AMERICAN or ITALIAN Craftsmanship?

[tigersnkoi]

AMERICAN or ITALIAN craftsmanship?

Anyone ever heard of an Italian bicycle called a CASATI Carbon Laser? If anyone has information on the quality and ride, please let me know.

I am wondering how the American micro-builder craftsmanship compares with the Italian manufacturers like Colnago, Casati, Ciocc and Pinarello, to name a few. I wish to compare steel frames with steel frames, although the Casati I have been eyeballing has a carbon rear triangle, seat post and forks.
When it comes to Italian, which manufactures design and create the highest quality machines?

[Peter]

There is NO comparison. The small scale American builders beat the Italians hands-down with regard to machining, alignment, finish, chroming, and lug filing, where applicable. Why, even the "lowly" ( I respect the Waterford marquee) Gunnar line shows superior workmanship and finish compared to the eye-talians.

A simple peek into the BB of respective frames shows the lack of care the Italians take in frame assembly. The lack of cleanliness is plainly evident. American builders also take great pride in their paint finishes, and it shows whether it be powder coating or wet paint.

Where the Italians have it over the U.S. is in the STYLE department. I think Colnago, Bianchi, and DeRosa, to name a few, have a flair for graphics and color schemes which is always stylish.

And the Italian frames are way over-priced. Shop around for some of the smaller domestic American builders and you will find VERY attractive pricing and still get the care of assembly and attention to detail that even the major names in the industry provide.

If you're interested in who in ITALY is making the highest quality machines right now, I'd say Pegoretti has earned a reputation and here again, note his funky, if not whimsical finishes-a true flair for style and it shows he has a sense of humor. I also respect Chairman Bill and his Torelli/Mondonico line. Casati, by the way, did get a very positive write up in VeloNews in the past year or two. Look it up in the back issues.

And geometry is geometry; it's not like the euros have a lock on some secret formula for exceptional fit and handling. So don't think the Americans are behind in that department either.

[lnomalley]

troll of the month!

[amg]

what Peter said.

[e-RICHIE]

what lnomalley said

[jerk]

you know what? that's bullshi'ite....colnago, pinarello and derosa get it. the jerk can count on one hand the amount of american builders who do, and none of them produce any where near the amount of frames those three do. they build race bikes...they give to the sport and develop their bicycles in accordance with its needs....say what you will, but a pinarello dogma is a hundred times the bicycle anything brian bayless or artless spunk ever touched. calling them out is like saing ferrari can't build a race car. and getting all hot and wet about something on the cover of rat rod and lowrider magazine... you do not know what you are talking about.

btw imho bro, a frame with a chased bb is an insult to any local bike shop! that's the shops job not the frame builder's.


jerk

[bluesea]

And geometry is geometry; it's not like the euros have a lock on some secret formula for exceptional fit and handling.

Peter,
I want a bike that handles exactly like a Colnago. Where can I get something like this built in the U.S.?

[David Kirk]

.

btw imho bro, a frame with a chased bb is an insult to any local bike shop! that's the shops job not the frame builder's.


jerk

I was with you up to this point. I think when the frame leaves the builders hands it should be ready to hang parts on. I think a mechanic should hang parts on the frames and not "finish" or "modify" them.

Dave

[Climb01742]

There is NO comparison. The small scale American builders beat the Italians hands-down with regard to machining, alignment, finish, chroming, and lug filing, where applicable. Why, even the "lowly" ( I respect the Waterford marquee) Gunnar line shows superior workmanship and finish compared to the eye-talians.

A simple peek into the BB of respective frames shows the lack of care the Italians take in frame assembly. The lack of cleanliness is plainly evident. American builders also take great pride in their paint finishes, and it shows whether it be powder coating or wet paint.

Where the Italians have it over the U.S. is in the STYLE department. I think Colnago, Bianchi, and DeRosa, to name a few, have a flair for graphics and color schemes which is always stylish.

And the Italian frames are way over-priced. Shop around for some of the smaller domestic American builders and you will find VERY attractive pricing and still get the care of assembly and attention to detail that even the major names in the industry provide.

If you're interested in who in ITALY is making the highest quality machines right now, I'd say Pegoretti has earned a reputation and here again, note his funky, if not whimsical finishes-a true flair for style and it shows he has a sense of humor. I also respect Chairman Bill and his Torelli/Mondonico line. Casati, by the way, did get a very positive write up in VeloNews in the past year or two. Look it up in the back issues.

And geometry is geometry; it's not like the euros have a lock on some secret formula for exceptional fit and handling. So don't think the Americans are behind in that department either.

i wasn't aware that pride of workmanship and craft were exclusively american traits.

[cs124]

i wasn't aware that pride of workmanship and craft were exclusively america traits.

the way i read it there's a couple of angles at play here...the opinion, that you so rightly question, that only american's take (sufficient?) pride in their workmanship... and also the equally erroneous opinion that americans are only interested in the tangible aspects of, well, anything really...

check pm

[Dr. Doofus]

the taiwanese

[Grant McLean]

There is NO comparison. The small scale American builders beat the Italians hands-down with regard to machining, alignment, finish, chroming, and lug filing, where applicable. Why, even the "lowly" ( I respect the Waterford marquee) Gunnar line shows superior workmanship and finish compared to the eye-talians.

A simple peek into the BB of respective frames shows the lack of care the Italians take in frame assembly. The lack of cleanliness is plainly evident. American builders also take great pride in their paint finishes, and it shows whether it be powder coating or wet paint.

Where the Italians have it over the U.S. is in the STYLE department. I think Colnago, Bianchi, and DeRosa, to name a few, have a flair for graphics and color schemes which is always stylish.

And the Italian frames are way over-priced. Shop around for some of the smaller domestic American builders and you will find VERY attractive pricing and still get the care of assembly and attention to detail that even the major names in the industry provide.

If you're interested in who in ITALY is making the highest quality machines right now, I'd say Pegoretti has earned a reputation and here again, note his funky, if not whimsical finishes-a true flair for style and it shows he has a sense of humor. I also respect Chairman Bill and his Torelli/Mondonico line. Casati, by the way, did get a very positive write up in VeloNews in the past year or two. Look it up in the back issues.

And geometry is geometry; it's not like the euros have a lock on some secret formula for exceptional fit and handling. So don't think the Americans are behind in that department either.

I think your comments only apply to steel frames. But despite the fact the
Italians largely gave up on steel for the most part in the late '90s, DeRosa
neoprimato and Peg Marcelo are very nice steel frames from the major
Italian houses that stills sells well(ish) in the USA. Colnago steel frames
are one of the least expensive in their line.

If Pinarello or DeRosa, or Bianchi for that matter made lugged steel frames
that cost +$4000 like their carbon top-o-the-line frames, don't you think
they could be finished as well as any? But for the most part, the finish
quality has nothing to do with actual "quality" and you can't tell how
straight, well brazed (at temperature) stress-free or long lasting a frame
will be by looking at it. Clean shorelines is no indicator of quality, it just
looks nice.

-g

[e-RICHIE]

no one in the states makes what "the Italian manufacturers like Colnago, Casati, Ciocc and Pinarello, to name a few..." make. these marques each produce 5-10 thousand frames a year - well, maybe casati makes less. the fact is there is no standard by which to compare high production factories with 1-2 man shops. we don't do or make what they make and they don't do or make what we make. i wrote "do" twice; heh heh-heh. you should buy with your heart, not with your head, unless ducati is in the equation. the engine makes all the difference in the world. in a blind taste test, i'd say the producer with the most experience wrt years/output ought to be able to spec a mighty fine rig, so i am not that quick to blaspheme the european product simply because it is generally "not as well crafted" as something from a guy working on one frame at a time. atafj.

[jerk]

what e-richie said. which is what the jerk said, except the jerk picked on people who finish their frames out of malicious spite and humour. as an aside, serotta is probably the closest thing to an american version of the mentioned italian marques imho bro. cheers!

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

what e-richie said. which is what the jerk said, except the jerk picked on people who finish their frames out of malicious spite and humour. as an aside, serotta is probably the closest thing to an american version of the mentioned italian marques imho bro. cheers!

jerk


atafj atmo. cheers!

[Grant McLean]

AMERICAN or ITALIAN craftsmanship?
I am wondering how the American micro-builder craftsmanship compares with the Italian manufacturers like Colnago, Casati, Ciocc and Pinarello, to name a few. I wish to compare steel frames with steel frames, although the Casati I have been eyeballing has a carbon rear triangle, seat post and forks.
When it comes to Italian, which manufactures design and create the highest quality machines?

As the E-meister wrote, it's a difficult comparasion for many reasons.
By looking only at steel, that'd be like comparing full size SUV's from
America and Japan. Japan doesn't really "do" huge SUV's like American
companies do. Does Japan do other vehicles well?

Not to compare Japan cars to the Italian bike industry, but what Italy is
building best is race bikes, and race bikes generally aren't steel. Is the
"craftsmanship" of a pinarello dogma less than an american steel bike?
I don't think so. Is a DeRosa king a sloppy mess? no it's not. Is a Bianchi
FGlite a hack job? No. There are beautiful Italian bikes, just not that
many high end steel ones.

-G

[e-RICHIE]

As the E-meister wrote, it's a difficult comparasion for many reasons.
By looking only at steel, that'd be like comparing full size SUV's from
America and Japan. Japan doesn't really "do" huge SUV's like American
companies do. Does Japan do other vehicles well?

Not to compare Japan cars to the Italian bike industry, but what Italy is
building best is race bikes, and race bikes generally aren't steel. Is the
"craftsmanship" of a pinarello dogma less than an american steel bike?
I don't think so. Is a DeRosa king a sloppy mess? no it's not. Is a Bianchi
FGlite a hack job? No. There are beautiful Italian bikes, just not that
many high end steel ones.

-G


the E-meister agrees with the G-meister
and both agree with the J-meister atafj.

[Dr. Doofus]

non-issue of the month

if it rides well and handles well its a well-made bike

[e-RICHIE]

non-issue of the month

if it rides well and handles well its a well-made bike

a doofus koan?

[Dr. Doofus]

clear the mind, follow the legs

[Grant McLean]

the E-meister agrees with the G-meister
and both agree with the J-meister atafj.

Richie-issimo,

BTW, your steel bikes are real race bikes. There is no reason
you can't make a nice race bike from steel, as you well know.
I didn't want anyone to think that I was saying that.

-g

[Karbon]

This is a retired Goldsmith finish filing the welds on my steel frame, who says Italians aren't fine craftsmen? :butt:

[e-RICHIE]

This is a retired Goldsmith finish filing the welds on my steel frame, who says Italians aren't fine craftsmen? :butt:


is that a rhetorical question iirc?

[Grant McLean]

This is a retired Goldsmith finish filing the welds on my steel frame, who says Italians aren't fine craftsmen? :butt:

Is he going to put a seat tube in there?

-g

[e-RICHIE]

Is he going to put a seat tube in there?

-g


all that glitters isn't gold.

[97CSI]

Truly excellent machines from both sides of the Atlantic. Great quality and design from many builders in the U.S. and Italy. Best riding new bikes I've owned in the past six years (includes Serotta & Dean) have been my Italian made Scapin (have three and now imported by KHS). But, I will never be without at least one Paramount on which I do about half of my riding.

[Peter]

Peter,
I want a bike that handles exactly like a Colnago. Where can I get something like this built in the U.S.?

Just take the spec sheet for your favorite Colnago and hand it to the American builder of your choice. Ignoring any influence tube SHAPE might have on handling (which is inconsequential at best), you're done.

[Peter]

I think your comments only apply to steel frames.
-g

Without meaning to be rude-yes; my comments apply only to steel frames. That's specifically what the poster was inquiring about.

[ergott]

Just take the spec sheet for your favorite Colnago and hand it to the American builder of your choice. Ignoring any influence tube SHAPE might have on handling (which is inconsequential at best), you're done.

My Ottrott = 53cm Colnago geo.

[tigersnkoi]

I just wanted to send out a THANK YOU to everyone who responded to my question. Being new to the sport I am attempting to play catch-up by learning as much as I can before commiting to spend several thousand hard earned dollars on my first road bike in nearly ten years. It's easy to see why so many of you ride more than one machine or end up becoming "collectors." :beer:

[Serpico]

dude, go talk to Ashley B. at Cycles Unlimited

good luck

[Karbon]

Is he going to put a seat tube in there?

-g

Yes, a Columbus carbon one.

[Grant McLean]

Just take the spec sheet for your favorite Colnago and hand it to the American builder of your choice. Ignoring any influence tube SHAPE might have on handling (which is inconsequential at best), you're done.

No self respecting builder should do what you are suggesting.
Buy a colnago if you want something that rides like a Colnago.
If you get fitted for a custom bike by an American steel builder,
talk to them about what you want, they will make you happy.

There are things about Colnago geometry you can improve upon,
like a lower bb and not shoving a 43mm fork on everysize.

just my $0.02, feel free to ingore it.

-g

[Dr. Doofus]

that's a nice way to treat a custom craftsman:

"here, I really respect your workmanship, but I think in my recreational rider's opinion that your geometry is wack...here's the colnago chart"


*pimpslap*

[David Kirk]

No self respecting builder should do what you are suggesting.
Buy a colnago if you want something that rides like a Colnago.
If you get fitted for a custom bike by an American steel builder,
talk to them about what you want, they will make you happy.

There are things about Colnago geometry you can improve upon,
like a lower bb and not shoving a 43mm fork on everysize.

just my $0.02, feel free to ingore it.

-g

Werd up squared.

Dave

[jerk]

that's a nice way to treat a custom craftsman:

"here, I really respect your workmanship, but I think in my recreational rider's opinion that your geometry is wack...here's the colnago chart"


*pimpslap*


what if you respect colnago's ability to properly design a racing bike more than you respect said custom craftsman? it's the builder's perogative whether or not they want to build it.....

the jerk knows a guy who loves his c40 better than all the other bikes he has, and he has many. he wanted a titanium bicycle with no decals so he could use it on charity rides and not chip the paint on his c40. he asked that it be exactly like his c40.

a smallish frame builder agreed to do it; but warned the jerk and the guy that with that geometry it would "ride like shi'ite." the guy in question asked the jerk if this was true. the jerk replied, "does your c40 ride like crap?"

he went for it, they built it and he likes it better than his c40...because he doesn't have to worry about it getting scratched. by the way, it rides the same as his c40, except its titanium, its made by some local heros and the finish work is nicer.

jerk

[Dr. Doofus]

doof would say get a steel colnago, but that's why he's a doof

[jerk]

No self respecting builder should do what you are suggesting.
Buy a colnago if you want something that rides like a Colnago.
If you get fitted for a custom bike by an American steel builder,
talk to them about what you want, they will make you happy.

There are things about Colnago geometry you can improve upon,
like a lower bb and not shoving a 43mm fork on everysize.

just my $0.02, feel free to ingore it.

-g


you kids have alot more faith in the ability of "the american steel builder" than the jerk does.

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

yo i'm inclined to think a colnago works like a colnago,
despite its geometry. the entire gestalt of tube type and
configuration as well as how many hundreds were made
that week using the same pre-heaters and automated
equipment - all of it is part of that ride experience.
the sequence of assembly, the tepmerature range, the
tolerances - all these elements come into play.

well - that's all i wanted to add. have a nice day iirc.

[Grant McLean]

what if you respect colnago's ability to properly design a racing bike more than you respect said custom craftsman? it's the builder's perogative whether or not they want to build it.....

the jerk knows a guy who loves his c40 better than all the other bikes he has, and he has many. he wanted a titanium bicycle with no decals so he could use it on charity rides and not chip the paint on his c40. he asked that it be exactly like his c40.

a smallish frame builder agreed to do it; but warned the jerk and the guy that with that geometry it would "ride like shi'ite." the guy in question asked the jerk if this was true. the jerk replied, "does your c40 ride like crap?"

he went for it, they built it and he likes it better than his c40...because he doesn't have to worry about it getting scratched. by the way, it rides the same as his c40, except its titanium, its made by some local heros and the finish work is nicer.

jerk

J-man,

Colnago's are supposed to be race bred bikes for kickin' a$$ and takin'
names.C-40's aren't cool until they get all scratched, so i'd tell him to
lighten up and ride his c-40 if he likes it. When he's done with it, send it
to JB and get it refinished and hang it up.

I've got a c-40 b-stay, and it's a good race bike, that handles kinda slow,
and has a bb about 1 cm too high, so if I were having a custom ti bike built,
I'd get the bb lowered, and add some rake. But that's just me. IMHO,
my $0.02, discard after expiration date...

-g

[Grant McLean]

you kids have alot more faith in the ability of "the american steel builder" than the jerk does.

jerk

how about these guys?

www.serotta.com

I hear they make good bikes.

-g

[manet]

apologies _ wrong forum.

[jerk]

J-man,

Colnago's are supposed to be race bred bikes for kickin' a$$ and takin'
names.C-40's aren't cool until they get all scratched, so i'd tell him to
lighten up and ride his c-40 if he likes it. When he's done with it, send it
to JB and get it refinished and hang it up.

I've got a c-40 b-stay, and it's a good race bike, that handles kinda slow,
and has a bb about 1 cm too high, so if I were having a custom ti bike built,
I'd get the bb lowered, and add some rake. But that's just me. IMHO,
my $0.02, discard after expiration date...

-g


word. the jerk never said this dude was all that practical. and the jerk agrees with you that colnago ain't the end all be all but the jerk really liked his c50. but it was a custom so there goes all that nonsense anyway.

jerk

[jerk]

how about these guys?

www.serotta.com

I hear they make good bikes.

-g


yeah those guys can weld some pipes imho. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)


back to the whole racing improves the breed thing redux....you guys know the deal. check the archives.

[jerk]

yo i'm inclined to think a colnago works like a colnago,
despite its geometry. the entire gestalt of tube type and
configuration as well as how many hundreds were made
that week using the same pre-heaters and automated
equipment - all of it is part of that ride experience.
the sequence of assembly, the tepmerature range, the
tolerances - all these elements come into play.

well - that's all i wanted to add. have a nice day iirc.


the jerk thought it had to de woth how many lucky charms were engraved, painted, impregnated and/or stuck on the thing...damn the jerk learns something new everday.


jerk

[e-RICHIE]

the jerk thought it had to de woth how many lucky charms were engraved, painted, impregnated and/or stuck on the thing...damn the jerk learns something new everday.


jerk


yo if six people baked a cake using the same
recipe, you'd have 6 different cakes. atafj.

[jerk]

yo if six people baked a cake using the same
recipe, you'd have 6 different cakes. atafj.


yeah,
but you take that bus you get there imho.

[jerk]

yo if six people baked a cake using the same
recipe, you'd have 6 different cakes. atafj.


what if roy munson made the cake? what about then huh? could he have two cakes and eat them both?

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

what if roy munson made the cake? what about then huh? could he have two cakes and eat them both?

jerk

you idiot - we'd still need 4 more bakers rotc. cheers :beer:

[Grant McLean]

yo if six people baked a cake using the same
recipe, you'd have 6 different cakes. atafj.

hopefully at least one would be "Vanilla"

-g

[jerk]

you idiot - we'd still need 4 more bakers rotc. cheers :beer:


man.

now the jerk is really confused. so if a train leaves from halifax going 47km/h and a train leaves from boston going 53km/h what time are the hockey fights on and who picks up the high-life for the ferry ride?

jerk

[DarkStar]

I was with you up to this point. I think when the frame leaves the builders hands it should be ready to hang parts on. I think a mechanic should hang parts on the frames and not "finish" or "modify" them.

Dave
Have to go with Dave here. As a bike wrench in the early eighties the 'nagos that came through the shop were less than impressive in their workmanship when put up against the De Rosa, Gios, and Ciocc frames that I built up.

[ClutchCargo]

. . . btw imho . . .


jerk

a humble opinion from jerk-issimo ?! (I dunno ... I'm not buyin' it) ;)

[sspielman]

I really hate these broad generalisations like this thread suggests. The suggestion is that ALL American frames are on the same level....and the same is suggested for the Italian products. Somehow, Colnago has been nominated as the gold standard of the Italian framebuilders. IMHO, save for the top carbon products, the only thing that Colnago leads in is in providing a very mediocre frame for the cost. colnago's better carbon products are quality leaders because that is the niche that they have created for themselves....and are putting all of their resources into ensuring that they continue to be leaders in that field. Their other products largely trade on their name, much in the same way that Schwinn did for years. The average Italian custom framebuilder builds more frames than their American counterpart because their market is generally larger. Their market also generally demands more modern materials. The whole argument of who is the better craftsman is meaningless if there is no market for the product.

[e-RICHIE]

The average Italian custom framebuilder builds more frames than their American counterpart because their market is generally larger
i can't think of more than 3 italian marques that can
be the overseas equal of what happens in the states.
Their market also generally demands more modern materials.
the materials are not what the issue revolves around. it's
the efficiency of assembly; all those guys that you think
are custom builders are not cystom builders, they are factories,
and they choose materials and assembly techniques that allow
for the market to grow (buy a new bike even though the old
one hasn't worn out) and allows the marque to prosper (what -
we can't make money with steel anymore? let's try something else.)

The whole argument of who is the better craftsman is meaningless if there is no market for the product.
i'm always intrigued when a factory, assembly-line product
is seen as being "crafted". i know it is to an extent, i just
wonder if we're on the same page...

[sspielman]

i'm always intrigued when a factory, assembly-line product
is seen as being "crafted". i know it is to an extent, i just
wonder if we're on the same page...

I think that we are, but I need to clarify myself.....
I don't consider Colnago's offerings to be a "craftsman"-type product....no more than I consider Bianchi's....On the other hand, there are shops like Podium (Carrera) who devote a significant portion of their production to custom frames. One can go to their shop for a fitting and have them produce a custom frame in steel, aluminum, or carbon (the material being completely immaterial other than wht is demanded by the market). The quality will compare very favorably with what is available anywhere else, and only two or three people will touch the product from beginning to end....no assembly line, limited mechanisation. It is not one person, but I consider the product to much more akin to that type of operation than to something produced by Giant.....

[OldDog]

you should buy with your heart, not with your head.



'nuff said.

[e-RICHIE]

I think that we are, but I need to clarify myself.....
I don't consider Colnago's offerings to be a "craftsman"-type product....no more than I consider Bianchi's....On the other hand, there are shops like Podium (Carrera) who devote a significant portion of their production to custom frames. One can go to their shop for a fitting and have them produce a custom frame in steel, aluminum, or carbon (the material being completely immaterial other than wht is demanded by the market). The quality will compare very favorably with what is available anywhere else, and only two or three people will touch the product from beginning to end....no assembly line, limited mechanisation. It is not one person, but I consider the product to much more akin to that type of operation than to something produced by Giant.....

agreed. but less than 4 people here know about that
stuff or can lay claim to witnessing it first hand. how
can we discuss something when know one else knows
about it?

[cpg]

This is a retired Goldsmith finish filing the welds on my steel frame, who says Italians aren't fine craftsmen? :butt:


I mean no offense but if that's what he's doing, that's called cheating. Maybe he's doing something else? What's the brand name?

Curt

[Darrell]

I was with you up to this point. I think when the frame leaves the builders hands it should be ready to hang parts on. I think a mechanic should hang parts on the frames and not "finish" or "modify" them.

Dave

I am with Dave on this one for many reasons.

[jerk]

dude-

if nothing else, if ones lbs has a campy tool set and someone who knows how to use it, it means its a shop one can comfortably buy a $4000 bike from....think of it like a test or something....honestly the jerk doesn't give a shi'ite...a nice frame will a nice bike make regardless of the state of the bb threads.

jerk

[Karbon]

I mean no offense but if that's what he's doing, that's called cheating. Maybe he's doing something else? What's the brand name?

Curt


Sorry, my bad, he was cleaning up the ends of the seat tube after cutting the center section out of it.

It's a Paduano frame.

[Grant McLean]

dude-

if nothing else, if ones lbs has a campy tool set and someone who knows how to use it, it means its a shop one can comfortably buy a $4000 bike from....think of it like a test or something....honestly the jerk doesn't give a shi'ite...a nice frame will a nice bike make regardless of the state of the bb threads.

jerk

I'm with the jerk on this one. what's the big deal about facing a headset
or a bb? You want the builder to trim the steerer tube length too?
Maybe test your pizza before you bite it, just incase it's too hot?

If your LBS doesn't know an unprepped bb thread when they see it,
or doesn't have the knowedge and tools to deal with it, maybe it's best
to find another shop....

Ok, so sure, the builder _should_ want to do these things themselves,
I've got nothing against that. But if the tradition of the builder is to
leave that for the shop to do, I can't really argue with that, given that
everyone knows what the deal is, and there is no surprises.


G

[tigersnkoi]

that's a nice way to treat a custom craftsman:

"here, I really respect your workmanship, but I think in my recreational rider's opinion that your geometry is wack...here's the colnago chart"


*pimpslap*


Dr "D", you have to be about the funniest poster on this board. I for one truly enjoy reading your words of wit, tongue in cheek as they may be. On the other hand, you have certainly made your case with your above statement. :argue:

Dragonsnkoi@sbcglobal.net

[tkachuk1]

I have a Colnago and hands down the best ride I have ever owned. I am a clydsdale to boot!

[Erik.Lazdins]

I just wanted to send out a THANK YOU to everyone who responded to my question. Being new to the sport I am attempting to play catch-up by learning as much as I can before commiting to spend several thousand hard earned dollars on my first road bike in nearly ten years. It's easy to see why so many of you ride more than one machine or end up becoming "collectors." :beer:


I see your in Springfield - Cycles Unlimited is a great shop - a class operation. If you go today, dress warm the test ride could be chilly!

[97CSI]

Well.......as his post was almost two years ago, hopefully he's made it over there by now. :D

[Michael Maddox]

I was thinking, "Man, this thread looks familiar."

Way to mine the old threads!

[Ahneida Ride]

Tiger ....

Take a tour of the Serotta factory and then formulate your own opinion.

[alancw3]

I was with you up to this point. I think when the frame leaves the builders hands it should be ready to hang parts on. I think a mechanic should hang parts on the frames and not "finish" or "modify" them.

Dave
i agree 100%!!!

[Ti Designs]

Hey, what about french craftsmanship???

[michael white]

whether or not a bb needs to be chased strikes me as, well, completely insignificant, unless I were a custom builder in Montana who takes great pride in getting every detail right, then I might differ.

as far as the Italians go, they invented cool. If you don't know that, you ain't been there.

[TMB]

...... french craftsmanship???

????????????????????????????

[97CSI]

Hey, what about french craftsmanship???Guessing you don't get out much (wine & food). Or automobiles or planes or nuclear power plants or............... All the countries of Europe and the developed world have excellent engineering and craftsman. That they don't have a 'cottage industry' in bicycle frames takes nothing away from that.

[14max]

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[e-RICHIE]

Which marquee names?
dario peg, darren crisp, and fratelli sullegio atmo.

[14max]

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