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MattTuck
03-26-2014, 10:32 AM
Just got done reading an older Steve Hogg article that talked about cleat position. Curious if any of you have tried it, and if so, did you adjust any other aspects of your position?

Is this still 'a thing'? I need all the help I can get.

Relevant section of article, which was from 2007.
Cleat position

Observation Seven: Cleat position plays a much larger part in the entire picture of rider on bike than is generally realised. Every watt of power you produce is transferred to the bike via your feet on the pedals. This relationship needs to be optimised if the goal is efficient and comfortable performance. The world generally believes that the centre of the first metatarsophalangeal joint (ball of foot) should be over the pedal axle.

As a general recommendation this is rubbish and demonstrably so. Grab a broomstick, cricket bat, baseball bat or other long lever. Hold your lever in both hands with elbows comfortably bent. Stand a friend in front of you at a distance that allows you to place the end of your lever a few inches beyond the side of their shoulder. Exert force and try and move your friend sideways. You won't be very effective.

Now take a small step forward so that about ΒΌ or 1/5 of the lever extends beyond your friends' shoulder. Exert force again and you will move your friend with much greater ease. Most of you will realise the analogy here. For those who don't, the first position is ball of the foot over the pedal axle and the second position is ball of the foot in front of the pedal axle. The key with this is just how far in front. Too much foot over the pedal will give you massive leverage but limit ability to jump hard in a sprint. Not enough foot over the pedal means a lot of effort for limited result in high torque per stroke riding as the calves than have to work hard while attempting to stabilise foot on pedal.

Any cleat position will allow the rider to produce good power. The question is for how long and at what risk of injury?

Germany's Gotz Heine believes that for greatest efficiency, the tarsometatarsal joint (the midfoot) should be over the pedal axle and has any amount of compelling evidence to back this up. For sustained steady effort of high or low intensity, this position, correctly applied will mean greater ability to sustain power over time and / or better ability to recover from severe efforts. TT's, pursuiting, Audax riding, road racing and triathlon are ideal for this kind of cleat positioning.

With this style of midfoot or arch cleat positioning, the largest muscles; glutes, hamstrings and quadriceps are heavily enlisted. All are close to the torso meaning that vascular flow is less interrupted and the potential problems that arise from transferring power through the foot and ankle are largely eliminated. What is also obvious using torque analysis is that midfoot cleat positioning flattens the riders torque curve for a given power output. In essence the rider is pushing for longer per stroke rather than harder.

This is important because a lower torque peak for the same wattage equals lower peak muscular contraction which in turn equals less fatigue and / or quicker recovery. All of which means greater ability to sustain a given load. Whether a rider should decide to experiment with midfoot cleat position will be determined by what kind of riding the rider prioritises. Crits and track events with plentiful changes in speed are best served by forefoot cleat positioning. For steadier paced riding, fast or slow, it is worth investigating midfoot cleat position and making a personal judgement.

Uncle Jam's Army
03-26-2014, 10:39 AM
Slid my cleats back 4 years ago and never looked back. Helps with hot spots, too. Though I am no biomechanics expert, it definitely feels like I have more leverage. Not sure I would take it to the extreme and drill holes to slide the cleat all the way back to mid foot, though.

donevwil
03-26-2014, 10:41 AM
Not really an answer to your inquiry as it's not mid-foot and is for completely different reasons, but a respected local fitter recommended my wife move her cleats rearward (as far as the shoes would allow) to address a pretty severe foot numbness issue. It worked, but wreaked havoc on her toe overlap.

MattTuck
03-26-2014, 10:46 AM
I don't think I'd go all the way midfoot. I'm honestly not even sure how much more room I'd have to move back in the current holes. I am curious about it though.

Yeah, toe overlap. That could be an issue.

DRZRM
03-26-2014, 10:47 AM
I never went so far as mid foot, but I did slide my cleats as far back as the channels would allow back when this was a discussion, and as UJA said above, I've never looked back. If you ride "toe down" you may need to lower your seat a bit, but if you pedal flat (as I do) no height adjustment needed. Nor did I adjust my seat forward. Be careful of new toe overlap.

Ralph
03-26-2014, 10:50 AM
On my Specialized shoes, I ride with cleats all the way back also. But that's not as far back as one might think.

Black Dog
03-26-2014, 10:58 AM
Slid mine back as far as they would go on my Sidis and very happy since. Ultra distance riders have know about this for a long long time.

Tony
03-26-2014, 10:59 AM
I never went so far as mid foot, but I did slide my cleats as far back as the channels would allow back when this was a discussion, and as UJA said above, I've never looked back. If you ride "toe down" you may need to lower your seat a bit, but if you pedal flat (as I do) no height adjustment needed. Nor did I adjust my seat forward. Be careful of new toe overlap.

I did the same just recently, it feels great. I didn't feel a need to adjust saddle height but did move my seat back a little.

Black Dog
03-26-2014, 11:03 AM
I did the same just recently, it feels great. I didn't feel a need to adjust saddle height but did move my seat back a little.

Most folks move their seat forward a to compensate for the foot moving forward on the pedal. I am curious why you moved yours back and what effect it had for you?

MadRocketSci
03-26-2014, 11:07 AM
slid mine back all the way on my shimano shoes and along with custom ski insoles solved my toe numbness issues

Tony
03-26-2014, 11:21 AM
Most folks move their seat forward a to compensate for the foot moving forward on the pedal. I am curious why you moved yours back and what effect it had for you?

After moving my cleats back I followed Ti and Dave's recommendations for my saddle position. I think I've always had my seat too far forward.

jonk
03-26-2014, 11:32 AM
I'm another one who has the cleats all the way back on Sidis.

Black Dog
03-26-2014, 11:33 AM
After moving my cleats back I followed Ti and Dave's recommendations for my saddle position. I think I've always had my seat too far forward.

Ok that makes good sense.

RedRider
03-26-2014, 12:09 PM
Sagan tried the mid sole cleat placement...

MadRocketSci
03-26-2014, 12:24 PM
^ ^ ^ that is awesome, riding switch on bikes...a melding of my favorite summer/winter sports :)

Waldo
03-26-2014, 01:01 PM
I've been riding mid-foot about 8 years and it's great. Toe overlap -- after a while you get used to it and occasionally hitting the wheel becomes a small deal.

binouye
03-26-2014, 02:44 PM
Not mid-foot, but I also moved the cleats to the back of their Sidi slots a couple years ago. Try it! Free and easy to reverse if you don't like it. Yup, some toe overlap with front wheel but that hasn't made me fall over (yet).

cash05458
03-26-2014, 03:06 PM
matt...moved mine as far back as they would a few years ago...has worked great and didn't change anything via saddle...also got into esoles...love them...feet much happier...:)

Ken Robb
03-26-2014, 03:44 PM
buy or borrow some good flat pedals and you can try a wide range of foot positions. If you just go for a ride on your usual bike and route and just see where your feet end up you may have some good info on where to mount your cleats.

oldpotatoe
03-27-2014, 05:38 AM
Slid my cleats back 4 years ago and never looked back. Helps with hot spots, too. Though I am no biomechanics expert, it definitely feels like I have more leverage. Not sure I would take it to the extreme and drill holes to slide the cleat all the way back to mid foot, though.

My cleats have been as far aft as the shoe(Sidi) and pedal/cleats(Speedplay now but previously Campagnolo and Look)...will allow since I started riding....forward like running on your tip toes..doesn't seem 'natural'...

Ralph
03-27-2014, 06:26 AM
I think the "cleats forward" or under forward ball of feet idea came along with old riding shoes with flexible leather soles. Like my first real riding shoes where you nailed the cleat on. Now with rigid soles, can move cleat where you want for best power and most comfort.

moose8
03-27-2014, 07:34 AM
In response to this thread, I moved mine as far back as possible on pearl Izumi mtb shoes. It felt strange on this morning's ride, but I'm definitely going to give it a try it for awhile. I'm using crank brothers pedals.

bluecsi
03-27-2014, 01:02 PM
I also moved my cleats back as far as I could after reading Steve Hogg's article. This was a couple years ago now. I have shimano shoes and speedplay pedals with the adapter plate to slide the cleat back even farther. I did lower my seat a smidgen too. Very happy with this position.

austex
03-28-2014, 11:06 AM
I have re-drilled my shoes to allow additional ~1cm farther aft position, both Sidis and current Specialized, SPD-SL; sole gets too narrow to go much farther with 3-bolt. Started this years ago after feeling knee twinges, then reading Hogg. Works great for me, though, full disclosure, I am not particularly bothered by resultant toe-overlap.

Tom

civdic
03-28-2014, 12:06 PM
I rode a fixed for a couple of years bike couriering. I quickly discovered cranking up hills my foot naturally wanted to move forward especially while standing. My feet seemed to find the most natural and powerful position.

WSBA Jr.
03-28-2014, 03:17 PM
For cleat position, I have had the bike fit learning experience of a junior racer since he was 7 y/o. It would change every 2-3 weeks! For both of us, we would start in the original recommended position, then move cleats back 2mm at a time. Using goniometer, plumb drop, etc., and using reference from John Howard's vids, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1SITBDsnfU we would come up with a viable position, tested on Tacx trainer for spin cadence, power, heart rate, etc. The smallest changes would immediately become visible on the trainer.

For me @ 6'2", I could not maintain 15-18 degree toe down angle with the cleat all the way back. So, a combination of a couple of mm down in saddle, cleat slightly forward gave a great combination of in-saddle acceleration, 120 rpm spin when required, and climbing 13% grade or more. Bottom line has shown us to be a combination of fit factors, for which we would quantify on the trainer...but yes, moving cleats back helped us.