, needs pedals and two brake cables, plus of course paint.

I'd love to see it hit the scales at 7.3 fully dressed, with no weight limited parts.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5176/13547076965_c30e35019a_b.jpg

[mistermo]

My S3 Anthrax (Fastrax) weighs in at ~ 17 lbs with race wheels and a lighter crank (I ride 190s, so they're hard to find light).

Besides, any complaint about how heavy a bike is has to be accompanied by a picture of the Poster with his or her shirt off. It's the rule.

You need to post a pic of this baby. I searched the archives and don't see the pics I was promised when sold to you. :hello:

[chomeo]

I don't race. But, i'm really looking forward to riding this one very soon. :)

[sante pollastri]

7.1kg, needs pedals and two brake cables, plus of course paint.

I'd love to see it hit the scales at 7.3 fully dressed, with no weight limited parts.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5176/13547076965_c30e35019a_b.jpg

no paint.....

[Neil]

Or pedals, or brake cables. It's gone to paint today and when it comes back will gain cables and pedals.

Honestly I have no idea what to expect paint to weigh.

[Scooper]

Or pedals, or brake cables. It's gone to paint today and when it comes back will gain cables and pedals.

Honestly I have no idea what to expect paint to weigh.

If it were polished stainless, you wouldn't have to worry about the weight of the paint. ;)

[Neil]

True, however I'd need to buy a TIG machine, and I can't afford that right now.

[Scooper]

True, however I'd need to buy a TIG machine, and I can't afford that right now.

Naw... Brazed lugs and fillet brazing work fine. :)

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Waterford%20B07014/953_rs-22topheadlugsm_zps79d706ca.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/SOMA%20Smoothie%20SS/soma_smoothie_ss_sttube_cluster700_zps6a029dc6.jpg

[Neil]

Lugs I would do, fillet brazing stainless -not a chance.

The brazing rod costs more than the frame tubes, and the frames tend to crack.

[Scooper]

Lugs I would do, fillet brazing stainless -not a chance.

The brazing rod costs more than the frame tubes, and the frames tend to crack.

Are you sure you're not exaggerating a tad? :)

Depending on the stainless tubeset chosen (Reynolds 953, 931, or 921, Columbus XCr, or KVA MS3) the frame tubes will set you back between about $350 to $600.

Using the popular-for-stainless brazing Fillet Pro rods, it'll take about 3 Troy ounces of rod for a fillet brazed frame. That'll set you back about $100. SSL flux is another $20.

I'd love to see evidence of a properly brazed cracked fillet brazed stainless frame.

[Joachim]

Lugs I would do, fillet brazing stainless -not a chance.

, and the frames tend to crack.

And I know very experienced builders that would totally disagree with you. Maybe if a builder is not experienced enough, sure.

[Neil]

According to the builder, there is around $800 worth of fillet pro in this picture (this is his first try at stainless):

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3763/10522770235_de21589e16_b.jpg

This bike will never turn a wheel- the builder decided he'd rather remake the whole thing (it's a mix of 953 and 931) in MAX rather than let it out the door, due to his concerns about the likelihood of it failing- based on other failed frames that had come through his shop for repair.

I don't know much more than that about it, but it does seem to stand as something of a salutary lesson- if you can TIG weld, do that.

[mistermo]

I've never found a good steel frame that beats the Lemond steel road frames, for pure value.

I have a nice looking green/cream, True Temper Platinum OX, Croix de Fer bike that is among my favorites ever.

[MannyHarris]

Stoemper! Love mine. Words cannot express.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3807/11921331623_504a383a77_b.jpg

I have a question regarding your Stoemper....
I have been really wanting to get one. How do you like it?
Stiffness? Handling? Responsiveness? Weight?
Cant decide between a Stoemper Taylor vs a Moots CR????
Any advice would be appreciated. I already have an older steel bike I ride, not sure I need another Steel? or Ti. Im sure the Stoemper would be a completely different ride than my older collage, although it rides awesome, just feels a bit sluggish at times.
thanks
Manny

[MannyHarris]

This Viner with XCr OS tubing is plenty stiff and weighs 15 pounds.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Frame%20Materials/2012VinerAeternum.jpg

This Waterford R-33 with S3 tubing weighs 16.4 pounds.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Waterford%20953%20Frame/Waterford953R3316_4lbs.jpg

Personally, I don't see steel frames as much of a liability for serious racing.
Your Waterford is BEAUTIFUL!!