phil wood BB question

[AngryScientist]

just got a nice phil wood BB to go with a crank a nice forum member sold me.

question: the cups come with thread locking clear liquid. do i really need to use that? i've been using only grease on bottom brackets for years, never thread locker, why is phil recommending this stuff? english threaded BB by the way.

thoughts?

[bicycletricycle]

They work fine with just grease

[witcombusa]

just got a nice phil wood BB to go with a crank a nice forum member sold me.

question: the cups come with thread locking clear liquid. do i really need to use that? i've been using only grease on bottom brackets for years, never thread locker, why is phil recommending this stuff? english threaded BB by the way.

thoughts?


Because the Phil cups are "floating", which allows you to adjust your chainline. But there is no lock ring on what would be the adj. cup (non drive) as well as no flange to tighten against on the "fixed" drive side. So the thread locker just keeps thing in place for trouble free cycling :banana:

[R2D2]

I have always followed Phil Wood's instructions and used it so I know no better.
I believe most of the rings are Teflon impregnated to begin with to prevent any binding/galling so grease doesn't add much to the party.
And totally agree with above comment.

[adampaiva]

i've installed Phil bb's both with the threadlock and with just a little grease and never had anything move around but witcombusa's correct. I'd put it on. You won't have trouble removing the cups later if that is what you are concerned about.

[cogclog]

The thread lock liquid will also act as an anti-corrosive. Better to use what Phil recommends and witcombusa nailed why right on the head. I've installed dozens of these at my shop - many were on winter bikes and I have never seen an issue with seizing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bigbill]

Always follow what Phil Wood says. I've got a ten year old 103mm PW bottom bracket that I've sent back for rebuild four times. My commute time in Hawaii and the PNW took a toll on the seals. Each time I sent the lock rings back with it so they could be cleaned and reconditioned and PW always sent a new tube of blue thread lock.

[donevwil]

Use the Loctite for insurance.

[oldpotatoe]

just got a nice phil wood BB to go with a crank a nice forum member sold me.

question: the cups come with thread locking clear liquid. do i really need to use that? i've been using only grease on bottom brackets for years, never thread locker, why is phil recommending this stuff? english threaded BB by the way.

thoughts?

In 20 some years doing Phil BBs, I have never used glue. Lotsa grease, including between BB and cups and ideally 2 tools but in any case, TIGHT.

Never had them come loose, including the 'far superior Italian threading, never 'ruined a bearing' either.

In customers bikes as well as my Moots and Merckx.

Highly recommend making sure threads are chased to ensure the threads are parallel as well.

And dry spindle, some nervous and jerky about that too.

[witcombusa]

Here it is right from Phil's site;


"Apply the thread locking compound, supplied with the mounting rings, to the threads on each mounting ring. Thread the rings into the
bottom bracket shell and onto the cartridge, placing them in the positions measured during the spindle alignment procedure. With the
mounting ring wrench, apply approximately 25 ft-lbs of torque to secure the rings against the cartridge."

https://www.philwood.com/philpdfs/crankbearinginstallationguide.pdf

[regularguy412]

In 20 some years doing Phil BBs, I have never used glue. Lotsa grease, including between BB and cups and ideally 2 tools but in any case, TIGHT.

Never had them come loose, including the 'far superior Italian threading, never 'ruined a bearing' either.

In customers bikes as well as my Moots and Merckx.

Highly recommend making sure threads are chased to ensure the threads are parallel as well.

And dry spindle, some nervous and jerky about that too.

^^ This. At least for me.

I sweat a lot. I don't need the additional possible issue of bi-metal welding due to a salt water environment to go along with any Locktite problem. (Aluminum rings -- steel BB shell) I've used teflon tape and/or anti-sieze , both with good results and no loosening. I own 2 Phil BBs. The bearings will last approx. 30,000 miles. When I've sent the BBs in for bearing replacement, I've also sent the rings. Phil replaces the bearings and sends back a new set of mount rings. Cost with shipping is approx $40.00.

Mike in AR:beer:

[witcombusa]

I never use the alu rings, always the SS. For the few grams you may save it's not worth it. Sometimes more, is more.

[Mark McM]

Because the Phil cups are "floating", which allows you to adjust your chainline. But there is no lock ring on what would be the adj. cup (non drive) as well as no flange to tighten against on the "fixed" drive side. So the thread locker just keeps thing in place for trouble free cycling :banana:

That's an incorrect description. There is no lockring on the left (or right) cups because they tighten down directly against cartridge shell. In a sense, the two cups tighten against each other, with the shell in the middle. Thus, if tightened properly, no loctite is required to hold the cups in place.

[witcombusa]

That's an incorrect description. There is no lockring on the left (or right) cups because they tighten down directly against cartridge shell. In a sense, the two cups tighten against each other, with the shell in the middle. Thus, if tightened properly, no loctite is required to hold the cups in place.


The folks at Phil Wood know nothing, I'm sure you're right...:rolleyes:

[oldpotatoe]

The folks at Phil Wood know nothing, I'm sure you're right...:rolleyes:

Ask NSA, they'll know, I promise you.

[bfd]

That's an incorrect description. There is no lockring on the left (or right) cups because they tighten down directly against cartridge shell. In a sense, the two cups tighten against each other, with the shell in the middle. Thus, if tightened properly, no loctite is required to hold the cups in place.

I'm not sure this is right. Unlike say a Shimano UN-xx bb, the PW bb cups do not sit on shoulder on the bb. So they do tighten against the cartridge shell. But, if you don't use loctite, the cups can come loose. I installed a PW into my Calfee with italian cups with grease and no loctite. I didn't use a torque wrench, but I'm pretty sure I used more than 25 ft-lb to tighten it.

Sure enough, about 15 miles into my first ride, the right cup started coming loose and the crank started moving to the right. Luckily, I was near my LBS and $25 later, it was taken out, cleaned and reinstalled using loctite. Add in the fact that PW supplies a tube of blue loctite with the cup and I'm pretty sure it is required. Of course, you may be a better mechanic than me, so as always, YMMV! :eek::banana::butt::confused:

[jvp]

^ Same here - had a phil installed on my merckx 7/11 by a pro mechanic, but I guess he hadn't encountered this combo before. I watched him tork down hard. First real ride the right side started working out. I soft pedaled home, used both teflon tape and blue locktite (two is better than one right?), installed myself and have not had any problems since.

[Mark McM]

Well, it is undeniable that the reason there is no lockring is because "cup" tightens against cartridge shell. So the question is whether Loctite is required to keep it from loosening. In my personal experience, I've been using Phil Wood BBs for about 10 years, usually with aluminum "cups", in both steel and titanium frames, and I have never had one loosen when installed with only grease on the threads.

As far as what Phil Wood recommends - when I pointed out that Phil Wood also recommends greasing the flats on square taper BBs, everyone here told me that the Phil Wood was just plain wrong. So, can Phil Wood be right in one place and wrong in the other? And if so, how do we know which is which?

[MerckxMad]

I think you ignore the loctite suggestion at your peril. At least I did. Two scary experiences on my Botecchia with Campy cranks was enough to convince me.

[bicycletricycle]

I have ridden dozens of Phil wood bottom brackets tens of thousands of miles on grease alone. I have installed many more than that in customer bikes and have never had one come loose (maybe they all died out on the road when their bottom brackets came loose) I guess it really doesn't matter in the end but it is okay to not follow the directions, in bicycle maintenance and in life :)

Never grease the taper.


I think u need two bottom bracket tools, long wrenches, muscles and nicely machined threads for this to work. Maybe the loctite compensates for the lack of one or more of these things.


Normally you guys do whatever old potatoe says, why no love on this?

[Ralph]

I'm always fooling around with a square taper BB. Currently have an old Athena BB in one of my bikes, and it works same as PW, both cups tighten against the cartridge body. Just used grease, snugged both cups to about 30 ft lbs, and it hasn't come loose. But it is English threaded. That makes a big difference.

To me....one of the nice features of the PW type cartridge BB's is the ability to move the chain line around a tad. While I hate to take square taper arms off more than necessary, I wouldn't use even blue Loctite until I knew for certain if I would be changing it after arms are on. With the "far superior" Italian threading, or if i had a shell not faced well (couldn't TQ the cups much without a bind), etc, might use the Loctite first time. Just depends. BTW....I'm not a shop, so I can play around with my stuff without blaming anyone but myself.

[dhalbrook]

Never had an issue with the Phil on my Rawland loosening up using grease alone, but I'd be willing to bet that whether or not thread lock is needed is highly dependent on whatever frame its installed in. The Rawland was brand new and the cups were brand new, so the fit was pretty tight to start with. In other cases it may just loosen on its own.

If the thread lock is fairly easy to break later on, then how much could it hurt to use it and play it safe? It's not like most of us ride around with BB tools.

[oldpotatoe]

I have ridden dozens of Phil wood bottom brackets tens of thousands of miles on grease alone. I have installed many more than that in customer bikes and have never had one come loose (maybe they all died out on the road when their bottom brackets came loose) I guess it really doesn't matter in the end but it is okay to not follow the directions, in bicycle maintenance and in life :)

Never grease the taper.


I think u need two bottom bracket tools, long wrenches, muscles and nicely machined threads for this to work. Maybe the loctite compensates for the lack of one or more of these things.


Normally you guys do whatever old potatoe says, why no love on this?

Don't matter to me...

the above is spot on, what I have done for over 25 years...and yes, w/o one of those mentioned things, you may need to glue 'em in there...

[NHAero]

I've used PW BBs for more than 30 years, aluminum and SS cups, in steel and Ti frames with grease and no thread locker. No problems.
I would like to hear more please on why no grease on the tapers...

[oldpotatoe]

I've used PW BBs for more than 30 years, aluminum and SS cups, in steel and Ti frames with grease and no thread locker. No problems.
I would like to hear more please on why no grease on the tapers...

Here we go...Not an engineer or anything but since lubrication has different amounts of slippery-ness, when you torque the crank on, with grease, where it ends up will change. Dry, torque, crank will end up the same place..take one of the variables out BUT don't matter to me.

I have been installing ST cranks on dry spindles for myself and a scad of customers for almost 30 years and haven't had any fall off, get loose of any of that stuff.

Seen a fair number of cranks bottomed out on the BB spindle, most all were installed on greased spindles..anecdotally but...

[zap]

I use a bit of grease on spindle tapers. It settles in a little faster. But I could go either way.

I use al or steel PW cups depending on frame material-though new al cups have the teflon coating so I guess one can use those with any material. I use the supplied thread locking compound as instructed. Never a problem-nor when one set needs disassembling.

By the way, I still use the sweet carbon/ti PW bb. It's that old…...

[Mark McM]

Here we go...Not an engineer or anything but since lubrication has different amounts of slippery-ness, when you torque the crank on, with grease, where it ends up will change. Dry, torque, crank will end up the same place..take one of the variables out BUT don't matter to me.

You have it exactly backwards - lubrication makes friction between surfaces more consistent, so a lubricated spindle will mount to a more repeatable depth than a dry spindle. There's a good reason that dry friction is referred to as "stiction".

[oldpotatoe]

You have it exactly backwards - lubrication makes friction between surfaces more consistent, so a lubricated spindle will mount to a more repeatable depth than a dry spindle. There's a good reason that dry friction is referred to as "stiction".

I guess I stay backwards then....gonna continue to 'do it dry', as I have since 1985.

[NHAero]

I learned lightly greased from Mr. S. Brown himself, back in the day, and a drop of oil on the crank bolts. But that doesn't mean that, as the Dude said, new sh&t hasn't come to light...

[11.4]

Damn, it's been a long winter.

[bikinchris]

Some good advice and some crappy BS on this thread.

Folks, Loctite IS a great anti-seize. besides keeping the cups from coming loose, it will make sure it doesn't stick in the shell when it comes time to remove it. Use the Loctite. Use all of it. Ignore people who don't know what it does.

[oldpotatoe]

Damn, it's been a long winter.

yup..tubular vs clincher anyone, maybe a helmet thread to bring spring into season..